NYT: Some Democrats Believe the Party Should Get Religion

[kskiska]

Bested by a Republican campaign emphasizing Christian faith, some Democrats are scrambling to shake off their secular image, stepping up efforts to organize the "religious left" and debating changes to how they approach the cultural flashpoints of same-sex marriage and abortion.

Some call the election a warning. "You can't have everybody who goes to church vote Republican; you just can't," Al From, founder of the Democratic Leadership Council, said last week at a forum on the election.

Religious traditionalists including Dr. Richard Land, president of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission of the conservative Southern Baptist Convention, and Jim Wallis of the liberal evangelical group Sojourners say Democratic officials are calling them for advice on reaching conservative Christians. And they and some other theologically orthodox supporters of Mr. Bush say it may not take much for Democrats to make inroads among their constituency, if the party demonstrates a greater friendliness to religious beliefs and even modestly softens its support for abortion rights.

(SNIP)

Some Democrats worry that the party might bend too far to please religious voters. Representative Jerrold Nadler of New York, a Democrat and a Jew, argued that there was no evidence that more people voted "based on faith" this year than four years ago. If Mr. Bush renews his popular calls for federal financing of social services that hired on the basis of religion, Mr. Nadler contended, Democrats still need to oppose it. "If you use federal funding, you can't discriminate," he said. "We can't compromise on that."

more…
http://nytimes.com/2004/11/17/politics/17democrats.html

[PartyPooper]

1. My Jesus is better than your Jesus!

:eyes:

[VegasWolf]

2. nuh huh, mine is!

[Redleg]

67. That's what it comes down to, isn't it?

People who shove their Jesus into everyone else's faces and those who actually live their faith.

[The Zanti Regent]

3. My Jesus better than your Jesus...

My Jesus better than yours
My Jesus better cause
he's gonna blow the world up
My Jesus better than yours!

(SARCASM MODE NOW OFF)

[Danmel]

20. My G-d's Better Than Your G-d

My G-d's Better than your G-d
My G-d's better than yours
My G-d's better cause He eats Ken-L-Ration
My G-d's Better than yours.

[The Zanti Regent]

24. I forgot that Jesus Saves but Moses Invests....

...I'm sorry!

[muse]

4. As a Christian woman, I totally agree with the statement that

Some call the election a warning. "You can't have everybody who goes to church vote Republican; you just can't," Al From, founder of the Democratic Leadership Council, said last week at a forum on the election.

But, so much of this article focuses on abortion. I guess that is seen as the main sticking point issue, but I am not so sure about that. Maybe I need to get more involved in that dialogue. From my experience as an educator, I don't think girls should have to have parental notification. And the whole thing about partial birth abortion is just plain silly. That's a decision that should be made between a woman and her doctor. Period. It's a medical decision and shouldn't be legislated.

[MARALE]

48. I agree with you

Religion is more than abortion and gay marriage. And I heard some repub talking about making all abortion illegal and make it murder. If the choice was your life or the life of the baby, you could plead self defense and got to court. He was a very stupid man and thought this would be the answer for everything. Could you imagine?

[sandnsea]

63. It's a false premise

Alot of liberals quit going to church because churches got so nutty. Once again, they're letting the right frame the issue and whenever they do that, we lose.

[Redleg]

68. Because one stops attending church does not mean one is no longer

a Christian or religious.

[sundancekid]

79. EGGSACTLY ... when will we EVER learn? ... and, at what more cost?

[Clarkie1]

5. What we need to promote is a spirituality based on our core principles

Such as respect for each other, the environment, inclusiveness as opposed to exclusiveness, ect.

[Forkboy]

6. I'm sure that if they were told killing babies would help them win

that there would be a section of the Dems demanding we adopt the Kill Babies plank.

[Senator Lamb]

9. i see a pattern

conservatives and liberals read different papers that agree with them, watch different shows and channels that support their opinion, read different books, listen to various personalities, see different movies, and now we will have to different interpretations of religion. this is ridiculous

[Sterling]

44. "and now we will have to different interpretations of religion"

You think this is something new?

[Redleg]

99. Sure. You betcha. Whateveryousay.

Uh huh.

