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CrisisPapers Donating Member (271 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-15-07 09:33 AM
Original message
Liberals and Libertarians
| Ernest Partridge |

At the outset of my professional career in the Sixties, I lived and worked in New York City and its suburbs. There I witnessed the rise of libertarianism as Ayn Rand and her disciples frequently appeared on TV, talk radio and public forums, at which I was an occasional participant. (Rand was in fact a libertarian who rejected the label, as many self-described "libertarians" failed to subscribe fully to her "objectivist" catechism).

This was, at the same time, the high tide of liberalism as Lyndon Johnson's "Great Society" rolled through Congress and as Barry Goldwater, the "conscience of conservatism" suffered a crushing defeat in the 1964 election.

The clash between the liberals and the libertarians generated heated and exciting debates, whereby both contesting ideologies were refined and clarified.

Little did the liberals suspect then that three and four decades hence, libertarianism would become a significant player in American politics.

Today, many liberals insist (and I concur), that the ascendance of libertarianism is the result, not of the cogency of its ideology, but of the overwhelming financial and media resources that have promoted it.

Where liberals and libertarians meet -- and part

Libertarianism does not fit in comfortably with either the Democrats or the Republicans, which explains the determined, if futile, persistence of the Libertarian Party. However, when faced with the forced choice of the lesser of two evils, most Libertarians have sided with the Republicans.

Now that is beginning to change, as many libertarians are deserting the GOP and joining the liberal Democrats in a fragile alliance of convenience. They are doing so as they find their principles of minimal government, personal autonomy, fiscal responsibility and church-state separation massively betrayed by the theocrats and crypto-fascists that have taken control of the Republican Party. At the same time, the Republicans continue to proclaim the libertarian ideals of the free market and privatization, as they cut back on government services.

The common ground between the liberals and libertarians is found in their endorsement of personal autonomy, as articulated by John Stuart Mill: "Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign." (On Liberty, Ch. 1). Accordingly, the libertarians (and less enthusiastically, the liberals), oppose the criminalization of so-called "victimless crimes," such as prostitution, homosexuality, and "recreational" drug use, and both insist that the government has no business interfering with a woman's personal decision whether or not to continue a pregnancy.

Notwithstanding this ground of common agreement, the differences between liberalism and libertarianism are fundamental and irreconcilable.

To begin, the libertarian's advocacy of completely unfettered individual "sovereignty" extends to property rights and economic activity. Thus the libertarian is steadfastly opposed to zoning restrictions or to seizure of property by eminent domain. And the libertarian endorses, without qualification, the unrestricted free market, confident that the summation of individual "capitalist acts by consenting adults" (Robert Nozick) will result in optimal results for all.

On the other hand, the liberal, while not hostile to free markets and private property, insists that both must be regulated and occasionally be curtailed "in the public interest."

And why shouldn't one extend unrestricted personal liberty to include property and a liberty of economic activity? What justifies the liberal's insistence upon government regulation of the economy? The answer lies in two principles endorsed by both liberals and libertarians. First, the "no harm principle:" "the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised ... is to prevent harm to others. (J. S. Mill). And second, the "like liberty principle:" "Each person is to have an equal right to the most extensive total system of equal basic liberties compatible with a similar system of liberty for all." (John Rawls)

The liberal will argue that the libertarian fails to recognize the full implications of these principles, for, if he did, the libertarian would find that an unconstrained free market results in harm to others and to a loss of their liberties. Furthermore, unconstrained free markets are self-eliminating, since they lead to cartels and monopolies. Thus the necessity for regulation and anti-trust laws.

The liberal's insistence that unrestricted property rights and unregulated free markets can be socially harmful and contrary to the public interest leads to another fundamental and irreconcilable difference with the libertarian:

Society and "the public"

Simply stated, the libertarian denies the existence of "society" and "the public." If this sounds outlandish, consider the following observations by three prominent libertarians. First, Margaret Thatcher: "There is no such thing as society – there are individuals and there are families." Next Ayn Rand: "There is no such entity as ‘the public,' since the public is merely a number of individuals." Finally, Frank Chodorov: "Society is a collective concept and nothing else; it is a convenience for designating a number of people."

