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AuntiePinko Donating Member (46 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 06:30 PM
Original message
Immigration. I'm against it. Hugely.
Dear Auntie Pinko,

Perhaps you can help me with a conflict I have in my own mind. Understand, before I begin, that I am a lifelong liberal Democrat...but there is an issue I seem to be splitting with the vast majority of liberals on. Immigration. I'm against it. Hugely.

As an unemployed American, who has been unemployed now for nearly a year, I am against any immigration, legal or otherwise...it can only increase the competition for fewer and fewer jobs. The proposed "guest worker" program really troubles me, though, as I believe those who are illegal immigrants would tend to accept lower wages, and substandard working conditions. Thus it makes it more difficult for me to get a good paying job, in acceptable working conditions.

It seems to me this "guest worker" program will continue to fuel the "race to the bottom" we see in wages, and I see absolutely nothing but harm to my own economic interests in this proposed program. I would like to see others do well, but not at my expense. Auntie, can you explain to me how this proposed "guest worker" program is anything but harmful to the economic interests of unemployed Americans like myself?

Sincerely,
Angela
Saylorsburg, PA



Dear Angela,

Auntie has seldom seen so many people, so nearsightedly confused, so emotionally augmented, so far out of proportion to all reason, as the current furor over immigration. I think we’ve bundled all the agony of the last six years into a hard, infected boil in our collective national psyche. Clever politicians from both parties have wielded a lance labeled “immigration” in an attempt to focus and relieve our discontent, but when any boil is lanced there is a lot of pain and nasty stuff spewing out, whether healing actually occurs or not.

We have loaded the immigration cart with a vast freight of concerns about the economy, about national security, about social norms and culture, about crime, law and order, about democracy itself — all matters that have become painful, festering issues over the last decades, but especially over the last six years. For six years, the pain has accumulated at frightening rates, while our government has ignored it and those who profit by it have pretended it doesn’t exist or attempted to shift the blame in ways that will preserve their profits.

Immigration is an important area of public policy and immigration policy is one of many factors that strongly affect our economy. Immigration policy has been ignored and/or misused for many decades, and America could only benefit in the long run from a sustained national discussion of immigration policy and a rational reworking of our laws and enforcement mechanisms to implement a thoughtful policy that balances competing interests. Unfortunately, the current hysteria guarantees there will be no such discussion or reworking any time soon. It’s a bit like the roof — the time to fix it is when it isn’t raining.

Because immigration carries such a heavy suitcase of mixed issues, it’s easy for each person to see only the issue(s) that concern them, and to accuse others (who are worried about other items in the immigration suitcase, as it were,) of “not getting it” with respect to the problem as a whole. And because the emotional index is so high, the accusations of “not getting it” generate even higher levels of negative emotion. Positions harden, and our risk of making things worse through either enacting “quick fix” legislation or through doing nothing at all becomes a certainty.

Because so many Americans are feeling greater levels of pain and insecurity about the economy, it’s easy to focus on how immigration policy, and especially the measures currently under consideration, affect Americans’ current economic interests. I won’t rehash all the many arguments here; they boil down to, in effect, “Our economy needs cheap labor,” versus “Cheap labor is the problem, not the solution.”

Although there are a dozen other critical aspects to immigration policy, that particular debate is at the core of most peoples’ pain, and it is one of the most intractable conflicts. Does the damage done by cheap labor outweigh the benefits of cheap labor? It’s in the interests of those who benefit most from cheap labor to convince the rest of us that we can’t live without it. And it is true that almost all of us benefit from cheap labor, though many of us are unaware of the scope of those benefits or are unwilling to admit to them.

I don’t think it is true that we can’t live without those benefits, nor that we would lose those benefits altogether by decreasing the supply of cheap labor. And I think that the damage done by cheap labor is much greater than its supporters realize or are willing to admit. Greatly decreasing the supply of cheap labor would sharply realign the US economy and cause considerable pain in the short run, but I believe in the long run it would be a positive adjustment.

It astonishes me (though perhaps it shouldn’t,) how determinedly our policy makers are ignoring the only real, practical way to decisively limit (I do not believe it is possible to eliminate) the flow of illegal immigration. It’s as though the whole establishment of Congress, the Administration, the punditry and press corps, etc., are ALL sitting there with the solution playing like a brass band three feet in front of them, and they’ve got their hands over their ears going “la la LA… I can’t HEAR anything...”

