Dean's ignorant stand on trade

[ModerateMiddle]

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/opinion/article/0,1299,DRMN_38_2240849,00.html

Howard Dean has a Catch-22 idea that would be a sure formula for keeping impoverished nations impoverished.

The former Vermont governor, now a Democratic presidential candidate, says the United States should not trade with these poor countries unless they enact the same sorts of labor and environmental standards as exist here. But of course they are incapable of doing that until they get richer, and one of the few ways they will get richer is through trade with us, which he would rule out.

Tough luck, poor people.

snip...

Dean is pretty much an unknown quantity in the country at large, but he will become known in a hurry if he is sitting on top of the Democratic heap after the initial primaries, as some are predicting. In the meantime, he might want to acquaint himself with the field of economics.

(more at link)

Now, this is a pretty inflammatory article, but it does point out some of my serious concerns about a Dean Presidency. What works economically in Vermont (with a huge amount of federal aid) does not translate smoothly to what will work in this vast and very complex nation.

[joeybee12]

1. Consider the source

Rocky Mountain News editorials are written by Rove. The RMN is simply a mouthpiece for the RNC. They've attacked Dean before--shows the Repukes believe he can beat Bush! They're running scared.

[Hawkeye-X]

2. I agree.

RMN has a right-wing slant on it. I ignore everything on the paper and head for sports.

Hawkeye-X

[paulk]

24. I have to agree

RMN isn't worth the paper it's printed on. I'm surprized to see them going after Dean so early in the race. They must consider him legit.

[Maple]

3. Inflamatory or not

'Planted' or not...it is correct.

Poor or third world countries are also well aware this idea is 'protectionism' thinly disguised as 'noble concern.'

[ModerateMiddle]

5. Thanks for actually addressing the content of the article

Too often nowadays, any article in any source is automatically suspect if they point out any inconsistencies or perhaps wrong-headedness in Howard Dean.

"Kill the messenger!"

[Maple]

9. LOL Well you won't get very far on here

with it, because people want to believe this kind of thing.

Dean is being political, not economic when he makes these remarks, which is of course why he makes them.

It's the kind of thing you quietly dump once in office.

Americans want jobs and job security, and they'll currently follow anyone who promises that...even when the promise...and the premise... is actually unworkable.

Fear produces protectionism...and this is a thinly disguised way of offering it.

The Third world countries figured it out long ago...so have Americans, they just don't like to admit it because they want jobs whatever the cost.

[liberalmuse]

11. I consider the source...

whenever I see 'Kerry' avatar on someone slamming Dean, which is all the time, these days. This usually means you can't build up your own candidate, so you're trying to take someone else's down. There are some reasons I won't back Kerry unless he is the last resort, but I don't go around posting derogatory articles about him, because I figure anyone who is supporting him are familiar with his platform and past record, and have their own reasons for doing so. Yes, just like Dean supporters.

[Maple]

12. Actually

I'd support Dean over most of the others.

But you have to recognize political rhetoric when you hear it.

No matter the candidate.

[joeybee12]

6. Bullshit!

That's all I have, or need, to say to that argument.

[illini]

4. HEY!!!!!!! This is the same opinion that was in my local paper????????????

Not totally the same but similar context and verbage. The journal courier is the name of the paper. It is basically a rightwing rag!!!!!!!! :smoke:

[salin]

15. could you post it or post a link? We have seen letter to the editors

astroturf (where the GOP sends the words to write - and the same letters to the editor appear all over the country - supposedly from local folks - has embarrassed some papers).

Haven't heard of Editorial astroturf - if the wording is very close - that might be very, very interesting.

[paulk]

25. I wonder if they got it from GOP team leader

that would be REALLY interesting

[BlueEyedSon]

36. Scripps newspapers: same owner, same opinion

Abilene Reporter-News
The Albuquerque Tribune
Anderson Independent-Mail
Birmingham Post-Herald
The Cincinnati Post
The Commercial Appeal (Memphis)
Corpus Christi Caller-Times
Daily Camera (Boulder)
Evansville Courier & Press
The Gleaner (Henderson)
The Knoxville News-Sentinel
Naples Daily News
Redding Record Searchlight
Rocky Mountain News (Denver)
San Angelo Standard-Times
The Stuart News
The Sun (Bremerton)
The Tribune (Ft. Pierce)
Ventura County Star
Vero Beach Press Journal
Wichita Falls Times Record News

http://www.scripps.com/corporateoverview/businesses/newspaper/index.shtml

[Larkspur]

7. And what's wrong with demanding that other nations raise their workers'

living standards and environmental treatment policies?

