Agency's Strangeloves altered mind of a girl aged 4

[Purveyor]

Source: The Australian

--

Of all the heinous acts committed by the CIA in the name of national security, these experiments, done on the agency's behalf by prominent psychiatrists on innocent victims - including children as young as four - may be the darkest.

"We have no answer to the moral issue," former director Richard Helms infamously said when asked about the nature of the projects.

The release of the Family Jewels documents revealed the CIA handsomely funded these real-life Dr Strangeloves and engaged pharmaceutical companies to help its experiments.
--

"The CIA bought my services from my grandfather in 1952 starting at the tender age of four," wrote Carol Rutz of her experiences.

"Over the next 12 years, I was tested, trained, and used in various ways. Electroshock, drugs, hypnosis, sensory deprivation, and other types of trauma were used to make me complain and split my personality (to create multiple personalities for specific tasks). Each alter or personality was created to respond to a post-hypnotic trigger, then perform an act and (I would) not remember it later.

"This Manchurian Candidate program was just one of the operational uses of the mind-control scenario by the CIA.



Read more: http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/printpage/0%2C5942%2C21980496%2C00.html

---

Holy shit!!!

[seemslikeadream]

1. a few folks have been posting about this stuff for years here

I don't think many believe it

[smtpgirl]

Yep, some of my threads were locked and deleted because

I have written things about so-called "conspiracy theories".

Alot of this IMO is believable. I just don't trust corporations, government, military.

[IndianaGreen]

109. The scum that complain about "conspiracy theories" are trying to keep the truth to be aired

Look at their behaviour whenever someone mentions anything about 9-11 that conflicts with the official version of events. Heck, even in DU they have succeeded in getting all stories about 9-11 and black box voting shoved down to DU's basement. We play into their hands when we listen to their defence of the official version of events. No wonder liberals always lose!

[The Doctor.]

21. MK Ultra. Bi-location, Super-soldier Black Ops programs are very real.

On behalf of those of us who have extrapolated capabilities and projected the likelyhood of a DOD with a Gazillion dollars creating these programs, I'd just like to say to all of the denialists;

- 'told ya' so'.

The bi-locators have spoken, but few listened to them. (no, it's not a special kind of 'gay-dar'.) We'll see if this is the crack in the Dike.

[Matariki]

64. what are 'bi-locators'?

I would think that means the ability to be in two places at once. I doubt the cia can do *that*

[The Doctor.]

74. Well, if this is a serious question,

I'll tell you.

Is it important to you?

[orleans]

89. i'd really like to know. please explain bi-locators n/t

[The Doctor.]

147. Well...

"you don't root for the team that destroys the field, raises ticket prices, gouges at the concession stand, and incurrs more penalties than any other just because they wear your jersey."

There's another guy here who joined in 2002... I'll favor him with the answer. (he's probably grey-ops :yoiks: )

:smoke:

[Shipwack]

115. I'll second the request to know...

I even googled the term, and a wide range of possible definitions, as well as much junk.

[The Doctor.]

148. When I was younger, I experimented with consciousness.

It's really not so complicated... if you've been there.

Start with a thousand breaths, if you get to a thousand, start again.

No shit.


If I believe you, I'll teach you. It really isn't that hard.

(Oh shit... they're at my door!)

[otherlander]

126. Yeah, what the other people said. Can you tell us?

At first I thought I might be the only one who didn't know, but apparently a lot of people don't know, either. :shrug: Please?

[Matariki]

138. Yes, I really would like to know.

Hope my other post didn't seem flipant. There is an occult idea of bi-location, but I'm guessing what you mean is something different(?)

[yardwork]

45. My understanding is that these documents prove the truth. The CIA admitted these activities.

These documents were created by the CIA in the 1970s to document activities that the Agency acknowledged that they did in the 1940s through the early 1970s.

God only knows what the CIA has been doing since, but a lot of us have some suspicions. I do not believe that the CIA or the federal government stopped.

[Richard Steele]

2. We've been told for DECADES that such claims were all "tinfoil-hat" nonsense...

They weren't, now WERE they?

The CIA actually developed these techniques, and they WORK.

And now they've ADMITTED it.

[Purveyor]

4. What is missing is how many times they 'utilized' their subjects to carry out deeds "as instructed".

[Richard Steele]

10. Exactly.

There have been an AWFUL lot of "front page crimes"
committed over the years that FIT THE PROFILE of
a perp under the influence of post-hypnotic mind control.

The only reason that such notions were never investigated
was the "common knowledge" that such a thing was "impossible".

Well, now that excuse is GONE- It's not just "possible", it's HAPPENED.

Remind me again- Does Sirhan Sirhan have any recollection of the
night Bobby was murdered? Any recollection AT ALL of the man & woman
he was seen entering the building with?

[loudsue]

106. I would guess that those who assassinated Bobby & Martin were

likely suspects. And, wasn't John Hinkley's family associated with the bush cartel?

:kick:

[KoKo]

113. Agree and didn't the one who killed Bobby say he has no recollection

if what he did? I forgot his name was it Sirhan Sirhan....something like that.

[blm]

8. Gee - wonder how much Hinckley's parents charged Poppy?

.

[bleever]

12. It was probably just a favor between friends.

"How about a hand of solitaire, Johnny?"

[melody]

18. Damned straight

I wish people who accuse others of "tinfoil hat conspiracy theories" would read the
CIA file on "denigrating critics through chalking off deductions to false pattern
recognition and paranoia" ... in other words, shutting up their critics by calling
them conspiracy theorists.

[glitch]

19. That would require reading, so no. Best hope is to put it on the TeeVee from someone they trust

like Bill O'Reilly if they're right or (sorry, can't think of anyone) if they're left.

[otherlander]

127. Keith Olberman, maybe?

[glitch]

134. I see him as centrist, which looks left these days I guess. nt

[otherlander]

154. But he's honest

which is more important than his personal politics, IMHO, since his job is to distribute information.

[The Doctor.]

26. The Holocaust was a boon for the underground scientific community.

Scientists without conscience or ethics engaged in utterly horrific experiments on human beings. They learned quite a bit.

At the end of WWII, many of those researchers needed a new place to work.

Guess who hired a bunch of them.

[Richard Steele]

41. And not just the German side of the "Axis", you know.

Japan developed and used assloads of BioWeapons in China during the war,
and tested their "efficiency" by dissecting thousands of people ALIVE...

We seized all the records of those acts after the war...and then we
RETURNED them all to Japan ten years later.
(without translating any of them, according to the "official" story :eyes:)

And it was almost 40 years before Japan had a "President of the
Japanese Medical Society" who HADN'T been a member of the
special "top secret army medical unit" who committed those ghastly,
inhuman crimes.

That can hardly be chalked up to "coincidence".

[yardwork]

48. And lots of the other Nazis went to Paraguay.

Which is where the Bushes and their business associates, coincidentally, have been buying a lot of land.

[defendandprotect]

70. OPERATION PAPERCLIP -- 54,000 NAZIS

JFK had found out about Operation Paperclip --

Allen Dulles' work.

Post WWII, we brought in Nazis -- along with their families -- at least 54,000 individuals

And specifically to follow thru with their filthy studies --

and more, presumably -- !!!

[Joe Chi Minh]

95. They must have cursed that they'd not been able to recruit Mengele,

the Angel of Death.

I wonder how many German-American Nazis were in the top positions of the CIA at that time. For the examplary German people of subsequent generations, the undeserved shame by association seems to be never-ending. The Germans made it clear to Rumsfeld he was unwelcome, and I dare say Bush hasn't met with the warmest of welcomes. Or has he visited Germany?

[soothsayer]

97. Project Paperclip---yes, Nazi scientists to Ft. Meade, Maryland

[Canuckistanian]

3. That's incredible

Intentionally poisoning people with Uranium?

They also mention that the Unabomber, Ted Kaczynski, was a volunteer for a CIA experimental mind-control program.

[Purveyor]

6. The attorney for Sirhan Sirhan...

The attorney for Sirhan Sirhan, Lawrence Teeter, has said his client was programmed to assassinate Robert Kennedy in 1968.

Theodore Kaczynski, the Unabomber, volunteered to take part in CIA mind-control experiments when he was a student at Harvard University in the late 50s

[Richard Steele]

11. I just mentioned Sirhan Sirhan in a post above. Wow, what a "COINCIDENCE".

I had no idea his Lawyer ever made such a direct claim-
it just always seemed obvious to me that he was such a
perfect fit for the "Manchurian" profile.

