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dArKeR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 11:16 PM
Original message
Why Karl Marx is the man of the moment
A penniless asylum seeker in London was vilified across two pages of a British right-wing tabloid last week. No surprises there, perhaps -- except that the villain in question has been dead since 1883.
"Marx the Monster" was the newspaper's furious reaction to the news that thousands of BBC Radio 4 listeners had chosen Karl Marx as their favorite thinker.

"His genocidal disciples include Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot -- and even Mugabe. So why has Karl Marx just been voted the greatest philosopher ever?" it asked.

The puzzlement is understandable. Fifteen years ago, after the collapse of communism in Eastern Europe, there appeared to be a general assumption that Marx was now past his time. He had shuffled off his mortal coil and been buried forever under the rubble of the Berlin Wall. No one need think about him -- still less read him -- ever again.

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/editorials/archives/2005/07/23/2003264702

On edit after publishing:
"His genocidal disciples include Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, W. Bush -- and even Mugabe. So why has Karl Marx just been voted the greatest philosopher ever?" it asked.
"His genocidal disciples include Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot -- and even Mugabe. So why has Karl Marx just been voted the greatest philosopher ever?" it asked.
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dbeach Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 11:26 PM
Response to Original message
1. KKKarl Marx..KKKarl Rove
all control freaks..

I would add sadam and ho chi mien to the list of Marx pals..

even though both were most likely CIA assets and possibly chairman mao was also intell asset
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dArKeR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 08:09 AM
Response to Reply #1
16. What about Marcos, Suharta, Rabuka, Bolkiah, Martinez, Somoza, Mont
Cordova, Noriega, Cerezo, Pahlevi, Hitler, Franco, Ozal, Selassie, Botha, Hussan II... and a cast of thousands from from America;
http://home.iprimus.com.au/korob/fdtcards/Cards_Index.html

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dbeach Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. yeh.
and many of the list had been CIA asets but some became "blow backs" that is they turned against the CIA...The reality is most likely the CIA uses these folks and then abuses or makes them villians for their agenda
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rwenos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 11:27 PM
Response to Original message
2. Superficial Claptrap
Marx was taught, with varying degrees of negativity, in my Sociology, Economics, Political Science, Psychology and Rhetoric classes in college. None of the professors was fond of Marx (perhaps surprising to the Fox News set, since this was Berkeley in 1971-11975), but he was important to understand.

How many people really know that "Das Kapital" is really about "Capital" (as in "capitalism"), and is a monograph on labor economics?

The best criticism of Marx I ever heard from a professor: "Marx was wildly optomistic about the rationality of ordinary human beings."

But if you say you've read Marx, you're a Commie. Personally, I taught the Communist Manifesto as propagandistic bullshit when I was a graduate student.
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dArKeR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #2
17. 99% of colleges do teach 'truth" thus 'truth' = 'liberal'
Edited on Sat Jul-23-05 09:01 AM by dArKeR
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niallmac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 11:41 PM
Response to Original message
3. Forbidden fruit to be reconsidered.
If for no other reason but that capitalism seems every day less glorious and more evil. It might help if we hosed down our free market preconceptions with articulate challenges from the fringe, present and past. We might be surprised what floats away like an over inflated bubble. Oh, alright, I confess. I lean socialist.
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rwenos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. The Marxist Idea That REALLY Bugs Corporatists
Is the principle of injected surplus value (created by the workers).

In other words, if the owners of the means of production pay the workers what they're actually WORTH . . . no profits.

Ergo, no for-profit employer pays workers their true worth, as measured by their value to the business.

For some reason, Big capital finds this a noxious idea.
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. In a true free market, nobody makes a profit.
Edited on Sat Jul-23-05 12:13 AM by K-W
That is one of capitalisms dirty little secrets.

If the market were free, exchanges would be equal. Profit, and capitalism rely on unequal exchanges. Capitalism requires that people be allowed to take advantage of social positions to economically exploit others.
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Dirk39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. It only bugs them a little bit...
their economists call it "added value". It's a bit more stupid and less true than Marx' concept, but it isn't, well you know, communist:-)

Wacht auf, Verdammte dieser Erde,
Dirk
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Union Thug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Marxism embraces rule of the many...
The Russian Revolution was betrayed by the rule of totalitarian state capitalism.

