Shh! Hill Takes Aim At Guns

[derby378]

Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton has quietly stepped up her fight for tighter gun control by signing on to a new push to make public a national database of weapons used in crimes and illegal sales.

Her résumé on gun control, a pet issue among the Democratic Party's liberal base, includes calls for a ban on assault weapons and so-called "cop killer" armor-piercing ammo - yet she hasn't personally taken a lead role in any gun legislation in this Congress.

http://www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/61903.htm

[acmejack]

1. OMG!

[HillDem]

2. But what about my constitutional right to kill cops?

I hate it when libruhls trample on my rights

[bunkerbuster1]

6. See! Ah tole yew Hitlery stole mah gunz!

...and hilarity ensues.

[Minnesota Libra]

3. OK, I understand some of this but....................

.........I don't get what good will a "national database of weapons used in crimes and illegal sales" do??? What is that supposed to accomplish? I understand why assault weapons and "cop killer weapons" need to be outlawed but I get the feeling these lawmakers won't be happy until the cops and criminals will be the only ones with guns. What's that all about???:grr:

[derby378]

4. Sorry, but I have to ask...

what is a "cop killer weapon?"

A .22 squirrel rifle can kill just as easily as a .357 if you know how to use it right.

[Minnesota Libra]

5. Yea, was wondering that myself but didn't want to sound stupid.........

....by asking. I think, don't quote me on this though, but I think "cop killer" ammunition is a certain type that notoriously goes through bullet proof vests. I don't know what its official name is though.

[benEzra]

18. Those are ALREADY BANNED, since 1986...

legislative history here: http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvcopk.html

The reason the term keeps coming up, even though armor-piercing handgun ammunition is already banned, is that the gun prohibitionists would really like to give the Attorney General to ban any rifle caliber he/she wants, presumably so a future AG could ban ammo sales for the small-caliber rifles that they hate so much.

The way they have tried to do this is to take advantage of the fact that all centerfire rifle ammunition will go through Kevlar soft body armor (NIJ Level II or IIIA) like it's Saran Wrap; Kevlar is made to stop handgun rounds, not rifle rounds. To stop even the smallest rifle rounds, you need steel or ceramic hard armor (NIJ Level III or IV). The prohibitionists have proposed legislation to allow the AG to ban pretty much any ammunition that will penetrate a vest not made to stop rifle rounds, and they've suckered a few legislators who are 404 on the gun issue into supporting it.

The problem is, rifles are very rarely used in homicides at all, but I suppose any excuse will do...

[BoneDaddy]

9. True

But a cop killer weapon, I am assuming, is one that creates an incredible imbalance in power over what the cops have. Cops typically carry handguns with perhaps a rifle or shot gun in their cars.
Ever since that brutal standoff between the two guys carrying automatic high powered machine guns and the local cops carrying service revolvers the focus has been on this high powered weapons.

[MrBenchley]

11. Since even the Post didn't refer to a "cop killer weapon"

one wonders why anyone would ask this?

[AndyA]

7. There is no legitimate reason for ANYONE to have an assault weapon.

NONE.

If you're in combat, OK. But a citizen in the United States has absolutely no reason and no business with one.

If we had a real President in office, he would have never allowed the ban on assault weapons to expire.

[derby378]

14. Sorry, but I gotta disagree with you

It's not of Bill of Needs, it's a Bill of Rights.

Let's be clear on this. "Assault weapon" is a term coined by Josh Sugarmann of the VPC to denote any semi-automatic rifle or pistol (one shot per trigger pull) that has certain personal safety features and/or uses a magazine that holds more than 10 rounds of ammo.

These weapons have been in private hands for approximately 100 years. No sense in trying to ban them now.

[slackmaster]

17. I started shooting semiautomatic rifles because of a vision problem

I am right-handed but left-eyed due to amblyopia (lazy eye). Left-handed bolt-action rifles are scarce, and I find them almost as awkward to use as right-handed ones.

The AW ban had nothing to do with combat weapons. It covered semiautomatics that were designed for the civilian market.

If we had a real President in office, he would have never allowed the ban on assault weapons to expire.

The President does not have the power to make laws. That is the job of Congress. Bush said he'd sign an extension or renewal of the ban of it got to his desk. His track record on truthfulness notwithstanding, we have no way of knowing whether or not he was lying about that.

[benEzra]

19. Assault weapon = civilian rifle with handgrip that sticks out

There is no legitimate reason for ANYONE to have an assault weapon.

NONE.

If you're in combat, OK. But a citizen in the United States has absolutely no reason and no business with one.

If we had a real President in office, he would have never allowed the ban on assault weapons to expire.

Please read the definition of "assault weapon" the prohibitionists are using, rather than seeing a Scary Term and reacting reflexively.

