Pregnant Wife of Soldier in Iraq Shot in the Head

[wicket]

http://www.thebostonchannel.com/news/3923818/detail.html

A Pennsylvania man is charged with shooting the pregnant wife of a soldier in Iraq, just because -- according to police -- he wanted to kill somebody. Police said Noel Gomez (pictured, left), 19, shot the woman late Sunday night.

Julia Cook, 21, of New York, remains hospitalized at a hospital in York. She is listed in serious condition after being shot in the head with a shotgun. Cook's husband is currently serving in Iraq.

Gomez said he didn't know the victim, but was just was looking for someone to kill, according to court papers.

-snip-

When he saw Cook, who is six months pregnant, walking to her car in the parking lot of a Giant supermarket in West Manchester Township, Gomez allegedly opened fire with a shotgun. Gomez allegedly told police it was his intent to kill her.

[RubyDuby in GA]

1. Sorry, I believe in due process and all that

but I feel, quite frankly, that we should just skip the trial and save the taxpayers some money.

Get a rope. :grr:

[arwalden]

3. I Understand Your Emotional Reaction To Such A Horrid Crime... BUT...

if you really believe in due process, then you wouldn't be suggesting vigilantism.

I hope it's just an expression of anger and not your true feelings. Besides, once he's dead, then he stops caring because the punishment is over. Wouldn't a long isolated punishment be better?

-- Allen (an old Valdosta boy)

[one_true_leroy]

18. Valdosta as in GA?

[arwalden]

20. Yep... *That's* The One.

:-)

[Javaman]

25. Another example as to why we need gun control.

[RivetJoint]

26. He used a shotgun

think about it...

[ZR2]

85. how exactly would gun control

have helped in this situation ?

[Cadence]

133. Only if people were

required to take an IQ test before purchasing a gun.

[okieinpain]

48. oh hell no, I don't won't to pay for his cigs, meals, health care, and

sex for the rest of his life. injection, rope, or gun fire all work fine for me.

[arwalden]

61. I believe that the cost of lifetime imprisonment is less than

the cost of executing someone. But I have heard Rush and Liddy make that argument many times in their support of the death penalty.

[okieinpain]

67. the reason why it cost so much is because people will appeal

the case over, and over, and over again beyond any resonable number of trials.

[arwalden]

77. Yes I Know.

It would be a shame to execute the wrong person too. You can always set em free with a pat on the back, a hearty apology, a new suit and $20.00 in the pockets. But you can't bring 'em back to life.

[okieinpain]

105. sorry, I just believe that some folks deserve the death penalty.

if you're not for it I can understand that too. but I'm not going to feel sorry for everybody that is in the jail. I've got 2 relatives in there right now that will look you dead in the eye and swear they are innocent.

both of them were some cold heart mofo's when they were on the streets, and I'm damn glad that their asses are locked up. and if they had killed someone I would be the first to recommend that they be put to death. that goes for myself, or my kids.

[NorthernSpy]

110. Ali Abbas agrees with you that some people need to die

"I keep asking myself: 'Why are they bombing Iraqi people? What have we done to them?' I hoped that the pilot who hit our house would be burned as I am burned and my family were burned."

Ali lost both arms and suffered 60 percent burns in a U.S. bombing raid on Baghdad that killed his parents and 13 other family members. He has now been fitted with artificial arms in a London hospital.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/10/13/sprj.irq.ali/


Do you think he's right?

[okieinpain]

111. hey man, if ali wasn't one of the insurgents you're damn right he's

got a right to be pissed off. let me make this simple I have a family, 4 kids, and a loving wife. you fuck with them, you die.

[NorthernSpy]

112. "if he wasn't one of the insurgents"?

Why do you make that condition?

And tellingly, you've softened your language. According to you, Ali "has a right to be pissed off" (unless, of course, he had been an insurgent -- in which case you imply that you wouldn't concede even that). I notice that you aren't actually agreeing that the pilot who maimed him and killed his family deserves to die.

[RivetJoint]

114. Did the pilot knowingly kill innocents?

[NorthernSpy]

116. the short answer is yes, especially since the act occurred...

... in the context of a war of aggression: that is, an unprovoked -- hence illegal -- assault upon another country.

As someone I know is wont to say, you are presumed to have intended the reasonably forseeable consequences of your actions.

Tim McVeigh meant to kill people he thought deserved it, namely a bunch of federal agents. The prosecution conceded that he likely didn't know that the building housed a day care.

Is Timmy guilty of the deaths of those children? Absolutely. The likelihood of killing innocents was there, he knew that much, at least. And he did what he did anyway.

Called them collateral damage, he did. Wonder where he learned that phrase...

[RivetJoint]

119. What competent legal authority,

with appropriate jurisdiction, has ruled this war an illegal act so that the pilot would be off the hook for disobeying his orders?

[NorthernSpy]

128. permanent veto power means never having to hear the words:

"Cease and desist."

Get real. This was an attack on a UN member state, by another UN member state (and a handful of well-bribed toadies from around the globe) without UN authorization. Add that up, then get back to me.

[okieinpain]

132. well yes, a pilot has to reasonably assume that he's killing innocent

people. the bombs are laser guided, the shrapnel is not.

[okieinpain]

115. well of course not, he's working for us. we are the one's ali should

be pissed at.

[NorthernSpy]

126. you're bargaining it down

Are you aware of that?