[AspenRose]

7. Of course, if you're a Democrat who already *has* "religion,"

then they just try to kick you out of church leadership. So you're damned if you do and damned if you don't....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2706716

ANDOVER -- State Rep. Barbara L'Italien was asked by the pastor of her church, St. Augustine's, to step down as cantor and head of the youth choir because of her pro-choice stance on abortion. L'Italien, a life member of the church, says she refused the requests made by the church's new pastor, the Rev. William M. Cleary.

"I was told that because I am a legislator and a Democrat I was being asked to step down," she said. "This has upset my whole home. I am a pretty unlikely and undeserving target of this." Cleary said this morning his decision to ask her to step down has nothing to do with her party affiliation. Rather, he says, he cannot have someone in a leadership position who is in favor of abortion. "In this particular case we're dealing with a person who is against the church's position," Cleary said. "I can't allow her to be in a public posture -- to be standing up at the pulpit singing or directing singing."

Cleary says he has no problems with L'Italien receiving Communion or working with children "behind the scenes." While he says his decision was not based on her being a Democrat, Cleary did say Democrats, in general, are more inclined to be pro-choice.

[buddysmellgood]

8. We need to get the Catholics back on our side. As a former

alter boy, I say we start by attracting priests. Who runs a Democratic youth group (mostly boys) that we can dangle.

[daleo]

10. The party needs to hire some Diebold programmers

Going off on wild goose chases for religious fundamentalists will probably make things worse. Religious people who value peace and decency will naturally be center or left of center. It is doubtful that the others would ever desert their authoritarian tendencies, unless perhaps the money Republicans don't throw them the odd bone.

[GOPBasher]

28. We "should hire Diebold programmer."

Amen to that! :toast:

[Catfight]

35. Exactly, stack the odds back in our favor. There has to be some hacker

nerds out there who've been laid off by bush's poor policies, you'd think they'd want to join in and join the jedi side.

[SmokingJacket]

72. Heck, buy the companies! Hostile takeover!

Someone suggested that last week -- I love it.

This whole "democrats should become republicans so we can win" stuff is really out of whack.

[Justitia]

11. Some Democrats Believe the Party Should Get A Spine

Al From should get permanently lost :puke:

[Cookie wookie]

12. I'll second that.

The stupid idiots Dems lost because the votes are stolen, DUH, so they decide to fix it by becoming more Republican so they can really loose next time, that is if there is a next time, and that is if the voting problems are fixed (won't happen on with a Republican admin).

All they would ever, ever have to do ever --after they get us back auditable elections and some of the media!!-- is talk and walk the basics of the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Do the right things, the things our founders and the wise men over these 2 plus centuries have stood for, what our troops have died protecting: liberty, equality, justice for all.

If the Dems move more to the right, they can kiss my vote and their assets goodbye; Green Party here I come.

[mulderig]

46. i totally agree....

I think I've always had more in common with the Green's and just supported the Dems as they had a better chance of getting elected than if I voted Green.

If they go Repug lite than they will lose my vote and I suspect the votes of many others.
M.

[Peanut Gallery]

13. Translation:

You Will Be Assimilated.

[IndianaGreen]

14. Perhaps we should have a mass baptism at the 2008 Convention

followed by a mass circumcision, and Santeria rites. Heck, let's honor all the Gawds, from Allah to Zeus!

[vet 65 69]

16. i was baptized in 1963

one reason i don't go to church now is the repugs to see a farmer pray for his crops and forget about the ones who are going hungry in his own county one with large business do the same. one day i hope to see god push one of these ass holes through the eye of a needle

[David Zephyr]

82. Mass Baptism at the 2008 Convention.

But, IndianaGreen, I ask you: are you sure it would be enough?

[IndianaGreen]

85. No, it won't be enough. Their Jesus is the one that sided with the rich

which may explain the strange watering down of the passage about the rich and the eye of the needle that one finds in the modern translations of the Bible. We don't want the people that read the Bible to get funny ideas about taking care of the widow and the orphans, supporting the oppressed, and condemning the rich and powerful.

[David Zephyr]

86. They've Begun Watering Down Jesus Words Re: Possible Homosexuality

You'll love this "watering down" by the Fundies of the New Testament itself.

Jesus, according to the sacred King James Version (KJV):

"I tell you, in that night there will be two MEN in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left." Luke 17:34 (KJV)

Jesus 2004, according to the The New International Version (NIV) as,

"I tell you, on that night two PEOPLE will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left." Luke 17:34 (NIV)

[IndianaGreen]

88. Good find, David. Here are a few others...

I wonder if they have changed the gay subtext in the account about the deep love between King Saul's son Jonathan and the young David...

