Marines Killed Four Wounded Iraqi Prisoners: US Reporter (Story gets worse

[UpInArms]

http://www.islamonline.org/English/News/2004-11/17/article01.shtml

BAGHDAD, November 17 (IslamOnline.net & News Agencies) – The US pool reporter, who broke to the world the killing of a wounded, unarmed Iraqi prisoner by a marine, further revealed that more prisoners were shot dead though they did not appear threatening in any way.

NBC correspondent Kevin Sites was quoted by the Associated Press Wednesday, November 17, as saying that US Marines killed three more unarmed and wounded Iraqi prisoners in a Fallujah mosque Saturday, November 12.

He added the wounded had been left in the mosque for others to pick up and move to the rear for treatment. No reason was given why that had not happened.

The shooting in the Fallujah mosque became public Tuesday, November 16, with the airing of the footage taken Saturday by Sites.

...more...

[DS1]

1. SNAFU

:-)

[saigon68]

104. HERE IS HOW EUROPE SEES IT

"We don't need no fucking allies", the Cod Piece CHIMPANZEE

[Plaid Adder]

2. Actually, this was reported in the initial story

I don't know why people didn't pick up on it at the time. Sites says that when his group of Marines showed up they heard gunfire inside and a guy from the other group of Marines came out and reported that they had found 5 people inside and shot them. Asked whether the people they'd shot were armed, this soldier "shrugged."

Ah, the difference video makes,

The Plaid Adder

[Carla in Ca]

97. I have a question for you

In your opinion, do you think the Iraqis know about the abuse/torture at the prisons? How much more can these poor people stand?

[0007]

105. Yes Carla, these folks and the whole world knows about Abu Ghraib

and the U.S. shooting wounded Iraqis. They're probably getting more news updates than us, don't you think?

[theHandpuppet]

3. I had suspected this

I haven't reviewed that tape for several days now, but before the cameraman enters the mosque you can hear several more shots on the audio coming from inside the mosque. I had assumed that the other wounded had been shot by other troops and that the last one just happened to be the only one caught on tape.

[R Hickey]

8. I heard a burst of rapid fire from one gun. Think it was on BBC

It sounded like around six or seven rounds in the space of less than a second, all from one gun.

[exJW]

44. Yes, I saw a portion right before the "he's fucking breathing!" shot...

The camera is on an older (65ish looking) man leaning against the wall in the foreground, with the shooting marine 10 ft or so down the wall looking at another man against the wall (the one he sees breathing and shoots).

I could swear that I saw blood gurgling out of the old mans mouth during this 5 second or so scene. It didn't make sense till just now... he had only just before been shot.

[Bush Lies]

96. The old man was dying as the other was being shot.

You are right. Watch the old man against the wall. He seems to exhale and then blood (I thought from his eye but mouth makes more sense) dripped into the pool of blood to his left.

Note that as the soldiers first approach the mosque from the rear the sound of shots. What this seems to indicate is that the group of soldiers already at the mosque had shot some of the Iraqis. I believe the audio supports this. Then the next group arrived and one of those soldiers shot the other Iraqi.

So two separate groups of soldiers possibly shooting unarmed insurgents? I hope I am wrong...

[colonel odis]

4. sites probably now has a big bullseye on his back.

and if those marines shot those unarmed, wounded people in their place of worship, then they deserve the same.

[Dhalgren]

14. I agree with The Plaid Adder's article on today's front page.

This is no different than what we are doing everyday in Iraq - what we have been doing everyday in Iraq since March 2003. We are killing unarmed people; we are killing non-combatants; we are killing woman, children and old people. America doesn't care who is killed as long as we are doing the killing. We are a sick, twisted, ugly nation and somebody, somewhere, has to stop us...

[TexasChick]

23. Imagine, if Gore were allowed to serve his term, we wouldn't be talking

or hearing about this! America, how do we lose you? :(

[KingChicken]

5. This happens all the time

I now have 8 seperate video tapped occurrences in which Marines fired upon, and killed, unarmed people, without verifying that they were a threat. I'm sure that some of the occurrences are out of pure frustration, but a lot of these killings are very intentional and systematic.

Some highlights:

-> Indiscriminate fire by Marines in Najaf at unarmed individuals (August)
-> Repeated cluster bombing of Sadr City (population 2 million), wide reports of massive civilian damage & casualties
-> Several different reports of wounded civilians and insurgents deliberately shot after being obiously disabled in Fallujah (April)
-> Shoting of civilians escaping Fallujah, women & children included (Nov. 2004), seperate reports of people attempting to cross both bridges before initial invasion, and people crossing the Euphrates.
-> F-16 bombs 20 - 35 unarmed people in Fallujah (April)
-> 20 prisoners killed at Abu Ghraib, some intentionally, some by accident or pure neglect.
-> Apache kills 3 unarmed people in field (possible farmers)

[UL_Approved]

I want archive copies

If you can post them in any way, or give me a link, I would be much appreciative. I'm slowly collecting bits and pieces of U.S. crimes and am trying to get a good archive of this shit.