The implications of these pronouncements are radical in the extreme, for if there is no such thing as "a public," it follows that there are no "public goods" or "public interest," apart from summation of private goods and interests. Moreover, if there is no society, it follows that there are no "social problems," there is no "social injustice," and there are no "victims of society." The poor presumably choose their condition; poverty is the result of "laziness" or, as the religious right would put it, a "sin." There are further implications. Since there is no such thing as a "public," taxation for the support of such "so-called" public institutions as education, libraries, the arts, parks and recreation, is coercive seizure of private property, or "theft."

The liberal replies that this denial of the very existence of "society" and "the public" is reductionism, plain and simple – what the Brits call "nothing-buttery." It is comparable to saying that Hamlet is "nothing but" words, that Beethoven's music is "nothing but" notes, and that the human brain is "nothing but" cells and electro-chemical events.

Refutation of this keystone of libertarianism is simple and straightforward. If we can cite cases in which advantages to each individual harms the interest of all individuals, and conversely that harm to each individual benefits all individuals, then, by distinguishing "each" and "all" we have demonstrated the existence of an "all-entity," "society," that is distinct from a summation of "each" individual. Because I have devoted two chapters of my book in progress to proving that society is more than the sum of its component members ("good for each, bad for all," and "bad for each, good for all") I will let just two examples suffice here.

Antibiotics: The over-use of antibiotics "selects" resistant "super-bugs," decreasing the effectiveness of antibiotics for all. But just one more anti-biotic prescription for a trivial, "self-limiting" bronchial infection won't make a significant difference "in general," while it will clearly benefit the individual patient. But multiply that individual doctor's prescription by the millions, and we have a serious problem. "Good for each patient, bad for the general population." The solution: restrict the use of antibiotics to the seriously ill. Individuals with trivial and non-life-threatening ailments must "tough it out." "Bad for each, good for all."

Traffic laws: We all agree that traffic laws can be a nuisance. But if you believe that traffic lights constrain your freedom of movement, try to drive across Manhattan during a power outage! In the blackouts of 1965 and 1977 in the eastern United States and Canada, traffic began to move only after the police and a few citizen volunteers stood at the intersections and directed traffic. (I was in Manhattan during both events). The decision of each driver to accept constraints worked to the advantage of all. So too with the traffic lights and stop signs that we encounter daily. We are all freer to move about only because we have collectively agreed to restrict our individual freedom of movement. "Bad for each, good for all."

To sum up: "society" is not, as the libertarians would have us believe, simply a physical location where autonomous private individuals "do their own thing," from which activity somehow, "as if by an invisible hand" (Adam Smith), benefits for all accrue without foresight or planning. On the contrary, the liberal insists, a society is more than the sum of its individual parts. A society is, as John Rawls puts it, "a cooperative venture for mutual advantage makes possible a better life for all than any would have if each were to live solely by his own efforts." As the anti-biotics and traffic examples illustrate, common goods are achieved through individual constraint and sacrifice. " Bad for each, good for all." Conversely, unconstrained self-serving behavior by each individual can harm society as a whole. "Good for Each, Bad for all."

The liberal does not deny that self-serving individual behavior, for example by scientists, entrepreneurs and artists, often or even usually results in benefits for all. ("Good for each, good for all"). Instead, the liberal insists that this is not a universal rule. In innumerable instances, such as the two presented above, it can be clearly shown that social benefit requires individual constraint and sacrifice.

Concerning rights

The libertarian recognizes three fundamental rights: to life, liberty and property. All three are "negative rights" – rights to non-interference by others. From these rights are derived the only legitimate functions of government: protection of life, liberty and property from within (the police), from abroad (the military), and the adjudication of property disputes (the civil courts). And because these are the only legitimate functions of government, all other existing government services and property should be privatized.

The liberal, while accepting the libertarian triad of negative rights, also proclaims the citizens' "positive rights" – to an education, to employment with a living wage and safe working conditions, to a clean and safe environment, etc. These rights arise from the fact that the liberal, unlike the libertarian, recognizes social benefits and public interests. Communities flourish, the liberal insists, when they include an educated work force, when the citizens are assured that their basic needs for livelihood and health-care are met, and when the citizens share the conviction that the society is their society and that they have a role in its governance. And because the communal activity produces more wealth than would be obtained by the sum of individual efforts, members of the community have positive rights to a share of that wealth, and to community assistance in case of misfortune.

