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RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-05 12:30 PM
Original message
Fineman: Reconsidering Iraq
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8144280/

I’m sitting here with a gloomy letter from Iraq, written by a high-ranking officer I cannot name in a branch of service I cannot name in a part of the country I cannot name. But trust me, because I trust him. Iraqis, he says, have no feel for or belief in the democracy we want to create, and our occupation is making them less, not more, capable of self-government.

“Our eventual departure,” he worries, “will leave nothing but cosmetic structure here.” “Every mission,” he writes, “requires a conscious escape from the resignation that there is nothing here to win and every occasion to fail.”

Small miracles do happen – a child is saved, a generator is installed. There remain “possibilities.” But sullen eyes along the roadsides give this officer “the feeling that we have stayed too long but can not leave.”

You can dismiss this as understandable but misleading musings of an officer who has seen too many men killed, and who doesn’t see the “big picture.” But what exactly IS the big picture? That’s the dominant question as our next political cycle – the one that culminates in the 2008 election – begins.

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hatrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-05 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
1. Sky blue, Howard the Duck discovers
Impressive.
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walkon Donating Member (919 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-05 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. My dominant question
is should Fineman be tried as an accomplice/co-conspirator in the illegal invasion of Iraq.
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ewagner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-05 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
2. Screw you Howard!!!!
"...the dominant question..." should have been asked BY YOU during the '04 election....now is a little late to ask HOWARD! You and your ild enabled this disaster and now you want to look like sages for questioning it AFTER THE FACT????? :grr:

This is for you and the horse you rode in on!!!! FU
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senseandsensibility Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-10-05 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #2
22. Agreed!
I will never forget Fineman gushing over * in his codpiece as he strutted under the Mission Accomplished sign. It was truly embarrassing and over the top. He is and always will be an empty headed cheerleader, just like his hero, chimp.:puke:
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huckleberry Donating Member (729 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-05 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
3. finally, Howard wakes up
more from the article --

Maybe we can correct that mistake now. Forget it. The idea wont fly politically. Part of my job is to travel the country talking to voters, and I can tell you that there is very little support for that notion. The Pentagon has enough trouble right now recruiting young men and women to the Armed Services as it is. Announce a doubling of the commitment to Iraq? All hell breaks loose. And at some point even a compliant Republican Congress is going to balk at the financial cost. Iraq is on the way to becoming the most expensive war we have ever fought.

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GCP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-05 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
5. Fuck Howard Fineman and the horse he rode in on
He's been Bush's butt-boy too long for me to have any patience with anything he says.
And BTW, we didn't have noble goals in Vietnam. Ho Chi Minh was a nationalist who was trying to kick the colonial French out of Vietnam after WWII. He actually succeeded in that. But because he was also a communist and the domino theory was hot at the time, we decided he had to be stopped from running his own country.
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Wright Patman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-05 04:22 PM
Response to Original message
6. * has lost his nerve
I thought God was talking to him.

God should have told him by now to institute martial law, reinstate the draft with a stroke of the pen and it's onward and upward with the Project for the New Israeli Century.

So what if all hell breaks loose. If you are God's anointed, the gates of hell shall not prevail against you.
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geckosfeet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-05 04:33 PM
Response to Original message
7. This smells like a melt down simmering on low.
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-05 04:38 PM
Response to Original message
8. CYA, Howard. CYA.
We're on to you, though. Bastard.
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-05 04:59 PM
Response to Original message
9. This is Vietnam redux, accelerated
Edited on Wed Jun-08-05 05:00 PM by Jack Rabbit
This is a note to those who are throwing Fineman's words from the last couple of years back at him and suggesting that he has no real right to change his mind.

The Vietnam war also had considerable support in the period following the Tonkin Gulf resolution. Vietnam, like Iraq, was supposed to be a quick, easy war (I don't anybody used the term cakewalk then, but it was the same idea). This was reflected in the editorial pages of most American newspapers and the columns of mainstream pundits across the political spectrum.

By the Tet Offensive, three and a half years after the Tonkin Gulf resolution, things were a lot different. Public opinion shifted and LBJ thought it best not to run for re-election. Nixon said he had a plan to end the war; it was just another of the many lies Nixon told throughout his career, but if he hadn't said that, he probably wouldn't have held on to win the election.

As public opinion shifted, so did the editorial position of many newspapers. And pundits who had initially supported the war came to oppose it.

It's only been a little more than two years since the first missiles flew over Baghdad; now, Fineman is "reconsidering" the wisdom of the invasion. We're ahead of schedule.

Perhaps it's no surprise that we're ahead of schedule. This time, the lies are even more blatant and the war even less honorable.
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Lexingtonian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. um, we have recapitulated Vietnam
Edited on Thu Jun-09-05 12:28 AM by Lexingtonian
pretty exactly. Just at a generalized 3-4x rate of speed. It's the situation roughly equivalent to 1973/74 there (and being relived here, too).
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Barrett808 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. Yes, I sometimes say it's "Vietnam on Internet time" n/t
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. That's a good way of putting it
Edited on Thu Jun-09-05 03:30 PM by Jack Rabbit
EDITED for grammar and clarity.

Still, there is something else going on here.

In the case of Vietnam, the only thing the US really wanted was a piece of real estate that it deemed strategically important. Otherwise, the best and brightest in the US government believed their own mythology about how everybody in the world really just wanted to be an American, so of course they opposed Communism. There was absolutely no appreciation among the US leadership for Vietnam as a nationalist war in which peasants simply wanted to rid their country of foreign domination, whether it was French, Japanese or American.