I mean, we've gone all the way from a full-throated declaration of what "some people" deserve, to a shrugging concession that the whole society is really to blame, but that it's okay for the poor outsider-victim to feel pissed off -- just so long as that's as far as it goes.

[okieinpain]

130. no I still feel that some folks need to die. you're comparing apples

and oranges, and I'm just trying to answer truthfully. ali's problem is caused by america's own stupidity. the guy that shot this lady is just crazy, and no I don't have a problem with mentally ill person to death, with one exception.

did the guy try to get away. if he shot her and sat down like nothing happened, I would say that he is truly out of his mind. but on the other hand if he left the scene then to me that imply's knowing right from wrong.

[NorthernSpy]

136. Ali was maimed by a person

His family was killed by a person. Not a faceless, unpunishable abstract entity. A person. That is the literal truth. All apples, no oranges.

At the heart of the matter is this: there are two tribes of the mind, and they are not equal. Their correspondance to real-world divisions -- of nation, ethnicity, social class, religion, and so on -- is inexact and shifting. But the essential formula is simple, and everyone understands it: There are thems, and there are usses.

Ali isn't an "us". He's a "them". The pilot who destroyed his body and his life isn't a "them". He's an "us".

To agree with vengeance against the pilot is intolerable: it would mean treating an "us" like a "them".

Granting an Ali the same degree of concern as shown for a Julia would be declaring the suffering of a "them" equal with the suffering of an "us": also anathema.

Considering mitigating circumstances in the case of Julia's attacker is out of the question; in the case of Ali's attacker, we'll gladly consider nothing but mitigating circumstances.

It has to do with the sphere of moral concern, and who's in it, and who's out of it. On principle, Ali's case for retribution isn't really any dafter than anyone else's. But even the slight (and decidely qualified) sympathy for his position is largely rhetorical. Such sympathy might be the product of a Sunday school class or a civics lesson, but it certainly doesn't come from the gut. It's not like the sympathy for the woman who was shot. It isn't personal. The otherwise-outraged, such as yourself, don't see Ali Abbas as quite eligible for that level of concern.

[okieinpain]

131. well if you're out playing the game, then you have to except the price.

if I lived in fallujah, and I wasn't one of the insurgents. I would have left before the shit hit the fan. I would have walked my family out, and answered all the the shitty american's questions. and yes I would have went to their little detention camp and put up with the shitty american's bullshit until they felt that they had completely humilated me enough to get their rocks off. but hey that's just me.

[arwalden]

121. Making You Feel Sorry For Someone Was Not My Intention

My intention was to point out that if mistakes are made in "life" sentences, then mistakes can also be made in "death" sentences. And mistakes ARE made.

Thanks for sharing your story. Months before I was born, my grandfather was a deputy sheriff in Georgia, and he pulled a guy over for speeding. The guy he stopped figured he had been caught and stopped for shooting someone in a drunken bar fight earlier that night... so when my grandfather approached the car, the guy shot and killed my grandfather too. I'm delighted that he served the rest of his life in prison withOUT a death penalty. A nice LONG punishment. He died in prison... a little old man. Frail, bedridden, harmless... but still in prison. The death penalty would have been the easy way out for him. The death penalty is not punishment for the guilty, it's not "justice", it's simply revenge for the living.

Some people are into that. I'm not.

[okieinpain]

134. sorry for your lost. but the guy should have gotten the death penalty

I'm really glad that not all people are like me, and that's from the bottom of my heart. I know that there are mistakes, but I just really don't give much a damn about criminals.

I'm well aware that I could just as easy end up on death row, as the next person. but I just believe that taking someone's life has to have a price. and sitting in a small cell, eating, drinking, and whatever else you do in prison is not enough.

[arwalden]

137. Thanks For The Reply

and follow up. C-ya round.

-- Allen

[MADem]

86. `In some states, appeal is automatic

...required, not optional, in cases of death sentences. Someone has to pay for it, and the odds are good that most people going through a death penalty trial will have spent a good portion of their available cash on attorney's fees.

[samtob]

94. Assuming that he does "care"

now. I am not an advocate for stringing him up without a trial don't get me wrong. But clearly this man (by his statement) just wanted to kill someone, he does not sound like an individual who will feel remorse or suffer over his actions while imprisoned. JMO

[NorthernSpy]

103. the way that people feel about this guy...

... is precisely the way that a lot of people in Iraq evidently feel about us: mortally outraged, and even entitled to some kind of lethal revenge against the guilty.

Such feelings are not themselves necessarily "wrong"; but the actions they inspire are extraordinarily destructive, and the overall result is usually just more horror all around.

The rage that we feel against the would-be killer of this woman is the exact same stuff that animates the people who shoot at her husband everyday. It's kind of startling, if you really think about it.

[Mike Daniels]

117. This is the type of person who thrives in prison

If he shot someone just because he wanted to I seriously doubt this guy has any significant capacity to feel remorse or regret.

[The Backlash Cometh]

4. I'm in shock.

But don't kill him. Put him in an institution where he'll be used as a lab rat to determine why someone would kill a stranger just for the pleasure of it.

[rodeodance]

6. and that institution would be the WH?

[The Backlash Cometh]

15. That ship has sailed.

Lots of cuckoo-cuckoos in this world, and they each have their own story.