The Message (MSG):

On that Day, two men will be in the same boat fishing--one taken, the other left.

Amplified Bible (AMP)

I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed; one will be taken and the other will be left.

New Living Translation (NLT)

That night two people will be asleep in one bed; one will be taken away, and the other will be left.

New Life Version (NLV)

I tell you, on that night there will be two men in the same bed. One of them will be taken. The other will be left.

English Standard Version (ESV)

I tell you, in that night there will be two in one bed. One will be taken and the other left.

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

I say to you, In that night, there shall be two men on one couch, the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left;

Darby Translation (DARBY)

I say to you, In that night there shall be two (men) upon one bed; one shall be seized and the other shall be let go.

[David Zephyr]

93. Yes. Jonathan and David

Thanks for the other "versions" of the KJV regarding Jesus' two men in one bed comment.

Of course, I know that you, IG, are very familiar with the story of the love between David and Jonathan, but others here perhaps are not:

I Samuel 20:41 " as soon as the lad was gone, David arose out of toward the south, and fell on his face to the ground, and bowed himself three times: and they (David and Jonathan) kissed one another, and wept one with another, until David exceeded." KJV

2 Samuel 1:26 "I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women." KJV

[IndianaGreen]

96. Had it not been for a gay man, Jesus would not have been born

According to Christian tradition, Jesus comes from the Davidic line (from his mother side). A gay man, Jonathan, saved David's life when King Saul conspired to have David assassinated, and this despite the fact that Jonathan was the royal heir before David was anointed by Samuel. David would not had lived had Jonathan not saved his life. So one could make the reasonable argument that had it not been for a gay man, Jesus would not have been born. No Davidic line. No Mary. No Jesus.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[leftchick]

17. Bested by BBV....

until the Democrats recognize the fraud that was perpetrated yet again in an election they are doomed to failure. No matter how much they pray!

[namvet73]

18. I really think a major part of it is communications and...

a misunderstanding of what liberals are.

I was recently on a trip way up in Maine, driving back on I-95, north of Bangor. There was nothing around for over 100 miles, but I turned on the radio looking for sound to keep me company.

As I tuned, I stopped on this fiery orator barking "LIBERALS ARE MORE DANGEROUS THAN FUNDAMENTALISTS. IT'S LIBERALS YOU'VE GOT TO BE AFRAID OF!" After listening a few minutes, I realized it was none other than the ubiquitous Rush Limbaugh. I didn't recognize him because 1) I rarely listen to him, anyway 2) I'm used to what he sounds like on AM and his voice is clearer on the FM station I found. I couldn't listen for more than 1 minute or so, I was getting nauseous.

Even in the middle of nowhere, he is loud and clear.

These pundits are DESTROYING the reputation of liberals and painting a terrible and incorrect picture of what we are. Never mind changing ourselves, half the country doesn't even know what we are NOW! Just the other day, my own mother told me she listens to Hannity after O'Rielly.

I've tried to debunk the nonsense she dittos from these people, but I, her son, have less credibility than they do.

We can never under estimate the power and influence that these "barkers" had on the election. What to do about them, I am not sure. Air America is a start, but there has to be major growth in this area.

Why should I have to change. My wife and I are liberals with four bibles and attend a Christian church.

The pundits defame us daily, hour after hour. Maybe they should be sued! I don't know.

One thing is for sure. The fairness doctrine needs to be re-instated.
The demise of this doctrine (thanks to Ray-Gun) is very basic to our problems.

See: http://www.museum.tv/archives/etv/F/htmlF/fairnessdoct/fairnessdoct.htm

[bklyncowgirl]

19. More talk of values yes--religion if it's insincere no.

Most liberal religious types that I know are independent thinkers. They're either Democrats already or if they're real purists, third party. As far as moderate religious people, I think that framing arguements in terms of values is good but I warn against politicians who are not religious pretending that they are unless they are willing to invest the time, energy and total lack of truthfulness that one George W. Bush had done to court the religious right.

Remember what happened to Howard Dean, who I believe is a moral but clearly secular guy, decided he just had to talk religion in order to win votes in the south. It was not a pretty sight.

Religious people can spot a phony a mile away--unless he's real good at it.