Or do you enjoy buying things made with slave labor?

[Maple]

10. Hokum

it's a good living in other countries, not slavery.

They won't be able to pay 'your' wages for years yet.

[Romberry]

14. Define "good"

No, it isn't a "good living" in these countries. It is poverty and slave wages.

My first concern is America and Americans. I'll worry more about others after we take care of our own.


Dean is absolutely right. We need FAIR TRADE, not free trade that is nothing but a race to the bottom for 95% of America's workers.

[Maple]

16. Yeah, it's a good living

It means housing and food and clothing and education

Much cheaper as well in other countries.

At least you're honest with your 'America first'

Like I said, it's protectionism

Self-defeating in the long run, but it sounds good in an election campaign.

[Romberry]

20. Yours is a post of someone who has never...

...been overseas. It is NOT a "good living" in the third world countries with workers earning pennies. Anyone that says so is just talking out of their a$$.

[Maple]

21. Yours is a post of someone who has never

gotten beyond ideology.

I didn't say it would get them a 3 bedroom in the burbs with a swimming pool and home movie theater.

I said it gives them shelter and food and other basic necessities ...which they currently don't have.

As yes, as a matter of fact, I have been there.

[Classical_Liberal]

32. yours is a post of someone who uses Orwell as a text book

They currently don't have it and never will, so long as they let the rich in their countries have it. It is the wealthy of the Developing countries that have a tendency to get on Western TV and whine about how raising the standard is thinly disguised protectionism. They are also the people businessman are more likely to meet in foriegn countries. Many parts of the developing countries and their wealthy are part of the legacy of Colonialism. A certain percentage of the native population did very well under those systems while the rest of the nation was impoverished. They are looking for a new sugar daddy to replace England and Spain.

The fact is you third way types say "Get beyond ideology, like the Roman Catholics do the sign of the Cross. It is really hilarious. It is like saying "Peace through War"

Globalization in many cases was just a reworking of the Colonialist ideal.

[Romberry]

37. Sorry but if...

...you had actually "been there" you would not call working for slave wages "good". Dean's position will do more to help workers in these countries than all the "free traders" in the world put together.

[alarimer]

41. fine

But many of those jobs have been exported from the US because the evil corporations wanted to save a few bucks. So we lose our jobs so some teenager in the Taiwan can make $2/day making clothes for Walmart. And there are some horror stories about the working conditions in a lot of those factories. It IS practically slave labor in many cases.

[otohara]

8. Colorado For Dean Has Asked

we write a letter. Actually it was my idea at the Dean meetup to attack the media when they attack Dean. Guess they took my advice: The news has many a subscribers, even though it's a rightwing rag.

[e-mail]

[ieoeja]

13. I am starting to rethink this.

I started thinking, "how did the United States emerge from a third world style economy in which the wealthy had everything and the poor nothin?"

The answer is, of course, when we instituted minimum wage and other labor laws. The wealth followed the law, not the other way around. Trickle UP economics does work.

Not to say I believe a country like Mexico can afford OUR minimum wage yet. But they can afford a minimum wage. Also, other issues like the 40 hour work week, child labor laws, the right to organize, etc are less directly connected to a country's economic base.

Actually, that right to organize is where I would like to see a candidate go. If the government is going to protect the rights of business to cross borders freely, then it should protect the rights of unions to do the same. Progressives championed free trade for two centuries for reasons of decency. Conservatives only signed on recently when they realized they could turn it to their advantage. In that respsect, today's unions are more conservative than progressive. So appeal to their greed. "Hey, Teamsters, there are a billion potential dues paying members south of the border. Wha' da' ya' say we go sign some up?"

[Maple]

17. The theory here of course...

is that if you can force Company X to pay the same in poor countries as they do in the US, the company will say...'gosh I might just as well stay in the US' and voila you'll have jobs back.

Of course the company might also say 'gosh, why bother with the US at all then?'...and move everything to the other countries, and then you won't have any jobs at all.

[Classical_Liberal]

30. Who is going to buy his products if not American

your full of baloney.

[T_i_B]

31. How about the EU?

[Classical_Liberal]

33. The ordinary people in the EU have less tolerance

for losing their industrial base and social safety nets than Americans. With the exception of Tony Blair's England and he has obviously worn out his welcome.

[On the Road]

38. No One's Expecting 3d World Countries to Match US Wages

offering a living wage will not raise wages to anywhere near US levels.