[Gman]

5. So, extrapolating from your post, it appears to be safe to assume

that you're in favor of executing the mentally ill? Why? I feel executing the mentally ill is a sign of a backward society. A society that is hell bent on killing anyone or anything they do not like or do not understand. How do you feel about soldiers executing wounded enemy?

[RubyDuby in GA]

8. Show me where it says he's mentally ill.

He clearly said he just wanted to kill somebody.
Why not kill himself first and spare everyone else?

Sometimes we take our bleeding heart status a little too far....

[sandnsea]

27. yeah, that's normal behavior

What is it that makes you want to presume there are truly people out there just killing for the fun of it?

[RivetJoint]

33. Because there are...

[sandnsea]

34. Name one

I've never heard of a killing by a sane rational person, just for kicks. Not one. They've all ended up having some form of mental illness. It's just another right wing myth that allows people to not have to deal with the complexities of human behavior and our culture. Simple solutions, execute 'em all, to complex problems are never solutions at all.

[RivetJoint]

37. Oh, just about every murderer

who has ever been convicted. Otherwise they would be found not guily by reason of insanity. Don't confuse sociopathic behavior with insanity.

[sandnsea]

40. crazy is crazy

I don't buy the convoluted excuses to call crazy anything other than crazy. If a sociopath wasn't a sociopath, he wouldn't kill. He's crazy. Just keep sweeping the problems that our culture creates under the rug. Great solution.

[RivetJoint]

44. According to many psychologists

we all have SOME mental problems; we are still able to function "normally," or "near-normally," despite them.

Just because one kills, one is not insane. Most killers know the difference between right and wrong, and they choose to do wrong. The truely insane are those who are unable to comprehend the wrongness of their actions.

[sandnsea]

46. Keep telling yourself that

That'll really help reduce the murder rate. :eyes: Legal manipulations in order to justify executing more and more people is all you're spouting. Death penalty states have higher murder rates than the ones without them. Death penalty and war mentality countries have higher murder rates than those without it. We do have a culture of death in this country, it comes from dehumanizing people and justifying killing. Even as far as the self-defense 2nd Amendment argument. As if there just isn't any other way to live except to constantly think about killing or being killed. Just pathetic.

[RivetJoint]

47. Where, in any of my responses to you,

did I advocate the death penalty?

[sandnsea]

50. lol

Because we don't execute crazy people. That's the only reason those legal manipulations exist, to execute people. When you repeat them, you're part of the execution process, like it or not.

[RivetJoint]

53. No, you assumed that any murderer

must be insane, I pointed out you are wrong. I never said anything about advocating the death penalty.

[sandnsea]

64. Killing for kicks

I assumed that anybody who kills for kicks is insane. There are also the crimes of passion category, the gang killer who thinks he has a reason, to name two other scenarios. But the most heinous and senseless murders in this country are committed by those who have a mental illness. I don't care about legal semantics, that's the fact. And a society that won't even look at that fact and act accordingly, a society that prefers to just execute people willy-nilly, is a society that shouldn't be surprised when people decide killing is a solution.

As long as you perpetuate the bullshit, YOU are part of the execution. I notice you won't say that you are against the death penalty.

[RivetJoint]

71. What bullshit am I perpetuating?

That not all murderers are insane? How is that bullshit?

[sandnsea]

74. You're spinning

Ignoring what I've said. Refusing to admit the truth. You're an executor. Live with it.

[RivetJoint]

80. You jump to conclusions way too rapidly

I have not ignored you; just discarded your argument that states "if one believes that not all murders are insane, one necessarily supports the death penalty." That is an illogical argument.

[sandnsea]

125. No you're spinning

From my very first post, I've talked about people killing for kicks being crazy. "I've never heard of a killing by a sane rational person, just for kicks."

You're the one spinning it into me talking about every single murderer.

[okieinpain]

56. sorry, but some folks deserve to die. I just don't agree with the

save the murderers idea. you're probably right about the us having a culture of death in this country, and guns have a lot to do with that.

[sandnsea]

72. Save the culture

Has absolutely nothing to do with saving murderers.

The minute any one person thinks they have the right to decide who deserves to die, you've got a culture of death and some nut is going to decide YOU deserve to die. And there's nowhere to go from there except what we've got, the highest murder rate in the world. A culture that thinks war is good. A dying social conscience.

[prayin4rain]

92. Rivet Joint is right in that

psychologists decided to make as a criteria in the DSM that a persons behavior must be causing them stress and that they would like to change it, before you can label them with a mental disorder. This was actually done out of fear for the very thing that you are doing, which is assuming everyone who behaves in a way you don't understand--well, hell they must be crazy. And actually to be more specific it was so that homosexuality could not be labeled a "disorder" and homosexuals couldn't be called crazy and so people wouldn't go around saying things like "if a man wants to have sex with another man......HE MUST BE CRAAAZZZZYYYYY".

Also, many disoreders are genetic and it is like saying it is society's fault that people are born with any genetic problems. Just because we have more violent crime does not mean we have more "crazy" people than other countries. I agree, we have many social issues to tackle, and that something in our culture seems to spawn violence. I am in agreeance with you on that point.

Lastly, the crazy defense is often to determine if the man spends his sentence in prison or in a psychiatric hospital, and is not always about the death penalty

[sandnsea]

124. Another bizarre distortion

Again, name me a case where a person killing for kicks wasn't diagnosed with a mental disorder. A DSM mental disorder, exactly like I said.