[UL_Approved]

12. I want archive copies

If you can post them in any way, or give me a link, I would be much appreciative. I'm slowly collecting bits and pieces of U.S. crimes and am trying to get a good archive of this shit.

[NCN007]

89. King

Of the video I've seen:
Apache - people killed were seen removing an object from the back of a truck. Object looked either like a hoe or RPG, depending on one's bais

"Hes gone" video - shows nothing. Injured insurgent could have still been dangerous, tough call either way.

Mosque video - Hard call to make for the soldier. A brother Marine from his unit was killed by a man in a blanket like that just before the incident. Its under harsh investigation, and you cant say with any real backing that he is guilty or innocent.

I havent seen the other videos. If you have the links to them, I would be interested in seeing them and how you plan on proving intentional and systematic. Oh yea, and do some homework too. It probably doesnt make much difference to people so set against the military, but the Marines do not fly F-16 or Apache helocopters, and were not at all involved in Abu Ghraib.

[German-Lefty]

6. Shhh, nothing to see here.

I wonder if it is possible to train troops like police, to where they are less likely to flagrantly disregard the law. I wonder if our troops have read the Geneva conventions.

Even if the did get the best training, if you just saw your friends die, you may make very bad decisions.

If we are going to be the world police, maybe we should be training our troops like policemen. Police are vetted before joining, so you don't get some psycho in a uniform with gun.

[tuckessee]

31. Where have you been?!?!?!

American police are PSYCHOS in uniform with gun!

Just look at the news........
Cops shoot handcuffed prisoner, gang of cops sodomize immigrant, SWAT team kills innocent man in botched raid on wrong house, off-duty cops robbing stores, narc officers stealing evidence, cops murdering wives, frame-ups, perjury, pay-offs, graft, corruption, cronyism, and on and on it goes.

Rarely are police officers punished for their crimes as severely as would be a "civilian".

Iraq is the perfect training ground for the future policemen of America.

It's a place where sadistic thrill seeking goons with a license to kill can do their thing. Without a war, the next best thing to be is a cop on American streets or a guard in American prisons.

Ever notice how often news articles always say that this or that GI killed in Iraq had planned to be cop when he got out?

Weren't many of the exposed Abu Grhaib torturers prison guards in civilian life?

[German-Lefty]

99. American police still have some standards

American police are PSYCHOS in uniform with gun!
Some are, yes. My point is that the police have some standards. The military in occupation of another country is even worse.

A thought exercise for right wingers that live in cities: Imagine the police were removed from your town. Then imagine that the only thing put in the their place is a much smaller contingent of foreign troops, who live in a base outside of town and only come out in large convoys to patrol. To make matters worse they don't know your culture or your language. Let's just make them Chinese for now.
What's going to happen to the crime rate, law and order?


Iraq is the perfect training ground for the future policemen of America.
Yes, after every major war where we've tortured, those same methods wind up being used by the police. Spanish-America War's water torture was used by cops in the 30s. Vietnam's electro-torture was used in the 70s&80s.


I respect and trust German cops more than US-American cops. I still would rather have an American cop knock on my door than some 20 year old army reservist who has no idea how to do police work, or for that matter a random Iraqi with 2 weeks training who has no idea how to respectfully treat civilians.

[Minimus]

7. I'm not hearing anything about the one I saw last week...

an insurgent sniper was wounded and fell into an alley, a marine peered over the wall, fired his weapon, and said "he's done".

Has anyone reported on this?

I was outraged when I saw it and then a few days later the mosque shooting is being aired so I don't know if it just got lost in the shuffle or if I'm the only one that was appalled by it.

[maddezmom]

11. haven't seen that incident reported yet either n/t

[jmcgowanjm]

17. cut/edited on CNN

This was 1st reported from AU, the Ozzie saw it live.

I noted it, moved on until CNN guy on Blitzer's show,
runs this montage of clips to give a "feel" for Fallujah
fighting.

One of the clips shows a platoon getting sniped.
Then a troop peering into an alley, saying the Iraqi's
wounded.

Then cut to reporter saying we don't know what happened
here. But then, another shot in the montage clearly
shows another troop turning away from the alley.

The Ozzie says that troop shot the wounded Iraqi
and said, "He's done."

CNN clearly edited this out.

[Minimus]

21. Yep, that is how I saw it. I don't remember what I was watching but

It seemed clear the soldier peered over the wall, then shot, and said he's done.

I turned to my husband and said, my god, did I just see that?

[NCN007]

86. Yes

its been reported, but there is no way to know whether or not the insurgent still had his weapon and was attempting to engage the marine

[Bozita]

9. Has a journalist ever been fragged?

Sites had better sleep with one eye open.

[Nihil]

13. US Army just uses a tank

Even if sleeping with one eye open in their "safe" hotel bed.

[NNN0LHI]

24. Reuters: Cameraman killed near Baghdad (Abu Ghraib) prison

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/08/17/sprj.irq.cameraman/

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- A Reuters cameraman was shot and killed Sunday while filming near the Abu Ghraib prison just west of Baghdad, the news agency reported in a written statement.

The prison was the target of a mortar attack Saturday night that killed at least six Iraqi detainees, U.S. military officials said.