Accordingly, Ayn Rand's ubermensch, John Galt, is a fantasy. There is no fully "self-made man," morally free of all responsibility and obligation to the society that nurtured him and sustains him. On the contrary, as the nineteenth century sociologist, W. T. Hobhouse observed:

The organizer of industry who thinks he has 'made' himself and his business has found a whole social system ready to his hand in skilled workers, machinery, a market, peace and order -- a vast apparatus and a pervasive atmosphere, the joint creation of millions of men and scores of generations. Take away the whole social factor, and we have not Robinson Crusoe with his salvage from the wreck and his acquired knowledge, but the native savage living on roots, berries and vermin.

Moral perspective

As we have noted above, human rights are at the center of both the libertarian and the liberal ideologies. And from this pivotal center, the two ideologies diverge.

They diverge because libertarians and progressives articulate their moral and political philosophies from radically different perspectives.
  • The Libertarian: From the point of view of the individual ("the egocentric point of view"). "Good for each." From this perspective, the individual is enjoined to " live for his own sake, neither sacrificing himself to others nor sacrificing others to himself." (Ayn Rand).

  • The Progressive: From the perspective of an unbiased benevolent spectator of society ("the moral point of view"). "Good for all."
Thus the libertarian (who, recall, denies the very existence of "society") advocates the maximum liberty for each individual. The liberal, on the other hand, seeks to maximize the amount of liberty extant in the society.

The liberal argues that, paradoxically, the egocentric point of view can not accomplish the libertarian goal of maximizing individual liberty. It fails, because individual liberties, and especially the liberties enjoyed by the privileged, powerful and wealthy, constrain the liberties and diminish the welfare of others. In other words, they violate the "no harm" and "like liberty" principles." "Good for each, bad for all."

Furthermore, the libertarian's egocentric perspective fails because political and economic problems are not problems of individuals, they are problems of groups (i.e., of "all"), and therefore the interests of all affected individuals must be taken into account. The liberal proposes that these interests are best "taken into account," fairly and equally, from the perspective of a hypothetical individual who is unbiased and benevolent – seeking the best result for all while respecting the inalienable rights of each.

In fact, no such neutral observer is actually necessary, for each moral agent, and the agent's surrogate, the government, is quite capable of adopting the point of view of the hypothetical "unbiased benevolent observer." Indeed, we did just that as we found solutions to the aforementioned problems, the use of anti-biotics and traffic control, whereby constraints upon each resulted in benefits to all. There we found that the astute moral agent would, as a "the unbiased benevolent observer," perceive that all would benefit from antibiotics if these drugs were not prescribed for inconsequential ailments, and the same observer would conclude that the freedom of vehicular movement for all is enhance by imposing constraining rules upon each.

The perspective of the "unbiased neutral observer" has a name – in fact, numerous names, since it is one of the most familiar concepts in the history of political theory and moral philosophy: "the impartial spectator" (Adam Smith), "the ideal observer" (John Stuart Mill), "the general will" (Rousseau), "the view from nowhere" (Thomas Nagel), "the original position" (John Rawls), and my personal favorite, "the moral point of view" (Kurt Baier, Kai Nielsen and many more).

And who or what is most appropriately entitled to adopt the perspective of the "unbiased, benevolent observer?" What else than an agency selected and acting by the consent of the people, an agency that enacts and administers laws to the benefit of all, an agency constituted to "establish Justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty."

That agency has a name: "democratic government." And in case you didn't notice, the above quotation is from the Preamble to the Constitution of the United States.

The menace of libertarianism

Libertarianism appears, at last, to be succumbing to the consequences of its own "success." We are discovering at last that this stark and simple theory cannot accommodate itself to social and political realities. For there is, in fact, such a thing as a "society," and there is a "public interest." Social problems are not solved, and social justice is not obtained, through the egocentric point of view -- the pursuit of self-interest by each individual in a mythical "free market." Instead, as we have seen and as the liberal insists, the public interest is best perceived through the "moral point of view" – the perspective of the unbiased benevolent observer" of society.