[roamer65]

23. The pieces of the puzzle are starting to fit.

I would not be surprised if Bobby Kennedy was killed by one of these "subjects". If the CIA killed Bobby, guess where else that leads us....1963....Nov...22nd.

[Canuckistanian]

31. Oswald?

You think that Oswald was a CIA "student"?

[defendandprotect]

69. OSWALD WAS EMPLOYED BY THE CIA AND WORKED ON HIGH LEVEL ASSIGNMENTS

According to the Tunheim Panel -- reported on A&E just before 2000 -

"OSWALD WAS EMPLOYED BY THE CIA AND WORKED ON HIGH LEVEL ASSIGNMENTS

AND PROBABLY ALSO FOR THE FBI."

[yardwork]

47. I've always thought that the 1968 assassination was the real conspiracy.

JFK's assassination may or may not have been the CIA, but there is no question that the government and corporations have pushed the conspiracy theories about 1963 to distract attention from the really peculiar circumstances of 1968.

I always wondered why nobody really talked about 1968 - why there isn't nearly as much attention given to it, and to Martin Luther King's murder. I think it's deliberate.

[defendandprotect]

71. RFK, MLK, Malcolm X --

The right-wing has rise only on political violence and the threat of political violence.

Martin Luther King's assassination was a conspiracy that was enacted largely by the FBI --
and a jury has found for a "conspiracy" in that case. There's a book by the lawyer -- Pepper -- on that.

The jury finding was largely ignored.

Also, the USHR was forced to decide that there was a "conspiracy" in the assassination of JFK --
also largely ignored.

[The Doctor.]

84. And there was one guy, back in 1998, I think...

This was the one guy on the planet who could literally stand up, and walk into the Oval Office through both the primary and presidential elections.

He was considered smart, affable, and philanthropic.

He would have run as a Democrat, most likely.

[antiimperialist]

92. that makes no sense

So a lone nut killed John, but a high-level conspiracy killed his brother?

Dude, there is enough evidence to conclude that JFK was killed by a CIA team coupled with the mafia. Now we know that these two were in cahoots. CIA hired mafia hitmen. The House Select Committee on assassinations concluded that there was more than one gunman. Oswald killed and Ruby was killed. The magic bullet theory was the most ridiculous theory put out there.

How do you explain all that? Both JFK and RFK were silenced by our agencies.

[antiimperialist]

93. Sirhan's diary

You tell me if these are not the words of a mind-controlled man:

[yardwork]

135. "Please pay to the order of"

Words that one would find on a bill for services. "Please pay to the order of (your name)."

Written over and over again, right next to "Robert F. Kennedy must be assassinated," written over and over again.

That is terrifying.

[otherlander]

153. "please pay to the order of of of of of this or that"

:wtf:

[yardwork]

130. I think that you misunderstood my post.

[lovuian]

81. They have been using mind control on many people but

the problem is they eventually remember...they have always been expendable

[1monster]

108. There has ALWAYS ALWAYS been talk that Sirhan Sirhan had been

a vitim of mind control, right from the first few weeks after Bobby's assassignation.

And then there are the facts that have trickled out over the years: Sirhan could not have been the one to assassignate Bobby because the bullets that killed him came from close behind. Sirhan was never closer than six feet in front of Bobby.

Ted Kaczynski...wow. It makes a kind of really bizzare and frightening sense.

How many people out there have been seriously damaged by our own tax dollars?

[The Backlash Cometh]

14. Hmmm...

Wouldn't it be convenient for the CIA to know what exactly galvanizes Americans? And would it suprise you to learn that anglo Americans have fears regarding people of other races, and that these fears can be exploited?

[LiberalFighter]

22. Fears only? How about hatred?

[The Backlash Cometh]

30. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that we have been psy-oped.

And that all that "learn'n" that the CIA did in the 70s, was applied to Americans in the 90s. Think about it. They got their selective conservative radios droning their hatred mantra, and Rupert Murdoch did the rest with t.v. Cheney, of course, unleashed the hounds.

Maybe that's what they're preparing us for? In which case, we have the dubious duty to help the Wall Street Journal fend off that traitor.

[Tunkamerica]

75. we hate what we fear

cliche only because it's true

[Canuckistanian]

28. I don't see this as a racial thing

In fact, I see the CIA at that time regarding non-whites as being inferior to whites. Not at all useful to their "goals".

As for exploiting their "goals", yes.

[The Backlash Cometh]

33. I mean, that what you've been seeing since the 90s, started with

their research. And what works is pitting white insular Americans against cultural diversity. Any cultural diversity.

[Canuckistanian]

37. Oh, yes, I see that

Starting with the "introduction" of crack cocaine in LA in the 80s.

:tinfoilhat:

[The Backlash Cometh]

40. Which brings up a good point.

Why do we want to make it easier for them by legalizing drugs?

[Dora]

50. Because by legalizing drugs....

... we end the steady supply of prison laborers.

[yardwork]

52. and potential victims of these kinds of experiments.

The government itself acknowledged that the torture inflicted in Abu Ghraib was learned in U.S. prisons, many of them run by private contractors. Who knows what really goes on in those private prisons all over the U.S.?

[cui bono]

125. Really? I didn't hear that. Do you have a link so I can read about it?

[yardwork]

129. Yes. Thank you for asking!

I pulled these articles off the first page of references google finds when you search for "U.S. prisons torture Abu Ghraib." There are dozens more.

Also, remember that the very few U.S. military personnel that were tried and convicted of torture in Abu Ghraib had been prison guards before they joined the military.

http://www.prisonactivist.org/?q=taxonomy_menu/9/59/92

http://www.infoshop.org/prisons/public_html/article.php?story=20051115154023420

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=/Nation/archive/200609/NAT20060928b.html

http://www.historiansagainstwar.org/resources/torture/brucefranklin.html

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article8451.htm

http://www.counterpunch.org/lomax06162005.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_prisoner_abuse

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nature_of_Abu_Ghraib_abuse

[The Backlash Cometh]

61. Oh, so it was about prison and not the crack addiction?

[hootinholler]

111. I always thought it was a method of caging. Pun not intended.

How many smart minds are jailed?

-Hoot

[Tunkamerica]

77. easier for them?

how would making drugs legal make it easier? It seems pretty easy already. They don't abide by drug laws so legalization would neither hinder nor facilitate their actions. In fact, it seems their introduction of drugs into ghettoes have hampered the drug legalization movement substantially. Perhaps it was a secondary goal. Who doesn't like a monopoly?

[The Doctor.]

62. Then there's this;

http://www.insteadof.com/TerrorAttack/p7.htm

Pay close attention to Lynda's account. Interestingly enough, I know her. I can vouch for her judgment personally.

(degrees of separation and all that)

[Canuckistanian]

98. There's no "Lynda" on that page

Are you talking of Linda Haner-Mele?

[The Doctor.]

146. Yeah, let's go with that.

[defendandprotect]

67. Ted Kaczynski,, Sirhan Sirhan .... and?

Disgusting revelations --

Interesting re Kozinski -- as though they wanted to have a bomber on the loose?
Or was Ted programmed for something else, as well?

Sirhan Sirhan is another Manchurian candidate --
and wasn't even in position to be able to shoot RFK within one inch from behind him.

Also, re the coup on JFK -- the front entry wound in the neck is thought to have been a dart projectile from an umbrella -- see "Umbrealla Man" -- which paralyzed him and kept him from sliding down in his seat so that he was still upright for the fatal shots.

This is "ridiculed" -- but that info also has come out that, indeed, at that time they did have such an instrument. I think as far back as the Church Hearings -- and those transcripts of the Church hearings, as I understand it, have never been released -- !!!

[Tunkamerica]

78. i don't anything about that EXCEPT...

when i was a kid we toured the FBI (museum?) and they had an umbrella gun on display.

[otherlander]

128. Why the hell would anyone volunteer for something like that?

[ima_sinnic]

5. some of these "mad gunmen" school shooters (Amish school)

are said to be the twisted result, years later ...

[Richard Steele]

24. Patrick Purdy, Colin Ferguson...the list goes on and on.

The post- WWII USA has a RICH TRADITION of "crazed gunmen"
who had:

ZERO reason to shoot anyone,
NO history of violence,
and.....some seriously mysterious circumstances
in the days leading up to their horrendous crimes.

Mr. Ferguson's case especially just pegs the frickin needle
on my "tinfoil-o-meter".

He was sitting quietly on the subway...and just stood up and
starting shooting people at random.
At his trial, he claimed that he was being controlled by implants
that had been placed in his brain when he was in the Army.

And the guns he shot a bunch of random strangers with?

