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Interesting LA Times Op-ed: What the Bible really says about gays.

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non sociopath skin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 04:50 AM
Original message
Interesting LA Times Op-ed: What the Bible really says about gays.
Sophisticated Christians have long recognized that, as a colleague of mine put it after launching his own Scripture study, "there's a lot of wacky stuff in the Bible." For example, Cannon points out that the same holiness code in Leviticus that prohibits men from lying with each other "as with a woman" also forbids the shaving of beards and the sowing of two kinds of seeds in the same field.

Conservatives argue that this doesn't mean that we're not to take Scripture literally, but only that some Old Testament rules are superseded by the Christian Gospel. But that thinking runs aground because the New Testament itself contains its own literal conundrums. In the Epistle to the Romans, St. Paul asserts that "a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." But in the Epistle of James, he says: "A man is justified by works and not by faith alone."

There is an alternative to passage-by-passage literal arguments — one that calls for the courageous assertion that Scripture can be reinterpreted, and sometimes repudiated, on the basis of the lived experience of Christians, guided by the Holy Spirit.

Rest at:
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-mcgough18jul18,0,4109333.story?track=tottext
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left is right Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 05:07 AM
Response to Original message
1. From my extensive study of the Bible
Edited on Mon Jul-18-05 05:08 AM by left is right
those "wacky" rules about not sowing 2 kinds of seeds in the same field, or wearing a garment with 2 kinds of material, along with the kosher laws had to do with the Israelites call to be a distinct nation, separate from all those other nations around them. These rules were meant to be a constant reminder of there distinctness.
The same was true about the laws against homosexuality, the nations around them used both male and female prostitution--homosexual, as well as heterosexual in their temple worship. Israelites were to abstain from any mixing of religious practices/rituals. Almost every time you read about the abomination of homosexuality, it is in the context of mixing religious practices.
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Jade Fox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #1
11. The information in your last paragraph....
is eye-opening. I didn't know that. Thanks
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Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #1
12. Exactly!
Understanding the context/the times is a must to understand the bible.

No cutting the hair in a bowl shape? That's what the Romans did -- we're Jews, not Romans.

No spilling your seed on the ground? That's too much like Pagan ceramonies -- we're Jews, not Pagans.

No hot man-on-man action? That's what the Romans did -- we're Jews, not Romans.

Sooooo many of the bibliacl laws/teachings were to maintain a strong differentiation between Jews and others.
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. So you're saying that the Torah dates to Roman times?
Not even back to Hellenistic times?

:wow:
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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #1
20. That's an interesting fact!
Thanks for the post - I didn't that stuff, Left-is-right.

I sure learn quite a bit on DU!

And I mean that sincerely.

Take care!

Peace,
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PeachyDem88 Donating Member (93 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 05:16 AM
Response to Original message
2. Great Article...
The current batch of Bumper-Sticker-Christians want to use the Bible to legitimize their own fears and bigotry. Most modern Christians have no concept of what is actually in the bible... This is because they do not READ the Bible.

The Old Testament is really barbaric in some places, and our beloved McChristians probably wouldn't accept most of it, if they were ever to stumble across it. Slaughtering animals... Stoning people who don't observe the Sabbath, and whatnot... grisly stuff.

We need a Christian Left in this country URGENTLY.

M.L.K. style.
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MissMarple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #2
15. Welcome to DU, PeachyDem88!
And, if those folks literally believed everything in the Bible, we would have to put them in straight jackets, it would scramble their brains if they actually tried to put everything into practice. Instead, they just repeat what some ill educated, cult preacher guy tells them and never do any thinking for themselves. :hi:
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madeline_con Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 05:39 AM
Response to Original message
3. Jesus, the Centurion....
and the fact the he never condemned the two men who obviously lived together must be taken out and dusted off for perusal at this juncture.
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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 05:54 AM
Response to Original message
4. I find that many Christians today do the smorgasbord thing
with the Bible.
The read what they want that can be interpreted to fit their needs. The rest is left in the book and if they don't read it, it doesn't apply to them.
Then some think they have the divine right to force their beliefs on each and every other person they come into contact with.
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non sociopath skin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 05:57 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Good job the Fundies have Bible Reading Classes to make sure ....
... they don't have to do their own thinking.

The Skin
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madeline_con Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 06:08 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. "Bible Reading Classes"
More like Bible Intepretation Classes.