Libertarianism, a fascinating intellectual diversion and challenge in the sixties, has become a menace in this new century. The denial of the very existence of society and the public interest is an invitation to chaos, which must result in the unraveling of civilization and the just society, and in its place a government of, by, and for the privileged, the powerful, and the wealthy.

Proving libertarianism wrong and immoral is not difficult. However, removing the libertarians from power and repairing the damage that they have caused, will be horrendously difficult.

And there is no guarantee that these efforts will succeed.

A Postscript: Due to space constraints, I have been obliged to make several bold claims without supporting arguments. However, I have defended most of these claims at length elsewhere, in works that I have linked in this essay. There the reader will also find citations for the quotations in this essay.

-- EP
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Demeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-15-07 09:43 AM
Response to Original message
1. The Libertarians Made Denial a Way of Life, &the The GOP Bought UP
and with which the corporate Democrats continue experimenting. Speaking of which, is Impeachment on the table yet? We're getting awfully hungry!
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lynnertic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-15-07 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
2. Can you provide a link to this article, or did you write it here?
Thanks,
:hi:
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Demeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-15-07 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. This is a regular columnist for DU
Edited on Tue May-15-07 10:44 AM by Demeter
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lynnertic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-15-07 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. oh, thanks.
:hi:
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MikeH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-15-07 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #2
11. Here is a link on the author's web site
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ProspectorBill Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-15-07 01:08 PM
Response to Original message
4. Bold Assumptions and Metaphors
I want to know where the "rights" to education and fair paying wage are located. Leave me alone and get the government out of my life.
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Daphne08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-15-07 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Had you not been educated, would you even be asking the
question?

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Ernest Partridge Donating Member (66 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-16-07 02:39 AM
Response to Reply #4
16. Here's your answer
Education, fair wage, and government are pre-requisites of a just and prosperous society.

You want government out of your life?

Fine. But consider the implications. Here http://www.crisispapers.org/essays-p/refuseniks.htm

and here. http://www.igc.org/gadfly/progressive/umpire.htm

As for education, you should pay for others' education as a fair assessment for what others' education has done for you.

This is what I mean by that. http://www.igc.org/gadfly/progressive/education.htm

The Author
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TheMadMonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-16-07 03:53 AM
Response to Reply #4
17. Self appointed strawman. (Or a masochist)
Fair paying wage = a wage which allows a person to afford the basic necessities of life for him and his.

This posting contains standard Oxford English masculine gender neutral pronouns. Live with it.

And despite (or perhaps because) my being something of a welfare case for much of my adult life, I do think that welfare support should not be totally free. If an individual cannot find employment then the government will provide him with something to do with his time. Be it: sweep the gutters; or weed/clear/maintain a nearby wetland, creek or park, something which is to the common good.


A fair education = the provision of the means whereby an individual (to the best of his capacities) may secure a fair paying wage. Without a certain minimum of instilled abstract knowledge an individual is condemned to living at the whims of the more privileged (literally, private law).


I notice also that you neglected to mention health-care (I suppose that means you're up for a spanking but not a whipping. :D)

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petunia.here Donating Member (102 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-15-07 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
5. Very interesting read.
Our ability to function as vast societies is surely something to celebrate and to perfect. To deny such is to hold us back in the most fundamental way. (imo)
Most definitely a case of good for the individual bad for the collective. I'd say it's a pandemic-scale problem.
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PATRICK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-15-07 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
7. Poisoned ingredients
and an actually anti-intellectual stew very like Conservatism in general. Capitalist libertarians. Having their cake and liberated by stylized selfishness. Rights are property and pleasure. Liberty is personal and evident in how it is denied to others, notably the boobs who can't make it in the wonderland of "free" capital. Freedom without responsibility. Conviction without sacrifice. The individual over the society(which is what the bugbear about civil government being fundamentally evil amounts to).

Like all good things corrupted it has its attractions and escapes for people of real merit, thought and conviction. But few can see the trap, notice the gang they hang around with says a lot about the ideology, handle the personal consequences of this strange disengagement and throttling of society for the sake of all too blatant greed. They might agree with some of the same things as other people but for their own ends and reasons. Many want to decriminalize drugs- for two reasons that are in fact ones. They may be users and they in general fear/detest authority other than their own.

