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maha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-03 05:12 PM
Original message
Why Kucinich Lost the Recent Debate
Edited on Sat Sep-27-03 05:37 PM by maha
Success is in the eyes of supporters of course, and the Kucinichistas are certain their man walks on water. But I found DK's debate performance disturbing.

Read all about it.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-03 05:15 PM
Response to Original message
1. I dont think he walks on water
You can have your opinions but I dont think he does and I think you are broadsiding. I think hes a good candiate and fits my views but no I dont find him near Jesus Christ.
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maha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-03 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. Sorry, but
I learned today that one does not dare even suggest that Kucinich is less than perfect without being mauled. And, the fact is, I was disturbed at some of the stuff he said Thursday.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-03 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Thats understandable
but you broadsided his supporters. Thats w-r-o-n-g. You said that we have beef with Mosely-Braun didnt you or you said something like that, I like Carol M-B as do many Kucinich supporters.
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maha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-03 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Hoist on your own petard.
Mosley Braun said we shouldn't "cut and run" in Iraq. Doesn't that make her a warmonger? And if not, why not?
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-03 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. I dont consider her one
Whats your problem anyways?
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XanaDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-03 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. No, it does not.
Edited on Sat Sep-27-03 06:17 PM by LibertyChick
If the US pulls out now without keeping that area stable, it will result in the internecine warfare between the Shi'ites, the Suni, and the Kurds. All squabbling and trying to grab as much land for themselves as they can.

Then, what the Iranians and Syrians will do to grab what they want. Look at what Syria did to Lebanon when Reagan pulled people out.

Of course, there is going to be the Azerbaijan/Iranian disputes over an area which is very oil-rich. Eveyone is waiting for the US to leave to start grabbing.

So, even though one was against the invasion of Iraq, one can still logically say that we are now responsible for fixing what Bush blew up and destabilized. The Dems will have to fix Bush's screw up.

Even if we were to pull back the troops tonight, there has to be money to pull troops them out and bring them back.

So warmonger is a bit strong for facing the reality of the mess we are now in.
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realFedUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-03 05:15 PM
Response to Original message
2. maha, this leads to an empty page
I assume, your empty page....
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-03 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. this writting is such bs
no offense but I tell you most Kucinich supporters have a very favorable opinion of Carol Mosely Braun. I dont like my fellow Kucinich supporters and myself being generalized either, would you like it if someone did that to you I ask.
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XanaDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-03 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. DK was good, he stayed on his message...
with no, um, "waffling".

He looked good, too.
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maha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-03 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Yeah, if his message was to let our troops die in the desert,
..by golly, he stayed right on it.

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XanaDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-03 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #12
20. Where did DK say he wanted the troops to "die in the desert"?
That's hyperbolic. I thought he said he wanted to pull them out right away?

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Rhiannon12866 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #3
26. I agree with you about Carol Moseley Braun
I missed the last debate, but saw all the previous ones. I was amazed when I heard her remarks, particularly about the war in Iraq. She criticized Bush*s preemptive policies and I felt as if she was speaking for me.:shrug:
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maha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-03 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. No, it doesn't.
The link works for me. If it doesn't work for other people, however, speak up.
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roughsatori Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-03 05:35 PM
Response to Original message
4. You link to your own blog instead of just stating it here
and it is a blank that it opens too.
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maha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-03 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Try the basic link:
http://www.mahablog.com

I didn't want to paste the whole thing here, with links. It's a bit long.
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cosmicdot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-03 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
8. to quote a DUer: "People see what they want to see."
Edited on Sat Sep-27-03 05:43 PM by cosmicdot
If you believe that "Kucinich as his followers don't seem to be able to grasp" Iraq, that's what you want to see ... it's not correct, but, that's your issue ... it doesn't necessarily call for a DU thread linked to your blog, now does it?

Personally, I see this as continued flame bait based on other threads I've seen. The premise has been thrashed already, right?

Or is this just to even out the bashing field?





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maha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-03 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. More or less to even out the bashing field.
But I really had to get this off my chest. Kucinich said some things that disturbed me. For those to lazy to click on the link:

...his opening remarks in Thursday's debate bothered me a lot.

SEIB: Turning on Iraq to Congressman Kucinich and Reverend Sharpton, you've both been outspoken critics of the war and have said, in fact, you'd bring the troops home. But the fact is that as of now the troops are there, the United States is committed.

Would you vote--will you vote yes or no on the $87 billion? And if the answer is no, what's the message you would send to the troops who are there today?

KUCINICH: The message is now I will not vote for the $87 billion. I think we should support the troops and I think we best support them by bringing them home.

