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Gene C. Gerard Donating Member (21 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-24-06 06:07 PM
Original message
“Iraq Can’t be Compared to Post-World War II”
In the past three years the Bush administration has vigorously made comparisons between reconstruction in Iraq and post-World War II Germany and Japan. Many of the administration’s analogies have been forced, at best. A variety of historians, political scientists, and even former government officials have suggested that the comparisons are rather tenuous. But a new report by the Congressional Research Service has essentially demolished the administration’s analogies.

Condoleeza Rice, as National Security Advisor, gave a speech to the American Legion convention in 2003 in which she made comparisons between Iraq and German reconstruction. She cautioned, “There is an understandable tendency to look back on America’s experience in postwar Germany and see only the successes, 1945 through 1947 was an especially challenging period. Germany was not immediately stable. SS officers engaged in sabotage and attacked both coalition forces and those locals cooperating with them – much like today’s Baathist.”

Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld went even farther at the convention. He told the audience, “Nazi regime remnants…plotted sabotage of factories, power plants, rail lines. They blew up police stations and government buildings. Does this sound familiar?” The only problem with these comparisons is that they’re false. The Congressional Research Service (CRS), which acts as the nonpartisan public policy research office of Congress, notes in a new report comparing the occupation of Iraq with that of Germany and Japan, “Iraq faces an insurgency that deliberately sabotages the economy and reconstruction efforts, whereas there were no resistance movements in either Germany or Japan.”

In fact, to say that there were no organized resistance movements in post-World War II Germany and Japan is an understatement. Former Ambassador James Dobbins, along with the RAND Corporation, authored a study entitled America’s Role in Nation-Building: From Germany to Iraq, which determined that there was not a single post-war American combat casualty in Germany or Japan.

In 2003 President Bush gave a speech in which he said, “Following World War II, we lifted up the defeated nations of Japan and Germany, and we stood with them as they built representative governments. We committed years and resources to this cause. America today accepts the challenge of helping Iraq in the same spirit.” In reality, there are significant differences between both Germany and Japan and Iraq. Prior to the emergence of militarism in the 1920s, Japan essentially functioned as a constitutional monarchy. And before Hitler rose to power in the 1930s, Germany had a democratic parliamentary government. Iraq, by comparison, has never had a democratic government.

Only a few months ago, Mr. Bush made another comparison when he stated, “After World War II, President Truman believed that the way to help bring peace to Asia was to plant the seeds of freedom and democracy in Japan. Like today, there were many skeptics. Fortunately, President Truman stuck to his guns. The spread of freedom to Iraq requires the same confidence and persistence, and it will lead to the same results.” But the CRS report demonstrates that we’ve already done much more for Iraq than we ever did for Germany or Japan. And it’s produced far less results to date.

According to the CRS report, U.S. aid allocations for Iraq over the last three years are $28.9 billion, all of which has been in the form of grants. Almost 62 percent of this went for economic and political reconstruction assistance. The remaining 38 percent was intended to strengthen Iraqi security. For post-World War II Germany, the U.S. provided $29.3 billion (in 2005 dollars) in assistance between 1946 and 1952, consisting of 60 percent in economic grants, 30 percent in economic loans, and 10 percent in military aid.

In Japan, post-war U.S. aid amounted to $15.2 billion (in 2005 dollars) during the same time frame, of which 77 percent was grants and 23 percent was loans. Almost a third of the aid was targeted at economic reconstruction. Comparatively, a greater proportion of Iraqi aid has been provided for economic reconstruction than was the case for Germany or Japan. Total U.S. grant assistance to Iraq over the last three years is approximately equivalent to total loan and grant assistance provided to Germany and almost double that provided to Japan, over a seven year period. And yet the administration has accomplished so little.

It’s clear that the Bush administration’s analogies between the flawed reconstruction efforts in Iraq and the occupation history of Germany and Japan are inaccurate, if not false. But it should come as no surprise that the Bush administration is attempting to re-write the history of the aftermath of World War II. This administration loves revisionist history. For much of the last three years, the administration has tried to re-write the history surrounding its decision to go to war.