Mainly though as a movement they seem to enjoy the same intellectual vacuum as the rest of the right wing for the sake of merely reaping unjust rewards and accruing power, punishing alternate points of view. Anyone who wants to rejoin the mainstream human race, the passionately just can jump off from the pretensions of libertarianism, but in themselves they are false pretensions however legitimate or agreeable or "reasonable" any one individual presents or lives them.

Wedding any ideology of freedom to the realm of money and greed utterly vacates and corrupts rationality or nobility or reality. Their main choice as freedom dedicated individuals- to go for the biggest monetary temple of reward- is simply the moth to the flame. Oh the oddity of it. Insect analogies, not the rugged individualist after all. They probaly have even learned to hate words like liberal, humanist, shared responsibility, personal duty.
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iamahaingttta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-15-07 08:24 PM
Response to Original message
8. That's a hell of a lot of words, Ernest...
...to say what can be said in seven:

"Libertarians are a bunch of fucking idiots!"

Seriously, I've known a lot of them over the years, and to a man ('cause there ain't many lady libertarians!) they're weenies, who over"think" things and have no goddamn idea how the world really works. I have yet to meet a libertarian who did not get a fine public school education, who did not at some point benefit from the "public good" etc., and yet I've had to endure more stupid, boring conversations than I care to admit about how right they are.

Eeeech!

Libertarians are weenies!
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MikeH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-15-07 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. I did know one lady libertarian
She was a computer science professor at the state university I went to. She was actually a very good instructor, but she was very active in libertarian politics, and ran for Congress one year.

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iamahaingttta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-16-07 07:19 AM
Response to Reply #12
19. And she taught at a State University?
Didn't her face melt off from the hypocrisy?
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TheMadMonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-16-07 06:32 AM
Response to Reply #8
18. Looked in a mirror lately?
There are plenty of liberal idea(l)s that are pretty bloody stupid too if you chose to look to the extremes.

From where I stand, the "ideal government" is an amalgam of Libertarianism, and Progressive. Essentially, if you have something unique (and desirable) to offer, society will recompense you value for value as a matter of course (libertarianism). However, if you take from the many, then, one way or another you WILL return value (according to your means).

The biggest "stumbling block" raised to "required return of value" is the disadvantaging of "dependent hostages". WTF? A "provider" who holds his "dependents" hostage deserves nothing more than a size 13 rectal probe. And a co-provider who who puts an interpersonal adult relationship ahead of their own/mutual dependents can try one of Thorpie's size 16s in for size.

Ultimately, for the good of society (yeah, yeah, bloody liberal BS) a child's right to their bio-parents is subsumed by society's right to their becoming a productive member as an adult. Multi-generational welfare families are harmful to both society and their members.
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TygrBright Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-15-07 11:20 PM
Response to Original message
10. Just for you, Ernie... an oldie but goodie
(This is a reprint of an item first posted in 2004.)

YO! Libertarians! Check this out…

I’ve noticed that y’all have a tendency to sniff around Democratic-type places from time to time. I assume you’re either thinking wishfully that if you could just *explain* things right, we’d all agree with you and the Democratic Party would embrace the Libertarian agenda, or maybe that you can woo some Democrats away to join y’all in the bunker.

Hold your breaths… that is, if you look good in blue.

I can understand that there are *elements* of the Democratic Party agenda that appeal to Libbies:

1. We believe that whatever sexual activity occurs between two consenting adults in private is a matter between themselves, their consciences, and their nearest and dearest who may be affected by their actions.

2. We believe that consenting adults who choose to make the moral and social commitment to form a family unit should be entitled to the same legal and social benefits of that union, regardless of their sexual orientation.

3. Many of us believe that marijuana should be decriminalized, and a small but significant proportion of us favor legalization.

4. There is a strong populist tradition in the Party that favors the power of individual private citizens over the power of corporate private institutions, when it comes to exercising the privileges and responsibilities of a self-governing democracy.

These specific small parts of the Democratic Party’s conceptual framework for democratic government just happen to coincide with the Libertarian agenda.