If the national consensus boils down to “it would be good to have fewer people immigrating illegally” there is a clear and simple way to achieve that: Ensure that businesses who employ illegal immigrants face devastating penalties. It isn’t even that hard to do. We have managed to ensure that businesses comply with tax withholding laws, because businesses who don’t face a very high risk of detection, and devastating penalties for noncompliance. When businesses are as reluctant to hire illegal workers as they are to cheat on withholding, the supply of jobs for illegal workers will constrict sharply, and the flow of illegal immigrants will constrict in response.

Auntie recognizes that even if our policymakers all went sane tomorrow and implemented such a program, it would not solve all of our problems or make everyone comfortable. Such a solution would not address the concerns related to culture, security, crime, etc., carried in the immigration suitcase. And it would create as many problems as it solved, especially in the short term as the supply of workers willing to take poorly-paying jobs dries up.

American businesses would be forced to seek other solutions to the problem of labor costs. Offshoring and outsourcing would probably rise sharply, and trade/tax policy debates would get emotional and ugly. Eventually, if we close off all the “easy” solutions, American business might finally be forced to make common cause with labor in demanding that our leaders take on the hard tasks of rebuilding the public infrastructure of housing, health care, transportation, communications, education, etc., so that American workers can sustain decent consumption levels on moderate wages. We will all, business and labor alike, have to make the painful sacrifices needed to pay for such rebuilding.

There will never be a shortage of outrage, emotion, chaos, and dissension in the public policy arena. If only we could find a way for someone besides lobbyists and elected officials to profit from it. By the way, I think you’re right about the “guest worker” program, Angela — and thanks for asking Auntie Pinko!
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RufusEarl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
1. Well auntie has it right,
but what she failed to mention was the fact that these laws are already on the books. But they fail to be enforced, because corp. america has washington by the preferable balls.
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Alonzo Fyfe Donating Member (35 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 07:06 PM
Response to Original message
2. I like this plan.
Force these people into even greater squalor, then pat yourself on the back for being such a good person.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-13-06 05:59 AM
Response to Original message
3. Why does Auntie Pinko hate brown people?
:sarcasm:
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spag68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-13-06 08:54 AM
Response to Original message
4. immigration
Dear Auntie Pinko: As a retire union construction worker, I have seen this fight before. It should be clear to all of us that this just another one of the rethugs. wedge issues. How it will play out is anybodies guess, but we should line up with humane policies that get the most of the situation. This group of industrial and banking elites have been after working people since the start of organized labor ie Carnegie and frick murder Homestead steelworkers in the late 1890s to break the union. It continues with the latest union busting at the FAA and the air traffic controllers. It is no coincidence that when we get rethugs. in charge bad things happen to workers, and it may be to late to stop this latest we are better then all of you idiot in the white house. Our only hope organization and cohesive all encompassing political direction. these people are being the latest pawns in the battle are our brothers and sisters. Support them as if they were your own family,as in reality they are.
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Lib Grrrrl Donating Member (801 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-13-06 12:14 PM
Original message
Thank You, Auntie
I claim credit for writing this letter to you, and I thank you for publishing and addressing it.

Meanwhile, on other threads in DU, I have been lambasted, and unfairly called a bigot, a xenophobe and a freeper because of my quite legitimate fears about my own economic security.

If the economy were much healthier, and I felt the economy could support the influx of immigrants this guest worker program will cause, into the legal job market...my attitude towards it would be much different.

I've always wanted to see everyone do well...just not at my expense. and I fear that this guest worker program would cause just such negative effects to my overall economic welfare.

I thank you for a thoughful answer. It sure isn't an easy subject, is it?

I mean....I feel horrible, in a way, for being against this guest worker program, as I stated in other threads...but I also cannot knowingly support policy that I believe will hurt my economic welfare.

Again, thank you, Auntie.
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-13-06 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
10. welcome to the site!
and thank you, Auntie, as well
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spag68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 12:48 AM
Response to Original message
17. every reasonable person
has their view. There are lots of reasons for you to feel this way,but step into the light and look with wise eye at things and it will work. I don't need to lambaste you.
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ConservativeDemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-13-06 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
5. Is it possible for "Auntie" and I to disagree more?
I'm astounded that Auntie sounds so much like the Republican House. Not only has "she" decided that immigrants are to blame for the poor economy, "she" is in favor of draconian use of law enforcement to solve a social problem. The only difference is that she wants to jail the "johns", not the "hookers".

Here are a few facts to give my friends in the left of the Party some pause.
  1. We had illegal immigration in the 1990s when Clinton was in office. The economy was great. Now we have Republicans in office, who don't see a budget that couldn't be blown out of the water. So suddenly immigrants are to blame? Way to let the Republicans off the hook, guys!