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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-24-06 06:11 PM
Response to Original message
1. wow, welcome to DU
Edited on Mon Apr-24-06 06:12 PM by uppityperson
good writing. The Iraq invasion/occupation is not comparable to WWII in many ways. People are dying, but it is NOT the same.
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Faygo Kid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-24-06 06:11 PM
Response to Original message
2. Great to have you with us here at DU. Keep sending us this.
Pretty cool stuff, here. A cogent and thoughtful analysis. Keep it up.

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BurgherHoldtheLies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-24-06 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
3. First off: Welcome to DU!! Thanks for posting this info...
One line that really struck me: not a single post-war American combat casualty in Germany or Japan . How typical of this administration to rewrite history...after their fear-mongering, it's their #1 M.O.

:hi: Again, welcome to DU!
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agincourt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-24-06 06:15 PM
Response to Original message
4. More rock solid proof,
that this a regime that lies all the time. Made up history, to support false agendas.
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-24-06 06:25 PM
Response to Original message
5. Fantastic post!
Welcome to DU.
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-24-06 06:34 PM
Response to Original message
6. I was in Austria
1946/47 - when I was 3 years old. My father was stationed there for 2 years and my younger brother was born there. Neither my mother who is still alive nor my father ever made made any reference to any problems there whatsoever. It was a perfectly happy time for my family and the we stayed in touch with the owners of the house which was requesitioned for us , on and off, right through to the eighties. Any readers should bear in mind that the Austrians were regarded as being more fanatical than the Germans.

The only reference I have ever heard with regard to possible resistance was the effective prevention of it by the bombing of Dresden. That was the actual purpose of Dresden's almost complete destruction - to destroy the spririt of the German people.

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Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-24-06 06:58 PM
Response to Original message
7. Kick-ass welcome to DU!
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jasop Donating Member (172 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-24-06 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
8. Umm.. I am speechless.. that is amazing. Bravo! And Welcome! n/t
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bluerum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-24-06 07:15 PM
Response to Original message
9. damn - how could sleazy and rumbucket be so far off base with
Edited on Mon Apr-24-06 07:17 PM by bluerum
their comparisions? They must have been fed some bad intel about WWII. :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

Fire the rest of the damn CIA!!

BTW - welcome and thanks for the post.

on edit: BTW - welcome and thanks for the post.!
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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-24-06 07:18 PM
Response to Original message
10. I have been looking for an article like this. Thanks!
I had an argument with a friend about this subject about three weeks ago. Now I can send him this. Thanks
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onehandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-24-06 07:23 PM
Response to Original message
11. My dad was in the occupation army right after WWII.
Edited on Mon Apr-24-06 07:25 PM by onehandle
He and his Army companions were worshiped by the Germans. They never fired a shot, or encountered any resistance.

Rice and Rummy are full of shit.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-24-06 07:27 PM
Response to Original message
12. condo and her dad making shit up
Edited on Mon Apr-24-06 07:31 PM by madrchsod
i guess it`s easy to rewrite history when most of the people who fought to save our country have died. but we who are living will never forget the sacrifice that our fathers/mothers and grandfathers/mothers had to bear to have a country free enough so that assholes like these two can be called for what they are. i`ll leave it up to you to decide what best to call them.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-24-06 07:30 PM
Response to Original message
13. welcome to du
excellent posting..the only thing the german had were the "werewolfs" and they melted away as soon as they realize how hated they were by the german people
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-25-06 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #13
23. Not to mention that the Werewolves may have unseccessfully
attacked Americans a couple times, but mostly they concentrated on attacking 'collaborators' who cooperated with the Allies, and German girls who dated Allied soldiers. They were never a significant threat.
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Lisa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-25-06 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. there's an interesting book out on the "Werwolf" movement
... written by a prof at the university where I did my grad work (different department, though). It runs to more than 450 pages and has a ton of documentation. Although it was written a long time before Rice, Bush, and Co. appeared on the scene -- it does make the point that most of the German resistance evaporated even before VE Day. There's a rather sad account of some teenagers in the Hitler Youth who were being urged to put up a fight -- most of them panicked and ran away when the Allies began to move into the area, or decided that it really wasn't worth it and they just wanted the war to be over, so they turned themselves in. I am just imagining how the GIs felt, seeing a bunch of weeping, hungry kids, wearing the ragged remains of their Nazi-era uniforms. My ex's dad, who fought in the Battle of the Bulge but for all that was a real softie, would probably have given them food and promised to help find their parents!