But it’s a superficial coincidence, at best—because our reasons for those policies are based on an underlying philosophy that is not only different from the Libertarian philosophy, but possibly antithetical to it.

I’ve been an active Democrat for more than 35 years, so I will assume a privilege of seniority and explain the Party as I know it:

MY DEMOCRATIC PARTY: by TygrBright

My Democratic Party believes that the purpose of a citizen government to build a better society for *every* citizen—including the vulnerable, the dissenters, the sick, the despised, the poor, the elderly. We believe that the measure of a civilization is in how well the benefits of a society are shared and distributed throughout the society.

My Democratic Party sees a citizen government as a force for good, an engine of progress, a powerful tool to help the citizens of a nation create conditions where all of those citizens can flourish.

We recognize that in a democracy, even a representative one, the government should be “us,” not “them.”

My Democratic Party acknowledges the down side of representative democracy—that in handing legislative and executive power over to representatives, we also hand over the temptations that go with that role. The temptations to perpetuate themselves in power at any cost, the temptation to advance the interests of the powerful and the wealthy at the expense of the greater constituency, the temptation to abrogate more power to the representatives and the bureaucracy than is good for the body politic.

But we also know that the solution to these problems is not by turning upon our citizen government and vilifying it and dismembering it, but by taking the time and the effort and the thought to participate more fully in it and to return it to the interests of the people.

My Democratic Party willingly makes the tradeoff between creating a citizen-controlled government to ensure common well-being, and occasionally having to take the effort to hold that government accountable, to place checks and balances upon it, and to exercise the responsibilities of citizenship.

We understand that collectively, using the power of a citizen government, we can do much, MUCH more to ensure the common good of ourselves and our neighbors than by saying “every man for himself” and allowing the barbarism of social Darwinist philosophy to control our actions.

We know that sometimes we have to sacrifice individual freedoms to ensure the good of the community. My Democratic Party would rather have the Law of the People regulate our common actions, than the Law of the Jungle.

We’re willing to restrict some individuals from actions which will damage the overall well-being of their neighbors. And we would rather delegate the enforcement of those restrictions to a trained group of professionals who are mandated to act within strict controls.

My Democratic Party believes we can accomplish all this with the good will and participation of all citizens, and that this is the way to build a strong nation of people who care about one another.

Of course, I am biased, I admit it. I think that this is a better philosophical base for forming a social group than the Libertarian philosophy. Objectively, removing considerations of “good/better,” however, I will concede that it may not be “better” than Libertarianism. But what it is, is DIFFERENT from Libertarianism.

FUNDAMENTALLY different. And people who believe in the Democratic Party’s fundamental philosophy of government as a powerful and effective tool for the people to use freely in building a better community are NOT likely to be thrilled with the fundamental philosophy of individual autonomy prioritized over community well-being that underlies Libertarianism.

So WHY are you wasting your time here?

curiously,
Bright
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provis99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-16-07 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. tygrbright, that's one of the best summations of the Democratic belief system
that I've seen. Splendid work. Can I copy and quote it?
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TygrBright Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-16-07 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #13
21. Be my guest! n/t
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Faryn Balyncd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-16-07 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. So, Tygrbright, do you recommend that libertarians who supported "your" party in 2006.....


So, Tygrbright, do you recommend that libertarians who supported "your" party in 2006 stop "wasting time" here and revert to supporting Republicans or a 3rd party in 2008?


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TygrBright Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-16-07 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #14
22. Nope, I don't "recommend" they do anything...
...'cause (for one thing) in my experience, the minute you recommend a Libbie to do something, they go out and do the other thing.

And also, I have a constitutional (as opposed to Constitutional) disinclination to try and tell other people what they "should" do, anyway. I have problems enough keeping ME doing what I "should" do, I hate messin' in other folks' business.

But I admit to curiousity about why Libbies would put time and energy into hangin' out at a Democratic website when there's plenty of Libertarian sites they can hang around at and not have their blood pressure go up every ten minutes or so.

FWIW, I never got any answers to that question when I first posted this in 2004, either.

philosophically,
Bright
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Faryn Balyncd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-16-07 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. Could your concept of a "Libbie" be perhaps over-stereotyped?