[Guaranteed]

21. Yes, let's abandon OUR loyal constituency and go after theirs

unsuccessfully.

[Doohickie]

42. YOU JUST DON'T GET IT:

There are many Christians that already part of "your" constituency!

[Guaranteed]

77. Then what's the problem??? nt

[The Flaming Red Head]

22. To thine own voters be true: Voter respect

would be a good place to start

Who says Bush turned out the faithful? I think it was the other way around and the party leadership is disrespecting all those people who waited in line and all those who were turned away.

[Sterling]

47. Exactly, at this point I'm out until they pull me back in.

My vote is no longer promised to this party. They will have to compete for people like me and many others who worked so hard this election against the fundie vote. The more Fundie love the party shows the more money I will send to the Green party.

[Gelliebeans]

74. Exactly my sentiments

its about time the Dems come around to compete for my vote too.

[Tomee450]

92. I'm beginning to

feel the same way. I know all about fundamentalism. It's not for me.

[Catchawave]

23. Fix the voting system first !

Get...rid...of...the...Electoral College, for starters. A National election shouldn't be about 2 or 3 states.

[marew]

25. On Bill Moyers last weekend....

I heard a liberal Catholic nun speak who was excellent. She said two times in the past that certain religious groups tried to put their values on the rest of us were the Salem witch burnings and prohibition. They did work either. (I know I won't be getting close to any bonfires.) She also said that the evangelicals overlook the Beatitudes which instruct us to work for peace and to help the poor, those in need, etc. I, for one, am incredibly proud to be a liberal and always will be. I welcome others ideas and also value those with whom I don't necessarily agree. As liberals, we understand why "God" is not mentioned in the Constitution. I am heterosexual and cannot figure out for the life of me why homosexual marriage is a threat to my marriage. Even evangelical Christians should be able to figure out this was not exactly a big deal with Jesus. He never mentioned homosexuality once! It is mentioned in the old testament but Jesus said he came to fulfill the law. The poor were mentioned frequently. The evangelicals need to show me, for one, how that translates into major tax breaks for the rich and program cuts for the poor. I'm a retired school social worker so I've seen families who don't know where they're next meal is coming from. And this is through no fault of their own. I am truly sick of the greed and Republican hipocracy. Sorry for the rant but I could't help myself.

[leQ]

34. keep on rantin there, marew.... what you said should be put on billboards

n/t

[lefthandedskyhook]

49. She was right on... everyone should see that segment

Here's a transcript (video isn't up yet): http://www.pbs.org/now/transcript/transcript346_full.html



Related tidbits (not from the show):

-Religion loses its essence in the political sphere.
-Compassion is action, not rhetoric.
-Perhaps the greatest lesson of Jesus is "the washing of the feet".

[0007]

26. The left is just as spiritual or more so than the right.

[devinsgram]

27. Man, I can't believe this folks

It's got nothing to do with religion, it's got to do with fraud. We need more fraud. (sarcasm) That's the only way we will win.

[Yavin4]

29. I Propose That We Become Snake Handlers

Any takers?

[blindpig]

71. I got the snakes!

but will accept no responsibility. Could even bring in some special guest snakes so god can really show out.

[American Tragedy]

30. Democrats have referred repeatedly to religion and attended church service

In the debates, Kerry described his own faith more eloquently than any politician I have ever heard.

What the hell more do these people want?

[johnnyrocket]

31. How about EXPOSE THE GOP FOR WHAT THEY ARE!!!

That would be the moral and upstanding thing to do, don't try to out Republican the Republicans, actually BE moral and show sanity, that would be the high road.

[leesa]

32. Wrong, as usual. I say expose their "religion" for the fraud it is.

The Democrats could have easily done this by exposing the lies and corruption and crime within the Republican party, but they choose not too. So, their solution is for us to become Fundies!

[GoddessOfGuinness]

97. You hit the nail on the head....

We're talking about FRAUD here. Foulwell and his cronies are as religious as snake oil peddlers. There's somebody out there that knows the intimate truth about them, who won't be bought off by rethuglican $.

It's a matter of finding them before they have contracts put out on them.

[jmowreader]

33. We need to go back to being Democrats

Remember Democrats? The party of full employment? The party of fair taxation? The party of fiscal responsibility? The party of labor? Of law and order? The party that does not fire a shot in anger unless it must, and then wins the war?

