How To End The War - Paul Craig Roberts

[Spiffarino]

How To End The War (link)

George W. Bush is a natural born liar. He lied us into a war, and now he is lying to keep us there. In his October 6 self-congratulatory speech at that neoconservative shrine, the National Endowment for Democracy, the President of the United States said: "Today there are more than 80 Iraqi army battalions fighting the insurgency alongside our forces."

Eighty Iraqi battalions makes it sound like the US is just lending Iraq a helping hand. I wonder what Congress and the US commanders in Iraq thought when they heard there were 80 Iraqi battalions that American troops are helping to fight insurgents? Just a few days prior to Bush’s speech, Generals Casey and Abizaid told Congress that, as a matter of fact, there was only one Iraqi battalion able to undertake operations against insurgents.

I wonder, also, who noticed the great contradiction in Bush’s speech. On the one hand, he claims steady progress toward freedom and democracy in Iraq. On the other hand, he seeks the American public’s support for open-ended war.

Paul Craig Roberts: A rare anti-war Republican and a great American. I don't agree with him all the time, but he always gives my brain something nutritious to chew on.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

1. Make republicans finish school... that's a start.... make them take

history too... let them read up on Iran Contra, Pinochet and our "freedom fighters in Afghanistan.

[Spiffarino]

3. It wouldn't change most of their minds

Most FReepublicans are too invested in hero-worshipping Bush & Co. to let something as trivial as facts or evidence get in the way of their cult-like devotion to their Glorious Leader.

In fact, most of the ones I've known think all that stuff was just wonderful and can't understand why anybody would think they were bad things. Hardcore neocons don't mind death and destruction, law breaking, or just plain nastiness as long as it's their side that does it.

IOKIYAR, y'know. :nuke:

[skullj]

14. 4 moronic years thats the truth... n/t

n/t

[Boo Boo]

2. Of course, the impeachment petition has been tried before...

but I think it's time to try again. When you've got a guy like Roberts trying to rally people to petition for the impeachment of a Republican President, I think it's time to try again... before it's too late.

Nominated.

[Spiffarino]

4. PCR saw the lunacy of the neocon hard right early

He's a brave man who has been hammering relentlessly on the Duhbya regime from the beginning, but he was a lone voice in the wilderness until recently. More and more people across the political landscape have begun to listen, thank goodness, and his articles are circulating far and wide.

I hope more like him will come forward and denounce these loonies before they succeed in turning US into a third-world country.

[rfkrfk]

5. Iraq has 100-plus battalions, of varying capability

my understanding is, the Minisrty of Defence
is capable on commanding {my term would be 'practicing commanding'}
one battalion.

then other 100, can 'lead', with US help, called Level 2,
or help the US, called Level 3.

with that said, I don't have any special source of info,
and my recommendation to everyone is:

don't believe everything you read, I don't


edit, adding:

my prediction is that there will be mercenaries
and 'advisors' there, for a long time

[ElectroPrincess]

6. I don't think so ...

"my prediction is that there will be mercenaries and 'advisors' there, for a long time"

Nope, the purse strings are closing with a vengeance. Between Iraq and these recent natural disasters, the USA will not be able to even "maintain" an occupation in Iraq, much less pay substantially HIGHER SALARIES to mercenaries. The competent KILLERS are not the type to be outsourced ... they need to be evil AND intelligent - that means salaries of around $100,000 / year.

It soon will be crunch time as I believe the new "carrots" the military recruiters are offering will come across like the proverbial "turd in the punch bowl."

I have hope because of Bush's proven "Reverse Midas Touch," we may pull out of Iraq before we lose 58,000+ thousand of our troops, i.e., our lesson in Vietnam.

[rfkrfk]

7. disagree

IMO, it would be an easy burden for the US
or the international community to provide
twenty or so advisors for each battalion,
plus an anti-coup {speling?} force of several thousand.

To me, the bigger issue is,
is there, a civilian gov't, a civilian commander-in-chief,
a civilian Ministry of Defence,
to command?

[ElectroPrincess]

8. That's cool ...

But having lived in the Middle East (as an outsider) while my Father (US Army Engineer Officer) built airports and run ways for the former Shah (Iran), I can tell you from first and family knowledge - Unless they "Put in" (via CIA installment) a BRUTAL dictatorship like that of Saddam and the Former Shah of Iran, *anyone* of western descent does NOT want to be anywhere in Iraq when the lion's share of the USA Military returns to The States.

Why? The Middle Eastern People, especially the Iraqis, in general - becoming a LARGE ... can we say OVERWHELMING MAJORITY hate our guts!