Any criminal with a mental disorder should be in a psychiatric hospital, not a prison.

I'm for being honest about why people commit murder, not playing legal games in the name of law and order and tough on crime.

[prayin4rain]

129. I have no idea where I can get a list of murderers and their

psychological evaluations to see if one of them that killed for kicks hasn't been diagnosed with a mental disorder.

More questions I have for you is what if I write a hot check and I am clinically depressed? What if I get stopped for speeding and I have obsessive compulsive disorder? What if I get caught for robbing someone and I have a sociopathic personality disorder? What if I get caught with marijuana and I am agoraphobia? What if I get caught shoplifting and I have seperation anxiety disorder?

on edit-- your quote: "Any criminal with a mental disorder should be in a psychiatric hospital, not a prison. "

So, if you get convicted of a crime and have been diagnosed with a mental disorder you should serve a sentence in a psychiatric hospital? I really don't think that is a door any of us want to open. Get pulled over for speeding, you go to contest it, it is found that you were speeding (because you really were), and it comes out you have a panic disorder, so the state sentences you to a psych ward until the doctors clear you. But, hey you don't have to pay the fine or go to jail because you are obviously crazy because you were speeding and have been diagnosed with a mental disorder.

[sandnsea]

140. murder

I'm talking about murder. Why you want to go off on a tangent is beyond me. As if I ever said anything about people who speed. It's absolutely stupid and pointless. Yes, stupid.

Have you ever worked with prisoners? Have you? Do you have any idea how painful it is to see people get out who have mental illnesses that were never treated and try to help them deal with not only the mental illness but the shit that happened in prison too? Yes, mentally ill criminals belong in hospitals not prison. I can't imagine what kind of person would think a prison is a better option than a hospital, somebody who has no clue most likely.

[prayin4rain]

141. OK

To say criminals when you mean murderers is stupid, yes stupid. Obviously not every violent criminal is a murderer. Are rapist included in this? How about pedophiles? I am too stupid too understand what you classify as a criminal. So, since you clarified by criminals you mean murderers then this means you believe most MURDERERS belong in a hospital, right? (you're gonna have to help me I am pretty stupid)

I believe the entire prison system needs to be reformed. I believe most prisons in this country are cruel and unusual. I think it is absolutely RIDICULOUS that murderers, rapists and other violent criminals are not required to undergo therapy. Hell, aren't even offered it in most cases. It is just so ridiculously unbelievable that these people come in violent, live in a violent environment for however many years and are then dropped off at a bus station and expected to be normal citizens. And I do believe some people are in prison who need to be in psychiatric hospitals. However, I by no means think this applies to most murderers. Therapy yes OF COURSE, hospitilazation, no.

And I was a psych major and I have toured a state mental institution and yes if I was given the choice of prison or institution I would choose prison.

You seem to deny also the fact that the state cannot easily declare a person crazy is a blessing, not a bad thing.

[sandnsea]

142. Tour a prison

Then get back to me. We're almost on the same page, except you keep twisting what I'm saying and I have no idea why. I'll just add, a mental institution shouldn't be a place one would avoid. In addition, I'd rather be diagnosed correctly as mentally ill than labeled a convict. I can't imagine why you wouldn't prefer it and if you don't, reconsider your own prejudices if you're still consider psychiatry as a profession.

[RaleighNCDUer]

58. That is a legal definition, not a psychological definition.

A person could know very well that something is wrong, and still be unable to fight the compulsion to do that wrong.

Not knowing the difference between right and wrong is only indicative of the most extreme psychosis or schizophrenia, and says nothing to those who are rational yet still insane.

Are you suggesting that Dahlmer was sane, simply because he was aware that it is wrong to murder and eat people?

[RivetJoint]

60. I was using the legal definition.

Yes, Dahmer was sane.

[RaleighNCDUer]

68. That's just the point. The legal definition is drawn in such a way

as to support the death penalty, not to support mental health.

Dahlmer was batshit crazy, and there's not a psychiatrist in the world that would tell you different. He just didn't meet the legal definition of insane.

Recognise the disconnect there.

[RivetJoint]

75. There are MANY crimes

committed that require a legal determination of sanity, not just murder. The legal definition is drawn in such a way as to ensure those who knew adn appreciated the wrongness of their actions are punished, not to support the death penalty.

Dahmer knew what he was doing/did was wrong. He deserved punishement for his actions.

[okieinpain]

54. well, if you think about it we're all crazy. some people just don't

give a shit. me personally this lets save the mentally ill is a bunch of crap. if a person kills someone, he needs to be put down. I've always told my boy's that if they ever got to a point in their lives that they could just kill someone for nothing to let me know. that way I could put them out of their misery, I'd rather do the time (or execution), then for someone else's family to have to go through that pain.

[RaleighNCDUer]

52. Sociopathic behavior is insanity. By definition. n/t

[RivetJoint]

59. I'm sorry, I should have made it clear that I was using a legal

vice medical definition.

[RaleighNCDUer]

76. I understand that. I'm simply saying that there is an empirical

reality, outside the legal definition. By legal definition, a corporation is a person, but I can't shake it's hand.

As another poster said, crazy is crazy, and I don't believe we are doing ourselves any benefit by not acknowledging that.