Reuters identified the cameraman as Mazen Dana, a 43-year-old Palestinian who had worked for the company for 10 years, mostly in the West Bank city of Hebron. He was married and had four children.

The news agency said Dana was one of its most experienced conflict journalists. He won an International Press Freedom Award in 2001 by the Committee to Protect Journalists for his work in Hebron, where he was wounded and beaten many times.

more

[MountainLaurel]

28. Last year the U.S. bombed the hotel

Where most of the journalists in Bagdhad were staying, knowing full well they were there. Does that count?

[Bozita]

51. IIRC, that was the Palestine Hotel

In addition, a tank fired into a small building rented by Al-Jazeera.

This was just a few yards from the hotel. A couple of A-J employees were killed.

[Bridget Burke]

42. More than 100 journalists killed in 2004--so far.

BRUSSELS: Over 100 journalists have been killed since the start of January, making 2004 the most deadly year for journalists in a decade, an international media rights group said.

The slayings of three journalists in recent days in Ivory Coast, Nicaragua and the Philippines pushed this year's total to 101, the International Federation of Journalists said in a statement on Friday.

"2004 is turning out to be one of the most bloody years on record," said Aidan White, the federation's general secretary. "The crisis of news safety has reached an intolerable level and must be addressed urgently."

www.newindpress.com/Newsitems.asp?ID=IEL20041113134624&Title=World&Topic=0

These are worldwide figures, but other posts have focused on those killed in Iraq.

[colonel odis]

84. i would suspect all the time. sites is lucky he got out of there

alive with that footage.

[unfrigginreal]

10. WTF? What are our guys thinking?

And now the stupid freaks on Imus are all claiming that Sikes should have lost the tape.

[grumpy old fart]

16. Bush loves us focusing on the "out of control troops"

Yeah, let's blame it on the 19 year old kids he threw into an unwinable illegal war, with orders to do what they're doing. I know "following orders" is not an legal justification for what has been done, but need this to go higher. It's systemic, and will not stop till those in the cushy safe world of Washington are held accountable.

[LoneDriver]

33. The blame for this goes all the way to the top.

I have to delurk here. Please don't be too harsh on these soldiers. They are just kids in a real bad situtation. These kids in battle instinctively understand that this whole conflict, From the invasion of Iraq to Abu Gharib down to this particular battle, is to teach "these people" that resistance to the American empire is futile. That we (the American people), as represented by our institutions will continue to kill more and more of them until they give up and become good subjects. This is the same tactic as Vietnam, and just as in Vietnam these tactics of mass murder only strengthen the will of the people to fight. All the firepower in the world cannot win against a protracted peoples war. The ultimate end is inevitable, we will leave , one day, sadly only after too much suffering.

[grumpy old fart]

34. Too True

and welcome to DU my brother.

[Kittycat]

50. Don't be too harsh - we can't be harsh enough.... WAR CRIMES

You know what, I want these people prosecuted to the highest extent of the law! What's going to happen when these nutjobs come home? What's going to happen when my dad (from India) or my uncle (from Iran) are walking down the street and accidently bumps into one of the assholes on a bad day!

Don't be harsh - Fark 'em - I hope they get locked up for life!

[Buck Rabbit]

81. Not "kids" Marines, professional volunteer soldiers.

These are not guardsmen, reservists or draftees.

You don't join the Marines just to see the world or get an education. The Army and Navy have better programs for that. You join the Marines to be HARD core Marine Corps. A life taker and a heart breaker. A Marine and his rifle the most deadly weapon on earth.

Some here have tried to excuse the Marines actions because they were scared. A true Marine would say fuck that, cowardice and fear are not an acceptable excuse for anything in the Corps.

[JSJ]

102. 'the troops' have earned all the antipathy they get

[saigon68]

103. These are not "KIDS" they are Killers, Thugs and Murdereers.

If they are kids-- what are the Iraqi s who are trying to kick out a bunch of Christian kids from their country who are killing their mothers and sisters and doing this to their father?

I won't tell you you tell ME.




Here's one of your kids.

[grumpy old fart]

15. Needs to go up the command chain

No excuses, but I'm tired of these (mostly) kids getting the blame for what is clearly a command decision in this illegal war of aggression. We train these guys to be killing machines, and trust that the military command and civilian authority will use them in accord with international rules of war and law. When they don't, we need to hold those people accountable. Rumsfeld and Bush are nothing less than war criminals, murderers, and traitors.

[Sterling]

19. I think everyone gets the blame, the troops, Bush and us.

I am pretty sure our tax dollars are paying for those bullets and the troops have some how lost their sense of decency.

Maybe they have lost it because they aren too dumb/brainwashed to see through the myth of 9-11 and Bushes faux cChristianity. Whatever it is they are as much a part of Bush/America's crimes as the German sodiers were part of Hitlers/ Germany's crimes.

[grumpy old fart]

29. Degrees of Guilt

I'm sorry, but I'm not prepared to hold a scared 19 year old kid who has been trained to do what he is told, to the same degree of guilt as a 72 year old who is directing everything, is in control, understands the big picture, and is sitting out of harm's way at a cushy desk in Washington. The kids are the tools of this Evil chimp Empire.

