Male Scientist Writes of Life as Female Scientist--WaPo

[Demeter]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/12/AR2006071201883.html?referrer=email

Male Scientist Writes of Life as Female Scientist
Biologist Who Underwent Sex Change Describes Biases Against Women

By Shankar Vedantam
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, July 13, 2006; A10



Neurobiologist Ben Barres has a unique perspective on former Harvard president Lawrence Summers's assertion that innate differences between the sexes might explain why many fewer women than men reach the highest echelons of science.

That's because Barres used to be a woman himself.

...

After he underwent a sex change nine years ago at the age of 42, Barres recalled, another scientist who was unaware of it was heard to say, "Ben Barres gave a great seminar today, but then his work is much better than his sister's."

And as a female undergraduate at MIT, Barres once solved a difficult math problem that stumped many male classmates, only to be told by a professor: "Your boyfriend must have solved it for you."

"By far," Barres wrote, "the main difference I have noticed is that people who don't know I am transgendered treat me with much more respect" than when he was a woman. "I can even complete a whole sentence without being interrupted by a man."

STILL DOESN'T MAKE THE OPERATION WORTH IT TO ME!

[Warren Stupidity]

1. I suggest that you not have 'the operation' then.

Interestng article until your gratuitous snark at the end. By the way the point was about systemic sexism not the merits of sexual reassignment surgery.

[Demeter]

2. Since You Have Your Nose Out of Joint

you may stomp on me all you want (I am after all, just a woman, with a personal knowledge of both subjects which have damaged and destroyed three generations...but go ahead, put your two cents in).

[Demit]

7. The fact that you didn't explain what your personal experience had to do

with the topic does make your single comment look gratuitous. How are we supposed to know why it relates if you don't tell us?

[Demeter]

10. Gratutious?

Given or granted without return or recompense; unearned.
Given or received without cost or obligation; free.
Unnecessary or unwarranted; unjustified: gratuitous criticism.


So much for a simple statement: is it reasonable to undergo a life-threatening operation to eliminate discrimination?

[trotsky]

13. Hold on a sec...

Who said that Barres underwent the operation just "to eliminate discrimination"?

Don't you think he may have had other reasons? Like knowing he was not comfortable being a woman?

[Demeter]

14. I Was Referring to the Great Mass of Women Who Don't

but suffer nonetheless from Lawrence Summer Syndrome

[trotsky]

17. That doesn't make any sense.

You said: "STILL DOESN'T MAKE THE OPERATION WORTH IT TO ME!"

We're not talking about you, or any other woman, having the operation. This is a story about a woman who (I'm reasonably guessing) was not happy with her gender, who instead chose to be male, and now has an important lesson for us to learn about sexism in the sciences. I don't understand your comment.

[Demeter]

18. I Don't Understand What You Don't Understand

I am talking about me, and the millions of women like me, who put up with the clueless, arrogant men around them, who would rather reform the culture than deform their minds and bodies. Get with the program, man!

[trotsky]

20. So you apparently don't think that anyone could truly not be happy...

with their gender, from a personal and psychological standpoint. You assume that women who want to become men are doing it only because they have been "corrupted" by culture into thinking that they need to be a man to be important or follow their dreams.

How dare you presume to know what others think and want?

Somebody indeed needs to "get with the program," but I don't think it's me.

[shrike]

21. Trotsky's right

No one undergoes that much pain (there's always pain recovering from surgery), trouble, heart-ache because they want to get a better deal in life!

I read this gentleman's story yesterday and found it interesting because he could talk from "both sides of the fence," so to speak. Aren't too many people in this world who can do that, so I think his opinion and experiences are valuable.

Gender dysphoria is an acknowledged psychiatric condition, and I can only imagine the years of torture experienced by an individual who KNOWS they are in the wrong body.

[Demeter]

22. And He Was Talking About DISCRIMINATION, NOT GENDER ASSIGNMENT

Get a clue. And so am I.

[shrike]

31. Er . . .

What's your problem?

Sorry you're so hostile, but I guess that's not my problem, either.