One of the fundamentals of marxism is as true now as it was then, there is a dialectic at work. The working class of the modern era haven't learned this lesson, even though it's the same lesson that drove our forbears to fight for labor rights, eliminate child labor, etc. Frankly, communism, as Marx spoke of it, imho, has been unfairly characterized and given some reworking to fit modern conditions, is still a living idea.

When Lenin spoke of revolution, there were many that told him that it was too early and that Capitalism must ultimately set in place the preconditions for communism. Too bad he didn't listen, I think we are entering those times and with any thought left of Nader being vilified as 'communist', it is much harder to get out the message that there is an alternative.

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Dirk39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 12:28 AM
Response to Original message
7. One christian fundamentalist across the Atlantic...
Edited on Sat Jul-23-05 12:36 AM by Dirk39
I'm German, though across the Atlantic is - thank God - you, not me.
But I had to watch this optimistic American in a TV-documentary anyway. And he did explain:
A few decades ago, millions of people were interested in Freud,
A few decades ago, millions believed in the theories of Karl Marx.
Now they are finished. No one gives a penny for them anymore.
The next to follow is Darwin.
Conclusion: God created Adam and Eve.

I admit, I still read Marx and even Freud. They have a lot more to say about the world we live in, than many people today, not to even mention so-called scientists or the worst of the scientists: the co-called ECONOMISTS: supporter of the most irrational religion ever: the free market.

It's not so much to pay hommage to Marx, it much rather tells a lot about the society we live in and the idiots, who are labbeled as scientists, esp. economists. God did create Adam and Eve and the free market. And we're happily ever after.

Discussing Marx with Americans - that's too much for me to take.
I know: Capitalism and Democracy LOVE one another. We have governments for the people, by the people, through the people.
We're just entering an epoch of global happyness called Globalization.
Only communists would use words just as CLASS or - the forbidden I-word- Imperialism. Or neo-colonialism. I would never ever do this. Also I'm a bit amused about the fact that the ruling class has started to use these words again...

O.K. I admit everything: Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité.
We still live, in some perverted way, in the epoche of Enlightment. And capitalism is about to completely fail to fullfill human needs. It's about to destroy not only the wealth of millions and billions of people all across the globe, capitalism is about to lose any legitimacy and crediblity in the so-called first world, in Europe and the USA. The more often we hear PNAZis like Bush mention "Freedom", "Democracy" and so on and so forth, the more cynical it becomes. "OPEN YOUR DOOR for U.S. investors or we kill or kidnapp or invade you". This is the first and this is the last ammendment of their constitution.

The ruling class - another forbidden word - is no longer willing to compromise with the ordinary people. Not even in the imperialist states. The dead-end addiction of capital to accumulation do not longer allow the ruling class to seek for any kind of consense with the ordinary people as it did during the era of the "New Deal" or, as we call it in Germany, the "social market society".
(And even the "New Deal" was the result of democratic fights AGAINST capitalism. The ruling class was forced to make concessions then.)

The era of Fox-TV and rigged elections in the U.S. is just the most evident sign of this. Democracy under the circumstances of global capitalism is a commercial with prostitutes or soldiers faking to be citizens in order to force you, to buy it all. And if you don't buy into it, you're part of the axis of evil.

In order to not only save but to establish a real democracy by the people for the people through the people, we need to establish an alternative to capitalism.
Capitalism simply doesn't work - except for 1% of the world's population. It kills about 26 million people every year. 26.000 children every single day. Capitalism creates seven 9/11s every single day.
And the more wealth is created for the few hundred corporations and banks that have kidnapped the whole planet, the more poverty is there. Trickle down doesn't exist. There's only one word for it: economic genocide.
99 out of 100 Americans I did discuss Marx with, have never ever read a single article of Marx, not to even mention the capital. And even fewer did understand anything at all.