[RivetJoint]

84. And the point is we are ALL

"crazy" to some extent. At what point though, does that "insanity" relieve us of the responsibility for our actions?

That's why we need a legal definition.

[prayin4rain]

39. Well, that arguement could be made for at least 60% of violent criminals

couldn't it? Well, they MUST be crazy, who would do such a thing? Anyway, I am sure the person who said that was speaking emotionally and for the woman and her baby. I bet if the poster was in charge of this man's fate they would do they right thing.

[sandnsea]

42. probably more

Which is my point. Doesn't mean you let them wander the streets. Means you deal with the truth. We're a society that creates more crazy people than most other societies. Until we deal with that fact, we're going to keep having rapists and murderers.

[Pithlet]

28. Bleeding Heart Status

Due process is such hippie dippie crap. You're right. Kill them all and sort it out later - aka vigilante justice - is the way to go! Revenge is much sweeter than justice. So a few innocents might get punished accidentally, it is so worth it. Bleeding hearts think too much. It's easier to give into emotion, and not think about it too much.

Seriously, I'm glad enough people take on the bleeding heart status with pride, and I am one. I like living in a society where everyone, no matter who they are, is entitled to pesky little things like due process. It actually makes us a safer and freer society. No one says you can't be outraged at what the guy did. But, statements like "We take bleeding heart status too far" sounds more to me like taking right wing vengeance vigilante status too far.

[George_S]

30. The murder rate is higher...

... in capital punishment states. It's not bleeding heart to want to see less murder victims.

[okieinpain]

49. thank you.

[Gman]

143. Ruby, Ruby, Ruby...

Do you think killing someone under these circumstances are the actions of a rational person? Does a reasonable, stable person just walk around and think, "Hmmm, It's a nice day today. I think I'll kill someone today. Yes, that would be nice."

Let me ask you how this murder is different from the killing of an unarmed, wounded but still breathing insurrgent in Fallujah by a finely trained US soldier? Do you see that there are huge differences? However, do you understand that if you argue that this poor soul that committed this murder because he wanted to was rational and sane, you cannot at the same time argue that the reason the soldier that killed that Iraqi did it was because he was under stress and in the "fog of war"? Why would the soldier be anymore mentally unstable than the guy that committed this murder? Who knows what was going on in the murderer's mind?

Bleeding heart status? I don't have any status that you might call a "bleeding heart" whatever that is. Ruby, life is not black and white. There are only a handful of certainties in life. As much as we would like it to be otherwise, we cannot compartmentalize different aspects of life in a way that makes sense to us but disregards the realities of life.

[xultar]

7. Rope, that's how people see us down here in GA a bunch of rope

carrying snaggle tooth ignorant knuckle draggers.

:eyes:

[RubyDuby in GA]

11. No different from anyone else anywhere else

If society wants to reward people who want to kill just because they can, they should go about it the correct way and "elect" him President.

And for your information, this post came from one the educated elite in this state who firmly believes in the death penalty when the criminal (and he is a criminal - let there be no mistaking this) is proven beyond a shadow of doubt forensically to be the murderer.

[Mandate My Ass]

12. No different?

It seems to me that your desire to see this man killed by the state is no different than his desire to kill that pregnant woman.

[RivetJoint]

24. Big difference

One was an innocent, one is not...

[Mandate My Ass]

45. I'm sure he thought he had a good justification for killing

just like yourself obviously. Don't pretend it's about justice when it's just vengeance you seek. It's dehumanizing to declare someone is not worthy to live and if you're fine with that, just don't expect the violence to end. The DP is no deterrant and violent crimes go up in the aftermath of an execution.

He's obviously crazy but don't let that get in the way of a good ole ritual killing, especially when it makes people feel all warm and fuzzy and self-righteous.

[RivetJoint]

51. Umm

According to the news story he did not think he had a justification other than he just "wanted to."

Guess what? Some people ARE not worthy to live, IMHO.

[Mandate My Ass]

57. "wanting to" is a justification

and yes, your opinion is very humble.

I hope you like that high judgement seat you've perched yourself upon. I hope for your sake nobody gets a higher one.

[RivetJoint]

63. No, that is not justification

The fact that he said he "Just wanted to" means he had no reason, no justification. And, if you break into my house, attempt to kill me, and in the process I shoot and kill you, you DESERVED to die. I think most will agree with me on that. Some people DO deserve to die.

[Mandate My Ass]

78. It's not only a justification

it's a demonstration that this person cannot reason and does not consider or understand the consequences of his actions. Those who receive the death penalty are required to understand what is going to happen to them and why it's going to happen. This is someone who should be in a mental hospital, not death row.

[RivetJoint]

87. So you are a psychiatrist?

AND you can diagnose a person's condition from a newspaper article?

[Mandate My Ass]

89. You're the one who is making all the claims about

what is and is not insanity.

They set the bar very low to test for competence level required to be eligible the death penalty so that any lay person could understand it. It's a pretty simple assessment and this person obviously does not meet it.

[RivetJoint]

90. What "claims" have I made about what is and is not insanity?

I pointed out the legal definition (Appreciation of the wrongness of one's actions (short version)).

How do YOU know the competence of the person in question? Are you trained to do so? Have you examined him?

[Mandate My Ass]

91. I gave a simple definition of competence

and applied his response to the discovery of his crime to the required criteria. He didn't measure up.