[benevolent dictator]

54. He was talking about discrimination FROM A UNIQUE POINT OF VIEW

He was talking about the discrimination he sees and how it has changed since he's become a man. That's a lot different from 'deciding to become a man to avoid discrimination.' That's absolutely ridiculous.

[readmoreoften]

28. "Deform their mind and bodies?"

Transsexual men don't transition to gain the social benefits of men. Transsexual men go through a lifetime of discrimination a levels that would stun a non-trans person. It's like saying MtFs want to transition into women so they can get free drinks on ladies' night.

Thanks for pointing out the article, but I can do without the discriminatory remarks.

[Demit]

16. Ah, but you didn't posit that in your original post.

If you had, my response to your OP would have been the same as another poster's: where in the article does it say that was the scientist's motive?

You're putting so much effort into arguing with everyone. If you had expounded a little more in your original post, put the effort in there, you wouldn't have had people scratching their heads at where your animus is coming from. Yes, you would have "justified" the comment.

[Demeter]

19. As I Posted This In LBN

I wasn't about to "expound" upon it. I am annoyed that any expounding seems to be called for. It's a simple English statement of my POV concerning the larger issues addressed in the body of the article. Discrimination is a daily grind, and I am tired of it, but while the subject of this new report may have found a solution, it is not one acceptable to most women. Is that finally clear enough?

[benevolent dictator]

56. I didn't see anywhere in the article

where it said either that he became a man to escape discrimination or where it was encouraging other women to do so.

Are you aware that most transgender people live under the poverty line? Most transgender people live a lifetime of harassment and discrimination?

I have a friend who had to quit a high paying job when he started transitioning, because his coworkers would do things like lock him in air tight rooms. He now works two jobs at a convenience store and a bar to make the rent, and once every month or two some frat boy will decide he looks like a "queer boy" and beat the shit out of him.

Yeah, sounds like a great way to free yourself from discrimination. :sarcasm:

[Kire]

26. You know somebody's mad...

...when they pull out the dictionary.

[bloom]

24. Seems to me it's pretty obvious

that there is a connection between someone realizing how sexist our culture is and them having had the operation. That women without such an operation - will continue to be discriminated against - overlooked - etc.

I think the comment was perfectly reasonable and fitting for the article.

It's your snarkiness that detracts from the topic. AFAIC. It's like you didn't get the article at all.

[benevolent dictator]

57. I think the comment was pretty transphobic

it completely negated the reasons transpeople transition. It's not to avoid discrimination, look up the stats on trans people.

I also saw nowhere in the article where it was said that he became a man to avoid discrimination, nor did I see anywhere that it was suggesting others do. The comment was transphobic and detracts from the real point of the article, which was to illustrate how much sexism does exist, and the differences in treatment that men and women receive.

[Bhaisahab]

3. nice article. but you may wanna put this in GD, not LBN

Peace

[Demeter]

4. Because Discrimination Isn't News, You Mean?

Doesn't effect every person on earth on a daily basis? Is still denied by the majority?

Of course. Not at all pertinent.

[Warren Stupidity]

6. Perhaps because of your snark at the end?

I'm just saying that it diverts entirely away from the point of the article. You might want to just edit it out.

[skids]

8. Please no.

I like LBN editorial commentary, as long as it is (very) short and clearly delimited. If I wanted to just read news articles without that, I'd just sign up for a social networking RSS feed or something.

Live a little. It's good for the soul.

[Kire]

27. It's news

but its not "Latest Breaking"

[Olney Blue]

5. Thanks for posting this Demeter. I might have missed it and the

article is important.

[Moderator]

9. fyi

this is a feature article ( other article ) and not breaking news

[IndianaGreen]

11. "his work is much better than his sister's."

Boy, don't we know that to be true! I work in an office that would not be considered sexist by today's standards, yet the men consistently ignore or appear to not listen to what the women have to say, unless another man happens to endorse the suggestion. The new sexism appears to be one in which the men smile and appear to listen politely, but I know they are not hearing a damned word that the women are saying. Then they act surprised when things don't go well, just as the women predicted.