They are just repeating over and over again the same three clichés they were brainwashed with in red-scar America. We might need better theories of what is going on in the world we live in today, but I hardly doubt that these theories will come from people, who did not even understand how right and prophetic Marx was, when he wrote his stuff.
And to the first of the three clichés of those, who did never ever read or understand Marx: It's a good idea, but it doesn't work - I reply: Capitalism wasn't even a good idea.

Hiding in Germany,
Dirk


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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. Marx's main idea, organizing and educating labor, works just fine.
Edited on Sat Jul-23-05 12:51 AM by K-W
His predicitions of the future (like all such predictions) turned out false. And those who followed that idea of his, were led quite astray indeed.

Capitalism is just the name given to whatever political system upholds the fuedal economy, where an ownership class controls the other classes through control of productive property.

And that has always been a bad idea indeed.
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Dirk39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. What predictions of the future?
Edited on Sat Jul-23-05 01:26 AM by Dirk39
The Marx, I have read, did reject to picture the future in any way. And Marx did, besides some notes about privat property - the ruling class loves him for that, it's their nightmare - reject to describe socialism, not to even mention communism. He didn't write 4000 pages about communism, he did write 4000 pages about capitalism.

I do not want to support everything Marx has said, but if we talk about "predictions": could you think of any other philosopher in 1848 writing stuff like this, more than 150 years ago:
(And the communist manifesto was meant much more as a leaflet, not a scientific work for academics:
"The bourgeoisie cannot exist without constantly revolutionising the instruments of production, and thereby the relations of production, and with them the whole relations of society. Conservation of the old modes of production in unaltered form, was, on the contrary, the first condition of existence for all earlier industrial classes. Constant revolutionising of production, uninterrupted disturbance of all social conditions, everlasting uncertainty and agitation distinguish the bourgeois epoch from all earlier ones. All fixed, fast-frozen relations, with their train of ancient and venerable prejudices and opinions, are swept away, all new-formed ones become antiquated before they can ossify. All that is solid melts into air, all that is holy is profaned, and man is at last compelled to face with sober senses his, real conditions of life, and his relations with his kind.

The need of a constantly expanding market for its products chases the bourgeoisie over the entire surface of the globe. It must nestle everywhere, settle everywhere, establish connexions everywhere.

The bourgeoisie has through its exploitation of the world market given a cosmopolitan character to production and consumption in every country. To the great chagrin of Reactionists, it has drawn from under the feet of industry the national ground on which it stood. All old-established national industries have been destroyed or are daily being destroyed. They are dislodged by new industries, whose introduction becomes a life and death question for all civilised nations, by industries that no longer work up indigenous raw material, but raw material drawn from the remotest zones; industries whose products are consumed, not only at home, but in every quarter of the globe. In place of the old wants, satisfied by the production of the country, we find new wants, requiring for their satisfaction the products of distant lands and climes. In place of the old local and national seclusion and self-sufficiency, we have intercourse in every direction, universal inter-dependence of nations. And as in material, so also in intellectual production. The intellectual creations of individual nations become common property. National one-sidedness and narrow-mindedness become more and more impossible, and from the numerous national and local literatures, there arises a world literature.

The bourgeoisie, by the rapid improvement of all instruments of production, by the immensely facilitated means of communication, draws all, even the most barbarian, nations into civilisation. The cheap prices of commodities are the heavy artillery with which it batters down all Chinese walls, with which it forces the barbarians’ intensely obstinate hatred of foreigners to capitulate. It compels all nations, on pain of extinction, to adopt the bourgeois mode of production; it compels them to introduce what it calls civilisation into their midst, i.e., to become bourgeois themselves. In one word, it creates a world after its own image.

The bourgeoisie has subjected the country to the rule of the towns. It has created enormous cities, has greatly increased the urban population as compared with the rural, and has thus rescued a considerable part of the population from the idiocy of rural life. Just as it has made the country dependent on the towns, so it has made barbarian and semi-barbarian countries dependent on the civilised ones, nations of peasants on nations of bourgeois, the East on the West.

