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Stockholm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 06:35 AM
Original message
Robert Fisk on London attack: The reality of this barbaric bombing
"If you bomb our cities," Osama bin Laden said in one of his recent video tapes, "we will bomb yours." There you go, as they say. It was crystal clear Britain would be a target ever since Tony Blair decided to join George Bush’s "war on terror" and his invasion of Iraq. We had, as they say, been warned. The G8 summit was obviously chosen, well in advance, as Attack Day.

And it’s no use Mr Blair telling us yesterday that "they will never succeed in destroying what we hold dear". "They" are not trying to destroy "what we hold dear". They are trying to get public opinion to force Blair to withdraw from Iraq, from his alliance with the United States, and from his adherence to Bush’s policies in the Middle East. The Spanish paid the price for their support for Bush - and Spain’s subsequent retreat from Iraq proved that the Madrid bombings achieved their objectives - while the Australians were made to suffer in Bali.

It is easy for Tony Blair to call yesterdays bombings "barbaric" - of course they were - but what were the civilian deaths of the Anglo-American invasion of Iraq in 2003, the children torn apart by cluster bombs, the countless innocent Iraqis gunned down at American military checkpoints? When they die, it is "collateral damage"; when "we" die, it is "barbaric terrorism".

If we are fighting insurgency in Iraq, what makes us believe insurgency won’t come to us? One thing is certain: if Tony Blair really believes that by "fighting terrorism" in Iraq we could more efficiently protect Britain - fight them there rather than let them come here, as Bush constantly says - this argument is no longer valid.

more http://www.robert-fisk.com/articles517.htm

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R Hickey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 06:48 AM
Response to Original message
1. It sure helped Bush get the leaders to stop talking about climate change
It worked so well, that it almost looks like the Saudi/Bush oilmen thought the whole thing up.
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reality based Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 07:44 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. And climate change may kill and destroy far more than the "terrists"
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enough Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 07:25 AM
Response to Original message
2. Good article from Fisk.
snip>

And now let us reflect on the fact that yesterday, the opening of the G8, so critical a day, so bloody a day, represented a total failure of our security services - the same intelligence "experts" who claim there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq when there were none, but who utterly failed to uncover a months-long plot to kill Londoners.

snip>

I remember, crossing the Atlantic on 11 September 2001 - my plane turned round off Ireland when the US closed its airspace - how the aircraft purser and I toured the cabins to see if we could identify any suspicious passengers. I found about a dozen, of course, totally innocent men who had brown eyes or long beards or who looked at me with "hostility". And sure enough, in just a few seconds, Osama bin Laden turned nice, liberal, friendly Robert into an anti-Arab racist.

And this is part of the point of yesterday’s bombings: to divide British Muslims from British non-Muslims (let us not mention the name Christians), to encourage the very kind of racism that Tony Blair claims to resent.

snip>
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indepat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 09:27 AM
Response to Original message
4. Yesterday's bombings in London were barbaric, but children torn apart
by cluster bombs are collateral damage pretty much sums up the extraordinarily warped rationale being showered upon the public by the MSM.
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classysassy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-09-05 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #4
14. Civilians
in Iraq are fair game for Bush and Blair,but when the bombing happens in Europe or America the bomber are uncivilized.
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
5. Critique
"They" are not trying to destroy "what we hold dear". They are trying to get public opinion to force Blair to withdraw from Iraq, from his alliance with the United States, and from his adherence to Bush’s policies in the Middle East . . . .

If we are fighting insurgency in Iraq, what makes us believe insurgency won’t come to us? One thing is certain: if Tony Blair really believes that by "fighting terrorism" in Iraq we could more efficiently protect Britain - fight them there rather than let them come here, as Bush constantly says - this argument is no longer valid.

This point is well taken. Iraq was not part of the war against terrorism until Bush, Blair and the neoconservatives disingenuously made it one. Doing so was a blunder of monumental proportions.