Our troops are at peril there, because of this administration's policy. And I think that the American people deserve to know where every candidate on this stage stands on this issue, because we were each provided with a document--a security document that more or less advised us to stay the course, don't cut and run, commit up to 150,000 troops for five years at a cost of up to $245 billion.

A matter of fact, General Clark was one of the authors of that document that was released in July.

So I think the American people deserve to know that a candidate--and I'm the candidate who led the effort in the House of Representatives challenging the Bush administration's march toward war, I say bring the troops home unequivocally. Bring them home and stop this commitment for $87 billion, which is only going to get us in deeper.

After a while, we're going to be sacrificing our education, our health care, our housing and the future of this nation.


First, I've been googling since Thursday to find out what this "security document" is Kucinich is talking about, and I can't find it anywhere. Kucinich supporters have grasped at this alleged report as proof that Wesley Clark wants to spend $245 billion dollars for more warfare in Iraq, which is certainly at odds with the General's public statements.

General Clark wasn't given a chance to rebut Kucinich's claim. In the absense of context, it isn't unreasonable to assume that this "security document," if it exists at all, was an estimate of what the war will cost if it continues as it has. We're already up to $166 billion ($79 billion original appropriation plus the infamous $87 billion recently requested). One of these days it'll add up to real money.

It bothered me also that Kucinich glibly brushed off the $87 billion -- no more money to Iraq, just bring the troops home. Kucinich apparently plans to beam them back to North America next week with his Start Trek transporter.

It's morally cheap to be against the $87 billion. Of course, no one wants to spend the $87 billion. This is money that would never have had to be spent if we hadn't gone ahead with the dadblamed invasion. As several candidates said last Thursday, we must demand accountability for that money -- Congress must know exactly what the Bushies intend to do with every dollar. Perhaps a lesser appropriation will do. But to say no money at all is irresponsible.

As I've ranted before, our troops are in Iraq without adequate food, water, and shelter. Soldiers have died because there aren't enough kevlar vests to go around. Just today we learned of a new attempt by the Bushies to save money by risking soldiers' lives:

Even as Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld made headlines this week by announcing that up to 20,000 fresh troops may be called to Iraq, President Bush and members of the congressional leadership were quietly abandoning a plan to protect troop-transport airliners from missile attack by terrorists or Saddam loyalists.

The measure, first advanced by the Pentagon, would have begun an ambitious program to equip the commercial airliners that are used for troop transport with advanced technology to protect them from the shoulder-fired missiles. Confused by disarray in the administration's plans to protect airliners from missile attack, the House of Representatives slashed the original $25 million request to $3 million. Congressional officials say the Bush administration did nothing to win approval of the full measure -- despite recent missile attacks on U.S. military craft flying near the Baghdad airport. (Paul J. Caffera, "Bush Abandons Troop Protection Plan," Salon, September 27, 2003)


But according to Dennis Kucinich, our troops should just put up with these little hardships until we can bring them home, which in spite of the Congressman's best hopes will not be next week.

When I press them on the matter of how the troops will be brought home, the Kucinichistas tell me brightly that the Congressman has an original plan to turn Iraq over to the UN. Wow, I'm amazed nobody else ever though of that (sarcasm alert).

Still, the UN is not likely to march peacekeepers into Baghdad anytime this year. Perhaps not even next year. But we don't have to spend any more money to support the troops. They can just make do without kevlar vests and bottled water and other little frills.

(Am I still pissed off? You betcha.)

Face it, Kucinich was just plain demagoging this issue. The other candidates gave reasonable, thoughtful answers to the $87 billion question. For the record, I thought the best answer came from Carol Mosley Braun:

MOSELEY BRAUN: I stand with the mothers of the young men and women who are in the desert in Iraq and who right now are in the shooting gallery without even sufficient supplies to sustain themselves.

And so, it is absolutely, I think, critical that we not cut and run, that we provide our troops with what they need and that we just not blow up that country and leave it blown up; we have a responsibility.

Following in on that responsibility means we will have to vote some money. The estimates vary as to what that is.

Almost a year ago, I called on this president not to go into Iraq and I called on the Congress not to give him the authority to go into Iraq, and at the same time asked the question, "Mr. President, how much is this going to cost?" He didn't answer the question then, he's not answering the question now.

But I believe that it's going to be important for us to come up with the money to make certain that our young men and women and our reputation as leaders in the world is not permanently destroyed by the folly of preemptive war.


You say she doesn't want to cut and run? In Kucinich World, that makes Mosley Braun a war monger. For shame.