The bourgeoisie keeps more and more doing away with the scattered state of the population, of the means of production, and of property. It has agglomerated population, centralised the means of production, and has concentrated property in a few hands. The necessary consequence of this was political centralisation. Independent, or but loosely connected provinces, with separate interests, laws, governments, and systems of taxation, became lumped together into one nation, with one government, one code of laws, one national class-interest, one frontier, and one customs-tariff.

The bourgeoisie, during its rule of scarce one hundred years, has created more massive and more colossal productive forces than have all preceding generations together. Subjection of Nature’s forces to man, machinery, application of chemistry to industry and agriculture, steam-navigation, railways, electric telegraphs, clearing of whole continents for cultivation, canalisation or rivers, whole populations conjured out of the ground — what earlier century had even a presentiment that such productive forces slumbered in the lap of social labour?

We see then: the means of production and of exchange, on whose foundation the bourgeoisie built itself up, were generated in feudal society. At a certain stage in the development of these means of production and of exchange, the conditions under which feudal society produced and exchanged, the feudal organisation of agriculture and manufacturing industry, in one word, the feudal relations of property became no longer compatible with the already developed productive forces; they became so many fetters. They had to be burst asunder; they were burst asunder.

Into their place stepped free competition, accompanied by a social and political constitution adapted in it, and the economic and political sway of the bourgeois class.

A similar movement is going on before our own eyes. Modern bourgeois society, with its relations of production, of exchange and of property, a society that has conjured up such gigantic means of production and of exchange, is like the sorcerer who is no longer able to control the powers of the nether world whom he has called up by his spells. For many a decade past the history of industry and commerce is but the history of the revolt of modern productive forces against modern conditions of production, against the property relations that are the conditions for the existence of the bourgeois and of its rule. It is enough to mention the commercial crises that by their periodical return put the existence of the entire bourgeois society on its trial, each time more threateningly. In these crises, a great part not only of the existing products, but also of the previously created productive forces, are periodically destroyed. In these crises, there breaks out an epidemic that, in all earlier epochs, would have seemed an absurdity — the epidemic of over-production. Society suddenly finds itself put back into a state of momentary barbarism; it appears as if a famine, a universal war of devastation, had cut off the supply of every means of subsistence; industry and commerce seem to be destroyed; and why? Because there is too much civilisation, too much means of subsistence, too much industry, too much commerce. The productive forces at the disposal of society no longer tend to further the development of the conditions of bourgeois property; on the contrary, they have become too powerful for these conditions, by which they are fettered, and so soon as they overcome these fetters, they bring disorder into the whole of bourgeois society, endanger the existence of bourgeois property. The conditions of bourgeois society are too narrow to comprise the wealth created by them. And how does the bourgeoisie get over these crises? On the one hand by enforced destruction of a mass of productive forces; on the other, by the conquest of new markets, and by the more thorough exploitation of the old ones. That is to say, by paving the way for more extensive and more destructive crises, and by diminishing the means whereby crises are prevented.

The weapons with which the bourgeoisie felled feudalism to the ground are now turned against the bourgeoisie itself."

I cannot help, but still being impressed, although just as Marx used to say, commenting on the French "Marxists" of the late <18>70s: "All I know is that I am not a Marxist."
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1890/letters/90_08_05.htm
Dirk
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. You dont need to convince me to appreciate Marx.
Edited on Sat Jul-23-05 01:27 AM by K-W
Marx didnt focus on the future, you are right, but he did describe it just the same. And the belief in an inevitable or even possible global revolution was a destructive one.

Marx had a certain faith in history. A faith that the historical narrative would go in a certain direction.

I dont blame him for it. If he were born today Im sure he wouldnt think the same way, and if I was born then I probably would have thought similarly.
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Dirk39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. O.K. comrade...
I couldn't decide, if the mechanical perspective on history, which would automatically create a socialist society after capitalism, is really "marxist" or just a creation of the established labour-movement after Marx. And, if I'm honest, I'm not even interested in deciding, if Marx was partly responsible for this mechanistic view off history, which has led to the disgusting katechism of Marxism-Leninism in the later Sovietunion. I really admire him still and esp. against the nonsense, people write about him, but it would be really embarassing to me, if we would not have to say something else and something different today. But please not something that was said one thousand times before and one thousand times after Marx and still isn't true.