For Prime Minister Blair to join Mr. Bush in his Mesopotamian madness may have been an even greater blunder on Blair's part than going into Iraq in the first place was on Bush's. It simply was not Britain's fight, until now. Moreover, it was made Britain's fight by the very sort of thing that invading Iraq was supposed to prevent: a terrorist attack on British soil.

It is lunacy to think that this could have been prevented; the British knew this would (not could) happen and acknowledged it. For months, warnings were sent to the British public from the government and the press that what happened yesterday would happen sooner or later. In addition, the British people have a better idea of why this would happen than Bush regime spokespersons would have Americans believe. As Andrew Brown said in a piece published yesterday on Salon.com (subscription or day pass required): Very few people here believe they hate us for our freedoms. We think they hate us because our armies are in their countries.

A fact with which we Americans must deal is that Mr. Bush's idea of a war on terror has not made us safer. We will no doubt continue to hear the rhetoric from Mr. Bush and his supporters that we must fight terrorism in Iraq so that we will not have to fight it America. This is nonsense. There is no reason a terrorist attack like the one in London yesterday or Madrid 15 months ago or Istanbul in November 2003 couldn't take place somewhere in America in the too near future. To invade Iraq, Mr. Bush move troops and material out of Afghanistan, where the terrorists were, to Iraq, where jihadists such as Abu Musab al-Zarqawi were rendered ineffective by Saddam's brutal police state. Osama's terrorists and their allies in Afghanistan regrouped and made alliances with the formerly ineffective terrorists in Iraq, made resurgent thanks to Mr. Bush's blunder.

I have never, never in my life hoped more that I am wrong, but these chickens will come home to roost.

On the other hand, Osama is being just as disingenuous in proclaiming his solidarity with the Iraqi people as is Mr. Bush. Just as Bush shows his solidarity with the Iraqi people by appointing an American to lord it over the Iraqis like a classic colonial governor-general, torturing prisoners in Abu Ghraib and slaughtering noncombatants in Falluja, so Osama shows his by making alliance with Zarqawi, who regards the faith of 60% of Iraqis as an Islamic heresy, its adherents as collaborators with either the US or Iran, and has been blamed for bloody attacks on Shia mosques. The US was not in Iraq on September 11, 2001, when nineteen men under Osama's direction murdered 3000 Americans. Osama's beef with the west did not start with the US-led invasion of Iraq and won't end when the US withdraws; if the US presence in Iraq had not provided Osama with fresh reasons to attack the infidel, he would have found others.

And then come the Muslims of Britain, who have long been awaiting this nightmare. Now every one of our Muslims becomes the "usual suspect", the man or woman with brown eyes, the man with the beard, the woman in the scarf, the boy with the worry beads, the girl who says she’s been racially abused.

I remember, crossing the Atlantic on 11 September 2001 - my plane turned round off Ireland when the US closed its airspace - how the aircraft purser and I toured the cabins to see if we could identify any suspicious passengers. I found about a dozen, of course, totally innocent men who had brown eyes or long beards or who looked at me with "hostility". And sure enough, in just a few seconds, Osama bin Laden turned nice, liberal, friendly Robert (Fisk) into an anti-Arab racist.

Tony Blair, unlike many in the Bush regime and several of their allies on the American right, makes a poor demagogue. Unfortunately, Britain has it's right wing, too, and they can be expected to take advantage of a climate of fear to suggest that the best way to fight terror is to wage a war with a mythical enemy within: anybody with brown skin who wears a turban and proclaims there is but one God and that Mohammad is His Prophet.

Islam has been one of the great faiths of mankind for 1400 years. Like all great faiths, it not monolithic and has adapted itself to different ways of life over time and space; like all great ideas, it has been used by its adherents for good and ill. Common sense should tell any one that Mohammad did not walk the earth in the seventh century CE in order to undermine a great nation yet unborn in a land yet unknown to people in his part of the world. Common sense should tell any one that only a few fanatics, not all Muslims, are the enemy.