Where the hell did that party go?

Oh god, now we're Republican Lite, we operate so as not to raise the ire of Rush Limbaugh (who makes shit up if he can't find anything to piss him off today) and Pat Robertson (who does likewise). These guys say we're godless, soulless creatures who want everyone to be on welfare and rich people to be taxed one hundred percent, that we're people who want prayer to be banned in churches, that we want to let criminals off scot-free, that we're somehow subhuman.

Let me ask you: if Democrats want everyone to be on welfare, why are almost all labor unions Democratic? If we hate law and order so much, why were police officers traditionally Democrats? (Many of them have changed to Republican, but for many decades cops voted Democratic.)

This is what we must do before we do anything else: become Democrats again. How we're gonna do it is by a political equivalent of locking the fat Vegas Elvis into a room with a phonograph in it and making him listen to all his old records until he remembers what he used to be and goes back to it. We are going to start by examining the lives and careers of 25 great Democrats of the past, and modeling ourselves after them.

I'm going to GD and starting a thread on this right now. Be back in a few...

[Seabiscuit]

87. Agreed. And we not only have to lock "Fat Elvis Vegas" into a room,

we have to rid the Democratic party of his sorry ass.

That means cleaning house ourselves - voting every damned Al From type DLC'er (including John Kerry) out of office and starting over. The DLC has had a stranglehold on our party and has lost far too many elections for far too many years. They are the ones trying to turn us into "Republican Lite" and it's a formula for utter failure, as every election since 1994 has proven.

And someone has to put some masking tape over Bill Clinton's mouth. He's living in the past and what worked for him in the 90's no longer works for our party.

Same goes for Hillary.

[chappaquadem]

36. Using familiar rhetoric

I don't think that democratic "values" really conflict with some of the rhetoric that the fundies are familiar with. We could use the tale of the Good Samaritan for one to show that we need to care about our neighbor and that even Jesus didn't think it was important to go to church or even to believe in God as long as you treated others as you would want to be treated.
A great commercial spot would be to have some guy at a pulpit repeating this parable and juxtapose it with dual screens, one showing the "dem" works and another showing the Repubs disregard (and votes against) helping the poor, etc. with their efforts to help corporations.
Another great one would be using the beatitudes (Blessed are the poor, for they shall inherit the earth, etc.).
Use rhetoric that these moral values people are familiar with and images they can understand and then the message will get across about which party really has "moral values.".

[HeeBGBz]

39. I don't believe in organized religion

I believe in spirituality and personal responsibility.

[Seabiscuit]

89. Like it - when you're "born OK the first time"

who needs to be "born again"???

These dumfuck fundies are just so, so absurd.

[malachi]

37. Religion scares the shit out of me. I don't remember who said it,

but what this person said was "There are always going to be good people that do good things and evil people that do evil things, but it takes religion to get good people to do evil things". If we could just flip a switch and remove religion from our brains the world would be far better off place. Then again, I'm sure we could come up with other reasons to hate each other.

[Seabiscuit]

90. Imagine there's no heaven

It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky

[arwalden]

38. Oh Good Grief!! KEEP RELIGION OUT OF POLITICS...PERIOD...EXCLAMATION POINT

See what it's done to the Republican party? I don't want that shit happening to OUR party.

We don't need more religion. We need LESS!

>> if the party ... modestly softens its support for abortion rights. <<

NO FUCKING WAY!! NO PANDERING!!!

[nolabels]

59. We are victims of our success and we don't need less

Many words were coined to described what we are seeing, pious come to mind for me

Though I doubt non-religious were out-voted at the ballot box I do believe that some religious types understand what kind of powerful change a state operated and mandated efforts can have. Secular government changed the outlook on almost the entire population in a few short decades just most recently in the US.

Many religions can only dream of this kind of power to implement systemic change. Why wouldn't they attempt such, even though it is implicitly stated in the laws that founded this country that this was forbidden to be done. We are all suffering from the same malady, trying to implement change in others through a non-personal apparatus that is divorced of our humanity. The amount we believe in even this possible is the amount we subject ourselves to change from it.

The adage that all politics are personal is never been so profound. It's much more effective in terms of efficiency to change one self in terms of morality (whatever that morality is perceived to be) than to try all of this different apparatus to effect change on others (which personally, I would also would think to be immoral in it's self) :donut:

[LeftHander]

40. Reach out to a diverse swath of Religions

UU's
Buddhists
various Catholics
Methodists
UCC
Many African American Christians, American Muslims, Hindu and all the other ethnic groups...