An "assault weapon" is defined by most proposed laws as any civilian (NFA Title 1) rifle or shotgun with a handgrip that sticks out, any civilian shotgun with a non-fixed magazine, or any civilian firearm holding more than 10 rounds (often including Grandpa's .22 caliber squirrel rifle).

This is also an "assault weapon" according to the gun prohibition lobby:


Ruger mini-14 Ranch Rifle

Fires the least powerful of all common centerfire rifle calibers; suitable for groundhogs and coyotes, but not considered powerful enough to hunt deer with. Factory magazine capacity of FIVE rounds. And banned in the USA, had S.1431/H.R.2038 passed in 2004...

The assault-weapon bait-and-switch is a deliberate attempt by the prohibitionists to play to the ignorance of the average American concerning firearms and Federal firearms law. That's just wrong.

My wife and I own several firearms the prohibitionists call "assault weapons." We intend to keep them.

If you don't like guns with modern styling, don't own one, but don't try to take mine away at gunpoint, please. Thanks...

[MrBenchley]

21. If that were true, Ben, don't you look silly screaming for one

But of course, you and I both know how disingenuous you really are.

"This is also an "assault weapon" according to the gun prohibition lobby:"
And according to the gun peddlers themselves. But don't let a little thing like a fact keep you from spreading your trigger-happy hooey.

http://www.gunnersden.com/index.htm.mini-14.html

[benEzra]

22. We already own a few, as the prohibitionists define them...

The VPC calls my wife's historically significant 1952 Simonov carbine an "assault weapon," and I have an antique bolt-action rifle with a bayonet, a SAR-1 (protruding handgrip), and a mini-14. The prohibitionists would like to snag my wife's handgun (Glock) on the coattails of the "assault weapon" bait-and-switch as well.

If that were true, Ben, don't you look silly screaming for one. But of course, you and I both know how disingenuous you really are.

But I'm not, of course...which is why your sky-is-falling rhetoric about rifle handgrips that stick out, and your portrayal of people who own them as sociopaths, is rather amusing. IMHO, those who look the silliest are those claiming that a 5-round, straight-wooden-stocked utility rifle, based on a 1930's design and chambered for the least powerful of all common rifle cartridges, is somehow SO dangerous that it needs to be banned/confiscated.

The gun prohibition lobby's obsession with modern-looking rifles is particularly puzzling since rifles of any type are used so rarely in crimes. Check out the 2004 FBI stats for yourself: http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/offenses_reported/offense_tabulations/table_20-22.html. Or download the Excel spreadsheet at http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/documents/04tbl20a.xls, and sum the columns.

If you do, you find that of 14,121 homicides in 2004, only 393--2.8 percent were committed with all types of rifles combined. That's less than half as many people (933) as were murdered using fists and feet. So much for the "weapon of choice of criminals" BS...

And according to the gun peddlers themselves. But don't let a little thing like a fact keep you from spreading your trigger-happy hooey.

http://www.gunnersden.com/index.htm.mini-14.html

LOL! You cite a page so ignorant, they call a recoil reducer a "muzzle break" (that's brake, as on a car, dude), and imply you can "silence" a Mach 3 rifle cartridge...nice try...

Maybe you should check out the manufacturer's own web site instead, where you'll find that it's marketed as an all-purpose farm/utility rifle (that's why it's called the mini-14 Ranch Rifle, you know...)

But, since you think the mini-14 is such an uber-dangerous rifle, maybe you could clue me in why this centerfire .22 caliber rifle is so dangerous even in its 5-round, straight-stocked configuration...

[MrBenchley]

24. And the gun peddlers call them assault weapons too

as we saw.

"your portrayal of people who own them as sociopaths"
I'm happy to let the evidence speak for itself. Which it does.

"You cite a page so ignorant"
Hey, what does any sane person expect from a website calling itself "gunners den"....the whole movement is nothing but ignorance, dishonesty, and psychosis wedded to hysteria and irresponsibility.

[benEzra]

27. So you validate the contention that the "assault weapon" bait-and-switch

was intended to grab all civilian self-loading long guns with detachable magazines, like the Ranch Rifle and others (which Dianne Feinstein once described as "particularly suitable for sporting purposes," by the way). The Ranch Rifle doesn't even have a protruding handgrip or a threaded muzzle.

And if you consider the Ranch Rifle an "assault weapon," you'd have to consider the Ruger Mini Thirty deer rifle an "assault weapon" also:



So much for hunting guns being safe from the prohibitionists...

"your portrayal of people who own them as sociopaths"
I'm happy to let the evidence speak for itself. Which it does.