[greensea928]

22. Not to mention job loss

The worst consequence of the low wages in other countries is, of course, job loss in the U.S. Why should a company, whose main interest is the bottom line, pay far more for labor that they can get cheaply elsewhere? First it was the manufacturing, lately it's even the white collar jobs. Customer support? You're calling india. Programmers? Why pay 60,000 per year when you can pay 10,000? It makes sense to the stockholders, and as long as it does, jobs will continue to flow out of the U.S.

[fujiyama]

27. well said

I think it's important to call a flip-flop on an issue when you see one.

In this case it's clear Dean flopped on this issue. At first he said "American standards" a while back in a Wash Post article. Then he said "minimum standards". I agree there should be some minimum standards, but to think developing countries will just pay $5 an hour is ridiculous. American standards may not be European standards, but they're still higher than most of the world.

For example I remember reading about a case where there was a multinational corporation in a developing nation (Thailand I think), where there were many girls working there. The corporation was forced out for some reason. Ultimately many of the girls ended up on the streets -- as child prostitutes.

Granted neither situation is good, because it's likely the conditions at what was most likely a sweatshop were pretty crappy...But still, I would think sweatshops beat child prostitution and the problems that come with that.

Also how do we expect developing nations to have the same enviornmental standards as us. Clean technology costs money and we are cheap when it comes to helping other nations out on these sorts of things. I think it would be unimaginable for people to imagine how disgusting and polluted western cities were about a hundred years ago. We can't expect these nations to just follow our standards and everything magically changes.

It's simply unreasonable. It's like the whole dispute over intellectual property patent rights over pharmacueticals developed in third world countries. How do we expect people in Africa to pay so much for drugs? Even 10K dollars/year in India or Mexico is a lot of money. This can buy people a decent life.

The left should be about compassion for people the world over. I agree when it comes to outsourcing, it's simply corporate greed, but ultimately fair trade and free trade will go hand in hand (and should), but I protectionism is a failed idea.

Policies by Western govts is partly responsible for the poor state of many developing nations. Things like farm subsidies and tarrifs are hurting the developing world more than free trade.

Minimum standards (labor, enviornmental, etc) are an absolute MUST. But these standards should be constructed realistically and according to that enviornment in which it is being applied.

[library_max]

18. "My Candidate Sucks So Bad That I Have To Attack Yours"

All hail CoffeePlease1947! He has come up with the perfect formula for dispelling all these negative campaign threads! All you Dean-bashers, Kerry-bashers, any-Democrat-bashers, please repeat after me: “MY CANDIDATE SUCKS SO BAD THAT I HAVE TO ATTACK YOURS.”

If I were a Bush supporter, I would be ROFLMAO to see all these Democrats ripping each other to pieces. My candidate in the general election is Anybody But Bush. As for the primaries, I haven’t decided yet. Amazing, ain’t it? Considering that the primaries are only six months away.

Come on, ladies and gentlemen! Unity, please! Eyes on the prize! BUCK FUSH!

[Maple]

19. Please review

Post # 12

[baby_bear]

23. They should all be talking about agricultural subsidies in the West

These are the true impediments to poor countries in their efforts to market their own agriculture products. They don't get the subsidies that the U.S. and Europe pour on their own agriculture producers. It's an abomination, but most politicians are afraid to take it on.

These subsidies make a joke out of the terms "free" or "fair" trade.

s_m

[Maple]

26. Agreed

Agricultural subsidies are a huge stumbling block and have to be removed.

Rich countries don't want to do that, but it's what the current round of WTO talks are all about

On edit:

"The average cow in Europe earns more per day in subsidies (around $2) than the total daily income of the average cattle owner in West Africa. America's 25,000 cotton farmers received over $3 billion in subsidies last year, and can therefore undersell the 11 million people in West Africa who depend on cotton for their main source of income."

http://www.gwynne-dyer.com/

Only place I can find the column that doesn't require payment or registration.

[baby_bear]

28. The fact that the subject is on the WTO table is good, I guess

But I really don't expect any of the big boys to back down, do you? The might toss a bent nickel the way of the developing countries, but that's about it.

At least I have been seeing quite a bit of this in the mainstream press (op/ed columns) lately, so maybe it will start to sink it with people.

That's assuming they read the op-ed sections.

*sigh*

s_m

[T_i_B]

29. I agree with you and Sierra_moon.

International minimum wage idea may sound good at first but in pratice it would simply price millions in the third world out of work. Protectionism throught the back door.