You've been making lots of claims on this thread. When you provide me with your credientials to pass those judgements and make those pronouncements I will provide mine.

[RivetJoint]

93. How did he not measure up?

Are you saying that every person who admits to a crime without a good reason for committing said crime is incompetent? So now one is incompetent for telling the truth?

[Mandate My Ass]

95. And you are saying Jeffrey Dahmer was sane

:wtf: I guess we have different evaluation methods.

[RivetJoint]

96. Re-read my post

He was found legally sane, and sentenced to prison.

[Mandate My Ass]

97. Oh right "legally sane"

so was the guy who was executed who stated he was saving the pie from his last meal for "after the execution."

I'm not impressed with legal definitions of insanity when those who determine it are working for the state that is determined to execute people.

[RivetJoint]

100. So all judges are all determined to execute people?

Once again you miss another larger point though, the sanity determination is used FAR more often in NON-DP cases than in DP cases. Your whole argument flies out the window in face of that fact.

[Mandate My Ass]

101. I missed nothing. I've heard it all and it's garbage.

If anyone is ignoring glaringly obvious but uncomfortable facts about how egregiously flawed the DP process is, it's you. It's the bloodthirstiness that gets in the way of critical thinking.

[RivetJoint]

102. Again, what bloodthirstiness?

I have not said one thing pro or con the death penalty--I have avoided it.

I'm merely asserting that you can NOT call a person insane SOLELY because they murdered someone else.

[Mandate My Ass]

104. You didn't have to say it, it's quite obvious.

You'be been a busy little apologist for the flawed legal system throughout this entire thread.

[RivetJoint]

106. Really?

How so? By supporting a legal standard to establish "sanity" before pronouncing guilty and perhaps subsequent punishment on an accused? What should we do? Assume EVERYONE who commits a crime is insane and send them all to mental wards?

[Mandate My Ass]

108. I notice you conspicuously ignored

the part about Rickie Ray Rector being deemed mentally competent to be executed although he claimed he was saving his pie for afterwards and how that met the "legal" criteria for sanity. What you don't say and what you ignore is often more telling than all your explicit protestations that you don't have an agenda to promote.

[RivetJoint]

109. How long was he on death row?

Was he legally competent at the TIME of his crime AND at the time of his trial? Was he faking at the time of his execution, or was he really so insane as not to be able to understand what was happening? or did a proper authority weighing all available evidence judge him "competent?" I don't know the answer to ANY of those, and I doubt you do either. Like it or not, we entrust judges to make those decisions. Sometimes they get it wrong...I wish they didn't, especially when the outcome could be death.

[Mandate My Ass]

118. The outcome *was* death

"Sometimes they get it wrong...I wish they didnt"

That's just nauseating. Bye. Thanks for playing. :hurts:

[RivetJoint]

120. Why is it nauseating?

It's a fact of life. People die from mistakes all the time...deal with it.

[RaleighNCDUer]

65. And we're supposed to take his words at face value?

Perhaps he's depressive and wants to commit suicide, and this way he lets the state do it. Is that sane?

[RivetJoint]

70. Perhaps you read too much into it

If he wanted to commit suicide he could have shot himself and not killed an innocent.

[Pithlet]

35. Then you should know

that beyond a shadow of a doubt is impossible in a system that relies on human beings, because human beings are fallible. Forensic evidence can be tampered with. Public defenders can fall asleep during trial. Direct eyewitness testimony, which prosecutors and juries seem to love, is notoriously unreliable. There is no way to ensure 100% that an innocent person will never be put to death.

With hang-em high Bush in charge and primed to select new supreme court members, who have already ruled that innocence is NOT a reason to overturn a death penalty sentence (I'm not making that up), I don't know how anyone can still advocate the death penalty. I don't think it takes an "educated elite" to understand that.

[sandnsea]

43. reward people???

What kind of crazy shit is that? How the hell is locking somebody away for the rest of his life rewarding them?

[AP]

13. If the guy's admission to the police is admissable evidence at trial...

then there won't be a trial. This guy's going to plea bargain...unless of course the state asks for the death penalty (if the victim dies) and in that case there will be a big, expensive trial with lots of appeals.

[Pithlet]

31. That's like saying

I don't believe in Santa, but I love it when he leaves me presents every year.

If you seriously advocate skipping trials, and this isn't just a shocked reaction to a horrible crime, then you do not advocate due process.

[donheld]

41. Get a rope?

This will solve what except your/our anger and need for revenge.

[Jack_DeLeon]

139. It solves many things...

not the least of which is the public's need for revenge.

It will remove a murderer from the world.

That murderer will have no chance to ever commit another crime once he is dead.

Hell it will be one less person in the world who will just take up space and waste resources.

[Democracy Died 2004]

98. Cool then you are willing to give up your due process?

This is great. One step closer to the end of freedom and democracy, man this is getting good.

[Blue_Tires]

2. don't let the gungeon see this

j/k

[KingChicken]

9. She will survive and the guy will never know what its like to kill someone

Real nut cases start to come out of the wood during war. It would be nice if the soldiers diden't have to worry about shooting back at home too, i'm sure her husband is getting shot at in Iraq enough for all three of them.

[UpInArms]

10. it appears that ignorance

was this cretin's strongpoint

According to the York School District, Gomez dropped out of the ninth grade in 2003. A spokesperson said Gomez didn't attend much school.

violence begets violence, begets violence.