Even in this case of a transgender man, did you notice that the only reason his views are on the WaPo is because he is now a man! If a woman, biological or transgender, had said the same thing she would have been ignored!

[Demeter]

15. And That's Why It Got Bumped Off LBN Too, I Betcha!

[nashville_brook]

25. "In The Company Of Men" -- don't watch it alone!

great movie -- i guess. really woke me up, altho it took a long time for the messages to get past my denial mechanism.

[readmoreoften]

29. I don't think that's really the case.

"Even in this case of a transgender man, did you notice that the only reason his views are on the WaPo is because he is now a man! If a woman, biological or transgender, had said the same thing she would have been ignored!"

If a transwoman delineated this experience, it would be related as well. If for no other reason than the transphobic MSM tends to think of transwomen as "still men"

[bobbieinok]

33. in the 80s there was a woman on the city council...a man had to repeat

what she said before anyone listened/discussed her ideas. She was irritated and yet found it sort of funny. She also was angry that the men, especially one man (whom she and everyone really liked) talked over her.

That's something I started noticing in the 70s while I was in groups of both men and women. The men talked louder (deeper voices also) and just continued talking when women tried to say anything. After a while, in every group, the women either stopped talking or started talking 'just among themselves.' These were usually acdemic groups; even in the couples groups, the wives often had MA/MS or PhD degrees. It didn't make any difference; in groups of both men and women, only the men ended up being heard.

[megatherium]

12. Bias against women in the sciences is pervasive even today. It is often

believed by people at the highest levels of academic attainment that women are not as talented as men. This is seldom spoken aloud (the Summers case being a notorious recent counterexample). But a couple of years ago I read an elaborate statistical discussion that explained that mathematical talent in women has about the same mean as mathematical talent in men, but a smaller variation. This is supposed to imply that there are much fewer women at high levels of mathematical ability (e.g. math professor at the Ivy League) then men. Nonplussed, I read more: it turns out this statistical chicanery was based on a large study of mathematical ability in high school students--done in 1960. You cannot tell me that in 1960 such a study could be performed free of pervasive cultural influences; hell, it couldn't be done today without pervasive cultural influences. (This was on Jerry Pournelle's blog, which I no longer read.)

[bloom]

23. "STILL DOESN'T MAKE THE OPERATION WORTH IT TO ME!"

And the thing is that it shouldn't be necessary. I have no problem with your comment.

I don't know what's the problem with the people who do. Seems like their comments relate to the article - as if they don't get it - another way of trying to brush off women's opinions. As if they have to defend men by saying you should shut up about it. Pretty annoying, IMO.

[readmoreoften]

30. I'm a woman and I find digs against transpeople offensive.

How do you know that people that were angered over the comments were male? Am I supposed to listen to digs against transsexuals just because they are "a woman's opinion"?

I'm confused here.

[bloom]

32. if we were to look...

Warren Stupidity claims to be male.

DemItAllAnyway claims to be female.

trotsky claims to be male.

shrike doesn't say.

Since there isn't a transsexual option - we don't know about that - it's just how people self-identify anyway.

---------------------

You see the remark as a dig against transsexuals - I see it as a comment that women should not have to have surgery to be considered equal.

I would expect women to get that concept - the point of the remark. I happen to agree with the point.

Not everyone will see it the same way - obviously.

I don't think that there is that much to be confused about.

[readmoreoften]

34. Then who has "deformed their bodies and minds" if it's not a dig.

the millions of women like me, who put up with the clueless, arrogant men around them, who would rather reform the culture than deform their minds and bodies

If you think this isn't a dig, then you probably haven't spent much time around people who rail against transsexual people-- and those people include non-trans women and feminists (I separate the two, because not all feminists are women and vice versa).

[Demeter]

35. Every Woman Who Tries To Compete In This Society DOES Deform Her Mind and

body. Consider diets and fashion, as the most basic, then curbing one's speech in mixed company, freedom to move about unharmed by any passing psycho in public and private places, the glass ceiling and the glorification of sport, sex, and addictions, legal or no.

Consider housework. Consider divorce law. Consider the attacks on autonomy from reproductive and other health decisions to lifestyle.