It turns out he had stopped working, flown to California,
(the most DIFFICULT state to legally purchase pistols in),
and lived in a hotel for six weeks, using that as his address
while he waited for his pistol purchases to be approved.
All without EVER accessing his very modest bank account.

Then he flew back to NYC, and shot up a subway car.

The entire operation cost THOUSAND$ of dollars more
than buying the guns illegally right in NYC would have.

Dollars that seem to have come from somewhere OTHER than
Mr. Ferguson's modest personal income earned by repairing
household appliances.

[blm]

7. Some of us saw these characteristics in the DC sniper case. They were found ASLEEP

in a car shortly after the police read a statement that included some odd phrasings that would make no sense to the story.

[defendandprotect]

68. The DC sniper . . . RIGHT!!!

[blm]

110. Kept the electorate and DC area reporters distracted right before 2002 election

didn't it? And SCARED, too, eh?

[Turbineguy]

9. 1952. That would

explain Bush. They just "lost" the records.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

13. This certainly gives credence to the woman who wrote...

This:

http://www.trance-formation.com/

Which has certainly been mocked at length. Even by me. Perhaps now, it is not so mockable.

[southerncrone]

82. Here's another one:

Unshackled: A memoir of Mind Control
http://books.google.com/books?id=HPPX42eCKzEC&dq=unshackled&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=aiGqCuwURg&sig=SwKmBoqEbxF3s3uqaJq5hlS8Ay8#PPP1,M1

Warning: This has some very SICK stuff.

There are also twin women, a woman named Mae (Brewster?), and a guy who have all written books claiming this same horrific stuff being done to them.

[CHIMO]

15. Donald Ewen Cameron

Donald Ewen Cameron (1901-1967) was a Scottish-American psychiatrist. Born in Bridge of Allan, he graduated from the University of Glasgow in 1924.

Cameron lived and worked in Albany, New York, and was involved in experiments in Canada for Project MKULTRA, a United States based CIA-directed "mind control" program.

Cameron was the author of the psychic driving concept which the CIA found particularly interesting. In it he described his theory on correcting madness, which consisted of erasing existing memories and rebuilding the psyche completely. After being recruited by the CIA, he commuted to Montreal every week to work at the Allan Memorial Institute, and was paid $69,000 from 1957 to 1964 to carry out MKULTRA experiments there. The CIA appears to have given him the potentially deadly experiments to carry out, as they would be tried on non-US citizens. However, documents released in 1977 revealed that thousands of unwitting, as well as voluntary subjects were tested on during that time period. These subjects included United States citizens.

In addition to LSD, Cameron also experimented with various paralytic drugs, as well as electroconvulsive therapy at 30 to 40 times the normal power. His "driving" experiments consisted of putting subjects (human beings) into drug-induced coma for months on end (up to three in one case) while playing tape loops of noise or simple repetitive statements. His experiments were typically carried out on patients who had entered the institute for minor problems such as anxiety disorders and post-partum depression, many of whom suffered permanently from his actions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Ewen_Cameron

Montreal woman seeks compensation in '50s brainwashing case
Last Updated: Monday, January 8, 2007 | 4:57 PM ET
CBC News

A Montreal woman is seeking to launch a class-action lawsuit more than 50 years after she says she was subjected to controversial psychiatric treatments funded by the Canadian government and the CIA.

Janine Huard, 78, was a patient at McGill University's Allan Memorial Institute when a doctor there was conducting brainwashing experiments.

Some former patients have been paid compensation by the federal government, and Huard says she should also be paid.

When Huard was in her early thirties, she had her fourth baby, and subsequently suffered from post-partum depression.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/story/2007/01/08/brainwashing-suit.html

Nothing should surprise us anymore.

[smtpgirl]

16. I have belived that the Manchurian Candidate program

has been in use since 1952-present.

I remember a 60 minutes story in the late '60's-early 70's about a black Army soldier that was subjugated to the Manchurian Candidate style of torture.

I remember, that man was driven to tears. He could not remember anything.

That is what sold me on that the GOVT, ALWAYS has things to hide.

Not conspiracy, just facts. People just can't believe the things that the GOVT does behind closed doors.

Kind of like child/animal/elder/sexual abuse to me.

[Purveyor]

20. People just can't believe the things that the GOVT does behind closed doors.

As the saying is said "some people just can believe the truth" and even with this documentation, many still won't.

Further, fewer could except the most probable scenario that the same type programs, with more potent drugs and techiques, are taking place today under the umbrella of "black ops" programs.

[tblue37]

63. "[They] can't handle the truth!" (eom)

[yardwork]

51. That's true, I think. These things don't require extensive "conspiracies."

I think that the term "conspiracy theory" was developed to mock and belittle those who point out inconvenient but true facts.

It doesn't require a lot of people to do these things. Just a few very cruel, conscienceless people to lead a program. The rest - the ordinary people - will go along. The Nazis proved that.

[Horse with no Name]

91. Interesting supposition

Do you think Poppy (as entrenched in the CIA as he was) volunteered his son--who was a drunken, no account cokehead for mind control?
I think I might go to bed with that thought.:scared:

[zabet]

17. Just imagine...

what kind of horrors the CIA and the government have 'experimented with' in the
30+ years since the 'family jewels' info was recorded. I am sure this is just the
tip of a black iceberg.

[hyphenate]

25. Strangelove?

Inaccurate use. Mengele is more relevant.

[seemslikeadream]

27. Anti Conspiracy Ostriches - how do you ignore MKULTRA?

Anti Conspiracy Ostriches - how do you ignore MKULTRA?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1414094


DU MKULTRA thread-let's talk about mind control, factually now.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?

[defendandprotect]

73. JFK WANTED TO TEAR THE CIA INTO LITTLE PIECES .. .

Truman -- who gave us the CIA -- later said that he didn't intend it to be used as it was being used.
Of course, you put something this secret in place and it's going to be used in ways you don't intend.
It should never have happened.

JFK understood this and he was going to end the CIA --
that had a lot to do with the coup on JFK --

[woo me with science]

29. Oh, god, please. Not this garbage again. Calm down, everyone.

This is bad journalism. This story presents two stories and implies that they are associated with each other. The first story is the important dump by the CIA of evidence of misuse of naive subjects in invasive experients. This is an important story and needs to be covered. The second story is the hysterical ravings of a poor woman who recovered memories in therapy and has been convinced that they have something to do with the CIA. This is not news, and the two stories have nothing to do with each other.

The government has experimented with mind control. They have also experimented with drugs on innocent subjects. These activities by the CIA are of grave concern and are immoral and egregious. However, they have nothing to do with claims of multiple personality and recovered memories of abuse. Because this woman had dreams and images come to her in therapy, her repressed memories get put in a story about the CIA? Yes, that is exactly what is happening here, and it is shameful journalism.

This is how conspiracy theories operate. The Believers seize on one fact that is amenable to their story (MKULTRA existed!) and use it as evidence that the entire convoluted fairytale is true. This is also why you see the repressed memory crowd come out every time there is a story of horrific child abuse uncovered by the media. They seize on the story as evidence of their large-scale conspiracies and their repressed memories. Never mind that the actual children who actually endured these horrific abuses will never, never ever be able to forget what they endured.

MKULTRA existed. It was discontinued, because it didn't work. It was experimentation into mind control on adults for the purpose of developing tactics for warfare and defense. It was a failed program and was discontinued, just like "remote viewing" (psychic stuff!) and other failed ventures.

The government also has a history of testing drugs on innocent subjects, another horrible violation of the rights of the people involved. The revelation that they used drugs on children makes the abuses even more egregious. Most likely they were studying effects of drugs on civilian populations for purposes of warfare. It warrants investigation.

However, neither MKULTRA nor the drug experiments have anything to do with this woman's recovered memories of abuse. You can bet money that this woman never even knew she was abused until she went into therapy or joined a recovery group and met other people people involved in recovering repressed "memories" of abuse. Memory recovery is a little hysterical subculture, driven by therapists and social networks. It is very similar to the groups of people who claim to have been abducted by UFO's and share stories of anal probing.

Quack therapists and their gullible patients who were busy recovering "memories" of abuse in the 1980's and 1990's naturally were fascinated by the news that the government had experimented with mind control. The hysterical claims of a nationwide ring of satanic ritual abuse cults were debunked by the FBI. Naturally any whiff of mind control by the government became another fruitful source for recovered "memories" of abuse.