  2. US Farms and Businesses are in competition with foreign businesses that pay much less than we do. Please explain how driving our producers out of business helps our economy.

  3. Most illegal immigrants pay taxes through self-created Social Security numbers. They don't receive any benefits, because the government makes sure about citizenship before it starts writing checks. This is one major reason why Social Security is the one program that ISN'T nearly insolvent.

  4. Last time I checked, most Americans are upset about Republican tax giveaways to companies that decided to outsource high value-added (e.g. deservedly high wage) jobs. Is having a whole bunch of McJobs cleaning toilets really going to make the economic situation better?

  5. I have a blond Russian friend. Despite her heavy accent, she's NEVER been asked about her legal status. Please don't pretend this whole issue isn't fundamentally racist.

"Auntie", this whole issue is an excuse the Republicans are using to distract from their disastrous policies. I'm appalled that you would be suckered by it.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community



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Lib Grrrrl Donating Member (801 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-13-06 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. See What I Have Been Putting Up With, Auntie??
Sorry to drag you into this....
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #6
18. Yeah
that message #5 is horrible. How can you possibly take it when someone actually disagrees with you. Get over the persecution complex. That person didn't even talk about you.
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mconvente Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-13-06 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. CD, you have great insight
Every single point you make is correct. I especially love your first point - we've had illegal immigrants for a long time, but they were never blamed for as a drag on our economy - the main reason why the economy sucks is because of the republican controlled everything for the last 5 years.
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Lib Grrrrl Donating Member (801 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-13-06 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Another EMPLOYED AMERICAN Who Doesn't Get It
What do I have to say to make some of you guys understand my fears??

Let me try a scenario.

Worker A has been picking fruit for $2 an hour, because he was an illegal, and thus, most other kinds of jobs were closed off to him.

Now, we implement, guest worker program and make him legal...now the legal job market is open to him.

He happens to have similar skills to what I have, and thus is now in competition with me for job I might wish to fill.

Company X has just such a job opening. Worker A applies, and so do I. Understand that entry-level standard in my industry is around 9 dollars an hour.

Worker A indicates on his application he is looking for $6 an hour - he thinks that is a great salary - why not?? it's three times what he made picking fruit!! so he's gonna be happy with six dollars an hour. that is still three dollars below entry-level standard.

Meanwhile, I have indicated that I would like 9 dollars an hour. Our skills are about equal. guarantee you Worker A get the job for the lower wage. and this creates a downward pressure on wages, and makes it impossible for me to demand a reasonable wage.

Do you not understand where I am coming from now??

These people are not going to continue to hold the shit jobs they now hold, once they become legal. They are gonna move into the legal job market. and their wage demands will be a lot lower than those of Americans. It will thus create a downward pressure on wages, and reduce the amount WE can demand.

Why do you wish to see people like me pauperized?

Why do you insist on calling people like me "bigots" when our only real concern is for our economic welfare? I simply do not wish to be pauperized. Why am I such an ogre?

Would YOU be willing to be pauperized in this way?
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ConservativeDemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-13-06 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Some practical answers...
First, Lib Grrrl, I have been unemployed myself, many times. So I know how it feels. The last thing you need when you have bills and no money is someone giving you airy theoretical advice, so let me give you some pragmatic tips first.

  1. Try going down to your local Union hall and applying for an apprenticeship. The U.S. needs people with college degrees doing desk jobs, but it need Plumbers and Steam Fitters too. And even if they don't have room, they can often point you in a few directions that your State Employment Dept. can't.

  2. If that's really not something you can do, update and repudiate your resume. Use action words: "Finished", "Accomplished", "Performed". Avoid the passive voice and words like "assisted" and "helped". That sounds like you made coffee for the people who really got the job done.

  3. Stuck for things to put on the resume? Then volunteer. There are tons of organizations that can teach you skills that employers need. Do this, even if you're busy with a crap job.

  4. Don't lie on your resume, but don't undersell yourself either. A resume isn't a confession. It's an ad. Just as you see car dealers tout that some sports car goes from 0 to 60 in 5 seconds, leaving off the "but it gets 8 MPG" part, you need to tout your accomplishments unabashedly. No one else is going to do it for you.

  5. Never get comfortable. The best way to look for a job is to already have one.

I could go on, but hopefully you get the point.

Insofar as your nightmare scenario is concerned, are you aware that you're already living it? And still would be even if all the illegal immigrants were magically shipped back to their countries of origin? Those Chilean grapes you find at the Supermarket weren't picked by people earning $8 dollars an hour. They're lucky to get $1. The same goes for just about everything you can buy at WalMart. They import from countries where the pay scale is more in th 20 to 30 cents and hour range.