The Muslims are much more open and honest about their purdah for women as a class. Their women are much more accepting of it, in some places, but not all.

If you don't think women are deforming themselves on a daily basis, go watch that Mel Gibson movie in which, through an accidental head injury, he hears what women are really thinking.

[readmoreoften]

38. It's still a funny choice of words to use when referring to an article

about transpeople. So I don't believe that's what you initially meant.

I don't think that women "deform" their bodies. Fashion and dieting isn't "deforming" our bodies. It's reworking ourselves to fit an oppressive beauty standard. However, people do talk about "deforming" the female body through transsexual surgeries quite often. That's the more common context when transpeople are invoked. "They're deformed now! They're mutiliating themselves!"

Of course, I think that women endure and internalize abuse. That's not even up for debate. I'm a woman, how could I not know this? I also know that women abuse one another and that women are also capable of homo and transphobia and racism and all sorts of things. I don't quite grasp how you think that I don't understand the abuse against women simply because I'm calling out discriminatory remarks against transfolk.

But, whatever, it could just be a bad choice of words. Fine. I agree on the main issue and I'm glad that you posted the article.

[undergroundpanther]

39. Reminds me of this poem..

What Are Big Girls Made Of?

The construction of a woman:
a woman is not made of flesh
of bone and sinew
belly and breasts, elbows and liver and toe.
She is manufactured like a sports sedan.
She is retooled, refitted and redesigned
every decade.
Cecile had been seduction itself in college.
She wriggled through bars like a satin eel,
her hips and ass promising, her mouth pursed
in the dark red lipstick of desire.

She visited in '68 still wearing skirts
tight to the knees, dark red lipstick,
while I danced through Manhattan in mini skirt,
lipstick pale as apricot milk,
hair loose as a horse's mane. Oh dear,
I thought in my superiority of the moment,
whatever has happened to poor Cecile?
She was out of fashion, out of the game,
disqualified, disdained, dis-
membered from the club of desire.

Look at pictures in French fashion
magazines of the 18th century:
century of the ultimate lady
fantasy wrought of silk and corseting.
Paniers bring her hips out three feet
each way, while the waist is pinched
and the belly flattened under wood.
The breasts are stuffed up and out
offered like apples in a bowl.
The tiny foot is encased in a slipper
never meant for walking.
On top is a grandiose headache:
hair like a museum piece, daily
ornamented with ribbons, vases,
grottoes, mountains, frigates in full
sail, balloons, baboons, the fancy
of a hairdresser turned loose.
The hats were rococo wedding cakes
that would dim the Las Vegas strip.
Here is a woman forced into shape
rigid exoskeleton torturing flesh:
a woman made of pain.

How superior we are now: see the modern woman
thin as a blade of scissors.
She runs on a treadmill every morning,
fits herself into machines of weights
and pulleys to heave and grunt,
an image in her mind she can never
approximate, a body of rosy
glass that never wrinkles,
never grows, never fades. She
sits at the table closing her eyes to food
hungry, always hungry:
a woman made of pain.

A cat or dog approaches another,
they sniff noses. They sniff asses.
They bristle or lick. They fall
in love as often as we do,
as passionately. But they fall
in love or lust with furry flesh,
not hoop skirts or push up bras
rib removal or liposuction.
It is not for male or female dogs
that poodles are clipped
to topiary hedges.

If only we could like each other raw.
If only we could love ourselves
like healthy babies burbling in our arms.
If only we were not programmed and reprogrammed
to need what is sold us.
Why should we want to live inside ads?
Why should we want to scourge our softness
to straight lines like a Mondrian painting?
Why should we punish each other with scorn
as if to have a large ass
were worse than being greedy or mean?

When will women not be compelled
to view their bodies as science projects,
gardens to be weeded,
dogs to be trained?
When will a woman cease
to be made of pain?

[Demeter]

40. Wow! What A Poem! Who Wrote It?

[undergroundpanther]

42. Marge Piercy

Forgot to put her name up dammit.