Unfortunately, people living in a climate of fear are not always open to common sense.
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-09-05 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. You are right that Osama's beef didn't start with Iraq
but I think that to worry about Osama is to worry about the wrong thing. The fundamenatlists are actually, in my opinion irrelevant - what is important is their base of support, which allows them to fight against a much better equipped enemy. It comes back to something that the Magistarate said rather well on another thread - Al Quaida and similar groups are fighting guerilla warfare on a global scale. And to destroy a guerilla group, you have to kill the support for it, and its this way with OBL and the rest of the fanatics. Only by comprehensively, and visibly - since justice needs to be seen to be done, putting an end to our exploitation of the rest of the world, will we destroy this base of support and ultimately have peace. But I don't think our corporate controlled governments could do such a thing even with the best will in the world.
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-09-05 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. I'm not sure Osama is that relavent any more
Islamic fundamentalism still seeems to be a cohesive element of jihadism, but are they taking direction from a single leader?

Like many attacks attributed to al Qaida, the attacks in London were coordinated against several targets. However, we no longer need assume this to be the personal calling card of Osama. Any jihadist with explosives and a fuse seems ready to call himself a member of al Qaida.

The Magistrate is right about it being guerrilla warfare on a global scale, but what are they aiming at? If it is global in scope, it isn't national liberation. Osama envisions his cause as pan-Islamic, not nationalist. He is in his own way as much an imperialist as Bush, yet he has fought his war with a cell-based military structure not conducive to empire-building.

Nevertheless, Osama is appealing to the frustrations of Arabs and South Asians. Much of those are frustrations with western corporate culture.

The relationship between north and south, including the Middle East and South Asia, is a dynamic. To change the behavior of one pole, the other must first change itself. If September 11 and other terrorist attacks, including last week's in London, was a series of bad steps on the jihadists part, so too was the invasion of Iraq a bad step on the part of the west.
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-09-05 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
6. Bump
!!
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Manix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-09-05 04:58 PM
Response to Original message
7. Robert Fisk: The reality of this barbaric bombing
If we are fighting insurgency in Iraq, what makes us think insurgency won’t come to us?



<snip>


"If you bomb our cities," Osama bin Laden said in one of his recent video tapes, "we will bomb yours." There you go, as they say. It was crystal clear Britain would be a target ever since Tony Blair decided to join George Bush’s "war on terror" and his invasion of Iraq. We had, as they say, been warned. The G8 summit was obviously chosen, well in advance, as Attack Day.

And it’s no use Mr Blair telling us yesterday that "they will never succeed in destroying what we hold dear". "They" are not trying to destroy "what we hold dear". They are trying to get public opinion to force Blair to withdraw from Iraq, from his alliance with the United States, and from his adherence to Bush’s policies in the Middle East. The Spanish paid the price for their support for Bush - and Spain’s subsequent retreat from Iraq proved that the Madrid bombings achieved their objectives - while the Australians were made to suffer in Bali.



<snip>


But here’s the problem. To go on pretending that Britain’s enemies want to destroy "what we hold dear" encourages racism; what we are confronting here is a specific, direct, centralised attack on London as a result of a "war on terror" which Lord Blair of Kut al-Amara has locked us into. Just before the US presidential elections, Bin Laden asked: "Why do we not attack Sweden?"

Lucky Sweden. No Osama bin Laden there. And no Tony Blair.



More
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burrowowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-09-05 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. This is sobering
from the article:

"And then come the Muslims of Britain, who have long been awaiting this nightmare. Now every one of our Muslims becomes the "usual suspect", the man or woman with brown eyes, the man with the beard, the woman in the scarf, the boy with the worry beads, the girl who says she’s been racially abused.