Therapists started helping clients recall being abused by the government in these decades. If you spend any time listening to these people, you will hear spectacular stories of being "programmed" into multiple personalities through abuse. Little children hung upside down for "spin" programming, with electroshocks to their genitals or forced prostitution to government figures. Ridiculous claims of color-coded alter states, personalities who respond to clicks and beeps and are trained to be sex slaves for the government. Very scientific-sounding nonsense. This is just another version, or flavor, of the satanic ritual abuse stories we all remember. Instead of daycares with underground tunnels and clown rapists, or satanic cult rituals where the coven impregnates the 12-year-old and then eats her fetus, the government is the culprit. If you aren't sure you were abused in a satanic cult, maybe you were abused by the Masons, or in MKULTRA, or even at the White House!

People involved in this quack therapy start to see everything as evidence of mind control. If you attend the groups, you will hear them eagerly talking to each other, saying things like, "You made repeated doodlings of stars in your notebooks when you were a child? Oh my god! So did I! It must be a symbol used in mind control programming!" They imagine complex "programming," invent tortured child selves, and believe that they need specialized therapy to help them remember the abuse and "deprogram" their horribly abused sex slave child personalities. These sensational, tearful confessions were a staple of tabloid TV shows like Geraldo Rivera's in the 1980's and 90's. They are also the shows for which Geraldo publicly apologized when he realized that he had been duped into believing a cultural myth promulgated by irresponsible therapy and a salivating media.

The biggest irony of this debacle is that the sick administration we have in the White House right now would probably be DELIGHTED if what these people claim were actually possible. It is NOT possible. Science has no way of systematically torturing children so that they become color-coded sex slaves and mind controlled robots. The stories that get spun in therapy and repeated among groups of "survivors" read like bad, pornographic B horror movies and are just as ridiculous. None of what they describe has anything to do with what is actually possible in behavioral control as it exists now.

This is what happens when garbage pseudoscience replaces science training in graduate and professional schools, and it is what happens when insurance companies get to drive healthcare structure and personnel. They would rather hire totally incompetent woo woo therapists from fly-by-night therapy programs that teach about repressed memories, than graduates of programs that provide a solid education in real science and memory and child development.

The fact that this reporter naively puts this deluded woman's story in the same news story as the CIA document dump means that a thorough, realistic assessment of the abuses committed by the CIA in these programs will not get a realistic hearing in the media. Instead, we will be treated to more garbage and fairy tales again, and the American public stays uninformed. After all, stories about candy-coated sex slaves are SO much more interesting than boring drug experiments.

What a crock.

The women who is making this statement has ZERO evidence that she was programmed into multiple personalities through government mind control sex abuse. She believes her story fervently, though, thanks to the garbage that passes for "mental health care" in this country.

Yes, the CIA was involved in drug experiments that violated the rights of subjects--probably even children. They did experiment with drugs and controlling behavior, and those experiments were immoral. But the leap to multiple personalities, child sex rings, and super-secret advanced spin/color/sex slave "programming" in the minds of multiple personality slaves is complete and utter hogwash. Behavioral control experiments as they exist now (and existed in the 60's and 70's) were most likely quite boring and basic. Can we suggest an action and have the person carry it out against their volition? Nothing like the elaborate, pornographic scenarios that get spun in therapy and breathlessly reported in stories like this. If you believe the stories of all the women in recovered memory therapy who believe they were victims of government mind control, you have to believe that the government flew out to nearly every major city and small town in the United States on a weekly basis in order to systematically torture preschool children (who by the way were also still attending school and taking violin lessons, while nobody noticed they had a secret double life as government child prostitutes!).

What a deluded society we are, that these ludicrous myths persist, and that insurance pays for people to develop them. That people have so little basic science education that they can't see through the woo and the pornography to look for actual CIA abuses. The Geraldo stories are so much more interesting.

This is what happens when pseudoscience replaces genuine science education, and when corporations get to run healthcare. That, and people start to open museums teaching that Noah took dinosaurs with him on the Ark.

[glowing]

39. After the past 6 yrs and knowing how the govt heads think its ok to

torture and have actually legalized it. And knowing that torture of the mind is used too... I think that the CIA didn't just come up with these techniques overnight... I'm sure that they do some f.cked up things. Like I said, after these past 6yrs, I don't put any of these allegations past our govt....

[Chemical Bill]

42. You could be right...

but until you take out the insults, I'll pass on reading your posts. Oh, you might want to back up your assertions with references, that would lend you more credibility.

Bill

[Canuckistanian]

44. You seem to be knowledgeable on this subject

You go on about "quack therapists" and "recovered memories of abuse" without citing any refutation of these events.

It's quite likely that the ultimate effect of MKULTRA produced no real results in terms of actual concrete intelligence actions. We've heard nothing about such "supermen" or "superwomen".

But that they made any progress at all in the 60s is a frightening thought. The actual deeds that were done are scary enough. And I agree, projections beyond this point are speculative at best.

But the work was done in the 60s and 70s, when psychiatric expertise was relatively in it's infancy.

In my mind, there's no doubt that those past results are being pored over by the current kakistocracy and NEW explorations being charted.

I don't see the ultimate goal of this venture to be 'ludicrous' at all.

It's one that we should all be paying attention to.

[seemslikeadream]

49. I wonder where

WoodrowFan is these days?

[Canuckistanian]

65. Don't know him/her

You think it's a re-incarnation?

[seemslikeadream]

117. I found him

after I thought about it a bit I knew exactly where to look :hi:

Thank jah they have a sandbox of their own to play in

[orleans]

155. here's a link to a whole list of stuff on false memories

i remember that phase we went through--all of a sudden everyone in therapy was coming up with all this bizarre shit--i remember a lawsuit from a woman against her father for raping her or something along that line (maybe some satanic cult) and this guy was dumbfounded--and then, it turned out these memories were actually not memories at all.

very weird. (oops. i almost forgot to ad the link)
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22false+memories%22

[yardwork]

55. How do you know that they aren't related?

How do you really know that it is pseudoscience? Of course not every story of abuse is true. Some people are genuinely schizophrenic or otherwise mentally ill, and while they believe that the government is doing things to them, it isn't really true.

However, we have numerous examples of cases where the government really has done - and continues to do - incredibly horrific things. Have you read Seymour Hersh's accounts of the tortures at Abu Ghraib? He is highly credible. He reports having seen videotapes and heard audiotapes. The photos I've seen right here on DU are horrific enough. Their are highly credible first-person accounts by U.S. personnel reporting horrific abuses they witnessed at Guantanamo Bay.

As much as we would like to believe that our government would never do such things, they have. They do.

It's time to start taking a closer look at some of the other reports.

[barb162]

57. That's an outstanding post

Just fucking outstanding. But how do we know if Carol Rutz, this woman in the story , was or wasn't actually a CIA subject of these experiments?

[file83]

131. He doesn't know - and that's the ironic part.

"antfarm" goes on and on about crazy people and lack of evidence while completely ignoring the facts and documentary evidence that HAS BEEN PRESENTED by Carol Rutz and her prosecuting attorneys.

Never mind this ADDITIONAL new information recently released by the CIA that matches EXACTLY what Carol has been stating for years (as well as many other people and their stories).

Some times just keeping your head in the sand becomes too comfortable to leave.

[woo me with science]

149. Thanks. About your question.

All we have is her word. Her story is typical, actually stereotypical, of recovered memory accounts. There is not a shred of real evidence to support her claim that she was tortured by CIA. I challenge the person who responded to you to post any such evidence. There is none. This woman is likely either psychotic or she is involved in the process of recovering memories of abuse. Either is possible, but my money is on the latter, because her story is so stereotypical of this group.

The evidence in cases of recovered memory is typically absent. The problem is significant enough that many researchers studying child abuse now make a point of excluding from their research studies any participants whose childhood abuse was not always remembered. They need to do this in order to prevent contamination of the data by memories of abuse that were created in therapy or in social groups of recovered memory survivors.

A few researchers have done a marvelous job of going back over cases of supposedly documented recovered memories to show how seriously flawed the "evidence" is. They have provided excellent examples of the nonsense that has passed for evidence in these cases. In many of the published cases, for example, it was assumed that because some aspect of the memory actually exists, the whole memory therefore is documented. For example, if a woman recovers a memory of being satanically ritually abused by the coven under a certain tree, and then goes back and shows that the tree actually exists, that is considered evidence that the rest of her story is true. In some studies, the recovered memories of a sibling (who is sometimes in therapy with the same recovered memory therapist!) have been accepted as evidence that the abuse memories of the original sibling are factual. The studies read like a primer in bad logic and misdirection.