If one were to ask a Johnson or Nixon administration official what he thought we were doing in Vietnam, he would probably say, "I thought we were trying to contain Communism." I would accept that as an honest answer. A strategic retreat would no doubt have been better; this would have allowed Vietnam to reunify under Ho while containing any further spread of Communism. Lives would have been saved. The fact the the US was defeated in Vietnam didn't prevent the Berlin Wall from falling or the Soviet Union from collapsing, so no one can say that Vietnam was as strategically important as our best and brightest thought.

In the present situation, there is still a lot of this idea that everybody wants to be an American and that Arabs will gladly let the US make decisions for them. However, in this case, it seems that what the neoconservatives want is a greater US control over Arab society, while their predecessors in Vietnam just wanted to deny Ho Chi Minh's Communist allies a base in Indochina. To the cold warriors, the Vietnamese could be anything, as long as it wasn't Communist; to the neoconservatives, the Iraqis can be Arabs and practice Islam, as long as they sell us their oil and other resources cheap and allow transnational corporations, mostly based in the US, to operate freely in their country.

As Dylan said, "Money doesn't talk, it screams." It is screaming more loudly and using more obscenities in Iraq than it did in Vietnam.

If one were to ask a neoconservative what he thinks we're trying to accomplish in Iraq, he'll say, "We're keeping Americans safe from terrorism." That would not be an honest answer; it is steer manure and this hypothetical neocon would know it. He knew that the case for war, based on terrorism, was "thin" and therefore he worked to "fix" intelligence and facts around the policy. That kind of lying and dissembling was the mission of departments like the Office of Special Plans, headed by Douglas Feith in the Pentagon. Here, the war was about oil and resources, not terrorism. If the case was thin, then the neoconservatives undoubtedly knew that their claims about Saddam's weapons were exaggerated at best; if Saddam possessed weapons in the quantities they claimed at the time, Saddam would never have been able to hide them. Dr. Blix and his people would have been swimming in a biochemical arsenal as soon as they entered the country.

Bush could have come out smelling like a rose in Iraq, even if he wouldn't have really deserved it. All he would have had to have done was let the inspection process work, confirming that Saddam had no banned weapons. Bush could have said, "now we know Saddam has disarmed, where we didn't before." But disarming Saddam was a pretext, not the real goal. Therefore, in order to place Iraq's wealth in the hands of his corporate cronies, he had to go to war, oust Saddam and install either a classic colonial regime or a puppet regime (in fact, one, under Allawi, followed the other, under Bremer) in order to make deals with the west to which the Iraqi people, if they had any say about it through a truly popular government, never would have acquiesced. While the cold warriors may have failed to appreciate the nationalist rather than Communist goals of the Viet Cong, the neoconservatives are very aware of the nationalist sentiments of the Iraqi people and their desire to control their own resources for their own benefit. Consequently, Bush could not have let the inspections process work, especially not if it showed that Saddam was not a threat to his weakest neighbor.

This was lying and dissembling from day one, even about the stated goals of the invasion. While the cold warriors who blundered in Vietnam could always say that they were attempting to contain Communism, the neoconservatives who blundered into Iraq cannot say with any credibility that they were waging a war on terror.

That is why the case for war in Iraq has fallen apart faster than then case for war in Vietnam.
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Barrett808 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Excellent post, thanks. n/t
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AtTheEndOfTheDay Donating Member (454 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-10-05 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #14
21. Excellent analysis,
thank you.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #9
17. This is worse than Vietnam!
Edited on Thu Jun-09-05 09:18 PM by IndianaGreen
The same Washington Post poll that contained gloomy Iraq numbers for Bush also showed that the Democrats had fallen to their lowest public approval rating ever.

The officer who wrote me from Iraq doesnt have much use for either party, in fact. He just wants to get the job done and come home.

I won't go into an "I told you so" rant, although it is well deserved by people like Howard Fineman who ignored the millions of people that marched against this war in late 2002 and early 2003. I will say that I am sure that Fineman is not the only MSM reporter that has a clear view of how bad things really are in Iraq, but that many others are silent for fear of being silenced like Rather and Newsweek. What troubled days lie ahead!
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Exactly. It is worse.
Edited on Thu Jun-09-05 10:16 PM by Jack Rabbit
EDITED for typing

That is why the war effort isn't going to take as long to collapse.

Nixon at least found a way wind down direct US involvement and reduce the number of troops during his first four years in office. Bush can't seem to do that. He'll either have to impose a draft or admit defeat.

If he imposes a draft, the new selective service will simply become the focus of anti-war activity here. Make my day, Frat Boy.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. You know, you make a very good point about Vietnamization
Nixon had a working government and an infrastructure to work with in South Vietnam. We lack both in Iraq. There is no way that Bush will implement a gradual phase out of troops from Iraq simply because there is no viable Iraqi military.
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Beetwasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 08:56 AM
Response to Original message
11. Fuck You Howie, You Piece of Shit
You can go to hell. Scumbag.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
12. FINEMAN YOU F***ING BUSH WHORE
Edited on Thu Jun-09-05 12:16 PM by Skittles
DON'T *EVEN* TRY TO REDEEM YOUR SORRY ASS NOW. You should have called your article: IRAQ - IT'S A HUGE SHIT SANDWICH AND WE'RE ALL GONNA HAVE TO TAKE A BITE.

Thanks for nothing, ASSHOLE.
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eleny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 06:22 PM
Response to Original message
16. Quick, Howard! Get yourself on the right side of things early enough
Then, when the fit hits the shan, you can act like you were always with us.
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RBHam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-10-05 01:56 AM
Response to Original message
20. Fineman is as slimy as they come.
Where's your Popular War president now, Howie?
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