So you hate people whom you've never met on the basis of whether or not they own a gun with the handgrip shaped a certain way, or whether or not they own a hunting rifle that you don't like. And the depth of that hatred is hard for me to comprehend; I don't hate anybody like that. Who's the one with the problem?

I guess to you it's a progressive virtue to hate those who aren't idealogically pure enough for you--which is ironic considering your support for the DLC, I'd have to say...

"You cite a page so ignorant"
Hey, what does any sane person expect from a website calling itself "gunners den"....the whole movement is nothing but ignorance, dishonesty, and psychosis wedded to hysteria and irresponsibility.

You were the one using those ignoramuses to try to back up your argument...



But one question. You hate rifles with handgrips that stick out (even though all rifles combined account for only a tiny percentage of crimes) and hate with a passion those who own them. So, what is your endgame? You want to ban them, but tens of millions of us already own them. Are you going to send the guys with automatic weapons and black body armor to our door, so you can force your views on us at machinegunpoint? Or are you just going to spit and sputter about how much you hate those of us who disagree with you, but otherwise leave us alone? If the former, what other abrogations of the Bill of Rights would you support in order to take our guns? That pesky Fourth Amendment would certainly get in your way...

Face it, gun confiscation is NOT going to happen in the United States. You can keep your gun-free utopia in New Jersey (where only 13% of the population owns guns), or move to D.C. if you want to live somewhere with even fewer lawful gun owners around. Those of us in other states like New Hampshire, Maine, Washington, and yes, North Carolina will let you live by your choices, as we live by ours...

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[benEzra]

30. Some more "assault weapons" per the prohibitionists:

"if you consider the Ranch Rifle an "assault weapon,""
As I've pointed out more than once, Ben, the people selling the fucking guns consider them assault weapons. so spare us this preposterous charade.

No, I linked to the people selling them, and they consider the mini a farm/utility rifle. You linked to a low-budget site where some guy is trying to peddle some books of questionable merit, but who apparently doesn't know the difference between a brake and a break. FYI, the manufacturer's page is here: www.ruger-firearms.com

BTW, did you bother to go out to the main page, http://www.gunnersden.com? If you had, you'd see that this is one of those low-budget, self-promoting pages of links that clutter up Google searches in such an annoying fashion...



MrB, what do you think about these "assault weapons" according to the prohibitionists?


preban Marlin Model 60 squirrel hunting rifle:




Benelli 12-gauge turkey hunting shotgun:



Elite European target competition pistol (Hammerli):



All banned in the USA as "assault weapons," if you get your way...

Now go peddle your paranoid gibberish to somebody who gives a shit. you'd be right at home over on the Free Republic.

In terms of gibberish, paranoia, and hatred, I don't think I'd be the one who would fit in so well over there. Do you even listen to yourself? Pushing the hate, trying to shout down anybody who disagrees with you, demeaning people the way I wouldn't talk to a dog, for crying out loud...a lot of that goes on over in freeperville, but it doesn't belong here.

[MrBenchley]

31. Cry me a fucking river, Ben....

"In terms of gibberish, paranoia, and hatred, I don't think I'd be the one who would fit in so well over there."
Sure you would, ben. They're all jonesing for assault weapons too....and they're willing to swallow any bit of horseshit about them, no matter how preposterous. You'd feel right at home.

"did you bother to go out to the main page, http://www.gunnersden.com ? If you had, you'd see that this is one of those low-budget, self-promoting pages of links"
That make up most gun loony websites. Fuck them all.

[benEzra]

33. Here you go...

Crying you a river... (Windows Media streaming audio, courtesy of Amazon.com's free audio samples) :nopity:





But you are the one obfuscating. It is a FACT that the prohibitionists consider the following guns to be assault weapons:












.22 caliber squirrel rifle, turkey hunting shotgun, competition target pistol, deer rifle, and groundhog/coyote rifle.


The "assault weapon" issue is a bait-and-switch, a fact of which you are quite aware...

[MrBenchley]

34. Peddle it walking, Ben....

"The "assault weapon" issue is a bait-and-switch"
Nope...it's common sense...and both necessary and popular.

[benEzra]

35. It's a bait-and-switch because the average person on the street thinks

that "assault weapons bans" cover military AK-47's and M16's and guns easily convertible to full-auto (which are already restricted by the National Firearms Act), and do NOT realize the term refers to .22 caliber squirrel rifles, turkey shotguns, Olympic-level competition handguns, civilian long guns with handgrips that stick out, and police-style defensive pistols.

"Assault weapon":

[MrBenchley]

36. The average person knows assault weapons belong off the market

Just as they know what a pantload you're peddling....

[benEzra]

37. Do you deny that this gun is banned in New Jersey as an "assault weapon"?

It IS. That is an indisputable fact, whether you consider it a "pantload" or not.

