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NYT op-ed, Tony Horwitz: Early American history is Spanish, not English

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DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-08-06 11:46 PM
Original message
NYT op-ed, Tony Horwitz: Early American history is Spanish, not English
Op-Ed Contributor
Immigration — and the Curse of the Black Legend
By TONY HORWITZ
Published: July 9, 2006


Karen Barbour

COURSING through the immigration debate is the unexamined faith that American history rests on English bedrock, or Plymouth Rock to be specific....This national amnesia isn't new, but it's glaring and supremely paradoxical at a moment when politicians warn of the threat posed to our culture and identity by an invasion of immigrants from across the Mexican border. If Americans hit the books, they'd find what Al Gore would call an inconvenient truth. The early history of what is now the United States was Spanish, not English, and our denial of this heritage is rooted in age-old stereotypes that still entangle today's immigration debate.

Forget for a moment the millions of Indians who occupied this continent for 13,000 or more years before anyone else arrived, and start the clock with Europeans' presence on present-day United States soil. The first confirmed landing wasn't by Vikings, who reached Canada in about 1000, or by Columbus, who reached the Bahamas in 1492. It was by a Spaniard, Juan Ponce de León, who landed in 1513 at a lush shore he christened La Florida....Within three decades of Ponce de León's landing, the Spanish became the first Europeans to reach the Appalachians, the Mississippi, the Grand Canyon and the Great Plains. Spanish ships sailed along the East Coast, penetrating to present-day Bangor, Me., and up the Pacific Coast as far as Oregon.

From 1528 to 1536, four castaways from a Spanish expedition, including a "black" Moor, journeyed all the way from Florida to the Gulf of California — 267 years before Lewis and Clark embarked on their much more renowned and far less arduous trek. In 1540, Francisco Vázquez de Coronado led 2,000 Spaniards and Mexican Indians across today's Arizona-Mexico border — right by the Minutemen's inaugural post — and traveled as far as central Kansas, close to the exact geographic center of what is now the continental United States. In all, Spaniards probed half of today's lower 48 states before the first English tried to colonize, at Roanoke Island, N.C.

The Spanish didn't just explore, they settled, creating the first permanent European settlement in the continental United States at St. Augustine, Fla., in 1565. Santa Fe, N.M., also predates Plymouth: later came Spanish settlements in San Antonio, Tucson, San Diego and San Francisco....

From 1819 to 1848, the United States and its army increased the nation's area by roughly a third at Spanish and Mexican expense, including three of today's four most populous states: California, Texas and Florida...."The Hispanic world did not come to the United States," Carlos Fuentes observes. "The United States came to the Hispanic world. It is perhaps an act of poetic justice that now the Hispanic world should return."...

(Tony Horwitz, the author of "Confederates in the Attic" and "Blue Latitudes," is writing a book on the early exploration of North America.)

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/09/opinion/09horwitz.html?hp=&pagewanted=all
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-08-06 11:50 PM
Response to Original message
1. K&R
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #1
8. Contacts between America and europe existed for Centuries before Columbus
The problem is discovering how far back? In the days of Sail it took about a week to go from the East Coast of what is now the US to get to Europe, but Six weeks the other direction. This was the chief limitation on contact.

During the middle Ages "St Brendan's Land" was often marked on European maps showing something was here. Exactly what was unknown but legend of St Brendan's land was while known (even the Viking report finding Irish Monks on some of their Explorations of what is now North America). This is the easiest reliable reports of people reaching America.

Then came the Vikings, who disappeared from North America during Black Death but quickly replaced by various Fishing boats from various fishing communities of Western Europe during the Centuries between the Vikings and Columbus. Officially the fisherman never set foot on land, but I just do NOT see them doing that given the location of the Great banks (Which is where they were fishing) and North American. Furthermore in 1497 John Cabot sailed from England to New Found-land and claimed it for England (and Spanish maps of the early 1500s calls that Area the "English Seas" (England and Spain had been Allies against the French for almost 200 years at that point of History, but not so friendly as for England to abandoned its Fishing Fleets to the mercies of the Spanish).

For more on St Brendan's land:
http://www.irishcultureandcustoms.com/ASaints/BrendanNav.html
http://www.castletown.com/brendan.htm
http://www.seiyaku.com/customs/crosses/brendan.html

Now they are some records of even earlier European contact with North America but these are considered NOT trustworthy by most Historians (i.e. do NOT match up with travel times or geography that is known, even S Brendan's story has problems with it, to many "40 days" sailing durations but it does match up nicely with a trip from Ireland to Iceland to Greenland to New Found-land and we have the Vikings stories of finding Irish Priest everywhere they traveled).