[eridani]

49. URL for poet's home page

http://www.margepiercy.com/

You really should credit the author--let folks who like the poem have access to her other work.

[Demit]

46. DemItAll's claim to be female is quite true. :)

The reason I weighed in originally was because Demeter seemed to think her one sentence comment in her OP was perfectly self-explanatory, and it wasn't. Also, how she then fairly bristled with contempt at anyone she decided was disagreeing with her really does get up my nose. Her hostility is so unwarranted as to be astounding.

For crying out loud! I've lived through fifty years of put downs and being condescended to by all kinds of men in all kinds of ways obvious and subtle. It never once crossed my mind to get a sex change so that that would stop. I assume there are more profound reasons, biological reasons, for taking such a profound step. I think it is ludicrous to infer from this article that the scientist had her sex-change operation because she was discriminated against as a woman. It is entering the realm of absurdity to look up the gender of commenters because they didn't draw the same faulty conclusion.

[bloom]

51. Absurdities

you wrote: "It is entering the realm of absurdity to look up the gender of commenters because they didn't draw the same faulty conclusion."

Absurd or not - I was asked:

"How do you know that people that were angered over the comments were male? Am I supposed to listen to digs against transsexuals just because they are "a woman's opinion"?"


And as I went on to explain - as you apparently were following the discussion - that I found the one-line comment to be understandable and in keeping with the subject of the article.

You wrote, "Her hostility is so unwarranted as to be astounding"

I saw it the other way - I saw your hostility and those of the other pilers on to be "so unwarranted as to be astounding". Out of balance.


I didn't take the comment as saying that people were expected to entertain surgery to be considered equal by all people. But reading the article - WOMEN could easily come to the conclusion that that is the most sure way - for women to be considered equal. Hence - my assumption.

I'm not so surprised that some men wouldn't get it. I guess I shouldn't be surprised if some women don't either.

[benevolent dictator]

58. If you look up the stats on transpeople

- which I would hope anyone *seriously* considering transitioning for the sake of "escaping" discrimination would do - you'd find that transpeople are far from "not discriminated against." That's a very bad way to escape discrimination. You face discrimination both from the straight community as well as the LGB community, and are only offered any kind of protections in a handful of states.

Maybe you just haven't spent a lot of time around transpeople.

[Warren Stupidity]

47. For the third time. The comment was almost entirely

irrelevant to the article, which article was primarily about gender discrimination, not sexual reassignment surgery. The idiocy that I cannot comment about this topic because I am male deserves no further discussion.

[bloom]

52. And from my POV

If you can't see where the comment was relevant - then you didn't get the article.

I'm not saying you can't comment. I think you just didn't get it. And wanted to make a big fight about it.

[undergroundpanther]

36. I am transsexual

And the fact my body is biologically a problem for me to live in ,is not ANYONE ELSE'S issue to say anything about but mine. I think if you want to change genders or have no gender at all,or you like your gender it is NOT anyone else's business to control who you are or discriminate ..period

As for discrimination and sexism,ALL these arrogant bullies and bully males need a knee to the nuts. Also more women need to learn to not feel so inhibited,and to go ahead and speak over the men,look them in the eye,and demand to be treated as an equal person,don't back down,don't let bullies degrade you or minimize your voice as if they are entitled to do that and patronize because they THINK they have dick privileges.

Don't be so nice with these bullies.At some point you gotta just fuck the decorum. Some people don't deserve respect.Because when decorum becomes a tool of discrimination by dominating assholes it is a weapon to silence your voice.Sadly too many males in this culture act as entitled and the saddest part is often they are oblivious to their sick conditioning.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/undergroundpanther/33
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/undergroundpanther/19

“Was there ever any domination that did not appear natural to those who possessed it?”
]John Stuart Mill (1806-1873) Economist and Philosopher

"When will justice come? When those who are not injured are as indignant as those who are."