Somehow when war is a video game and violence is okay but peace is not, we fail to teach and fail to reach - this is a tragedy in all ways.

:(

[Atlant]

14. Ahh -- the next Lacie Peterson arrives!

I knew it wouldn't be long; gotta keep the rubes from thinking
about anything real.

Atlant

[concord]

16. And if she dies, will he be tried for double murder? eom

[AlCzervik]

19. Most likely...yes

I live just a tad south of Sacramento and there was a guy who just killed his pregnant sister, he shot her and she and the fetus died instantly, some dispute with sisters husband who was also shot. I believe he will be tried on 2 counts, i think she was 8 months along.

[bendeminga]

36. I certainly hope so. N/T

[chiburb]

38. No, that would be Robert Blake. Not this one. n/t

[w4rma]

17. Her husband should have been at home with her. (nt)

[madmax]

21. He should have enlisted in the Armed Services

"according to police -- he wanted to kill somebody". Level the playing field. The enemy would have a chance to kill his ass, too. What did this defenseless pregnant do to him? The country has gone mad.

[wicket]

22. "The country has gone mad."

Amen to that.

[demnan]

23. Tragic

How do you think a person has grown up who would have that cold a motive for killing someone?

Honestly, I don't believe in the death penalty, though, because in case there is a God I don't want some state worker going to hell for performing an execution on someone who didn't harm him.

[KenCarson]

29. it's another episode of SICK SAD WORLD nt

...

[chiburb]

32. People, I don't get it...

Tragic, yes. But how is this any more tragic than the killings that take place every day in this country? We don't post all the others in LBN, why this one? Because her husband was in Iraq? So if he'd been home or at the bar would this even be discussed here?

I'm confused as to why this is LBN, but I'm open to suggestions...

[colonel odis]

55. i'm surprised they haven't spun it as a democrat harming someone

whose husband is gloriously serving his country in that fine, noble war in iraq that will keep us safe from turrism.

i can only imagine how bad her husband feels, too. anyone would be nervous about being half a world away from his pregnant wife. then to have something awful like this happen, wow. they've got to let him come home to tend to things and be with her.

and for the crowd who wants instant revenge and feels the need for someone to die because of this, maybe you should take your own life. go hang or shoot your own selves. neanderthal thinking like that doesn't help society much. get out of the gene pool and get your rocks off by killing someone at the same time.

[okieinpain]

62. well why don't you do the same, just because someone disagrees

with you doesn't mean their (our) opinion isn't worthy. green tea drinker.

[colonel odis]

82. green tea drinker? i guess that's supposed to be a slam of some sort.

does it mean i'm stupid and like antioxidants? or i'm one of those dumbasses who eats in japanese restaurants?

my mind probably doesn't zip along as quickly as yours does. maybe you could explain why calling me a "green tea drinker" is supposed to be an insult.

[wicket]

88. yeah, what was that supposed to mean??

Green tea is great, you can't get a much healthier drink than that.

[okieinpain]

107. hell yeah, it's a slam. you know you green tea drinkers think you're

better then the rest of us pop drinkers. I bet you even stick out your little pinkie huh!

[colonel odis]

122. oh, ok. i didn't realize you had called me such an awful name.

i should just be glad you didn't resort to calling me a Big Doo-Doo or a Poopy Head.

[xpunkisneatx]

66. You guys are disgusting...

First of all, this happened about 30 minutes from where I live and it has been all over the news, so I know a bit more about the story. The assailant has been described by his family as someone who is deeply disturbed, always sits alone in his room in the dark, not trusted with nieces and nephews...etc. The fact that some of you feel he should die for this crime is ludacris. Obviously, none of you have ever dealt with a mental disorder and do not realize how it can change a person. I myself was diagnosed with OCD when i was 12. I feel that there is obviously something wrong with this man and killing him is not going to solve anything. Perhaps, maybe by institutionalizing him and putting him through therapy, one can find the reason for his dangerous personality. I am against the death penaly in every way. How many people have been let off of death row because they were found to be innocent? How many innocent people were wrongly executed? I don't feel it is our right to say that because someone "supposedly" committed a felony that they should be executed. Especially when that person has a mental illness. Maybe if this man got help he could be rehabilitated. So take your heads out of your asses and see what you are really saying...

[okieinpain]

69. man you anti-death penalty people sure are violent.

[xpunkisneatx]

81. Excuse me?

I don't understand what you mean by that.

[okieinpain]

99. you do know that removing one's head from his ass can be painful

"Especially when that person has a mental illness. Maybe if this man got help he could be rehabilitated. So take your heads out of your asses and see what you are really saying..."

[xpunkisneatx]

113. Silly me..

I figured that would be a relief rather than a painful process...

[progressivebydesign]

73. No.. we should make sure he gets meds..

..then he can be released into a halfway house, legally refuse to take meds, and kill someone else. OCD never killed another person, and you know it. When someone acts out violently, they are criminally insane.. and should never see the light of day again. If that guy was not allowed around his neices and nephews, and obviously was ill.. then WHY do you think he could suddenly be treated and live a normal life now?

I'm not saying he should be summarily executed, but I'm having a REALLY hard time understanding how anyone could think he could be rehabilitated.