Twisted Scripture. :evilgrin:
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madeline_con Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 06:03 AM
Response to Original message
6. Was Jesus Gay and other questions...
Edited on Mon Jul-18-05 06:05 AM by madeline_con
Disclaimer: this is a sample of 3 sites' comments concerning gays and the Bible. That's all they are, 3 POVs.


UCC scholar writes that Jesus was actively gay
Critic says he is misinterpreting, misunderstanding Bible
Saturday, May 31, 2003

By RICHARD N. OSTLING writing for Associated Press

Jennings says the opponents can cite only "five isolated verses" in the Bible. Preferring simplicity to credibility, he ignores those verses and the weightiest American treatment of them: The Bible and Homosexual Practice (from the Methodists' Abingdon Press) by conservative Presbyterian Robert A.J. Gagnon of Pittsburgh Theological Seminary.

Asked about Jennings's theory, Gagnon says "the idea that Jesus was a homosexual or engaged in homosexual acts is complete nonsense" and no "serious biblical scholar" has ever proposed this.

Although Jennings belittles a mere five verses, he largely depends on just a few biblical words concerning the disciple "lying close to the breast of Jesus" at the Last Supper (John 13:23,25, 21:20). This unnamed follower "whom Jesus loved" is often thought to be the writer of the Gospel of John or one of his sources.

As Jennings imagines it, this disciple was "lying in (on) Jesus's lap - that is, snuggled up to Jesus." Jesus "loved" all his colleagues, but Jennings thinks this one friendship was "expressed by physical and personal intimacy - what we might today suppose to be a homoerotic or a 'gay' relationship." Most likely it was "sexual in character," he says, though the Bible doesn't describe the "specific practices" the pair used to "celebrate" physical intimacy.

http://www.spiritrestoration.org/Church/All%20About%20Church%20Articles/Was-Jesus-Gay.htm


Madeline writes: Given the hoopla surrounding "The Da Vinci Code", this could also have been Mary Magdalene, if you're inclined to believe the book is based on historical fact.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
From our buddies over at "Religious Tolerance" (what a misnomer THAT is!)

Matthew 8:5-13:
These verses describe how a Roman centurion asked Jesus to cure his "pais" who lay paralyzed and in great agony. The centurion stated that all Jesus had to do was to say the right words to effect the cure. Jesus praised the centurion for his faith. If the boy had been the centurion's son, then the author probably would have used the Greek word "uios" (son). If the writer wanted to imply that they boy was a slave or indentured servant, then he probably would have used the word "duolos" (slave). But he did not. He used the Greek word pais which, in this situation, contains the suggestion of a young male kept for sexual purposes by his adult owner. The English word "pederasty" comes partly from this word. Various translations of the Christian Scriptures have suppressed the possible sexual component of the term and translated the word simply as a "servant boy", "serving boy", "young servant," "my son," and "my boy." A present-day relationship of this type would be considered child sexual abuse, a serious crime. However, such arrangements were common in the Roman Empire at the time, and were tolerated by society, as was slavery itself.

The Gospel of Luke, starting at Luke 7:2 told the same story differently. The boy was changed into a slave of undefined age who was "dear to" (KJV) the Centurion. The author used the Greek word doulos which is a generic term for servant or slave. He was described as being very sick and near death; this contrasts with the author of Matthew who description of a boy being paralyzed and in great pain.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibc2.htm


---------------------------------------------------------------------
The Very Rev. Hollinshead T. Knight, Interim Rector at St. John's Episcopal Church in Jackson Wyoming, in his essay about the four primary theological stances toward homosexuality, says:

"It isn’t Scripture that creates hostility to homosexuality, but rather hostility to homosexuality that leads certain Christians to retain a few passages from an otherwise discarded law code. We don’t follow biblical teaching on divorce, polygamy, nudity, Paul’s advice not to marry, slavery, or the stoning of a dulterers! Biblical scholar Walter Wink has said that there is no biblical sex ethic. The Bible knows only a love ethic, which is constantly being brought to bear on whatever sexual mores are dominant in any given culture or period."