If you review your history of the USA's relationships with the dictators across the Middle East, you will know why. Let's just say that a combination of containing "Shock and Awe", "Kicking in People's Doors In", "Arresting and torturing innocents", "lack of security" and any "basic services" has ABSOLUTELY BURNED UP ALL GOOD WILL FOR THE USA by the people of Iraq - in any real way, shape or form.

It will take decades after they "kick our asses out" to re-establish a positive diplomatic relationship with this country.

However, as I mentioned above, if they can find a man as brutal as Saddam (but OUR boy), then the native peoples will be kept in check through state sponsored terror ... all will be "sweetness and light" for Halliburton, et. al. in the Oil Business.

I personally think that Nationalism will rule the day and we will eventually (hopefully before THOUSANDS more die) decide that the cost is not worth it ... the goal of "a budding democracy in Iraq" is NOT attainable.

Damn the neo-con arm chair warriors! :puke:

[Spiffarino]

9. I was born in the ME

...as an outsider as well. My family spent many years in Saudi Arabia and a few months in Iraq. The one thing my parents always said is that the Arab has a deep sense of honor and a long memory. Any way you slice it, a government that is democratic AND favorably disposed to America is a pipe dream.

I believe you are entirely correct. There will be a strongman. He may be put in place by the US or our allies in the region, or one will come from inside Iraq. Either way, democracy isn't going to rise under the current set of circumstances. Think of Maslow's Hierarchy. People are willing to give up almost anything to be secure. Democracy will flourish only when it's safe to do so.

[rfkrfk]

11. there won't be just one strongman

It just won't happen that way.
The country would break up.

How do folks here feel about the
UN presence in Iraq?

[ElectroPrincess]

16. That's excellent ... we are both "westerners" who have lived in the ME

Don't know if you are an Army Brat too but that is so cool!

No, guess the only area that you and I differ is that, I'm hoping against hope, that the beaten down (but not out!) Iraqi natives are fed up with all Autocratic Federal Rule of this artificially formed country. I'm hoping that they will split off and fight like hell for their independence.

However, the odds are that you are right, in that, Monarchies (BRUTAL!) tend to be the norm within the ME. I have a feeling, no true facts, that the natives of Iraq are different and hardened to an all out war for their independence. In that way, I truly believe that they will fight more like the Vietnamese people did in the name of Nationalism during the 60s and 70s. We killed over 2 MILLION, but "the Vietnamese People" would NOT QUIT fighting our occupation of their country. I believe that the Iraqi people have "had enough" of occupation. You see, even with a BRUTAL dictator, the Iraqis KNOW that the USA is pulling his strings. That will be a NON-STARTER. Unlike Iran, where the coup was not quite as "in your face" and the USA was a BUDDY to the Shah, like we are to the Ruling Class (The Royal Family) in Saudi Arabia. The Iraqi people KNOW that unless there's a major withdrawal, the USA whose killed many innocents and caused so much suffering, will be the PUPPET-MASTER of any brutal dictator. That will not play well with the masses.

Well, I hope and pray for the true spirit of our Great Country to be revealed as humanitarian and that the Iraqi people can begin to live in peace, free from foreign oppression.

[Spiffarino]

23. Dad worked for Aramco.

My brother and sister remember it. I was too young, but I heard all the stories growing up.

I was also extremely close to the Jewish family that lived next door growing up. Anti-semitism and arab-bashing piss me off in equal measure. How's that for confused?

[skullj]

25. Vietnamese Dead

The revised numbers for Vietnamese killed in two decades of war is approximately 2 M North Vietnamese Army, 2 M South, and 1.1 M civilians. This adds up to approximately 1 out of every 10 people in Vietnam. Some people suggest even these numbers are deflated.

[skullj]

26. I also disagree

If the United States leaves Iraq, it won't be because of an inability to pay for operations, or a lack of troops. The United States has a GDP of $11.75 trillion, and armed forces numbering 499,000 active duty troops, and 700,000 reserves. Military expenditures are 3.3% of the GDP, less than half of what was spent during the cold war. So far less than $300 billion has been spent for 2 1/2 years of operations in Iraq.

If the United States leaves Iraq anytime soon, it will be a purely political decision.

[bsartist]

10. Yes

that was good and nutritious.

[skullj]

12. An abstract concept called "Just War"

I post this with the understanding that Iraq is a war based on false pretenses, that "The War on Terror" is a poor grammatical choice, and that this war may be no more than a proof of concept for the neo-con theory of nation building.

However, I disagree with Ted Kennedy (A man I otherwise deeply respect), and other democrats who argue for immediate withdrawal. I don't think they should argue for withdrawal, they need to urge the president to finally get it right. To Republicans "abandoning the Iraqi people" is just a clever talk point to make Democrats look foolish, but there really are hundreds of thousands of people who will suffer from an immediate U.S. withdrawal.

Congress should seize the initiative from the President, and take a more proactive role in the Iraq operations, even if it means sacrificing an '06 victory.