[xpunkisneatx]

79. I see what you are saying...

But you are honestly stereotyping people. (And yes, OCD has killed people...Many people have obsessive thoughts of killing others and/or themselves.) Who says this man cannot be rehabilitated? Have they tried yet? You cannot make such general statements like that, it shows your ignorance.

[Jack_DeLeon]

138. Mental illness should not be an excuse for murder...

I personally dont care how "disturbed" someone is, if they commit murder they should face the same punishments as any "normal" person.

That includes the death penalty.

[Blue_Tires]

83. where the hell did he get a shottie, anyways??

[pinniped]

123. He's very lucky these guys aren't around...

[ibegurpard]

127. Here's what doesn't sit right with me about this story:

"A Pennsylvania man is charged with shooting thepregnant wife of a soldier in Iraq, just because--according to police--he wanted to kill somebody."
Now what I want to know is why is it necessary to point out that the woman was a "pregnant wife of a soldier in Iraq?" They clearly state in the article he was looking to shoot someone, picked her out at random and didn't know her. So the effect of this story is to generate outrage in a climate where we have a population pumped up to support the military when the particulars of the crime have nothing to do with it. That's inflammatory "journalism" ... but of course I have to say it doesn't surprise me.

[haunce]

135. Killing

When are we just going to ban them Goddamned guns. For Christs fuckin sakes:evilfrown:

[Bridget Burke]

144. Don't worry, you're safe for a few more years.

Of course, once the Dems do regain power, you do know that we're coming for all your guns!

(The NRA tells you so.)

[wicket]

145. kick

:kick:

[The Animator]

146. As far as the AF pilot deserving to die?

This is how it seems to me, no, the pilot does not deserve to die.

Yes it is an illegal war, yes the American armed forces are commiting countless attrocities. However some of those soldiers simply do not have a much of a choice in the matter. A soldier may refuse an illegal order, or to carry out orders in an illegal war, but half of this country does not currently recognized this as an illegal war.

We know it's wrong, everyone in the rest of the world knows it's wrong. But half of our fellow citizens have been duped into thinking it's A OK. Therefore the illegality of the war itself is technically undecided. The "jury" as it were, is still out to lunch.

Until then any soldier who refuses to fight, or refuses an order he believes to be illegal, or unjust, may find himself in a very sticky situation. Since it is a crime to refuse an order in the military, he can suffer greatly for making the right decision. A soldier can be prosecuted as a criminal not NOT killing someone.

A classic catch 22.

Imagine you are a pilot who joined the Air Force during the 2nd Clinton administration, you signed on for eight years, since those willing to make a long commitment receive better treatment. The 2000 election happens and this fucktard gets selected. Well he may be an idiot, be he's your commander in cheif like it or not cause that's what your higher ups tell you. Then this whole Iraq mess gets started. You didn't want to go to Iraq, you thought it was a bad idea from the very beggining, but your in the military, and you have to go where you are told, if you don't you get into big trouble, unless of coarse your dad is a senator.

Your only consolation is that you have one more year to go and your done. You liked being in the military when Clinton was in office but things have changed and you want out. You are ordered to bomb many targets, and you do, very well you might add. You did not choose your targets, those targets are chosen for you. Those targets were chosen based on "darn good inteligent". Turns out that some of those targets weren't very intelligent choices, there were innocent civilians in there, women, children. It sucks, and the video footage of the victims comming out of the building to bomed turns your stomach, and it will haunt you for the rest of your days. The next day your superiors order you to do it all over again.

You do as your told cause your in the military and that's what your there for. It really sucks, you don't want to do this, but if you refuse you'll be thrown in the stockade or brig (military jail). It's now 2004, you only have a couple weeks left and you're done. One of you buddies get's a care package and included with it is a bootleg copy of Farenheit 9/11. Your blood boils as you watch the film, and everything in it rings true. You now know beyond any shadow of a doubt that your counrty's been had. You had your doubts about the war before, but now you know the truth. This whole war was a lie, and a crime. You now realize that you are a war criminal.

When your next flight assignment comes up you refuse. You tell you superior officer that you can no longer in good conciense continue you duty here in Iraq. Your superior does not immediately fly off the handle, he has encountered this before and he reminds you that refusing an order in the military is a criminal offense. You can be court-martialed, imprisoned, maybe even executed? And after all that, you will be dishonorably discharged from the military.

A dishonorable discharge is not something you want to have to deal with, especially if after your military service you have to find a job in the private sector. Military service is usually a good thing to have on your resume, employers like to have people who are diciplined and good at following orders. A dishonorable discharge however, is a serious red flag, it almost like marking the felony conviction box on your application. A dishonorable discharge in a sure fire way to never get another decent high paying job.

You'll need a high paying job when you get out. Your eight years of loyal service to the military would put you at a distinct advantage over non-military applicants at almost any job. Once you out you can also cash in on your G.I. bill, you can finally go to college. You're wife called, the baby is doing fine but the bills are piling up and soon there going to shut off the power.

The choice is simple, either you act on principle, and condemn your family to a life of poverty while you serve out your term in a military prison, and when you finally get out spend the rest of your days digging through the trash too feed your family, or you continue too kill Iraq women and children for Haliburton and friends, thus solidifying your status as a war criminal and reserving your spot in the ninth level of hell.

Oh.. decisions, decisions, decisions...

Please don't blame soldiers for the crimes of their superiors, yes some of them take the initiative and become criminals in their own right, but most are caught between Iraq and a hard place.