Now some confirmation of earlier travelers can be the product of contamination. The classic case is London mud. During the Roman ear of London, a Bridge existed where London Bridge is today. People would lose coins over the side of said bridge for it was a major port area. During the Colonial era this same area was again a port for London. In this period large barrels of Mud was drawn from the Thames to be used as ballast on the trip right is now the US East Coast. These ships would work they way up various Us East Coast rivers selling their London Products, finally getting to the "Fall Line (a line where ships could no longer travel up stream) sell they remaining products, buy tobacco or later Cotton and dump the Mud into the river. The goods from England were light in weight compare to the Tobacco going from the East Coast to London, thus in London the ships needed to ass weight, in America as they traveled up stream they had to lose weight. Thus the barrels of Mud were dumped.

The significance of this London mud was it sometimes contained Roman Coins from the Roman era. As the mud was loaded onto the ships no one looked at what was in the mud, all the Captain wanted was WEIGHT, thus the mud with the coins traveled to America and dumped in Various American Rivers of the American South. Occasional these are found and presented as "Proof" the the Romans's were in North America, when it fact all they are are indications of contamination of one Archaeological site (The US) with the archeology evidence form anther (London in this example). No evidence of Roman visitation to North America has ever surfaced (Other then what is better explained as contamination) nor do we have any ROMAN records of Explorations (The Romans were notorious for NOT exploring, Nero might send two Centurions to find out the source of the Nile, but none to find out the coastline of Norway and Sweden or even Britain). The earlier Greeks (and later Dark age Christians) did more explorations than did the Romans. Basically if the Romans could NOT make money on something they care less about it, thus it is unlikely any Romans came to North America (The Romans till late during the Empire seems not even to be interested in Ireland or even Scotland, they knew of both but that is all).

Similar Stories are Said about the Greek, the Phoenicians, Ancient Egyptians (and even Chinese, through that is more directed to the West Coast of the US and apparently only AFTER Columbus, but within 100 years of Columbus Discovery of America). None of these stories do appear to have any support.

Some historians support these stories early "finders" of North America, they rely on guess work to fill in weaknesses in this line of sorties. For example I read a paper where one historian says he could not find enough Copper in the Mediterranean to supply all the Copper and Bronze used in the late Bronze age. He could NOT determine where all the Copper from the Copper Mines of Michigan mined roughly during the same time period went to. This period is also the period where huge boulders were put up at various places in the North Atlantic, these boulders were used as navigation guides till this very day. Viking report using them as navigation aides but claim they did NOT know who put them up, no one knows who put them up. This period (about 1000BC) is also a period of hugh canoe building by fishermen off the East Coast (through NO findings of any Canoes with copper, as opposed to Copper items, in the canoes from the same time period) . One can connect the dots and see a huge trade in Copper from Michigan to Greece that was disrupted by the switch over to the Iron Age (and never renewed) but whatever happened in lost to history and even the historian who tried to connect the above facts point out they is NOT enough facts to call his idea any thing more then speculation. His observation of lack of Copper in the Mediterranean may just be his failure to consider how extensive the mining of Copper of Cyprus and England had been during that time period (and destroyed by subsequent Copper Mining during the Iron age). His observation of not enough Copper items form the Copper mines of Michigan may just be that the copper was buried in Graves we have NOT found (Indians in the Historian period tended NOT to bury their dead, that was NOT always the case).

Ancient Copper mining in North America:
http://www.ramtops.co.uk/copper.html
http://www.unr.edu/sb204/geology/coptext.html

As to the Native Americans, even after Cortez they were the majority of people in Mexico (and remain so to this day). Small pox killed a lot of Indians off (as Small pox also killed off a lot of Whites), in North America the Native Population never made the needed adjustments to be able to fight off the Europeans (and those that did apparently joined the "White" society during the 1600s and 1700s, we have huge number of stories of Indians living among the whites during the Colonial Period, they became the poor of Colonial Society and slowly "disappeared" as the Indians were driven westward across the Mississippi. A lot of Americans whose families were here before the Revolution have a lot of native blood in them, most never admitted do to the hatred of Indians caused by the Conflict between whites and Indians).

My point here is that the Spanish hold on early American History was weak, it was like a light spring wind, felt but then forgotten (Like all of the previous European contact with North America). It is only with the White settlement of North American that the biggest influence on this Continent shifted from the Native Americans to white Society And even that was weak, for a good bit of our farming techniques, especially north of the Mason-Dixon line, is a combination of German and Indian farming techniques. Thus it would be better to say that the Growing Mexican population in the US is more a product of Native Americans increasing their influence then of Spanish Americans.
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. Smallpox is fairly good evidence that contact with
Europe was scant, nearly non-existent. The Vikings were isolated in one small part of the continent, and had only a small camp.

More extensive contact would have passed the smallpox virus along to the natives, and over the course of the next 400 years the population would have increased. Then, when the Spanish arrived, followed by the English, the large scale plague that resulted wouldn't have been inevitable, and not nearly as bad. And history would be different.