But forget about changing values to pull those evangelical voters to the party.


Democrats need to face the music and lead from the values shared by the diverse non-Christian evangelical religions. The GOP has those folks locked in goose step.

We won't win for some time. America will slide further into evangelical hell.

Accept it.

[Doohickie]

41. I'll tell you what:

If one discusses religious views around here on DU, merely admitting to practicing Chrisitianity is enough to get several snide comments directed one's way.

While actively advocating the desecularization of the government should be opposed, there is nothing wrong with being a Christian... no more so than being an Atheist, Wiccan, Buddhist, etc.

However, the extreme left doesn't see this. Their reactionary tone alienates them from more moderate Democrats. We are a diverse party, but we should not be this fractured. The radical left needs to realize that more moderate Democrats, including Christians, are on their side and needs to stop villifying them.

[Redleg]

66. Agreed.

There is a small number of DUers who derogate christianity and they should stop lest others derogate their atheism.

[Debs]

81. I am an extreme left christian

I don't know what happened to my Che Guevara icon, but I am waaay left of center and consider myself a religious person, I dont feel attacked or looked down on at any political meeting I attend. There is a fear of fundamentalism and one I think is well founded. I believe religion should be kept out of the government.

[suegeo]

43. Bested by a Republican campaign emphasizing Christian faith??

Hey you democratic party leader fools:

The Republican-owned machines and brownshirt voter intimidation tactics bested you, not a rightwing campaign emphasizing Christian faith.

Besides, the faith that the rightwing professes doesn't look like any Christian faith they tried to teach me when I was young.

If you don't fix the voting machines and eliminate the intimidation at the polls, they'll beat you every time. If I can figure this stuff out, why can't they? It's almost like they're in on it, or something.

[Seabiscuit]

91. Perhaps you're onto something:

"It's almost like they're in on it, or something."

Whey else would they be trying to get us non-politicians to support their creepy Republican Lite agenda?

[Whoa_Nelly]

45. What a stupid headline

It presuposses that Dems are anti-religion and/or pagan.
The line between church and state has all but disappered.

The divisiveness continues...

[mmonk]

50. Dems should "get the constitution"

and not be afraid of it. The win at any cost dem that is so obsessed with why they lost they want to mimic the opposition right or wrong needs to be purged from the party IMO becuase I don't think that the repubs won on religion as much as they won on their tax cut propaganda and the security propaganda.

[dhinojosa]

51. Hmmmm. I wonder what Thomas Jefferson has to say about this.....

Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

[w4rma]

53. That was nearly 220 years ago.

And the debate still rages. That should tell you that maybe it's better not to press the issue so hard.

[dhinojosa]

55. I am not the type to appease.

sorry

[w4rma]

52. A) Al From has the worst soundbites EVER. B) the NYT's headline TWISTS

our point into a farce and even belittles it. In general this is the correct strategy. Guns and religion are most Republican's main problems with the Democratic Party. Retreating some on those issues alows Democrats to fight the more important (and less hot topic issues) better.

And the current Democratic position on gun rights is unwieldable, anyway. Imho, that issue right there, makes Dems look wimpy.

[byronm]

54. We don't need a religion at all

We need to stand by the freedom of religious choice, beliefs and heritage as an american value and not have anything to do with tying our hands to specific religious agendas with regards to anything the federal government does.

We can't think LIKE the repugs, we have to think better, wiser and more thoroughly for we can't base the future of America on faith alone. Thats a gamble i don't think the Democratic party should do and i won't aline with any religious movement on behalf of any party.

[Mist]

56. The Dems need to find out who the god of the black box is

and propitiate him accordingly.

[The Stranger]

57. The Christian Left was a powerful part of the Civil Rights Movement

of the 1960's, but the religion was co-opted by the lowest and most vile set of people (including some criminals) in the 1980's and rearing its ugly head again more recently.

It is high time that the Christian Left start mobilizing, organizing, speaking out, taking back their churches and communities from the heinously misguided right wing.

[PassingFair]

58. The arc of the moral universe...

is long, but it bends toward justice......

It will turn around again, it always does. What is not clear from Dr. King's quote is that reason and reality have everything to do with that "arc".