Believers have also tried to provide evidence of the validity of recovered memories by pointing to cases in which abuse was documented in childhood and the person subsequently forgot the abuse. However, this line of research is disingenuous, too. For example, there have been studies documenting that some children seen in emergency rooms for abuse later forgot the abuse, and their forgetting has been offered as evidence of "repression." However, these studies were contaminated by including children who were injured before their brains were sufficiently developed to store longterm memories. In other words, we wouldn't expect them to have memories of the abuse in the first place. Not to mention that none of the cases in these sorts of studies even resembled the typical recovered memory case with multiple perpetrators and sadistic abuse throughout childhood.

Overall, the research claiming to provide evidence of recovered memories is a methodological mess. It is so bad that one clinician actually offered a substantial cash reward to anyone who could provide actual, iron-clad documentation of a typical recovered memory case.

Believers don't like to talk about the typical recovered memory case, but it is worth remembering what the typical case involves. The typical case involves a woman who goes into therapy as an adult (or becomes involved in a social group of women recovering memories) with no real previous memories of abuse. She becomes involved in a process of reinterpreting life events in a new way, with herself as victim. She learns that her current distresses are likely evidence of having been irretrievably wounded as a child. She learns that body symptoms, fleeting feelings, dreams, imagery, and states of mind can be interpreted as evidence of the abuse she suffered, and she gradually begins to create memories to explain the distress of her life. Eventually, having been abused becomes the central fact of her existence, and she becomes involved in a process of reinterpreting everything in her life within the framework of her victimhood. She becomes involved in a continuous process of recovering new memories of abuse, new perpetrators, and increasingly horrible and sadistic memories.

By the time she has been involved in this process for a number of years, the typical survivor has identified many (sometimes scores of) different perpetrators and abuse memories, often spanning her entire childhood and involving multiple areas of her life. The longer she is involved, the more bizarre and sadistic the memories tend to get. Believers will often tell you they were abused, but they may not disclose that they actually believe they were impregnated in a satanic coven, or were forced to eat their own fetus, or were raped on alters, or were forced to murder other children, or were buried alive, or were put in snakepits, or were gang-raped by Masons, or served as child prostitutes, or acted in pornographic movies, or underwent mind control, or were abused by 18 people in their neighborhood and 20 different teachers at their school. These memories are shared with sympathetic therapists and other survivors who are recovering their own memories, but many Survivors learn to be cautious about disclosing the details and extent of the abuse to others, because they realize on some level that the stories defy credulity. Many "Survivors" cut off family and friends who begin to question the memories and express concern about the bizarre trajectory of therapy. They make friends instead with other survivors who are also recovering memories.

Nowadays people can become involved in these social networks very easily. There are support groups for survivors in every major city in America, where you can watch the process firsthand. There are also communities of abuse survivors online where, if you hang out long enough, you can observe the process by which new folks arrive and are schooled in the process of developing memories. New folks usually go through a period of doubting their memories and worrying that they are not accurate. They frequently make statements like, "I feel like I'm making it all up," and others leap in to reassure them that everyone feels this way at first. Therapists reassure clients that doubting is normal and is evidence of how confusing and threatening the perpetrators were.

There is an oft-repeated statement by a therapist on the recovered memory problem. She stated that when she ran groups for abuse survivors, the participants invariably sorted themselves into two groups. The first group had always remembered their abuse, and they were interested in moving beyond it and building healthy lives. The second group was comprised of women who were involved in recovering buried memories of abuse. The first group could not endure being in the same room as the second, because they could not tolerate the constant drive to endlessly recover and recount and relive the "memories" of abuse.

That is the most striking aspect of these cases. Believers don't want to talk about the TYPICAL recovered memory case. They want to talk about the fact that there was a terrible case of child abuse on the news last night, because that proves that their recovered memories might be true. Never mind that the child on the news will never, ever forget what was done to her. They want you to focus on the fact that MKULTRA existed, because they are hoping that you will assume that its existence proves their memories. Never mind that the program probably involved boring drug and behavioral studies rather than flying out to small towns across the nation to hang little children upside down, rape and torture them, and try to program them into color-coded multiple personality sex slaves.

The typical recovered memory survivor truly comes to believe that she was severely and sadistically abused, over and over again throughout her childhood, usually by multiple perpetrators, and she never remembered any of it. No one ever noticed what was going on. Oftentimes on the outside, her life looked normal. She went to school, maybe was on the swim team or danced ballet, played in the school band. Her pediatrian never saw evidence of the constant rape and torture. Neither did teachers, friends, neighbors, or babysitters. The typical survivor explains these inconsistencies by discovering that many of these people were involved in the abuse and helped to hide it.

I once sat in a support group of survivors, in which a young woman was in turmoil because she had just slept with her boyfriend for the first time and had bled like a virgin. She was confused and worried that this evidence could mean that all her memories of being raped in a coven could be false, since her boyfriend had broken her hymen. The women in the group reassured her that her bleeding probably meant that she had unusual scarring and injuries inside her vagina from all the abuse she had suffered. You have to be inside this world to realize how bizarre the logic gets. The fact of abuse becomes the center of life, and logic itself is suspended to defend it. That is why researchers who document the malleability of memory get death threats. That is why you see such angry responses anytime someone posts about the recovered memory problem. You are questioning someone's narrative of their life--their victimhood. It is terribly sad.

This is important: The CIA has not acknowledged doing the things this woman claims. They have acknowledged that that they administered mind-altering drugs to subjects. They absolutely have not acknowledged a program of repeatedly raping and torturing little girls across the country in order to turn them into multiple personalities and sex slaves. You can see downthread that another request for someone to produce evidence that the CIA admitted to what this woman claims also resulted in silence and the sound of crickets. The CIA has acknowledged no such thing. The recovered memory defenders and conspiracy theorists are hoping that you will make that assumption, but there is no evidence to support it.

[orleans]

156. great job explaining this!

i don't know about the cia--but i remember all the fuss that was made over these false memories. it was all so bizarre

[smtpgirl]

58. Mind Control & Drug Trafficking

The CIA, FBI, US Govt., US Military------------all have a stake in this---Just look at timelines, won't go to the obvious Gulf War

Opium production increases: & the US is not on this???

Afghanistan produced dramatically more opium in 2006, increasing its yield by roughly 49 percent from a year earlier and pushing global opium production to a new record high, a U.N. report said Tuesday.

Opium Connection Afghanistan - US
(web posted 3 Dec '01)
Summary of this page:
The Bush Administration gave the Taliban $43 million in May of this year for their destruction of Afghan opium crops in February. Drugs and terrorism go hand in hand. Afghanistan had been the world's largest producer of opium/heroin, claiming close to 70% of the world's total production. The amount of drug cash flowing into Wall Street and U.S. banks was estimated to be around $250-$300 billion a year. The history of the drug trade in Central Asia is intimately related to the CIA's covert operations. The U.S., directly or indirectly, helped to fund the WTC attacks. George Bush, Sr. was in charge of all U.S. intelligence and narcotics operations from 1981 through 1989. It was Bush (the elder) who directly nourished and nurtured bin Laden's evolution.


& The US was not on this?

Manuel Antonio Noriega Moreno (born February 11, 1938) was a Panamanian general and the de facto military dictator of Panama from 1983 to 1989, despite never being the official President of Panama. He was initially a strong ally of the United States and worked for the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) from the late 1950s to 1986.<1> By the late 1980s, relations had turned extremely tense between Noriega and the United States government, and in 1989 the general was overthrown and captured in the United States invasion of Panama. He was taken to the United States, and convicted under federal charges of cocaine trafficking, racketeering, and money laundering. He remains imprisoned in a federal prison in Miami, Florida, where his daughters and his grandchildren frequently visit. In December 2004, he was briefly hospitalized after suffering a minor stroke. VOA reports Frank Rubino, Noriega's attorney, has said Noriega is due to be released from prison on September 9, 2007.


& The US Was not on this?

The Iran-Contra Affair was a political scandal in the United States in 1987. Large volumes of documents relating to the scandal were destroyed or withheld from investigators by Reagan Administration officials. The affair is still shrouded in secrecy. It involved several members of the Reagan Administration who in 1986 helped to illegally sell arms to Iran, an avowed enemy, and used the proceeds to fund, also illegally, the Contras, a right-wing insurgent organization in Nicaragua.

After the arms sales were revealed in November 1986, President Ronald Reagan appeared on national television and denied that they had occurred.<4> A week later, however, on November 13, Reagan returned to the airwaves to affirm that weapons were indeed transferred to Iran. He denied that they were part of an exchange for hostages.


& the US was not involved in this???