(When reading this article I couldn't help but think that Spanish history itself, to this writer, must be either actually Phoenician or Greek.)
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. Then what lead to the decline of Population BEFORE 1492?
Most of the cities of Mississippi Valley were quite large around 1200-1300 AD then then started a Repaid Decline. The traditional reason for this is that the Cities had reach the limited capability of their primitive Agricultural systems (Much like the earlier Mayan Civilization in Central America had Collapsed Centuries before). A second Theory is the coming of the Mini-ice Age reduced Agricultural Production (Through the effect of the Mini-ice age on North America itself was minimal compared to Europe which is more dependent ont he Gulf Stream to maintain high enough temperature for Agriculture but the Mini-Ice age may be tied in with the Drought that cause the Cliff-Dwellers of the American West to abandoned their homes in the 1300s).

These are the two most popular theory, but it might have been the Black Death brought to North America do to trade with Greenland and/or "Vineland" (The Greenland Settlements survived till almost 1400 before either dieing out or being abandoned do to the decrease in temperatures do to the Mini-Ice Age). Thus it is possible (Through highly unlikely) that the Black Death did NOT stop at the atlantic but spread to North America before dieing out (Like it died out in Europe after the Black, to come back again in the mid 1600s and early 1900s when it finally became endemic in rodents of California and the South west).

Now the Natchez kept up the Mound tradition till they were destroyed as a nation by the French in 1730, but most mound building was in the pre-contact time period and most pre-1400. Thus what did cause the Mound Builders to become more warlike after 1400? while the populations of their cities declined.

http://www.rootsandroutes.net/body.htm?http&&&www.rootsandroutes.net/moundsmap.htm

On the Cahokia Mounds:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cahokia

For more on the Mound builders:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississippian_culture
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 12:01 AM
Response to Original message
2. I visited the Pueblos at Taos, New Mexico last year
They document a history beginning 1400 years ago. Yes, the Southwest was settled and belonged to the Hispanics.
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silverojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 12:29 AM
Response to Original message
3. So what?
The borders, the history, and yes, the language have changed since then.

If you're going to go by that, there was a time when the people of Ireland all spoke Irish. But that isn't going to make English go away anytime soon, today....
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. You need to visit the pueblos
They had a culture set up way before the English came over. And they didn't speak Irish.
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #4
13. They had a culture set up before the Spanish claimed the
area, and before the area was annexed--without the population's permission--to the territory later bequeathed to Mexico.

"Hispanics", indeed. Spanish-speakers were merely the first European invaders, and all arguments that they therefore have a greater claim to the area is based not on inhabitation, or status as a majority of the population, but on imperialist conquests and territorial aggrandizement.

But if saying that's a good thing is necessary to make the argument against an even greater enemy, I guess that's ok. :eyes:
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. so what? so the whole BS about "english only" is just that =BS. it never
ceases to amaze me how ignorant so many are about the actual history of this land. the point is, the english weren't here first, or even second. they are merely the winners of a bloody series of wars, and consequently got to write the history.

sounds like you approve of those idiot "minutemen" on the border, do you?
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. I believe in open borders
Labor needs to unite and fight for rights regardless of country origin. We now have a global economy, let's have global workers rights.

By the way, in a few hundred years, it will be noted in history books that the Spanish originally came here and created a new race by mixing with the Indians. Then the English introduced the Blacks and slavery into this country to build the South to profit the "whites".
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. Well "open boarders" will destroy the labor movement, not help it
in today's world with international buisnesses that will go wherever the cheap labor and the lowest environmental regulations are.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 03:33 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. "Write the history."
The documents on which the United States of America is founded are in English. I must be foolish, thinking it's a good idea if the citizens of the United States are able to read them.

Nothing like a nation in which the people are unable to speak to each other, and language is conveniently used to segregate populations creating an underclass never able to compete for jobs in a market that speaks an entirely different language.

So far as I can see, language generosity is how "progressives" conceal their own unacknowledged bigotry. 'Let the poor brown dears speak their Spanish. They aren't as equipped, or motivated, or smart as other immigrants to learn a new language. Besides, it's fine for their own neighborhoods. And if they can't speak English, they'll have to stay in their own neighborhoods, won't they?'

Pretending only the Republicans are bigots doesn't wash with me, not as long as our people want to be 'kind' to the poor foreign language speaking immigrants who shouldn't be stressed or tormented by education in too-difficult English.

Segregation masked as inclusion is crap.


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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. what a load of codswallop--spewing reichwing talking points as if
it is progressives, liberals, etc, spewing this garbage. please cite ANY CREDIBLE sources for the quote you used in the second paragraph. unlike the reichwing, most progressives and others think the country can manage just fine without establishing an official, legal "national language".

funny how europe manages just fine, with people speaking different languages. most of the people I know over there can actually speak several, as it is considered the mark of an educated person.

in this country, it amuses me that so many of the people who insist on english as a national language actually demonstrate that they can neither speak nor spell it.