"The problem is not reconciling homosexuality with scriptural passages that seem to condemn it; the problem is how do you reconcile the rejection and mistreatment of homosexuals with the love of Christ for all people, particularly the oppressed and the rejected? I don’t think it can be done. If the law of love is more important than the laws of biology, I don’t see how Christians can exclude and mistreat people on the basis of sexual orientation. Otherwise you end up with a Matthew Shepherd situation, for which we can all bear some of the blame."

http://members.aol.com/DrSwiney/positive.html

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tocqueville Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 06:14 AM
Response to Original message
8. Why is it so important what the Bible says or not ?
haven't we left the Middle-Ages 400 years ago ?
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. It's not, IMO.
Totally irrelevant either way. If some people want to live their lives that way, fine. But it shouldn't be used as a basis for law.
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Floogeldy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. You two . . .
. . . are right on.

My only concerns are Constitutional implications.

:smoke:
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moodforaday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 07:24 AM
Response to Original message
9. Sinners in the hands of an angry mob
Related, fantastic piece on CommonDreams today:

Sinners in the hands of an angry mob

"To put it biblically, Jonathan Edwards begat Timothy who begat
Jonathan who begat Richard who begat Ogden who begat George who begat
Richard who begat Janet who last month joined two women in marriage
and now wonders what the Presbyterian Church plans to do about her."
(snip)

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0717-25.htm

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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 10:54 AM
Response to Original message
10. Why does hate shrimp so much? Leviticus n/t
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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
14. The overriding 'condemnation' in the NT hypocrisy...those that
proselytize hatred should be very much aware of that. But they ignore the obvious because it implicates them as the 'bad guys'.

IMO, any religious sect, whether Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, pagan et al, that espouses hatred/bigotry/condemnation, is simply wrong in what it teaches. One need not accept a behavior that one finds inappropriate, but to condemn the behavior under the color of religion, is to go against the basic tenets of all the major religions. Love, peace, understanding, forgiveness, tolerance are the basic tenets of all of the major religions. Situations that involve society that are reprehensible, such as murder and child abuse etc are items that are best resolved through courts of law. Religion can give many solace and guideposts on morality; but to use it to condemn individuals is going far over the line that religions are supposed to do.
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kineneb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 09:06 PM
Response to Original message
17. To truely understand the Bible
one needs to study history and anthropology.

I recently had a conversation with a Jewish friend and ask her about the dietary laws, especially the one about mixing meat and milk. It comes down to the Jews not wanting to be associated with ancient pagan (non-Jewish) rituals. By excluding the mixing of meat and milk(products) they remind themselves they are different. Otherwise, it makes absolutely no sense. The problem with shellfish is making sure they come from clean waters and are properly cooked.

Many of the "laws" and rules were for the tribes of Jews wandering in the desert 4000 years ago, not for modern non-Jews in houses with microwave ovens. My best example is the fact that my ancient Germanic ancestors probably would have starved if they did not eat pork. Pigs are great in a damp, cool environment; they have problems with diseases in warmer climes where there is a lack of fuel to cook them properly.

I have been reading Josephus(The History of the Jews, written c. 70 CE) and the OT make more sense seen through his interpretation. The OT rules are covenants which apply only to the Jewish tribes. I don't know of anyone who is performing the proper animal sacrifices these days...

The Fundies are way off if they think that Leviticus has anything to do with them.

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ShockediSay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 10:05 PM
Response to Original message
19. Hermeneutics
Hermeneutics is the art/science of interpretation, esp scripture. Seminaries teach that unless context requires metaphoric meaning, one must use the literal meaning of words in the Bible. THIS HAS NO BIBLICAL BASIS.

However, God/Jesus did say I do not speak to them except in parables. Mark 4:34.

Contrary to what you hear from most, the great truths of the Bible are metaphorical, not literal IMHO. Learning these truths can come only from a lot of Bible study. Citing one or two passages to prove one's Biblical arguments is called "proof texting" and it's bogus.

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non sociopath skin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 05:35 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. The end result is that the Fundies' "Faith" looks less like "faith" ....
... and more like "sophism" in the service of aggressive right-wing politics.

I have little doubt that this phenomenon will, ultimately, be very damaging to Christianity.

The Skin.
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bobbieinok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 02:53 AM
Response to Original message
21. pentecostals preach about 'gifts' but regarding passage abt
handling snakes they always say quickly 'that's not to be taken literally'

or some pentecostal preachers who've been divorced and act as if NT passages vs divorce don't exist

my question 'who gets to decide which passages are not to be taken literally and which must be'?????
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ShockediSay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. It's God's Word (the entire Bible, taken as a whole)
& if anyone tries to persuade you they speak for God, you need to accord them the proper degree of respect> none.
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