From an economic point of view, what is happening is that the U.S. is "importing" low skill labor by the bucket-load. And even if it was good to stop it (which it isn't), we really can't. Protectionism doesn't work. It simply leads to smuggling and trade wars. Other countries refuse to buy our goods if we start passing laws against buying theirs.

The good news, however, is that the U.S. still has advantages in creating high value added jobs. We can never be cheaper than the Chinese. It's foolish to try. But we can be smarter. You've already proven it by being able to type on a computer, access a website - something most Chilean crop pickers are unable to do. I'm sure you have talents you haven't even begun to think of as salable - even though they are.

So my last bit of advice is this. Stop trying to underbid an illegal immigrant for a $9 an hour job. Aim higher. Much higher. Start a long term plan that will end in you landing something that pays $20 and hour or up. Thanks largely to social and educational programs put in place by Democrats, this is possible for nearly any American who puts their mind to it.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community
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spag68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #9
16. I think you have all wrong.First
the fruit picking will get done because the pay has to be min. wage< this is why they are fighting so hard to keep it from going to 7.15 like it will ,if the dems. get the house> So now you say ,but I'm only getting a little more then him, but you would get a raise too, as the Clinton's discovered in the 90s, lift the bottom everyone rises , besides they are here, can't send them back.Get them into workers unions, then after a while you and your friend Juan can drink a beer and tell funny stories.
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Arlington Donating Member (56 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-18-06 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #9
26. Tell you what...
... I grew up in a household where sometimes before school we resorted to digging in the couch for milk money. My parents worked crappy jobs, usually more than one job at a time. I also worked crappy jobs -- essentially from the time I was 12 until I got out of college. So I understand where you are coming from.

My old home is more than 90 percent white, but a huge chunk of the population there works for peanuts at non-unionized big-box stores, fast food joints and manufacturers. Even if those people understand that a $14 pair of jeans at Wal-Mart was manufactured through the exploitation of some exploited Asian laborer, they as buyers don't have the luxury of not buying the lowest priced jeans available.

But the only way to change any of this is to remove the incentive for exploitation. As long as laws permit "honest" employers to pay lousy wages, and governments ignore the crimes of unscrupulous employers, then the effects of immigration controls -- even better ones -- are going to be compromised. Those remedies come only through better employment laws and unionization

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Lib Grrrrl Donating Member (801 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-13-06 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Disastrous Policies
"Auntie", this whole issue is an excuse the Republicans are using to distract from their disastrous policies....

And this is NOT disastrous policy? Maybe not to you, if you are employed at a stable, good-paying job! Try looking at it from the perspective of the unemployed American. Maybe you'll see it differently. When it could negatively impact YOUR economic welfare.
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oneold1-4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-13-06 02:58 PM
Response to Original message
12. Asaferinstance
It is a guarantee, that if for instance, China had been on one of the US borders, there would have been a 50' high fence and guard posts every 20'! The INS concerns itself very strongly about Chinese who might be in the US illegally and deports them rather quickly! The ratio of illegal Chinese to Latinos is likely about 1 to 5000 and 99% of them work in restaurants owned by Chinese. The Chinese, here, seldom are found in drug trafficking or other criminal activities, other than a few people smuggling cases.
The US deported thousands of Chinese after using them for cheap labor. Will it do the same with the not native latinos once it realizes it no longer needs them?
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Platonium Donating Member (6 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-13-06 08:23 PM
Response to Original message
13. There's more to this than enforcement of rules
To stem the tide of illegal immigration we need to look beyond the symptoms. A 'successful' foreign policy that is based exclusively on selfish enrichment, regardless of what it does to the livelihoods of others is unsustainable in the long run. If we demand a certain level of wage and benefits for our own working population, we should demand the same from those that we do business with. Unless we do, we will continue to suck in the desperate immigrants that risk everything to survive, while driving down our own level of existence until it matches that of our trading partners.

Of course, under this administration 'enrichment' is reserved only for those that already have little to worry about. In that circle of power (which also owns the policy makers), the only right policy is a 'selfish' one. So don't expect any 'real' solution to these problems any time soon -:((

'a desillusioned 'legal' immigrant
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Lib Grrrrl Donating Member (801 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-13-06 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Smart Dude! And Welcome To DU!!
Edited on Thu Apr-13-06 09:45 PM by Lib Grrrrl
If we demand a certain level of wage and benefits for our own working population, we should demand the same from those that we do business with. Unless we do, we will continue to suck in the desperate immigrants that risk everything to survive, while driving down our own level of existence until it matches that of our trading partners.