[jmcgowanjm]

35. yes, degrees and types of hell

But as the mlitary is so fond of saying,

"Ignorance is no excuse."

And per the post on "cranked up kids",

I've heard those stories.

[Democracy Died 2004]

49. Just poor scared, misguided kids being controlled through

zombie brain control. When will the excuses for murder stop? I am scared so i decided to waste a dying person and then get a good giggle out of it. Whoohoo. The excuses have to stop. ALL must be held accountable.

[peacetalksforall]

52. You are right. First crime - corporate war. Second crime - questionable

training on rules of war, Or Third crime - intentional genocide. Fourth crime - blaming the young people who were trained and ordered to do what they are doing.

[jmcgowanjm]

18. I'm guessin' that the US doesn't want to hear about human shields

IRR 111604

Resistance field commander saw American troops use
women and children as human shields atop their tanks.

What is happening in al-Fallujah is a war of
revenge against the civilians and it is more intense than
what you are hearing on the news. The Americans are now
only present in the western neighborhoods that they entered
on the first days of the fighting. They did not get into
the al-Jawlan, an-Nazal, or ash-Shuhada’ neighborhoods, or
the industrial zone. They have blown up or bombarded
with shells every mosque they got their hands on. They
have done the same with every building and with
apartment blocks. The civilian victims account for more than
90 percent of the total casualties, and they have been buried
in mass graves. The American losses and the losses of
the so-called national guard are many times what they
declare. For this reason, they do not allow the news media
to enter the city. The national guard has begun to rob
houses, taking everything they can carry, and loading it on cars
to haul it out of the city. May God suffice for us, for He is the
best patron.

The Iraqi Resistance leader described to the Mafkarat al-
Islam correspondent the tragic situation in the demolished
city “which has become unbearable due to the large number
of dead Iraqi civilians in the streets whose bodies are
being eaten by dogs.”

He said that bodies of children shot dead by American
snipers yesterday or the day before as they tried to cross
the street, were also being devoured by the dogs. Neither
the families nor the Resistance fighters are able to retrieve
the remains of their mangled bodies because of the
American snipers are still perched atop high
buildings.

The commander described whole buildings that were
totally burned with everyone inside.

“All such things,” he said, “have compelled some of
the Resistance organizations to incline to taking up the
method of war of attrition.

[jmcgowanjm]

22. and noone wants to hear about massgraves of US soldiers

A new report has now surfaced on the Arabic
website abolkhaseb.net, accompanied by some footage,
which provides an in-depth analysis of the discovery of
the bodies. The writer of the five page report (in Arabic) goes
into great detail details about locations and how the bodies
were dumped in rivers and remote desert locations. The
author claims to have talked to two American female
soldiers and an American communications officer
who reluctantly confirmed the finding but said that most of
these bodies were mercenaries who were promised high
paying job and in some case US citizenship.

The narrator on the film clip indicates that the bodies were
taken from the mass graves to an undisclosed grave and
they will be handed over to Red Crescent, Red Cross or
any organization that promises to get the truth out.

Lately, reports from all over the homeland tell about US
planes that throw black and white bags over rivers and
deserts. In the meantime, continuous daily resistance attacks
on an area in the west of Iraq have forced the US
occupation troops to flee that area which contains several
mass graves for American dead solders. The occupiers
have used heavy machines to make mass graves where
dead solders were quickly buried.
The mass graves area has attracted stray animals and
they
ate some of the bodies, which were partly buried.
Hence,
body parts and bones are spread all over the
desert.

Anyway, many of these bodies were collected from
different areas in Iraq. The majority of the dead bodies were
of white skin and tall solders. Those solders were killed in
Iraq and were not in anyway involved in making the decision
to come to Iraq and be killed there. In addition the dead
bodies were put in bags that are only used by the US army.
The bodies will be delivered to the Iraqi Red Crescent or the
Red Cross or any organization that respects its mission.
These mass graves are an honest proof of the occupiers’ lies
to hide the number of dead solders and where they’re
about. These pictures are just of some of the unknown
number of dead American solders. Now we are challenging
the criminals of war and the occupiers to explain to the
families who lost their sons for the occupation of Iraq
whether their sons will be returned home, be buried in Iraq, or
be thrown to the dogs to eat them.

[Comadreja]

77. Doubtful

Mass graves of US troops? I don't think this is plausible. Too many families are keeping a close watch on their people. The Pentagon can't just fob off some lame excuse about "missing in action" on more than a few families.

[jmcgowanjm]

107. So you won't believe this either

IRR 111704

Therefore Mafkarat al-Islam’s editorial board decided to
publish the story so that it could be recorded and so that
history could bear witness to the crimes of the American
forces.

Doctor charges US used chemical weapons in al-
Fallujah.

An Iraqi doctor accused the US forces in al-Fallujah of
using chemical weapons against the city. Speaking on the
radio program Panorama FM at midday Wednesday, the
doctor said that he had examined two bodies of Iraqis killed
by the Americans using internationally prohibited
chemical weapons. Mafkarat al-Islam reported the doctor
as saying that the bodies had no gunshot or shrapnel
wounds, nor any sign of blunt force
trauma.