Able Danger Intel Exposed
"Protected" Heroin Trafficking
August 17,2005-Venice, FL.
by Daniel Hopsicker

Mohamed Atta was protected from official scrutiny as part of an officially-protected cocaine and heroin trafficking network with ties to top political figures, including Republican officials Jeb Bush and Katherine Harris, and it was this fact—and not the “terrible lapses” of “weak on terror” Clinton Administration officials cited by Republican Congressman Curt Weldon—which shielded him from being apprehended before the 9.11 attack.

[melody]

88. You are throwing around a lot of interpretations not being made by people on the thread

The core information is true.

"Conspiracies" happen all the time -- anytime two people get together to plot something, it's a conspiracy.
To call something "conspiracy theory" and suggest that, therefore, it doesn't exist is extrapolating beyond
the available data.

That said, I don't bother debating this stuff on boards any longer -- with so-called skeptics or the more
woolly true-believers, so this will be my last post on this.

[L. Coyote]

94. U: "MKULTRA existed. It was discontinued, because it didn't work. "

"because it didn't work" is a sweeping conclusion that is insupportable. MKULTRA had a variety of objectives, in that mind control can be deployed in numerous ways. Some of those black bag methods work very well.

Also, while this thread is certainly no exemplary study in ingenious use of logic, your post isn't either. I find your post to be in the same genre, guilty of the same abuse of facts as those you accuse. While most of what you say is valid, you also take liberties in how you combine it.

And, you whitewash the history. You say, "Behavioral control experiments as they exist now (and existed in the 60's and 70's) were most likely quite boring and basic." Tell that to the participants who were dosed without consent or knowledge!

One objective of the intelligence community is to keep trade craft secret. This is especially important for certain methods, since revelations can impact effectiveness. If someone is being drugged to make them believe they are mentally ill, it works best if they and their attending physicians do not know about the drugging. Likewise for interrogations, the drugging technique is effective without that insight.

There are a lot more players out there than CIA. Even corporations might deploy black bag methods, or individuals who know of them.

There is also a lot of propaganda out there. One genre is to place credible information in a story with a pile of crap, effectively associating the credible with the non-credible or incredulous. "This is bad journalism" as you say, might be false if the journalism has a propaganda objective. Then it is very good and effective journalism if judged by its purpose. Not that I'll waste my time reading it. I've lost enough time just reading this terrible thread.

[Joe Chi Minh]

99. "MKULTRA existed. It was discontinued, because it didn't work."

I think you are a little naive in one regard, i.e. your excessive reliance on deductive reasoning, at the expense of "first principles", inductive reasoning; in this context, plain common sense.

Monsters like Mengele and the "masterminds" behind these kinds of experiments are not people driven by a burning, messianic passion for the truth, whether scientific or otherwise. They are sadists, who have found an unbelievably felicitous niche in which to satisfy their satanic urges.

[MilesColtrane]

103. Oh no, they got to you too!

:D

Try removing your fillings with pliers and wrapping your head with a wet towel. Then you'll see that the conspiracy is EVERYWHERE.

[woo me with science]

150. LOL

Thanks for pulling me back. Those rapes in the snakepit can really mess with your concentration.

[DerBeppo]

152. If I could buy you a beer and pat you on the back, I would. -nt-

[soothsayer]

32. Montauk. Weird gov't stuff. the monarch butterfly is a big trigger (msn logo?)

[JohnyCanuck]

34. This is what the crazy CIA mindfuckers were working towards:

"We need a program of psychosurgery and political control of our society. The purpose is physical control of the mind. Everyone who deviates from the given norm can be surgically mutilated.

"The individual may think that the most important reality is his own existence, but this is only his personal point of view. This lacks historical perspective.

"Man does not have the right to develop his own mind. This kind of liberal orientation has great appeal. We must electrically control the brain. Some day armies and generals will be controlled by electrical stimulation of the brain."

Dr. Jose Delgado (MKULTRA experimenter who demonstrated a radio-controlled bull on CNN in 1985)
Director of Neuropsychiatry, Yale University Medical School
Congressional Record No. 26, Vol. 118, February 24, 1974

Found above quote in the article Brainwashing America by Norman Livergood.

[Divine Discontent]

36. he needs about 100 electric shock therapies, fascist bastards n/t

[yardwork]

59. Notice his credentials - Director of Neuropsychiatry, Yale University Medical School

And notice that 11 years after this incredible statement was documented in the Congressional Record, he demonstrated a radio-controlled bull. And notice that CNN televised it.

[Joe Chi Minh]

100. It is, I believe, always ultimately the elites who torture and murder "for

their country".

The KGB was actually the Russian elite, as was the Argentinian navy, which kindly lent its college premises and some of its personnel for the junta's torturing of their political opponents. Hitler's most ardent supporters were Germany's doctors and lawyers;
in Oxford, the late historian A J P Taylor, (delightfully dubbed left-wing!) wrote that when Thatcher's "Mr Law and Order", Hailsham, at that time, Quintin Hogg, was campaigning as the Tory candidate for Oxford, his slogan was, "A vote for Hogg is a vote for Hitler!". And he won.... Nuff said...?

[Ghost Dog]

137. Hmm. Perhaps it's time to re-read Tom Wolfe's

"I Am Charlotte Simmons" in that case.

I refer to eg. from this review/essay:

...In an earlier lecture on José Delgado’s Physical Control of the Mind, the professor states that there is no free will, purpose, or intention in human action. To illustrate the point, Dr. Starling shows a film of a bullfight. The bull, having been stabbed with several picadors, is enraged and charges the matador. “In this case,” says the professor, “Delgado has implanted an electrode in the bull’s caudate nucleus, which is just under the amygdala. As you can see, the bull is charging full tilt. When it came close enough to make it interesting, Delgado pressed a button on the little radio transmitter in his hand, and the bull’s aggressiveness vanished.” What do we learn from this famous experiment? According to the professor:

The instantaneous lesson was that an emotion as powerful as a raging urge to kill can be turned off ... by stimulating a particular area of the brain. The more profound lesson was that not only emotions but also purpose and intentions are physical matters. They can be turned on and off physically.... The philosophical implications were enormous, and he recognized that right away. His position was that the human mind, as we conceive it—and I think all of us do—bears very little resemblance to reality. We think of the mind—we can’t help but think of the mind—as something from a command center in the brain, which we can call the ‘self,’ and that this self has free will. Delgado called that a ‘useful illusion.’ ... He called the self nothing more than a ‘transient composite of materials from the environment.’ ... After Delgado, neuroscientists began to put the words self and mind and, of course, soul in quotation marks.... We’ll show you the real thing, the material of your own brains and central nervous systems, the autonomous circuits that operate outside of what you conceive as ‘consciousness,’ the behavioral responses you couldn’t change even if you trained for a lifetime.

The task of neuroscience is to understand human behavior as it really is, without illusions. This new way of seeing the mechanisms of man confirms that the soul does not really exist and that our behavior is simply a physical reaction to stimuli over which we have no control. Human beings think they have free will and that their choices have meaning. But this is one of the comforting myths of the past that neuroscience is proud to overcome. As Dr. Starling explains, this time with a thought experiment borrowed from a fellow neuroscientist:

Let’s say you pick up a rock and you throw it. And in mid-flight you give that rock consciousness and a rational mind. That little rock will think it has free will and will give you a highly rational account of why it has decided to take the route it’s taking.

In other words: Human beings are simply rocks. Neuroscientists are rocks who know they are rocks. Human beings are bodies in motion, bodies that falsely believe they have free will. But neuroscience, armed with tools like fMRIs and PET scans, promises a true description of human behavior, a final lifting of man’s religious and moral illusions. And that life without illusions may amount to nothing more than the joyless quest for joy or the soulless interactions of the soulless. The consequences of this shift in human self-understanding are enormous...

In Wolfe's novel, Charlotte Simmons, portrayed initially as a girl with great intellectual possibilities but a social nobody on campus, somehow (after feeling inspired by this and other lectures in neuroscience, and after mixing with a bunch of 'Young Turks' from the 'priviliged elite') gets transformed into a class-skipping basketball hunk's girlfriend and apparently mindless social celebrity.

[Purveyor]

35. Helms ordered much of the documentation to be destroyed....

The programs, though carefully hidden, continued into the 1970s - when Helms ordered much of the documentation to be destroyed.

Much, much more behind this story that will never be documented, just don't discount out of hand what is said by the people that were 'there at the time'.

[Blackbird_Highway]

38. Crazy, but then there's Northwoods

I thought all this stuff was bat-shit crazy talk, but then I read the Northwoods docs.