See...THIS is exactly what I fear. The bold and underline is my root fear. What I have been trying to get across all along.
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Arlington Donating Member (56 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-13-06 10:01 PM
Response to Original message
15. I am shocked
.. and somewhat embarrassed. Because for some reason I thought A.P. would repeat the same stuff we hear from many Democrats in Congress who address the "issue" rather than the problem. But I should have known: A.P. is nothing if not a pragmatist.

Secondly -- while I long ago had come to the same conclusion as Auntie Pinko, I must admit that I read something in the Post yesterday or the day before that produced a revelation for me. It was a quote from some local Latino high school kid. He said that he'd been reading in school about some of the policies the U.S. has pursued in Central and South America, and that "this" (the huge influx of people from those regions into the U.S. economy) was a kind of poetic justice.

As former union man, and a descendent of immigrant coal miners who dodged batons swung by the Coal and Iron Police, I had always framed illegal immigration in terms of its role in destroying the progress made by labor groups. Now I am reminded of how much "we" have done to destroy the critical social and economic structures in the countries from which today's immigrants come. I can read "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man" a hundred times, but a high school kid cut to the core of the issue for me. It made me realize that "Si, Se Puede" is a slogan meant for all of us.
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hraka Donating Member (218 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-16-06 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. Here here!
I am mixed on the whole immigration legislation. Most of my family were legal immigrants. I say "most" and "legal" because I can trace one line back to the 1600's in America and I feel anyone who came over back then was a guest that overstayed his welcome. My mothers grandparents came over from Hungary in the 1890's and were processed through Ellis Island.
Now, that said, illegal immigration of itself should not be a felony. I understand why most people try to cross the border between Mexico and the US. It's because they can make more here in an hour than they can make in a day or a week in their home county. And don't think it's just Mexicans. A large number of these people are coming from El Salvador, Honduras, Venezuela, Columbia, and other Central and South American countries. A very small majority of these people are criminals. However, if this law passes, they will become just that. That will ruin any chance they have of ever getting here legally since felons cannot gain citizenship. (Correct me, please, if I am wrong about this detail.)
To the man who said illegal immigrants are taking his job, I disagree. Even my republican sister agrees that the reason they are getting the jobs is because they will take them. They are hard working, will work for little pay and benefits, and don't make a lot of demands. Rarely have I been unemployed, because I was willing to be a janitor at minimum wage to keep a roof over my head. Immigrants aren't taking the engineers and management and skilled labor jobs. They're taking the ones we feel are beneath our vast experience.
And finally, let us not forget Bernard Kerik. Can't remember him? He was a candidate for heading the Dept of Homeland Security, nominated by shrub himself, before he withdrew his acceptance because he had employed an illegal immigrant as a nanny (and not paid employer taxes on her). He was the New York City Police Commissioner!!! Remember basic economics, folks, supply and demand. Nothing sells if people don't buy it. So until affluent and greedy people - hypocrites, no less - stop hiring illegals, they will continue to cross the border.
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old_techie Donating Member (37 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-17-06 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. cheap labor threat to high skill jobs
Edited on Mon Apr-17-06 04:54 PM by old_techie
"Immigrants aren't taking the engineers and management and skilled labor jobs."

If you think this is true, the H-1B L1 visa is something designed by the cheap labor lobby to do exactly that. Replace the engineering and IT workforce! see www.Zazona.com
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-16-06 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
19. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
old_techie Donating Member (37 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-17-06 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. How about pull the plug on NAFTA?
It caused big damage on both sides of the border no doubt.
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stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-16-06 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
21. First we have to deal with those who are here...
...who need our compassion. They are here because it was intentionally made easy for them to get here so that they could be exploited. They need to be given green cards immediately. Then we need to simultaneously improve border security and increase the minimum wage to a living wage and then let a reasonable amount in each year. I'm open to what reasonable means.
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classysassy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-17-06 02:29 PM
Response to Original message
22. A solution long lost.
Oh my if only my ancestor had dealt with this problem in 1492.They could have posted signs No foreigners allowed.
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Spoonerian Donating Member (131 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-17-06 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. Yes, but your ancestors lacked the impudence,
and the arrogance, and the wickedness to try to track and surveil every human being on the continent and every penny every human being on the continent lays his hands on.

Bush sure has played this one good vis-a-vis the mainstream Democrats. All he and his fascists want is to get all those brown anarchists stamped with ids so that they can be properly assimilated into the welfare/warfare state. While the socialist Democrats get stuck siding with the right wing populists and bigots calling for further militarization in the War on Immigrants.

http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0410e.asp">In Defense of Open Borders

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