Mafkarat al-Islam had earlier reported on the Americans’ use
of chemical agents in al-Fallujah on 11 November, but at
that time the extent of the damaged they caused was
diminished by a rainstorm.

Let me hazard a guess on reasons for disbelief
-cognitive dissonance between
USmedia and IRR. To believe that there are 1000's
of trapped UStroops in Fallujah is to know that
our media is Pravda1985.

The Soviet decision makers did not anticipate the influential
role of Islam in the Afghan society.  There were very few
experts on Islam in the Soviet government and the
academic institutions.  The highest leadership was
poorly informed about the strength of religious beliefs among
the masses of the Afghan population.  Political and
military leaders were surprised to find that rather than
being perceived as a progressive anti-imperialist force,
the Afghanis as foreign invaders, and “infidels.” Reports
from Afghanistan show the growing awareness of the
“Islamic factor” on the part of Soviet military and
political personnel.

http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB57/soviet.html

[Val]

20. Islamonline.org???

Islamonline.org for LBN? Kinda like the ChiCom "News".

[UpInArms]

26. Wow Val (with 14 posts!) you would be an expert

on that wouldn't you?

Whether you understand that Islamonline is widely read in the rest of the world would just fly past your hair, would it not?

So this is what the ME is reading and maybe we ought to have our heads jerked out of our arses and know that.

I wonder how long you'll be around DU :shrug:

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[UpInArms]

37. sorry that I offended you, bendeminga

I'm not big on "labeling" - but my tolerance for ignorance and bigotry has grown smaller.

Val may not want to read ME papers but the ME reads them - the news is the news wherever it comes from and our media here has definitely shown its lack of journalistic abilities to inform the American public of real issues that affect all of us.

[jmcgowanjm]

39. and the differing opinion is... n/t

[Val]

38. Agitprop is not news.

Agitprop and "News" are different. I'll be banned for pointing this out?

[jmcgowanjm]

41. how is "Agitprop" and News different? n/t

[Val]

53. Usually....

you can expect information from sources like ABC, LA Times, NPR to be based in fact. Checked and rechecked.

Sources like the old Pravda, ChiCom News, North Korean News, and Islamonline.org, as well as Al Jazera are designed for their domestic consumption and their info should be viewed with skepticism until confirmed by a reliable source. The Mods "police" LBN in this way. Why should I have to defend pointing this out just because of a low post count? It's a tad bit intellectually dishonest to pretend these agitprop sources are like the BBC.

[maddezmom]

56. here's a NYTarticle, from today: there are question that remain

The inquiry will also have to determine what happened to the other Iraqis in the room. Some of them, according to the initial NBC report, appeared to be dead or dying when Mr. Sites entered with a group of marines, joining other marines who were already there. He has suggested that the other Iraqis may have been shot just before he entered, according to The Associated Press.

On Tuesday, Mr. Sites declined to elaborate on what he had seen.

After the on-camera shooting, marines pointed their guns at another prone Iraqi who was reaching out weakly with one hand, but they backed off without shooting at him, the videotape showed.

The initial NBC report said that the Iraqis, all of whom had been wounded in fighting on Friday and then had been disarmed and left in the mosque, did not appear to be threatening, and that there were no weapons visible in the room.

The incident captured in the NBC report unfolded as members of the Third Battalion, First Regiment of the First Marine Division entered the unidentified mosque in Falluja on Saturday. Mr. Sites reported that marines from a different unit had attacked the building on Friday after coming under fire, killing 10 insurgents and wounding 5 others. The marines treated the wounded on Friday, took their weapons and then left, Mr. Sites reported. On Saturday, another group of marines, accompanied by Mr. Sites, entered the mosque, but it is unclear how many of the Iraqis were still alive then.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/17/international/middleeast/17mosque.html?ex=1101358800&en=89db2872762786fd&ei=5006&partner=ALTAVISTA1

[Val]

63. The biggest question that remains is...

Is Mr. Sites in a secure location? His anti-war agenda is spreading on the Internet, and I hope he isn't "embellishing". He could be in danger.

[maddezmom]

64. "He could be in danger" ??

those are the questions that remain for you...some of the people of the world want to know what the hell is going on in Iraq??

[Val]

67. If the soldiers perceive Sites is setting them up...

because of his Anti-War beliefs...? Well, on another thread here someone ask if a reporter had ever been fragged?

[maddezmom]

69. yeah, that's all the US Military needs...another death of a reporter

:eyes:

[UpInArms]

74. links to reporters in Iraq

http://www.gulufuture.com/news/kate_adie030310.htm

PENTAGON THREATENS
TO KILL INDEPENDENT
REPORTERS IN IRAQ

10th March, 2003
by Fintan Dunne, Editor
http://www.GuluFuture.com

The Pentagon has threatened to fire on the satellite uplink positions of independent journalists in Iraq, according to veteran BBC war correspondent, Kate Adie. In an interview with Irish radio, Ms. Adie said that questioned about the consequences of such potentially fatal actions, a senior Pentagon officer had said: "Who cares.. ..They've been warned."