The author pointed out that the vast majority of the incidents involved spray-painting threats on walls (which generally didn't amount to much), or meddling with things like vehicles or telephone lines, rather than ambushes and murders -- and by the end of 1945 (certainly by late 1946) things had calmed down and civil order had been restored. It didn't look anything like Iraq (or even Afghanistan) 3 years after, with stuff blowing up and people dying all over the place.

Werwolf!: The History of the National Socialist Guerrilla Movement, 1944-1946: Perry Biddiscombe, University of Toronto Press (1998)

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0802008623/sr=8-1/qid=1145999568/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-1850351-7126251?%5Fencoding=UTF8

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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-25-06 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Thanks. I'll keep this in mind.
I do like a good history.
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teknomanzer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-24-06 07:37 PM
Response to Original message
14. Nazi saboteurs my ass...
Great revisionism by Bushco... Seems to me that former Nazis fit into four groups...

1. Those the Allies left in their bureaucratic offices to establish and maintain order in postwar Germany.

2. Those who fled like rats through underground networks in order to escape prosecution for their crimes.

3. Those whose careers were stopped short at the end of a rope or interrupted by a long prison sentence.

4. Those which the American government and intelligence agencies whisked back home to further its own weapons development and nefarious intelligence activities.

Number 4 is what concerns me the most... I believe it to be a corrupting influence that has lead us to where we are today. Neocons are Nazis minus the antisemitism, Teutonic regalia, and love for Wagner. Neoconservatism is just another brand of National Socialism...
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flyingfysh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-24-06 08:18 PM
Response to Original message
15. actually, there was a small Nazi resistance movement in Germany
There was a program on the History Channel about it in the last couple of days. They killed Germans they regarded as collaborators, but were eventually caught. After one bombing they carried out, there was a spontaneous strike and demonstration by Germans opposing these "resistance" people.
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Hand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-24-06 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
16. That they could even draw this comparison shows how effing stupid they are
Item One: Japan is an Asian island nation with a longhistory and two dominant religions: Buddhism and Shinto.
Item Two: Germany is a European nation also with a long history (although often one of disunity and one dominant religion: Christianity.
Item Three: Iraq is a nation created in the early 20th century by departing colonial powers out of several different ehnic/tribal divisions. It has one dominant religion: Islam.

My point: THEY'RE DIFFERENT COUNTRIES, DICKBRAINS! JAPAN IS NOT GERMANY, GERMANY IS NOT JAPAN, AND IRAQ IS NOT GERMANY OR JAPAN OR FRIGGING SAN MARINO EITHER!

Item Four: Japan and Germany both formally surrendered and signed peace agreements that definitively ended the wars they had lost and set out the terms of occupation. Iraq... never surrendered because there was no government left that could surrender. This is a critical difference that any first-year history/poli sci major could recognize. When your established government says, "We surrender. Citizens, we lost, they won. Obey the occupiers," you're likely to do it. When there's no established government and no formal surrender... you hit the streets and loot everything you can lay hands on. Who's going to stop you?

I could go on, but my blood pressure's bad enough as it is.

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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-25-06 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #16
25. And the way around that would have been to have treated Saddam
as the head of state when he was arrested, and insisted on a formal, ceremonial surrender, which in part of the terms required him to step down. Then he, as a deposed head of state, would stand in the dock in The Hague, ala Milosevich.

But no, we had to treat him like a terrorist with no status and have him tried in an Iraqi court so we could control the release of information that would come out of the trial -- we couldn't have The Hague asking him questions about where he got the chemical precursors for the weapons he used in the Iran/Iraq war, or telling the World Court that he had, indeed, destroyed all his WMDs in the hope of staving off an invasion and the only reason he didn't give evidence of it was because he had also told his people to destroy all evidence so that no one could tie the WMDs to the CIA, as arranged with his CIA contacts who then screwed him.