(There's a lot more, before and after.)
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-03 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. None of us considers Mosley Braun a war monger
I think you are generalizing Kucinich supporters. I tell you this how would you like it if we generalize your candiate and his supporters.
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maha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-03 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. But she says
... don't "cut and run" from Iraq. Her exact words. I've been told that when Wesley Clark says we can't "cut and run" that is proof he wants to maintain the status quo in Iraq and continue with Bush's policies. So which is it?
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maha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-03 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. BTW, I don't have a candidate yet.
Some I like better than others. None of 'em are perfect. Most of 'em I could live with.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-03 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. Ok look
I support Kucinich but I can tolerate the others. I am a democrat, I like the other candiates ok. Iraq isnt my only issue. You are generalizing Kucinich supporters, and I am telling you thats wrong.
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XanaDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-03 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. The idea of not cutting and running...
Do you mean that is the equivalent of escalating the invasion of Iraq?

DK wants to pull out the troops, and that is not cutting and running. Then you say that he wants the troops to "die in the desert".

But, if we don't cut and run, that's not good for the troops, either.

So which is it?

The US now must maintain an orderly and safe evacuation of the troops, even if we decide to abandon the area. The troops are all over that country, they have to be organized and brought back to the Persian Gulf to be transported by ships back to the US. This must be done in a manner where they are not attacked and murdered by remnants of Hussein's people, and others with an axe to grind.

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Rhiannon12866 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-03 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #14
28. Carol Moseley Braun has been very outspoken in
opposition to the war. As I have said before, I find that I agree with her views.:shrug:
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-03 06:38 PM
Response to Original message
22. Your assertions
Seem to contradict each other...

Kucinich wants to pukll the troops out...

So you interpret this as wanting them to all die iin the desert.

Mosely Brauwn, who say we should not cut and run, then becomes a "WAR MONGER"

Which is it that you want. DO you want the troops pulled out of not.

The little bumper sticker with the original post seems to indicate that you favor Kucinich's stance, and only Kucinich and Shaprton are suggesting an immediate withdrawal.

Which is in and of itself, physically impossible, as you cant fit all of the troops into the available ships and transport aircraft in one trip. It would require a planned retreat, with groups of troops to stay and defend thhe withdrawal, of troops for each trip. And that isn't in and of itself cheap. Have you ever floated up to the local BP and tried to fill the tank of an aircraft carrier. It isnt cheap.

And on top of that, Bush and the Republicans went and blew up a lot of another nation. International law now obligates the nation that did the bombing to fix up the mess, whether alone, or with U.N. and international support, so not only is cutting and running wrong, it is also internationally illegal. As illegal as the concept of pre-emtive strike was to begin with, if not moreso.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-03 06:50 PM
Response to Original message
23. are you afraid of DK?
why?

peace
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Ardee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-28-03 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
24. Much ado about nothing
sums up that blog, sorry....unless you are being self promotional here and then Im not at all sorry.

I have read any number of contentious posts that use a sentence, in this case Kucinichs refusal to vote for 87 billion in further waste and corruption, to then fly off into outer space and make any number of silly and untruthful assumptions based on that single statement....your blog was just another of those.

If you area dmeocrat then you are living proof that Pogo was absolutely correct!
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hippywife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-28-03 11:36 AM
Response to Original message
25. While our military is on the ground there,
Edited on Sun Sep-28-03 11:37 AM by hippywife
we are nothing but an occupation force.

If you want cut and run, look for example at the latest tactic of the Bush administration. In their desperation to distance themselves from the quagmire in time for the election cycle, the Bush adminstration is calling for the Iraqi council to be fully operational with a working constitution within months.

Our Articles of Confederation were written 1781. When the delegates met to amend the articles in 1787, it took a complete re-write into what became our constitution which was set to take effect in 1789. It wasn't fully ratified by the states for years afterwards--1791. (It wasn't easy but it's going to look like a cakewalk compared to the democratization of Iraq.) Now that would match up to the initial time estimates the Bush administration was proposing before the American people started getting wise to their crap and the fact that we were losing troops daily after mission was declared accomplished.

What Dennis is proposing is not a cut and run tactic. The plan is to remove the thorn of the occupation from the side of the Iraqi's and replace it with the diplomatic, humanitarian, and peacekeeping functions of the U.N. Last I checked, even with all of Bush's bullshit and blustering, we are still members of the U.N. That would mean that we would still be heavily involved and responsible but not as an occupation force and not in sole possession of Iraq's oil industry and rebuilding contracts...as it should be.

Dennis is proposing the only true diplomatic course we can take. It gets our troops out of a situation they should never have been in and maintains support for rebuilding Iraq. I think it would be much lauded by the Iraqi's and the rest of the world.

And I think CMB rocks!! She is a beautiful and articulate lady that I would also be proud to call Madam President. ;)


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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 10:26 PM
Response to Original message
27. The eye of the beholder:
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