According to Ms. Adie, who twelve years ago covered the last Gulf War, the Pentagon attitude is: "entirely hostile to the the free spread of information."

...more...

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/world/ny-journalistcasulist,0,258140.story?coll=ny-worldnews-headlines

List Of Journalists Killed in Iraq

April 8, 2003, 9:54 AM EDT

News organization employees killed in combat situations during the war in Iraq, which began March 20:

...more...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,932202,00.html

Journalists injured as Baghdad hotel attacked

Jason Deans and Ciar Byrne
Tuesday April 8, 2003

The base for most western journalists in Baghdad, the Palestine hotel, has been attacked this morning as the battle for the Iraqi capital intensifies.

Four Reuters journalists including a TV cameraman, a technician and two others working at the hotel were injured, according to Sky News, which within 30 minutes of the attack, was able to broadcast footage from within the hotel.

The hotel has been the de facto press centre for the past three weeks and is home to dozens of journalist from newspapers and television.

Sky News' Baghdad correspondent David Chater said he was just about to do a piece to camera when an incredible explosion ripped through the building.

"I do remember looking across at that tank. It might not have been trying to hit that hotel but it has grazed the side of it. It might have been trying to hit a target behind the hotel. Journalists realised that they are very vulnerable.

...more...

http://media.guardian.co.uk/broadcast/story/0,7493,932488,00.html

US claims killings were 'self defence'

Julia Day
Tuesday April 8, 2003

US commanders have claimed "significant enemy fire" was coming from both the Palestine Hotel and al-Jazeera buildings attacked by US forces, killing three journalists and injuring several more.

The US military claims its forces were using the "inherent right of self-defence" in returning fire, and blamed the tragedies on the Iraqi regime's strategy of using civilian buildings for military purposes.

It says it was "unfortunate" that the buildings were being used by journalists.

In a statement this afternoon the US central command issued was it called "further clarification" on the two incidents.

Jose Couso, a cameraman from Spanish TV channel Telecinco, and Taras Protsyuk, a Ukrainian national working for Reuters, both died after a US tank fired on the Palestinian Hotel, the de facto base of western journalists in Baghdad.

And al-Jazeera cameraman Tareq Ayyoub died when a coalition bombing raid hit the Arabic language station's Baghdad office this morning.

Of the hotel attack, the US statement said: "Commanders on the ground reported that coalition forces received significant enemy fire from the Palestine Hotel in Baghdad and, consistent with their inherent right of self-defence, coalition forces returned fire.

"Sadly a Reuters and a Telecinco journalist were killed in this exchange," the statement said.

...more...

and so many more ...

[ilovenicepeople]

95. nothing gets released in the USA without the pentagons aproval

I guess someone felt that the Muslims wern't pissed off enough,gotsta keep the war going theres blood money to be made.

[ebayfool]

75. Ummm ... why do you keep assuming Sites is anti-war?

This seems an odd assumption on your part.
---------
His anti-war agenda is spreading on the Internet, and I hope he isn't "embellishing".

If the soldiers perceive Sites is setting them up...because of his Anti-War beliefs...?

[JoFerret]

109. He is already under attack

from the fearless freeper types.

[daleo]

79. How do you know he has an anti-war agenda?

He may just have a "report the facts" agenda, which is what journalists are supposed to do.

Do you have a pro-war agenda?

[jmcgowanjm]

58. w/o using 911/alqaeda/zarqawi/terrorist, justify Iraq invasion

n/t

[Val]

60. Nope. Off topic. Won't bite. Thanks though. N/T

[jmcgowanjm]

71. I rest my case n/t

[Val]

72. Your resting your case because I won't take your...

off topic flame bait? I don't have to justify the Iraq conflict to you. I don't feel like a screed this morning. You go ahead though. Why don't you save your righteous indignation for BushCo. and not pick on a know-nothing low-poster.

[jmcgowanjm]

106. Because I can tell intelligence at work w/ you

And if you are symp to the UStroops, you need to tell
them they're in the Big Muddy and a fool is telling
them to push on.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=997803#

The sources say that the battles now under way in al-Fallujah are the fiercest ever seen-IRR 111704

Notice FoxNews-Falluja forces will not be reduced
anytime soon.


You can't correct if you don't source the problem.

[peacetalksforall]

83. If the objective of PNAC and the cabal is to takeover regions and the

world, then we deserve to know what the regions and the world is reporting. If the NYT or WSJ in New Delhi or Bahrain or anywhere don't give us the news, we need the others.

[leftchick]

100. WOW! You perfectly described....

Our Sate Run Media here in the USA, land of the free to be ignorant!


'designed for their domestic consumption and their info should be viewed with skepticism until confirmed by a reliable source. '

[UpInArms]

46. you seem, once again, to only feel

the breeze.

Perhaps the news is not what you read, but the perception of the US in the eyes of the rest of the world.

If you refuse to read what others have to say, you will be surprised by your lack of understanding on how the opinions of the ME will affect our military and its "goals" in Iraq.

When the insurgency grows or when a hostage is killed in retaliation for these opinions, you will not be able to connect the dots and figure out how badly we have lost the "hearts and minds" campaign.