I hereby decree that anybody who demands english as a national language be required to demonstrate extreme proficiency in said language, a skill that I notice is lacking in many so-called native-born speakers (NOT referring to the First Nations here), including the chimperor himself. (anybody have those pics handy--"get a brain", "respect are language" and "no amnety"???


<<<<<Nothing like a nation in which the people are unable to speak to each other, and language is conveniently used to segregate populations creating an underclass never able to compete for jobs in a market that speaks an entirely different language.

So far as I can see, language generosity is how "progressives" conceal their own unacknowledged bigotry. 'Let the poor brown dears speak their Spanish. They aren't as equipped, or motivated, or smart as other immigrants to learn a new language. Besides, it's fine for their own neighborhoods. And if they can't speak English, they'll have to stay in their own neighborhoods, won't they?'>>>>
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alittlelark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. The people of Ireland spoke Gaelic, not 'Irish'....
The revisionist history of the US is what is really in question.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 07:38 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. The Irish government themselves call it 'Irish'
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formercia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
15. assuming that New Mexico, Texas, Colorado, Arizona,
Edited on Sun Jul-09-06 01:16 PM by formercia
California were originally part of the United States.


Oh, yeah, Florida too.

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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. But none of those areas were truly Spanish in 1775 either.
Edited on Sun Jul-09-06 11:41 PM by happyslug
California had been ignored by the Spanish since the time of Cortez till the Russians started to move south from Alaska in the mid 1700s (Causing the Spanish to set up missions in California starting in 1775).

New Mexico had been Conquered by the Spanish in the 1500s, but then the Navaho's overthrew the Spanish and became independent (again) soon afterward. Spain continued to hold fortifications in Arizona and New Mexico (and into Colorado) but their hold was weak, and what hold existed ended with Mexican Independence in 1821 (and the Mexican made no efforts to hold onto New Mexico and Arizona so that starting in the 1820 the trade routes for the South West shifted from Mexico City to St Louis, giving the US effective Economic control over the South West by 1830, the subsequent Mexican War just confirmed what was already the Economic Situation in 1846).

As to Texas, Spain did not Colonize it till the French establish New Orleans in 1715. Fearing French Control they establish their First Capital of Texas in right is now Louisiana (Subsequently shifted the Capital to San Antonio as their Alliance with France during the 1700s ebbed and flowed). The US believed East Texas had been part of the Louisiana Purchase (Something Spain disagreed with and settled by Treaty in 1821 with Spain, accepted by Mexico and the US after Mexican Independence). East Texas was more like the rest of the American South as opposed to Mexico so Mexico permitted Americans to settle in Texas and be permitted to use their own laws as long as their swore allegiance to Mexico (and become Catholic). It was the refusal of Santa Anna to accept these previously granted rights that caused him to want to crush the Texans (This was added by Presidents Jackson desire to annex Texas, for East Texas was to close to New Orleans for the US to tolerate any foreign country to control).

Thus in 1775, the area that the Spanish had the most control over (Texas) had become the least Spanish by 1830. While Arizona and New Mexico were still technically Mexican, they main trade routes by 1830 was with the US NOT Mexico. As to California, the Spanish had a weak control, and facing the Russians coming from Alaska (In fact the Gold Fields of California was in the Russian Controlled parts of California not the Spanish Controlled, Sutter of Sutter Mills fame, had actually bought his mill from the Russians).

I am not saying the Spanish control of the area from Texas to California did not exist, but it was weak at best once you look at the facts of the case. Most Mexicans who moved into the Southwest moved in AFTER 1848 when immigration from Mexico was permitted just like immigration from the the rest of the world was permitted.

One last comment, the Rio Grande Valley may be an exception to the above. It appears to be settled by Mexicans by 1775 and afterward. With Mexican Independence they acknowledged allegiance to Mexico until 1836 when they declared they independence from both Mexico and Texas. After San Jacito, Sam Houston send his rangers to the Valley to destroy the Rio Grande Republic (Sam Houston wanted the Rio Grande as a trip wire to any Mexican invasion and thus wanted the southern Border to Texas to be on the Rio Grande). This appears to be the only area (outside of the major cities of the Southwest such as Albuquerque, San Antonio etc) that had a significant Spanish speaking population in 1848.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 11:07 PM
Response to Original message
17. well around here it`s the french
1541 then again in the early 1600`s. there`s more french historical sites here in northern illinois than any other.the vikings were the first europeans but due to many factors faded away before the next invasion.
but more to the point--what point does this argument make? who gives a shit what european country was here first? that was a long time ago and has 0 relevence today.
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