[bsartist]

13. This president

is done. completely done. with everything that's happened lately, including the 'rehearsal with the troops' today, seriously, he's pathetic. he should just do us all a favor and resign now.

[skullj]

15. IMHO

in my humble opinion, we liberals need to be careful about gloating, the next thing you know is the Bush lovers will suddenly be re-dignified and see liberals as an opponent again, then suddenly we have a bunch of 4 more year idiots doing their stupid blind chant again.

No, we should just smile happily, loudly praise Bush in his wonderful "centrist" pick of Harriet Miers for the Supreme Court, and watch the GOP self destruct from the distance. The last thing we need is a bunch of rabid GOP'ers offended by a little liberal smugness.

[Spiffarino]

21. Your humble opinion is well noted

...but they'll do it anyway, with or without our help. Every election cycle has the same theme for the RW - don't try to drive up your candidate's numbers as much as drive your opponent's down.

What they stand for is nothing ordinary people could ever like, so they have to win through smear and fear. It's the only thing they have. Unfortunately, it works very well and we are going to have to acknowledge that and slam them at every turn.

[Wind Dancer]

17. Why do you object to immediate withdrawal?

Welcome to DU!

[skullj]

19. Power Vacuum Problem

If we suddenly pulled out of Iraq, what would happen to the Iraqi people? Iraq would probably cease to be a country almost immediately. How would Turkey deal with 5 million Kurds in Northern Iraq, suddenly without a nation to protect them under international law? Would Iran invade Southern Iraq, and if it did what would happen to the Sunni minority living there?

Those questions are open to speculation, but it is almost certain that fighting would immediately break out between the various sects, and civil war is the bloodiest form of war.

I would agree with Colin Powell who said "You broke it, you bought it."

[Wind Dancer]

22. The Iraqis do NOT want occupiers in their country!

They are capable of governing their country effectively even under these difficult circumstances. There were no "insurgents" in Iraq until we illegally invaded the country. It's a racial stereotype to say the Iraqis can't survive without us. We ARE the problem!

Our responsibility now is to give them back their country with all of its resources. We need to provide funds to rebuild the infrastructure that we destroyed.

Our troops need to come home NOW. They were sent to war based on a pack of lies, how many more of these soldiers must die before we get the hell out? How many more innocent Iraqis will die before we leave?

:mad:

[skullj]

24. What happens when we leave?

Civil war.

The 'Iraqis' that you speak of aren't 'A Race', the country is made up of Arabs (75-80%), Kurds (15-20%), Assyrians and Armenians (5%, or about 1.3 million people). The Arabs themselves are about 65% Shiite, and 35% Sunni, with 3% Christian squeezed in somewhere, and even these religious factions are divided into subgroups (12'ers, 7'ers, 5'ers, and the 4 Sunni identifications).

To call the Iraqi's a race of people is itself a terrible stereotype, in fact, in the way Muslims establish identity, mere Nationality is a distant 5th to Family, Religion, ethnicity, and individual accomplishments. The fact is that many Sunni's, and Shiites say they want the United States to leave, while many Kurds do not, but the situation is much more complicated than widespread public opinion. Do the groups in question enjoy the security that U.S. troops provide? Undoubtedly. Do they resent the oppression that U.S. troops also bring? Of course....

Right now it seems there are two choices:

1. Stay the course (i.e. maintain the status quo), or

2. Lets get the hell out and pass on responsibility.

Both choices are clearly unacceptable; what we need are creative solutions involving Iraq's neighbors and the international community. Its time for people to stop using the Liberal, or Conservative talking points and get to fixing the damn problem.

Respectfully yours,

A Worried Liberal

[Spiffarino]

27. Good post

What else can I say?

I feel the same way about Iraq as I do about Afghanistan; we bear the responsibility of repairing what we have destroyed not only because it's the right thing, it's also the smart thing.

Sadly, it may never happen even if we have the means and the will to undertake rebuilding both countries. Iraq and Afghanistan are not Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan. First, neither country has been utterly defeated in a protracted war; second, the current band of monkeys in Washington doesn't understand or care about Islamic culture and are burning bridges - metaphorically speaking - every day.

We've already lost whatever goodwill we may once have had through arrogance, impotence and broken promises. Pulling out may be our only option.

[K-W]

18. There is no right way to illegally occupy a country. EOM

[skullj]

20. Invasion for Humanitarian reasons

Invasion for humanitarian reasons is still a very contentious issue under international law. While it was the justification that Hitler used for invading Poland, it was also the justification that Vietnam used for ousting the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia. For an international community unwilling to fulfill its Art. 38 obligations, quickly naming unilateral occupation and invasion by the U.S. "illegal" is hypocritical to say the least.