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TygrBright Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-16-07 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Why not? I don't claim infallibility.
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Faryn Balyncd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. Perhaps fallibility may be another area of "common ground"......


between "Libbies" and progressives.

And the battle against the warmongering, proto-fascist, corporatist, lawless authoritarians is far from over.

Could perhaps all of us, imperfect as we are, be needed?

In the 2006 elections, Democrats received broad support from many independents, libertarians and even disaffected conservatives who believe they have more in common, on many critical issues (war,civil liberties, due process, the rule of law, corporatism), with progressives, than with the Faux "conservatives" who have shrunken the GOP's purported "big tent".

Is the broad-based consensus that won the 2006 elections so invulnerable that such "common ground" should be ignored, and those who do not pass a progressive litmus test be rebuffed?



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TygrBright Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Common ground should never be ignored...
...and a working alliance is nothing to sneeze at, certainly. I dunno about "progressives," my post was talking about the Democratic Party. Any libbie who wants to vote for a Dem should be encouraged. As you say, the battle is far from over, and the stakes are very high indeed.

But that is not the same as saying that libbies aren't wasting time trying to influence the ideology and policies of the Democratic Party. That IS a waste of their time. The bedrock ideals of each ideology are in serious difference at far too many points for such efforts to have positive effects. They are more likely to piss Dems off and make them less welcoming to libertarians who want to make progress on the common ground that IS shared.

We can agree to disagree on the many, many places where Democratic Party and libertarian ideologies are at variance. We can look to the common ground we do share when we share it, and try to work constructively together on those issues. We can restrain the more destructive rhetoric that accompanies our opposition to one another on other issues, to try and keep the poison from leaching over and threatening what common causes we can make.

I make no secret of the fact that I disagree with much of the libertarian ideology and why, but I'm not gonna waste my time trying to convince any libbies that I'm right about that. I'm not gonna go hang out at libbie websites and try to hijack threads and inject Democratic Party ideology into the discussions. I'd hope for the same courtesy in return.

amiably,
Bright
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Ernest Partridge Donating Member (66 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-16-07 02:12 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. The Author Replies:
Thanks, TB:

I agree completely.

A perfect complement to my essay.

For still more, see my "The Public Interest and the Limits of Volunteerism."
www.crisispapers.org/essays6p/volunteerism.htm .

Ernie
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fasttense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-16-07 08:29 AM
Response to Original message
20. Very well stated CrisisPapers
What the Libertarian seems to be forgetting is what works well on the micro level, doesn't work on the macro level. The behavior of atoms and cells is not simply repeated in the organisms they build. They form something much more vast and complex. The Hippie communes of the 60s worked when they were small but when their populations grew too large, the fair distribution of work and resources was frequently subverted by greedy and often anonymous leaders.

A small society can work for the benefit of all if individual freedom is considered paramount but a large society can't. The thief who steals a bicycle can be easily recognized because everyone knows everyone in the small society. They know John's bicycle, and they know the thief who stole it doesn't have a similar bike so he is easily apprehended. They know that despite what Fred says, his repair shop does a poor job. and they don't bring their broken appliances to him. But in a large society, the thief could have a bike like Johns, no one knows for sure. People will still bring their broken appliances to Fred because new people are joining the town everyday and his prices are reasonable. He may have little repeat business but he still makes a living off of the unsuspecting newcomer.

On the macro level a corporation can get away with polluting the water in a small town because the people who buy the corporation's product don't know they are polluting and slowly killing the town's population.

The "free market" did nothing to stop Jim Crow laws. Stores and pharmacies who forced black people to go to back entrances to get their food and products sometimes lost that share of the market, but they made enough from everyone else to be able to afford to disenfranchise black American citizens.

The "free market" did nothing to destroy Apartheid in South Africa or the US until the government stepped in. A "free market" can flourish under almost any abusive, inhumane and unjust government as we are seeing in Communist China. It is not a democratizing force nor is individual selfishness a liberating force in a large society.

The Libertarian who refuses to acknowledge that micro and marco societies are not interchangeable, is like the scientist who refuses to acknowledge that psychology and sociology are not interchangeable.
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