What is needed is reform of agricultural subsidies. The European Common Agricultural Policy is just insane for starters. If we are serious about helping the third world then allowing them to trade on a level playing field in agriculture would be a great start.

And just for some more info, here is my thread the the UK Guardian's trade supplement which was in my paper on Monday

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=103&topic_id=9955

[Classical_Liberal]

34. Why don't we just tell them to stop selling their people

to WTO? Why do we have to sell ourselves to the WTO, just because they did?

[T_i_B]

40. The WTO is all done by consent

So there must be something in it if all these poor nations WANT to sign up to all this. I admit that If you hate free trade you will probably never support the WTO (although Fidel Castro does). But it is not as undemocratic as you might think.

All agreements are reached by consensus. Every country has a veto - unlike at the UN, where only big powers do - and WTO agreements are ratified by parliament.The organisation is held to account mainly through government, but also through contacts with MPs, trade unions, business and NGOs, through the media, and through its website - on which most working documents appear rapidly.

Even so, the WTO still needs improvement. It is very important that the WTO is reformed to make it less secret and more accountable to the world public. Nonetheless it is still be best option that we have. The WTO, often portrayed as the vanguard of untrammelled globalisation, is quite the opposite. In a way, the WTO is the UN for trade, with the crucial difference that all countries have a seat in its Security Council. That is the best bulwark against unilateralism.

[baby_bear]

44. But too much is done in secrecy

There is no transparency, item 1. Item 2, decisions regarding challenges of one country or industry upon another are done in private, without accountability, in small groups appointed by, I don't know who, but the small guys are left out.

Someone else who knows more, please fill in the blanks. This is what I understand about the process, i.e., it is secretive, and it is weighted economically toward the developed Western countries.

How can that not be at best, suspect?

s_m

[BlueEyedSon]

35. Same newpaper owners or "syndicated editorial"? (media consolidation)

Using Google, I found 17 copies of this piece at various newpaper web sites. The author, Jay Ambrose, is director of editorial policy for Scripps Howard Newspapers (email: [e-mail] ). I suppose Scripps Howard owns all these newspapers. If you Google his name you can find his other scary editorials......

Gotta keep fighting media consolidation!

[copithorne]

39. This isn't Dean's stand on trade

He doesn't think they need to meet American standards. Just some standards.

[Ardee]

42. Doea anyone really know what time it is?,Does anyone really care

SLAVES TO TRADE?
Will 'Free Trade' Serve Humankind Or Will We Serve It?
Here's a question for the World Trade Organization ministers gathering in
Cancun: Why has 'free trade' gone so wrong?
http://www.tompaine.com/op_ads/opad2.cfm/ID/8834


AND READ THESE OP AD FEATURES...


WHOSE TRADE ORGANIZATION?
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This week's WTO meeting in Cancún is not just about obscure trade policy,
it's about the future of the global economy.
http://www.tompaine.com/feature2.cfm/ID/8838

[Martin Eden]

43. Thanks for the links, Ardee!

Especially the 2nd one:

<snip>
Wealthy nations want to expand the so-called "Washington Consensus," an unabashedly pro-corporate agenda that's shaped many world trade policies and laws in recent years. This "consensus" has undermined the role of government regulation of the market; has established new property rights and protections for corporations; and has given the private sector access to public trust assets such as genetic materials and water.

Amazingly, this is merely the beginning of a bigger blueprint. The wealthiest nations are pushing for controversial provisions of the North American Free Trade Agreement to be adopted by the WTO. These so-called "new issues" include expansive investor rights and rules allowing international standards to supplant domestic laws, such as public health and environmental legislation.

The less-wealthy countries have a totally different agenda. These nations want the WTO to just deal with trade -- and do so in a way that benefits all nations. While they differ on what comprises fair trade rules, they are united in opposing any expansion of the WTO into the "new issues" -- because most of these "new issues," such as intellectual property law, are seen as only benefiting wealthier nations. In contrast, the agenda that the developing countries tried to raise at Doha -- seeking progress on many social and quality of life issues -- have been largely ignored by the WTO administration.

[fabius]

45. So the WTO works on trade?

NAFTA works? The WTO, IMF and World Bank have not led to accelerating impoverishment of poor nations?

Tell me that the Clinton and Bush free trade system works. Clinton at least was consistently for free trade, Bush is selectively in a way that screws poor countries.

Dean can be educated on trade, because is can face the facts.

Bush can't be educated on anything because he knows the answers he wants already and is immune to facts.

We desperately need a President that can face facts and put ideology aside.