Folks will get mighty sick waiting for manna when their children are going hungry.

We need to get rid of From and Reed. Pronto.

And you don't need religion, or spirituality for that matter, to be moral or have morals.

Let's go back to something Elizabeth Edwards reminded us of just days ago:

"I want to share something inspiring, part of a letter from Thomas Jefferson. This is from the new Bernstein biography of Jefferson. Jefferson sent the letter in 1798 after the passage of the Sedition Act:"

"A little patience, and we shall see the reign of witches pass over, their spells dissolve, and the people, recovering their true sight, restore their government to its true principles. It is true that in the meantime we are suffering deeply in spirit, and incurring the horrors of a war and long oppressions of enormous public debt. If the game runs sometimes against us at home we must have patience till luck turns, and then we shall have an opportunity of winning back the principles we have lost, for this is a game where principles are at stake."

We will triumph, the tide will turn. We must hold fast to our humanitarian principles, not step into the vortex of dogma and supernatural incentive.

[reprobate]

64. And here's one from Ben Franklin. Not the optimist. The realist.

In these sentiments, Sir, I agree to this Constitution with all its faults, if they are such; because I think a general Government necessary for us, and there is no form of Government but what may be a blessing to the people if well administered, and believe farther that this is likely to be well administered for a course of years, and can only end in Despotism, as other forms have done before it, when the people shall become so corrupted as to need despotic Government, being incapable of any other. I doubt too whether any other Convention we can obtain, may be able to make a better Constitution. For when you assemble a number of men to have the advantage of their joint wisdom, you inevitably assemble with those men, all their prejudices, their passions, their errors of opinion, their local interests, and their selfish views. From such an assembly can a perfect production be expected?

[byronm]

60. What we need is to focus on the fredom of religious rights

and the foundation of humanity that we should strive for as a freedom loving american able to represent the ideology of our nation abroad and accept the different and indifferences we have at home.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

61. "...for advice on reaching conservative Christians."

Pardon my language, but who the fuck wants the conservative Christians.

They are a freak show that have already destroyed one political party -- why on EARTH would we want them to infest the Democrats, a party that stands for freedom of religion and the separation of church and state?

This kind of talk confirms for me that the DLC and their ilk are an attempt by Republicans in Democratic clothes to either destroy the party all together or morph it into the Republican party of old.

Yeegads, where's my signature line when I need it....

FUCK THE DLC AND AL FROM!

[Mountainman]

62. Sure the way to win is to never offer any alternative choices for voters.

Who the hell needs two conservative parties? Liberals will become a party unto themselves in the not too near future I think.

[Redleg]

65. The Democratic party already has religious people.

They just don't shove their Jesus into everyone's fucking face.

[Maven]

69. I don't think this will happen anyway.

They had better know they will lose a lot of their base if there's ANY MORE talk of God in a political context. I'm sure I'm not alone when I say that as a lifelong Democrat, I will devote my efforts to a losing third party for the first time EVER next election if they actually take the bait and nominate some bible-thumping huckster. Watching Kerry go on and on about "the Almighty" was punishment enough.

BTW, did anyone else want to throw pickle juice in Bob Schieffer's face when he asked the question about faith in the last debate? He might as well have said, "Gawrsh, Mr. President, you look lovely today. May I fondle you? Please?"

[Gloria]

70. Message to Al From....GO TO HELL!

I saw him on CSpan with his election post mortem and I had to turn him off.
He made me want to throw up.

This knee jerk reaction to a phony and discredited assessment is not what is needed.

We have to turn the tables on the Repugs by showing their hypocrisy, ie, their "acts" are not "moral" at all. We have to knock them off their pedestal by showing how Democratic "acts" are really more deserving of reward at the voting booth...We don't need to further meld with their crap, because it will be such an obvious political copout and will FAIL!! You are not trying to win the weirdo vote, you just have to solidify your appeal in terms of common sense that reaches those not on the extreme religious edge....

[VegasWolf]

73. Okay, as a start, let's go after the Heven's gate crowd, and nail the ET

vote.

[Ima]

75. This is all a ringer

This isn't about religion, and how Democrats should change. We have plenty of people with religion.


The problem is the media, we are always vilified, no matter what we say or do.


This is all smoke and mirrors. We need the media to be fair to us. And by the way, an honest vote count would be nice.