To me it seems, history is a bit slower, than he thought it would be, and it's much faster, on the other hand.

But in the world, we live in today, it doesn't sound outfashioned to me at all, to suppose that if we don't find an alternative to capitalism, we will end in barbarism, if we didn't archieve it already.

When the bourgeois - did I write "bourgeois" - philosophers predicted the end of history in the 80ies and a world-wide democratic free market societey with wealth and peace everywhere after the destruction of the Soviet Union:
how ridiculous was that? - And exactly these are the people, who have declared Marx is dead over and over again. They did just live for a few years, singing what their masters wanted to hear, that's for sure. Read the stuff that was written in the 80ies again. It's really funny.

Not many people, besides some stubborn marxists, might have predicted, that history isn't over in any way. That we will enter one of the darkest times, humanity was ever exposed to. And that the works of these philosophers written 16 years ago, sound much more outdated today than Marx predictions of capitalism.

Dirk
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gtar100 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 02:44 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. An alternative to capitalism may be...
A blending of socialism and capitalism. What works best in the public realm ought to remain there, ie, health care, energy distribution, public transportation, water rights, public welfare, public grants for scientific research and the arts and humanities. And capitalism must be well regulated in order to ensure that it works in the best interests of humanity and life on earth. Profits from suffering need to be eliminated entirely (ie, war profiteering, death profiteering, disease profiteering). Speaking as a government official must be as though "under oath", especially on the Senate and Congressional floors and any speech or press conference given in official capacity.

For a more thorough read, check out http://www.thomhartmann.com/tencommandments.shtml">Thom Hartmann's Ten Steps To Restore Democracy To America

I'm no scholar on Marx or communism, but from my read of The Communist Manifesto, I would say that communism as Marx envisioned never existed because all so-called "communist" countries are run by totalitarian regimes and dictators...yet another form of the ruling class suppressing and using the working class for their own aims. If I'm in error in this, I would be most attentive to corrections.

And it's a damn shame that most Americans have a knee-jerk reaction to the words "communism" and "socialism" without any understanding at all of their meaning. And I would throw in their knee-jerk acceptance of capitalism as the be-all, end-all answer to every question. As a group, our thinking in general has sunk to all-time lows. Our best and brightest minds remain suppressed and ridiculed.
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Dirk39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 04:30 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. People come first...
1. I want to critizise you:
You say you're no scholar of Marx or communism in any way. I can live with that. But why do you repeat for the millionth time the same old clichés? It's like discussing the Iraq war and people will tell you: but he had WMD's, 'cause Cheney said so. If you didn't study Marx, why don't you simply talk about the question, if you would prefer to live in the Cuba of Fidel Castro or the US-created Iraq of Saddam Hussein or the CIA-US-United-Fruit conmpany of Guatemala? Or if you prefer the Chile of Allende to the Chile of Pinochet? I guess you would prefer to be tortured and killed by some fashists or you would prefer to starve. Starvation works, communism doesn't work.

As far as I can tell you, Marx was convinced that a socialist revolution could only take place in a developped capitalist society with a developped civil society, because socialism is an even more developped form of democracy, liberated from the boundaries of profits for the few. For any marxist I can think off, socialism in Russia wasn't possible. Even Lenin did know this.

This "communism never existed" phrase is simply useless. It's not just not true, it isn't even wrong, it is irrelevant if you really study Marx, or even more so the world we live in.

Besides, you talk about the things that are really important:
welfare, human rights, human dignity. Every single human being on this planet has the right to have enough to eat, has a right for healthcare, if he or she is sick, has the right, to have enought water to drink, has the right to have a roof on top of her or his head. THESE are the things we are fighting for. And a society that does not give that right to billions of people is not worth to be called a democracy and it is not worth to survive.
This whole talk about "communism is a nice idea, but it doesn't work" just turns us into people, who are confronted with millions of homeless people in the most wealthy country ever on this planet, replying: o.k. it's not nice, but: Communism doesn't work!