[MrBenchley]

38. Ben, I suggest you go snivel about it

to somebody who gives a shit. I don't really care that neurotics and shitheads in New Jersey are hindered in getting their hands on such lethal little toys.

[benEzra]

39. If a .22 caliber squirrel rifle is "SO lethal," then what guns do you NOT

want to ban?

You've pretty much proven my point, I think...

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[benEzra]

41. So anybody who opposes banning .22 caliber squirrel rifles

and civilian rifles/shotguns with handgrips that stick out is "right wing shithead" with a "pathetic weapons fetish"?

:eyes:

[MrBenchley]

8. The Post tries to whip up the Bernie Goetz wannabe's

into a frenzy of fear...

[madinmaryland]

10. What do you expect from the NY Post

Rather than have a review of what this proposed law is, they spend the whole artical taking potshots at Hillary and liberals in general. TRASH!!

The old Faux Network trick, use the word "Hillary" to frame your argument and make your point. Asshats.

[Ian David]

12. cop-killer bullets- armor-coated bullets to pierce bulletproof vests

Just in case the deer start wearing Teflon.

[benEzra]

23. That's a joke, right?

The funny thing is, I've heard of people talking about "deer wearing body armor" before. Wouldn't make a bit of difference, as a bullet from a hunting rifle would hardly even slow down for Kevlar...to stop a rifle bullet, you need NIJ Level III or IV hard armor (steel/titanium/ceramic)...

[Ian David]

13. Okay, killing several birds with one stone

Talking points for letters to the editors:

1) Democrats are opposed to any legislation limiting their ability to arm themselves against increasingly dangerous and oppressive far-right Republicans.

2) We hate Hillary because she isn't liberal enough. We want Barbara Boxer or Barney Frank to be our next Unitary Executive.

3) Armed gays don't get bashed. www.PinkPistols.org

4) Arming the left: Is the time now? http://legitgov.org/essay_southwell_arming_the_left_is_the_time_now_102203.html

[MrBenchley]

26. LOL!

"Armed gays don't get bashed. www.PinkPistols.org "
Armed gays don't seem to give a shit about being bashed. The Pink Pistols put Barney Frank and Barbra Streisand on their childish enemies list, but failed to mention a single one of the right wing shitheads who want gays dead and in hell soonest, like Phelps, Falwell or Dobson. But then they also used to have a link to the right wing think tank that invented them, that chortled what a good trick they were on "liberals."

I guess if you were deaf, dumb and blind and had a dishonest person describe their website to you, you might be fooled into thinking the Pink Pistols weren't phony. Hard to see who else would be stupid enough to fall for that crap.

"Arming the left: Is the time now?"
Wow. What a disgracefully imbecilic essay.

[patcox2]

15. She's a frigging mess.

This is the worst single issue for dems that there is. It alienates more people, and for no good frigging reason. A womans right to choose, thats a basic essential human right, and democrats should support that, even at the cost of popularity.

But gun control is not an issue worth losing over, and its one of the biggest reasons we lose the red states.

So this Hilary moron has managed to come up with the losingest strategy ever in democratic history. She's a DLC pro-business all the way DINO when it comes to economic policy and working people, she's wavering on abortion, and she now decides to pander to the base on gun control, the most worthless of all the base's pet issues.

Lose lose lose. the losingest washington insider dem strategy ever in history. She's so toast. She's Lieberman in a skirt.

[400Years]

16. she is an idiot

[teryang]

20. She does this crap deliberately

guarantees popular alienation.

[bemildred]

25. Can't have an effective police state with a well armed citizenry.

Watch for a Washington Consensus on this issue (although it's going to be tough for the Republican's to look to enthusiastic about "gun control".)

[Paladin]

28. Here We Go Again

Looks like the usual suspects have decamped from the Gun Dungeon to take part in a gun-related Big Forum thread---virtually the only thing that will draw them out of their fetid little home base. Everybody enjoying the pictures of the Firearms Which Are Never Ever Ever Ever To Be Referred To As Assault Weapons? I thought so. (Want to have some fun with these guys? Just say, "That rifle of yours would look better with a wooden stock" and watch them start crying like a bunch of little girls.)

Here in this Democratic forum, these gun-centric "Democrats" shit-canned Al Gore, then John Kerry, and now it's Hillary Clinton's turn. When they make common cause with the usual bunch of DU Hillary Haters, it's not going to be pretty. Moderators, you have my sympathy and admiration.....

[MrBenchley]

32. Yeah, but they have Rupert Murdoch's NY Post on their side

"Klaus is a moron, who knows only what he reads in the New York Post."

http://www.wavlist.com/movies/021/index.html