[Chicago Democrat]

76. Religious Democrats should attempt to bring God into their words

by using non-denominational words such as "creator" "the diety" cautiously but IT CAN BE DONE... We need to set the PROPER EXAMPLE!


LISTEN TO Franklin Roosevelt......

His fireside chats were steeped with non-threatening references to god. Once in a while, we need to make statements about the variety of religious doctrines, BUT THEN DRAW SOME COMMONALITY from them all. This is really hard to do, and even harder to pull off. Bill Clinton did it. Roosevelt did it. In classy cool ways that spoke to the underlying common ethics that permeate all faiths that can really speak to everybody and engage in debate especially our evangelical 'enemies'.

Can we all agree that murder is evil?

Can we all agree that stealing is wrong?

Can we all agree that lying is a sin?


I think we can... I think there is a way...

[EndElectoral]

78. Anyone know the Greens website?

[saskatoon]

80. Compromise?

Hell will freeze over before I pretend that I beleive in that Fairy tale religious bunco.I beleive there was a man called Jesus Christ who was a good man but sure as hell the rest of that crap is baloney.pure and simple

[Brand New Tico]

83. Jesus thinks you're a jerk

That's what I have to say to Republicans who dare to suggest that they are in any way "Christian." They are not. They cannot be by definition. Republicans are the anti-Christ. Each and every last one of them.

[Seabiscuit]

84. "Some Democrats"??? I say, screw THEM!!!

Jerrold Nadler's right.

Screw Al From. He is THE ENEMY!!!

[Merlin]

94. It sure would be smart of us to advertise that Jesus was a liberal.

Exit polls showed a significant percentage of Bush voters nearly voted for Kerry. Most were, no doubt, sincere and good people of faith deeply disturbed by Bush's record.

If we were far less reluctant to invoke the name of Jesus--the man, the liberal--and his unquestionable support for most of our positions, we could sway a significant segment away from the righteous right.

The problem is there is a clear anti-religious zeal among many liberals which translates into hate for believers as well as their beliefs. It is a mark of utter immaturity and intolerance on our part. Are there religious hypocrites? To be sure. But most believers are good and decent human beings who sincerely want to make a better world.

If we can't wake up to that fact, we will continue to go down in flames.

[PassingFair]

95. We need a CLEAR separation of church and state

period.
We are and should remain IMO, a SECULAR country. I think government should avoid "invoking" the name of Jesus at all cost.
That being said, there is nothing that makes me happier than to see a true believer driving around with a "Jesus, the original liberal" or "Who would Jesus Bomb"? Bumper sticker. LOVE those.
Would HATE to see it coming home on my kid's school stuff. Or at the grocery store, or in a county courthouse.

[Merlin]

98. True enough. But I'm not talking government. I'm talking party politics.

And there's absolutely no denying that religion plays a gigantic--even a pivotal role--in party politics.

Haven't seen any of those "Jesus, the original liberal" bumper stickers. But I'd wear one if I had one.

[XemaSab]

101. Republicans

Most republicans I talked to were more disturbed by *'s civil liberties record than anything else. They just went with the devil they knew.....

That was the big missing issue in Kerry's campaign... there was a question about civil liberties and the patriot act during the debates that both candidates glossed over.

So I'm not sure that faith in the Bible is the issue we need to be pressing first and foremost to win wavering republican voters. I worry that might alienate some elements of the base (such as the voters of other faiths or atheists/agnostics) more than mobilize thinking Christians.

However, you're right, we need to start putting our version of Jesus' message out in the public sphere. The Beatitudes are a good start, as another poster on another thread pointed out. Jesus was not a hatemonger, and these fundie folks should be on the defensive about things like the death penalty and cutting social services.

Last week the pastor at my local (very very liberal) church was talking about witnessing of faith, and he admitted that liberal Christians aren't very vocal witnessers. So we've got the fundie crowd making all the noise and defining what it means to be a Christian in the public sphere.

Many, many liberals have had bad experiences with the hating side of the Christian church, and they see these rabid right wing Christians as being opposed to their very being, and they respond in kind: with hatred.

[AgadorSparticus]

100. WTF??? whatever happened to sep. of church and state??

it would be unbelievably hypocritical of us to adopt their MO and push our God--and what god would that be if we have a big tent as so many have profess?

this idea is so insane, it hurts. if we inject religion into our platform, we are no better.