Then you will not understand how badly this mal-administration has waged its "war on terror" and how it has increased the insecurity of every US or westerner.

Agitprop or not, it is definitely information that we need to know.

[Val]

59. I don't refuse or mind reading agitprop intended...

for the "Arab street". But it should not be presented as news and the truth, from these sources alone. Even a "low-poster" like me can easily connect the dots.

Islam, the religion of peace and death to all infidels is predictable in it's rage on the West. Muslim terrorists will find a reason to kill, based in fact or fiction.

[maddezmom]

61. AP; Iraqi PM 'Very Concerned' Over Shooting

~snip~
The U.S. military said Tuesday it was investigating after pool video footage by NBC showed a Marine shooting a wounded man lying in a Fallujah mosque during an operation Saturday of the 3rd Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment.


Military investigators also are looking into whether more than one wounded insurgent was shot in the mosque, said Maj. Francis Piccoli, a spokesman for the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force.


Two other men visible on the NBC video appear to be suffering from what the network described as fresh and fatal gunshot wounds.


"The prime minister is very concerned by allegations of an illegal killing by multinational forces in Fallujah," the statement from Allawi's office said. "He has discussed the matter with the commander of the multinational force in Iraq (news - web sites)," Gen. George Casey.

~snip~
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041117/ap_on_re_mi_ea/marine_shooting&cid=540&ncid=1480

[Val]

65. Allawi MUST be concerned with the "Arab Street"

But the Marines were sent into those insurgent strong-holds to kill the insurgents not negotiate. The coalition forces had already given many opportunities for them to lay down their weapons. They have chosen to fight to the death. Unless an insurgent fighter is seen to be shackled and restrained, he is a threat to the soldier. The insurgents have rigged IEDs INSIDE bodies of their fallen and killed Marines. A tough judgment call for a Marine in CQB.

[maddezmom]

66. if they were a threat, they should have been "secured" not left to die

[Val]

70. Probably...?

I don't know the procedures. This is the first true "Urban Warfare" scenario I believe. Maybe the playbook is changing as the soldiers have to adapt to taking an area that is then retaken by the enemy and has to be taken again by the soldiers???

[UpInArms]

80. the world and most of its inhabitants

are not "military" - they are are civilian in nature - they do not see the world through a soldier's eyes nor with a soldier's training.

here is an article - a commentary really - from a former UK soldier -

perhaps if the ME were comprised of UK and US trained military, there would not be an "image" problem - but that is not the case

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1352831,00.html

excerpt:

In all that time of training, no one ever sat me down and read me the Geneva convention. I may have been given a copy, but I don't recall. Of course, for Northern Ireland, we were given complex rules of engagement - we had the yellow card, according to which you had to stop and shout a warning - even after you'd been fired upon - before returning fire. And, of course, we had our standard operating procedures (Sops).

There is a drill, for instance, for "clearing ground". This is a combat tactic, now used by every army in the world, for securing an area that has just been captured. The context is this: there's just been a battle; there will be bodies and weapons lying around. Your unit will go past the area that was the target (it might be just a courtyard or a building). Once everyone and everything has been checked - which takes a matter of seconds, two minutes at most - the section commander will order a couple of soldiers, working as a pair, to go back and "clear the ground".

The main purpose is to gather intelligence - paperwork, maps, radios. When you know that there have very recently been people in that area trying to kill you, do you go up to a body and start to rummage through pockets without knowing for sure that the guy isn't actually still alive and about to stick a 10-inch knife in you? So where there are bodies, you don't go near them. Not until you have put two bullets into each, fired usually from a range of several yards. Then one soldier holds back to provide cover while the other runs up, and first lies on top of the body to immobilise it and make it difficult for the enemy to use a firearm if he's lying doggo. Next the soldier rolls the body over towards his partner so that the covering man can check for any sign of a booby-trap. The idea of this is that, if there is an explosive device, the body itself will afford the first soldier some protection, while the other soldier will be out of range.

This is one of hundreds of Sops used by troops. It'll be in any army field manual. It's absolutely standard practice for securing captured ground - learned through bitter experience of losing men through having enemy combatants get up and run away or start shooting at you again.

...more...

[jmcgowanjm]

73. At least 4 agitprop "truths" used in the above

sources please. Any will do.

[Val]

76. The "Arab Street" concern is kinda obvious....

The rest of the post is from a panel discussion of active and retired military types from last nights MSNBC line-up.

If I thought you really cared, I'd search the transcripts when they're posted in a couple of days, and get back to you. But I think you just want to fight, and I have to get to class.

"I rest my case".

[daleo]

82. If the concern was an IED inside a body

It would make no sense for the marine to walk up to the wounded man, and shoot him point blank from a few feet away. If the concern was a booby trapped body (alive or dead) he would not have gotten that close. It is like saying someone concerned about a roadside bomb would walk up to it and start pumping bullets into the suspect object from two feet away.

[jmcgowanjm]

108. Then I need a source of news and truth, Val

I would appreciate it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1002053#1002144

[The_Urge]

47. Maybe

They are not big on dissenting opinions around here. I'll probably be banned for writing this.