(Whew -- now I'm winded).
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davhill Donating Member (854 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-24-06 08:53 PM
Response to Original message
17. I was there
In 1946 when I was four years old my Mother and two year-old baby brother and I, were sent to join my father in the occupation forces of post-war Germany. We traveled with many other dependent families. There was no shooting or bombing going on. I don't think the army would have sent us if there was. I don't see the army sending any dependent families to Iraq.
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Bob K Donating Member (41 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-24-06 09:23 PM
Response to Original message
18. I'd like to know ....
...how many families and wives are actively encouraging young men & women to join up so they can serve the noble cause in Iraq. :dunce:
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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-24-06 11:42 PM
Response to Original message
19. Excellent post!
Welcome to DU :hi:

The more I learn, the more I realize that this insanity posing as an Administration will be studied for years to come. It will be a study on how failure can feed failure and spiral out of control.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-25-06 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #19
26. Have you read Barbara Tuchman "March of Folly"?
It examines four or five colossal blunders in history, ending with the war in Vietnam.

This debacle could get a volume all its own.
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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-25-06 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Thanks for the heads up
I do think this maladministration will warrant at least one volume!
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Hand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-25-06 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. Yep, just a few weeks ago.
And the march goes on... this clusterfuck could well be looked back upon as the beginning of the end of the American empire.
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drm604 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-25-06 05:27 AM
Response to Original message
20. I was about to jump on you
for ripping off this article from here:

http://www.orbstandard.com/News/Gerard/Gerard_Iraq_Cant_Be_Compared_to_Post-WWII.html

but then I noticed your name and realized that you are the original author. Great article!
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Gene C. Gerard Donating Member (21 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-25-06 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #20
24. I'm glad you were ready to jump!
Thanks much for keeping an eye out for plagiarism. Yes, I write a weekly column that is published by various left-of-center websites, newspapers, and magazines.

Gene C. Gerard
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-25-06 06:32 AM
Response to Original message
21. Great post!
However the administration and their chorus of rightwing liars will continue to belch out this particular lie over and over again. They have no concern for the truth.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-25-06 08:46 AM
Response to Original message
22. Only idiots who don't know history fall for this analogy.

They are NOT comparable in so many ways...
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TheBaldyMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-26-06 08:13 AM
Response to Original message
31. A couple of points I'd like to make GCC,
Edited on Wed Apr-26-06 08:14 AM by TheBaldyMan
The WWII analogy was not used only after the fall of Hussein, he was compared to Hitler before the invasion started as part the propaganda campaign.

Your post quotes Bush:
Prior to the emergence of militarism in the 1920s, Japan essentially functioned as a constitutional monarchy. And before Hitler rose to power in the 1930s, Germany had a democratic parliamentary government. Iraq, by comparison, has never had a democratic government.
This is another lie from the President. Previously there has been a popular government in Iraq until western sponsored destabilisation and a coup put a series of dictators in place, culminating in CIA stooge Saddam Hussein.

Lastly, you didn't mention that even though more money had been spent in Iraq than either Germany or Japan at the time war-profiteering was a criminal offence and there would have been stricter controls on Halliburton, KRB et al as well as much harsher penalties. Even in the face of McArthur's climbdown and rapid reversal on the attempted dissolution of the zaibatsu culture in Japan, I suspect that more dollars were effectively spent even after the shady Japanese megacorporations had taken their cut.