I remember, crossing the Atlantic on 11 September 2001 - my plane turned round off Ireland when the US closed its airspace - how the aircraft purser and I toured the cabins to see if we could identify any suspicious passengers. I found about a dozen, of course, totally innocent men who had brown eyes or long beards or who looked at me with "hostility". And sure enough, in just a few seconds, Osama bin Laden turned nice, liberal, friendly Robert into an anti-Arab racist."
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-09-05 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. "Racism" or not, the result is cutting off immigration and an increase
in deportations. No nation will tolerate letting those IN who wish to do it harm. That said, furthermore, the fanatics wouldn't be in countries of the West unless they were escaping from their majority Islamic countries of origin.

This begs the uncomfortable question of 'why ?' The works of Bernard Lewis (What Went Wrong ?) and Irshad Manji (The Trouble With Islam) will then need futher examination and addendums.

This is also a "DSM" moment for the Islamic world, who mainly have 25 years left of oil wealth to deplete and then transition, to what ? The West, with Winning the Oil End Game www.oilendgame.com , has a head start.
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ochazuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-09-05 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Next time you hear someone say "fight them over there so we don't have...
Edited on Sat Jul-09-05 04:14 PM by ochazuke
... to fight them here",

say: "Funny, that's what Bin Laden said about his 9/11 project."

(See if they can figure it out)
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-09-05 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. We bomb them over there.... because we can... with impunity.
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fedsron2us Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-09-05 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. I normally agree with Fisk
Edited on Sat Jul-09-05 05:10 PM by fedsron2us
but tying the insurgency in Iraq to Al Quaeda means he is playing the same tune as Bush and Blair. Osama Bin Laden's agenda was established long before Saddam was toppled. It also implies that foreign Islamic radicals not Iraqi nationalists are the central force in the resistance to US and British occupation. There is no doubt that the UK's involvement in the invasion of Iraq may have been an added impetus for the attacks in London but, as Britain is a long term ally of the US , it might have been targeted anyway. It would be by no means the first time that terrorist incidents relating to events in the Middle East have occurred on British soil. At the moment there is still no definite proof to link the attacks to Islamic militants so Fisk is speculating just like the rest of us.

On edit -Juan Coles site gives a good overview of the possible identities and motives of the perpetrators, if they were Islamicists, and also lays to rest one or two myths that I have seen peddled in the media and repeated on DU.

http://www.juancole.com/
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-09-05 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. I don't read it that way

Osama Bin Laden's agenda was established long before Saddam was toppled.

While that is true, let's also remember that Osama is attempting to use resentment of the invasion for his purposes. He started doing that even before the ivasion. That's also the reason why he has since the invasion he has allied himself with Zarqawi.

It also implies that foreign Islamic radicals not Iraqi nationalists are the central force in the resistance to US and British occupation.

Fisk makes no such implication. One doesn't need to claim that Islamic radicals are the central force in the resistance to occupation in Iraq; one need only claim that they are a significant force. That is a still a fair statement without buying into the idea that it was necessary to fight the terrorists in Iraq in order not to fight them in -- well, London, among other places. That theory has been sent down the crapper.

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fedsron2us Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-10-05 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. It is still just speculation.
Edited on Sun Jul-10-05 07:58 AM by fedsron2us
The identity and motives of the London bombers is at present unknown. Nothing Fisk or you have said changes that situation. I am sure that the invasion of Iraq has made Britain a more likely target for terrorist attacks but as far as I am aware it is Bush not Blair who has made the war on terror the prime reason for being in Iraq. The British government have use a number of lame excuses to support the illegal ousting of Saddam's regime but claiming it would make Britain less likely to be subjected to terrorist activity is not an angle they have pushed very hard. People in the UK have over 30 years of experiencing the opposite result from having troops in in Northern Ireland so they were never likely to buy into that theory.
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kliljedahl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-09-05 05:13 PM
Response to Original message
13. Excellent piece, thanks
Copied & printing as I type.


Keith’s Barbeque Central

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