[go west young man]

27. Hey the good news is......

well hell! There is no good news. War makes killers. These 20 year old killers (or heros as the press would say) are coming back to the states eventually. They will have all kinds of disorders due to what they have seen and done. I'm sure they think they had to kill the Iraqi combatants as they did thier "sweep" of the town but they have disregarded the Geneva Convention right in front of the whole world and I personally think it does start at the top. We disregarded it going into this war by attacking them and now its believed amongst our people and our troops that we have to slaughter them at all costs to win this war. Its a sad state of affairs. Kevin Sites should get the hell out of there before he is as dead as those insurgents.

[librechik]

48. Conservatives are eager to muzzle the press, sure

Democrats are willing to listen to all voices, even the ones on the other side, so to speak. So? That's what makes us liberals.

Besides. even Bush says we are NOT against Islam. Islamonline is a fair source, IMO. (Might not be LBN, though)

[maddezmom]

57. here's a NYT article from today raising the ? about the other wounded

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/17/international/middleeast/17mosque.html?ex=1101358800&en=89db2872762786fd&ei=5006&partner=ALTAVISTA1

[jmcgowanjm]

25. If your attack is going exceptionally well, it is probably an ambush.”

Old military maxim

The US Empire is overstretching itself to a great extent.
The economic motives for entering Iraq in the first place are
not paying off. Instead they see themselves more and
more trapped in a Catch 22. They cannot simply leave
Iraq because that would go against their economic and
strategic interests. On the other hand, the more they crush
the resistance by turning Iraqi cities to dust, the bigger
the resistance grows. These elemental truths won’t
remain hidden forever to the American public. There is a limit
on the extent rulers can fool the people. And once these
facts grip the consciousness of ordinary working people
in America and elsewhere, things will move at a fast
pace.

http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=4340

[rudlop]

30. All Cranked Up?

I don't know if anyone else sees this, but the behavior of that Marine seems to be very similar to what happens to people that have been taking speed for several days. It's not out of my realm of conceivably that he was cranked up out of his mind (just listen to the tone in his voice). People on meth can be aggressive, violent, and have poor judgment.

[OrwellwasRight]

40. Hi Rudlop

Welcome to DU! :hi:

Good point about the meth. Does anybody know its prevalence over there?

[Bozita]

45. We know that pilots were given speed

Remember Afghanistan and the Canadian soldiers?

[Bozita]

68. Does the military give 'Go-Pills' or speed to troops on the ground?

Does anyone know?

We know that they were issued to pilots in Afghanistan.

[NCN007]

91. No

other than No-Doze in care packages from mom, the military does not medicate infantrymen. Just pilots who are in charge of a lot of firepower and money. And the drugs they give them have the same side-effects as the sleep deprivation its treating, but serves to keep the heart and breath rates up so the pilot doesnt pass out in the cockpit.

[NCN007]

90. Also happens when

people have been going without sleep for several days, constantly exposed to stressful and emotional situations, always on alert, and generally experiencing the other wonders of urban (or any type of) combat

[Roland99]

36. Winning their hearts and minds by shooting bullets through them.

[Comadreja]

78. With all our money in the Pentagon now...

looks like we solve ALL our problems by shooting them, bombing them, or jailing them in some form or another.

[Roland99]

94. Poignant image.

:(

[CHICKEN CAPITOL USA]

43. my 100th post Congratulates all on THIS THREAD-YOU ROCK-all great posts

You are all pulling this together so WELL--All those independent events-
This is what the corporate media SHOULD be doing-
connecting the dots-
ALL the posts (except the bitchy ones) together offer a great insight to the OVERALL situation.
I had forgottten about half of those journalist killings and farmers and other innocents.
PLEASE, anyone who has actual VIDEO,****post it with links****.
Archiving this thread for future reference could be extremely useful later.
THANKS--time for me to donate now--

[Politicub]

54. Freedom is on the march! says Bush

Arf arf arf, says his poodle Tony Blair.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

55. but but but it was just 4 isolated incidents

[sattahipdeep]

62. mercenaries Shadow Soldiers in Iraq n/t

[NCN007]

92. Mercenaries?

What are you talking about?

[frankieT]

85. this kind of executions reminds me of the Einzatsgruppen,

the Nazi troops doing the "cleaning" (thousands of Russian civilians, Jews, partisans, etc) in the rear of operation Barbarossa.

[PsychoDad]

87. Support the troops...

Gott mit Uns

And all that...

[American Tragedy]

93. Recht Oder Unrecht Mein Vaterland; Arbeit Macht Frei

Right or wrong my country, and work sets free.

Engraved on the gates of a concentration camp. I saw them myself last year and they were devastating.

[ArnoldLayne]

88. This is also going on must see!!!!!

link http://fallujapictures.blogspot.com/

[Chicago Democrat]

98. Sadly, I'm sure this is commonplace....

cept 99.999999999% of the time; there is no camera.

[JSJ]

101. that's 'the troops' i've come to know and loath- bad, bad, bad!

[struggle4progress]

110. kick

:kick:

[VegasWolf]

111. Druge has posted O'Liely's take, he forgives the soldiers. n/t