Operation Northwoods

Now it is all sadly very believable. Might have to vote for Ron Paul. Don't like him at all, but at least he wants to abolish the CIA, which is what we really need. Why don't some of the other candidates jump on that bandwagon?

[otherlander]

132. Why don't people publicly declare

that they want to abolish an organization that hires Nazi war criminals, overthrows governments, drugs people against their will, kidnaps and tortures people for trying to defend democracy against corporate interests, and orchestrates assassinations and disappearances, operating with very little oversight or accountability?

Maybe they like living too much.

[slowry]

43. I'm guessing there's nothing about MKNAOMI... n/t

[Monk06]

46. What do you mean there's no such place as Shell Beach and

how could I have sex with Jennifer Connelly and
not remember it?

[Rosa Luxemburg]

53. So we can put our tinfoil hats away at last?

is this the truth?

[Point-X]

54. CIA Terrorists and the BS they pull

There is an old book that will be hard to find, "Tranceformation of America".

There was a girl the CIA held as a slave for ever and it goes into detail how GWB's daddy and others used her for a play toy and mind experiments. This revelation by the CIA gives that book credibility now.

Read it..

[momzno1]

112. not hard to find

on amazon right now. Just ordered it. $19.00

[barb162]

56. That is TERRIBLE!!!

What the hell was wrong with that kid's grandfather? Why dod he allow it to continue?

[southerncrone]

83. Paid hansomely.

[Occulus]

85. It takes a truly cold, black heart to be willing to be "paid handsomely"

for something like this.

It's like me paying someone to experiment on my niece.

I'd punch the person who asked.

[southerncrone]

86. Won't argue that. But haven't you noticed...

the world if full of cold, black-hearted scum. Even worse, there are those who actually enjoy torture, both inflicting it & watching it. We've heard alot about that here of late in our very own govt.

[Rude Horner]

60. Why is the source of this article "The Australian"?

Is this story going to be picked up by anybody here in the States? :shrug:

Oh, what the fuck am I thinking? That would imply that we have a media over here that actually gives a shit about something other than Paris Hilton and Jon Benet Ramsey.

[RedSock]

66. so when 2045 rolls around, what will the cia admit to doing back in 2001? eom

[defendandprotect]

72. But, they wouldn't do 9/11 -- ????

[file83]

133. Why of course not! That would be unthinkable.

:sarcasm:

[Marie26]

76. What an irresponsible story

The reporter is actually combining 2 totally different claims as if they came from the same place. The CIA release admits giving personality-altering drugs to subjects. They do not admit to enslaving children, post-hypnotic suggestion, Manchurian candidates, etc. All those claims come from one woman - Carol Lutz.

This is real, from the CIA release:

EASILY lost, on page 425, in the mass of the CIA's notorious "Family Jewels" files is a short paragraph outlining "potentially embarrassing Agency activities".

"Experiments in influencing human behaviour through the administration of mind- or personality-altering drugs to unwitting subjects."

The rest is simply unverified, possibly delusional claims by one person. It's totally irresponsible for the reporter to create the impression that the CIA release itself acknowledges these kinds of atrocities. The accusations are so over-the-top & unlikely that it sounds more like the "repressed memories" & "ritualistic abuse" claims that were mostly debunked.

[fooj]

87. Actually, it's NOT over the top. It's part of Congressional Record.

What's irresponsible is refusing to see what is directly in front of you.

[Marie26]

90. What's in the Congressional Record?

Link? I've quoted the one part of this story that is actually part of the CIA's release. The rest of it - enslavement, hypnosis, manchurian candidates, are all just the old claims of one person. This person may well be mentally ill or unreliable. Claims of CIA mind control are one of the classic delusions of schizophrenics.

[soothsayer]

96. maybe that;s where those claims originate

[Marie26]

119. Maybe

And maybe aliens really are secretly abducting people, so that's where that hallucination comes from? The fact is, claims of mind control & CIA conspiracies are a staple delusion of paranoid schizophrenics. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. If the CIA really is doing everything Lutz says, I'd like to hear more evidence than just the claims of one person.

[intheflow]

121. But isn't it odd that so many people have the same delusion?

I know people who are paranoid to varying degrees, but their paranoia is tied to their real-world activities, and are all different paranoias. While I don't know anyone personally who I would call certifiably delusional, it seems odd to me that so many people would share a delusion. I'm not trained in psychology, but it seems to me that mental illness is a very personal, individual development, often triggered by real world events. So having a "staple delusion of paranoid schizophrenics" seems very odd in and of itself.

I'm not saying I buy into this story entirely, but I have been called a conspiracy theorist enough times for holding beliefs that seem outlandish but prove true years later that I'm hesitant to dismiss any story of government activity completely out of hand.

[Marie26]

145. Not always

The CIA mind control thing is a staple delusion because it explains the voices, & odd hallucinations that no one else experiences. It might be meaningful that a number of people have the same story, but the problem is, there's been other examples of a group of people coming up w/odd, off-the-wall abuse allegations that were later totally debunked. This story sounds a little like the "Satanic ritual abuse" allegations & alien abduction stories that were so common a few years ago. Supposed survivors formed support groups & everything until the allegations were later debunked. It's almost like a kind of mass hysteria. So, maybe this stuff is true, but I'd need to see some actual documentary evidence to believe it.

[peacetalksforall]

79. Always remember how hypocritical they were - especially those playing around in the 60's

and 70's. My how they must have hated it. Making fun of hippies, stealing all their ideas, resurrecting ideas borrowed from hippie predecessors, and using tax payer money to 'further their experiments' - whether drugs, meditation, mental communication, astral projection. They sneared then experimented.

Just remember - people acting as our leaders stole some of our minds and some stole our votes and our trust has been decimated with each passing day. We were a bunch of fools and they ran and are running all over us. Righteous fools calling the shots.

But, we can still wake up, stay awake, and wake others.

People are finally getting smarter about our leaders.

Blessed be the children for they shall inherit the earth.

[bbgrunt]

80. and people can'[t imagine that their own government would perpetrate something like 9-11.

[Joe Chi Minh]

101. Now you'll upset some of this thread's disdainful critics... Have you no shame?!

[Feron]

151. I can imagine it, but..

the people who claim the government was involved with 9/11 fail to support their claim with facts and evidence. All I get is speculation, bad science, emotional appeal, and woo. In lieu of hard evidence to the contrary, the official story stands.

The CIA fucking around with people's heads is widely known and deplorable. And it wouldn't be shocking to discover it continuing on today. I didn't know that Ted Kaczynski was a subject and it's quite possible there is more going on than what was reported. Or that his time as a subject contributed to or caused his mental illness.

[Joanne98]

102. That was the old days. Now they're experimenting with EM weapons.

http://www.mindjustice.org/binhi.htm#general
Electromagnetic weapons
Anything using EM fields or radiation to damage or destroy including damage of normal psychic or social processes can be referred to as an electromagnetic weapon.

Among such weapons are known laser and microwave weapons as a part of the Strategic Defense Initiative (1983). Reviews on EM weapons may be found in many sources, for example (Liebig and others, 1988). Another known type of powerful EM radiators, which might be used as weapons (Falmer, 1995), is related to the project HAARP, or High Frequency Active Auroral Research Program (1993). It is the project aimed to control ionospheric processes that might alter the performance of communication and surveillance systems (Gordon, 1997). Located in the remote country of Alaska, HAARP antennas, 180 pieces in all, are organized in a so called phase array antenna, which can focus EM power, a few megawatts in the given case, in a relatively small volume of the terrestrial ionosphere and temporarily modify its physical properties. Possible influences on the biosphere are widely debated.

A relatively recent concept of non-lethal weapons is aimed at minimizing civilian casualties (Giri, 2004, Kiss, 2005). These are weapons not intended to kill or to cause great bodily injury to a living target.

Electromagnetic non-lethal weapons use EM radiations to cause pain, fear, or similar reactions in personnel, to influence the perceptions and attitudes of individuals and groups, which finally could destroy military operations. Such technologies are now considered to be useful also in civilian operations to suppress illegal marches and strikes. Apparently, most commonly known are microwave guns, which produce pain from sudden heating of the skin of humans it is directed on. Current knowledge of biological effects from short microwave pulses is very limited; underlying biophysical mechanisms are not identified. However, available results of military funded studies, e.g. (Pakhomov et al., 2003), on the effect on neuronal functions in rat brain slices are consistent with the concept of heating of the tissue and provide no indication of any specific effects.