Welcome to DU, sorry for nitpicking but I feel that there are certain issues your article raises that deserve more expansive treatment.

edited for typos.
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MikeNearMcChord Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-26-06 08:53 AM
Response to Original message
32. Great post! The one thing that the
Neo-cons forget, that both Germany and Japan had a history of parliamentary government before the war and the transition was much smoother, also much leeway was given to locals to run the government. Iraq on the other hand has never been a stable country, remember this nation was stitched together from the breakup of the Ottoman Empire by the Sykes-Picot treaty named for the French and British minsters for purposes of expanding their empirical gains.
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happydreams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-26-06 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
33. There are some similarities
however between Germany and Iraq in the pre-war era of both countries: the Bush family was involved in and profiting from financing and building up these countries.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-26-06 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
34. Don't Forget the Red Army.
People tend to forget that the Soviet Union had the Largest and most powerful Army in the World by 1945. US Air Power and Naval Power far exceeded the Soviet Air and Naval Power but unlike the German army of 1942-1945 the Soviet Army had full access to all the oil it needed (The German Army oil usage had been reduced by as much as 90% by 1942 and fell from that "height").

Furthermore in 1932 the Communists were about equal to the Nazis when it came to support in the last elections of the Wiemar Republic, this organization had been attacked by Hitler but a good part of it survived even in the Western Zone of Occupation. Thus from VE day onward, the German leadership had a great fear that if you resisted the US and its Western Allies, all you would get would be the Soviet Army. The Red Army occupying ALL OF GERMANY was NOT want the German leadership wanted nor did most of the people in Germany wanted. Thus no Resistance for every German knew what would be next (as to the Communists, Stalin was afraid of a US Attack, so he told the Communists in Western Europe NOT to commit acts of Terrorism, thus both the Right and left did no acts of Terrorism against the US Occupation).

As to Japan, People tend to forget one of the Reason we drop the A-bomb on the date we did was it was not quite 90 days from the end of fighting in Europe. Stalin had promised FDR that the Red Army would invade Manchuria within 90 days of the end of Fighting in Europe. We bombed Hiroshima one day, the next day the Soviets Cross the Border (Stalin had planed on that date for it takes a lot of planning to move units from Europe to Soviet Manchuria Border). The Day after the Soviet invasion of Manchuria we dropped the second bomb. A week later the Red Army was half-way through Manchuria leaving the Japanese Army still in Manchuria destroyed and nothing stopping the Red Army from Taking Port-Arthur on the Chinese Coast by September 1, 1945 and ALL of Korea by October 1, 1945.

This was further complicated by the fact that the ONLY opposition leader to survive the Assassinations of the 1930s was living in Moscow in 1945 and the Japanese leadership did not WANT him to become the new ruler of Japan (who also had a strong Communist party in this time period). Again Stalin did not want the provoke the US and told the Communists to behave themselves during the American Occupation, thus again both the Right and left had reasons NOT to fight the Americans.

In Iraq, the Communist party was destroyed in the 1960s by Batthest Party (it survives in some aspects but not a factor in this fight). The only regional opposition to US occupation of Iraq is Iran and Saudi Arabia. Both are NOT in a position to invade Iraq while the US occupy Iraq, but both really do not want the US in Iraq. Thus both Saudi Arabia and Iran are supporting parties in the insurgency, the Shiites by Iran and the Sunnis by Arabia (Via bin Laden who is the main opposition to the house of Saud in Arabia and a factor in this fight even while hiding in a cave in Afghanistan).

Thus while the left and right both had reasons NOT to fight the US Occupation of Japan and Germany in 1945, the opposite is true in Iraq. Neither the Shiites nor the Sunnis want us in the Country. Neither really fear a foreign invasion from Arabia or Iran (or even Turkey who dislikes the Kurds) and thus have no reason to support the US occupation. The main fear of the Sunnis, the Kurds and the Shiite is rule of one of the other two. That is what they are fighting about who is to rule Iraq AFTER THE US LEAVES. In Germany and Japan the US made an effort to put back in power the same people who supported Hitler and Tojo, but no one with direct ties (and a few anti-Nazis who were NOT communists). Thus, except for the top ranks of the Nazi party (and the Japanese Government), most Germans and Japanese were told they had been bad and not to go to war against, but then put back in power for to do more meant the Communists would take over.

I go into the above to show the difference, all three Countries have a long history of Opposing foreign rule, but two of them (Japan and Germany) had more to lose if they decided to fight the American Occupation. In the case of Iraq, the Iraqi people have nothing to lose to fight the US, and are doing so for they want to be ruled by themselves NOT some foreign Government.
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