[undergroundpanther]

37. Demeter

Just because you do not understand how a person can be transgendered and you are happy in your birth gender/body.. Does not mean people who are different than you and feel pain about their gender are mutilating their bodies by getting SRS.. I for one have found alot of sanity and peace every step I take twords repairing my gender issues and changing into the person I am.Why be bound by BIOLOGY when you do not have to be? I am very uncomfortable with being by biological gender. and I have physical reasons as well as psychological.. Getting my uterus out was the best thing I ever did so far for my own mental health.To stay a female would kill me,literally.Sometimes playing a role,staying the same, staying in the closet and lying costs too much. So for me surgical intervention is better than facing slow torment and suicide. Get some empathy,because to empathize with a person as a human being first gets you away from gender,you do not need to understand why or control others genders.Why you needed to put a dig at Trans people on a post about discrimination is beyond me.
Read this
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/undergroundpanther/19
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/undergroundpanther/24

Stigmas come at all kinds of people from so many directions.And they all are abusive.

[Demeter]

41. Who Said I Am Happy?

I just said that the price is too high for my pocket. Women's culture is all about making lemons into lemonade, anyway. Why else would any woman take a chance on marriage?

[undergroundpanther]

43. Are you comfortable in your birth gender?

Or not.??If you are comfortable in the body you got than your comments to transpeople are spoken from your comfort and ignorance about those of us who are not.
If you are transgender I suggest you get a good therapist and quit this projection of internalized transphobia and accept who you are whatever it is.You are the only one who can do that.

As for the point you also made in this post about women being abused by this culture,discrimination and sexism you are 100% correct.

[Demeter]

44. I Am as Comfortable As I Know How To Be

and not as comfortable as I would wish. Would I be better off passing as male? Not at this age, nor at any age. I have a hard enough time passing as female. Would I be more comfortable with a Y chromosome? Absolutely. Or a million dollars, I'm not too fussy.

If there is a spot for aggressive and intellectual female generalists, I haven't found it. My spirit doesn't reside in either camp.

On further thought==it is a male tendency to insist on either/or scenarios.

[undergroundpanther]

45. Yep...

On further thought==it is a male tendency to insist on either/or scenarios.
And Trans people are defying that either/or trap by changing it in a way that works for them.
Transgender issues are like a chicken egg situation,by time you are an adult the damage is done the best you can do is find comfort any way you can,and for some it is SRS.Others not. It is not an either/or world.And just because you feel uncomfortable about trans surgeries does not mean it is wrong for a transperson to want to be comfortable is it? Even if it seems "destructive " to you? You are not them, So how can you say they go about it all the wrong way..??. When the world is expresed in so many shades of colors?

[UpInArms]

48. Lawrence Summers is not human

* In a 1991 internal memorandum, then-World Bank economist and current Deputy Secretary of Treasury Lawrence Summers argued for the transfer of waste and dirty industries from industrialized to developing countries. "Just between you and me, shouldn't the World Bank be encouraging more migration of the dirty industries to the LDCs (lesser developed countries)?" Summers wrote. "I think the economic logic behind dumping a load of toxic waste in the lowest wage country is impeccable and we should face up to that. ... I've always thought that underpopulated countries in Africa are vastly under polluted; their air quality is vastly inefficiently low compared to Los Angeles or Mexico City." Summers later said the memo was meant to be ironic.

http://multinationalmonitor.org/hyper/mm0697.04.html

[bloom]

53. Unfortunately

it's not just Lawrence Summers who promotes discrimination and likes to be clueless about it.

[eridani]

50. Interesting parallel to MTF transsexuals

When pre-op, they understand sexism intellectually but not viscerally, and are often not at all prepared to deal with it. I've heard at least one say that the feeling of being at home in her gender wasn't worth the aggravation on some days. Needless to say, whether MTF or FTM, gaining or losing privilege is never the primary consideration.

[benevolent dictator]

55. Maybe it's just because it's so early in the AM

but your comment is the most transphobic thing I've read all day.

[WhiteTara]

59. interesting to see what women know as fact

validated.

"I think we want to step back and ask, why is it that almost all Nobel Prize winners are men today?" she concluded. "The answer to that question may be the same reason why all the great scientists in Florence were Christian."

[ProgressiveEconomist]

60. Survey some more people who've done this and you'll have

data with a "crossover design"