I don't know, if what these people call "communism" works or doesn't work: but I know that there's still enough for all of us and the misery we live in is man-made, it's not a destiny. And democracy means that we - people with a soul and a brain and a heart - do decide about the way, we want to live and we have these abilities. And if you believe that this is not the case and that some greedy idiots of the wealthy elite should run this planet: well, o.k. But never ever use words like democracy or freedom in my presence again.

The ruling class will never be confronted with the idea, that "neoliberalism" doesn't work. It doesn't have to work as long as it works for them and a multi-billion dollar industry is conving us that it is in our interest. And whenever we open our mouth, they will tell us that we are communists or that communism doesn't work.
Like one marxist did say: I'm tired of calling myself a marxist: whatever I say, people will reply: you are a marxist. Whatever I write, the people will bill it on Karl Marx. How powerfull is this guy: He's dead for 150 years and he's still getting the credit for everything I say.

If only my english would be better...
Dirk
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. Marxism is a post-capitailist philosophy indeed.
Edited on Sat Jul-23-05 12:25 PM by K-W
That is why Lenin was waiting for the German revolution. It was thought that the most industrialized nation would be the nation that led the global revolution.

The whole point of communism is that a super-industrialized country is in a unique position to reorganize itself in a way that would take care of everyone because of its technology.
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. Socialism and Capitalism cannot be mixed.
Edited on Sat Jul-23-05 12:19 PM by K-W
It is a misconception. Capitalism is not markets, is not currency, is not trade. Capitalism is social order where a class of owners controls productive property allowing them to control and exploit workers.

A socialism with markets, a form of private property, and limited commercialism would not be in any way shape or form a capitalism.

The problem is that most people dont know what either capitalism or socialism are, even though most people live in a capitalism.

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Dirk39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-05 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #18
24. Hello again!
I pretty much agree with what you say. The most stupid thing, the left did, esp. people who label themselves "radical" leftists, is to let it happen, that people think we're against "free enterprise". We use concepts, equating moms and daddys little shop around the corner with Enron. And we let it happen, that the corporate owned and government media talk about "business". One of the most mystifying concepts ever. They do not even mention multinational corporations and banks. It's as if those small shop-owners, who are destroyed every day by exactly those multinational corporations - 300 every day in the USA if I'm informed correctly - are in the same league with Enron, Deutsche Bank and so on and so forth. And we are the enemies, 'cause we're against "free enterprise".
Sorry if my other posts were a little bit over the top, but I really am as angry and desperate about what is going on now as never before in my life. We're in the midst of the most serious crisis in modern history and we're confronted with a situation that is much worse than the situation humanity faced during the 30ies in the last century, much worse. I cannot help but seeing things this way and I really hope I'm wrong.

Hello from Germany,
Dirk
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 05:54 AM
Response to Original message
15. Does one blame every act of genocide done in the name of Christ on Jesus?
Edited on Sat Jul-23-05 05:55 AM by Douglas Carpenter


I am NOT a Marxist. I have argued and debated with Marxist on countless occasions.

But--Marx did put forward brilliant analysis--far from perfect--but brilliant.

The statement above, ""His genocidal disciples include Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot -- and even Mugabe", is the extreme of intellectual dishonesty.

It's disgusting.

______________________




http://www.iwtnews.com/


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daydreamer Donating Member (503 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. I agree
It was not Marx's fault that he was elevated to the status of God. Marx was a philosopher. As a thinker, he had some good ideas and some bad ideas like any other great thinker.
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lovuian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
20. Some Marx quotes Religion is the opiate of the people
and the working class will rise up when oppressed...

He has fundamental basic proven theories.

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AmericanLiberal Donating Member (78 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 05:37 PM
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23. That's because Marx was the most profound CRITICAL thinker
More than anyone else, Marx opened up the eyes of millions of people to the nature of the political system.
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