EM heating is the only type of EM biological effects, so called EM thermal effects, that are recognized by most of the scientific community. There are also less known non-thermal EM biological effects. In these effects, EM fields and radiations do not appreciably heat tissues; however they carry information which is assimilated at a biophysical/biochemical level and leads to a biological endpoint. It is these effects that constitute a potential scientific ground for mind control. Therefore, also discussed in literature is a possible use of EM microwaves or RF facilities at low powers that cannot produce perceivable reactions like a pain or fear, but nonetheless directly affect the cognitive aspects of an individual. Externally applied EM fields are thought to be capable of implanting information in an individual’s brain.

Because an EM exposure can be carried out secretly, such facilities are often associated with a special type of electromagnetic weapons by which secret groups or institutions might control minds of people. Some conspiracy theories are known to be based on the existence of such EM facilities. There is a general term for these in Russia: “psychotronic weapons”. In the most extreme cases, according to conspiracy theorists, even simple innocuous laboratory EM generators became psychotronic generators that could bring people in a changed state of mind, driven by a malefactor. However, sometimes, it is actually hard to distinguish truth from falsehood or error.

One more aspect of EM mind control is worth mentioning. The fact is that EM mind control as a method of mind reading, let alone mind intrusion, may not be accessible to all levels of people. If in use by everyone, mind reading would quickly destabilize the society. Knowing precisely what an individual is thinking would allow complete power over their personality. This means that EM mind control is a sort of “absolute weapon” that will ever be represented either by the unique ability of some esoterics or by extremely secret engineering achievements and technological breakthroughs. In addition to this problem, relating to the society’s viability, a variety of ethical implications to the issue of mind control have been considered in (Moreno, 2006). We can see that science, as a method for knowledge-mining, together with moral and ethics are intricately intertwined with each other thus securing global society’s stability and development.
http://www.mindjustice.org/binhi.htm#general

[Joe Chi Minh]

105. .. and depleted uranium. Oh, they're done with that now. It was just what they wanted, apparently.

[SKKY]

104. Wow! So you mean there really might be some hot-ass freak...

...like "Max" from Dark Angel running around! A man can only hope!

[liberal N proud]

107. I hope Carol Rutz grandfather is rotting in hell

Selling his granddaughter like that, OMG!

On second thought Hell is too good for people like this they and all the members of the bu$h regime should have some place special they spend eternity tortured as they have tortured others.

[formercia]

114. A victim in her own words

I know this person well. Unfortunately she lives too far from me to get together as often as I would lie to talk shop and compare notes. She too was a victim of the CIA's habit to destroy first and ask questions later.

http://barbarahartwell.blogspot.com/

[bahrbearian]

116. How old was Junior when Poppy sold him?

[blm]

118. CIA rejected his brain as unresponsive, so they groomed him for presidency, instead.

.

[intheflow]

122. Under Cheney's control.

[JohnyCanuck]

120. CIA brainwashing victims seek Canada court action

CIA brainwashing victims seek Canada court action

By James Stairs Jan 19, 2007, 16:17 GMT

SNIP

Lawyers for Janine Huard, a 78-year-old great-grandmother, told a Montreal court last week that their client suffered for years as a result of Dr. Ewan Cameron's experiments at the Allan Memorial Institute, a psychiatric hospital based at Montreal's McGill University.

The experiments were part of a controversial secret CIA programme, aimed at uncovering techniques of mind control and led by Cameron, who died in 1967.

SNIP

The court heard that Huard and hundreds of others were test subjects for Cameron's 'de-patterning' experiments, which included the repeated playing of recorded messages while patients lay in a drug-induced semi-comatose state.

Huard said that she underwent electro-shock treatments and was administered dozens of unknown pills a day, keeping her semi- conscious.

'She never knew that she was being subjected to these experiments or that she was being used by Dr. Cameron and his staff as a guinea pig,' Alan Stein, Huard's lawyer told the court.

The aftermath of the tests, she said, left her unable to function normally, afflicted by memory loss, depression and by migraine headaches.

http://news.monstersandcritics.com/americas/features/article_1248781.php/CIA_brainwashing_victims_seek_Canada_court_action

Skeletons in the Closet: Part 1

The air is electric, charged with the screams that echo from behind the off-white security doors. As the attendants guide you to the lift, your feet dragging smoothly across the waxed linoleum floor, a searing pain fills your head to remind you of the high voltage shock that was pumped through your brain only minutes before. Your mind starts to spin as your body starts to fall. You grab hopelessly at the air, but there is not a single sharp surface to cling on to, the smooth walls just seem to go on forever.

The d-lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD), delivered direct from the Sandoz Pharmaceutical Company in Switzerland, is starting to worm it's way through every crevasse in your mind and body. Slowly, menacingly, you get the feeling that this trip to the basement laboratory may be the one that finally sends you on the one-way trip to oblivion. The intensive electroshock treatment has shattered not only your mind, but also your will to fight. After wearing a football helmet around the sleep room for the last 22 hours, with only that single monotonous phrase that you don't even remember saying playing endlessly, over and over again, tearing at your mind, you don't care anymore anyway. Maybe going crazy would free you. After all, what could be worse than what you've already been through. The doctor keeps telling you it's the only way to get better. If only you could believe him. The only thing you believe in now is pain. This was to become a regular day for patients at the Allan Memorial Institute in Montreal, Canada, during the CIA funded search to find a technique for breaking, reprogramming, and ultimately, controlling the human mind. Another day of torturing innocent victims in an attempt to find, and perfect, a reliable brainwashing technique.

THE SUFFERING BEGINS

The grim story began on July 20, 1950, when the Director of the Central Intelligence Agency, Roscoe Hillenkoetter, wrote an open cheque for Project 'Bluebird', the Agency's first full-scale behaviour control programme. The operation's first task, to interrogate four Japanese workers under the employ of U.S. Army Intelligence, who were suspected of having links to the Russians. None would admit to being double agents, so they were injected with alternating does of sodium amytal and benzedrine, downers, followed by uppers, just to see if it would help them to change their minds.

After several episodes of experimentation with drugs to try and "loosen" the minds of North Korean prisoners of war, it was decided that the addition of electro-shock treatment might make the interrogation process more successful. The Agency's Office of Technical Services Staff (TSS) were chosen to conduct further experimentation with the deadly combination. TSS were responsible for producing the "James Bond" issue equipment, such as exploding coins, fountain pens that could fire bullets, and undetectable poisons.

This new phase of mind control research would be placed under TSS control because it was decided they would have no reservations about testing radical new ideas on unsuspecting subjects. The new CIA director Allen Dulles specifically requested that any doctors or scientists who were to be recruited for the operation must be "completely co-operative in any phase of our programme regardless of how revolutionary it may be." The Project was renamed Operation Artichoke and another step was taken into darkness.

http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/pro-freedom.co.uk/skeletons.html

[Acadia Blue]

123. But we are supposed to be the good guys?????

[EVDebs]

124. Was Jonestown a CIA mind control experiment gone bad ?

http://www.whale.to/b/jonestown.html

There's surely enough in Jim Jones's background to lend credence to that hypothesis.

[Auntie Bush]

136. Is that what they did to get so many bush lovers & Rethuglicans?

Something evil had to be done to anyone who still loves bush and think he's doing a good job...or else they're just plain crazy. So horrors, 28% of our populous has been brainwashed! Scary!

[EVDebs]

139. This 28% or so fits the Milgram Experiment's hypothesis

A top FBI official reportedly justified spying on these groups (Quakers, Catholic Worker-Dorothy Day's group, PETA) by saying that environmental and animal rights groups, not Al Qaida, "posed the biggest terrorist threats in the United States." (New York Times, 12/20/05)

So, we already know there is no intelligence in our intelligence community. So what's new ?

The Milgram Experiment says around 30% of our fellow citizens would shock us unto death if a proper authority figure - or seemingly proper authority figure-- gave the word.

[Blue_Tires]

140. kick

[LibertyorDeath]

141. Where's Octafish

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3312956&mesg_id=3322689

Wouldyabelieve? CIA Experiments with Mind Control on Children Updated at 9:26 AM

Can you believe this stuff? Most can't. That doesn't mean it isn't true, unfortunately for the children and this country.

CIA Experiments with Mind Control on Children

CIA Experiments with Mind Control on Children

by Jon Rappoport

EXCERPT...

In experimental test situations, people were given acid without their knowledge, then interrogated under bright lights with doctors sitting in the background taking notes. Threats would be made. The test subjects were told that their LSD "downer trips" would be extended indefinitely if they refused to reveal their closely-guarded military secrets. The people being interrogated in this way were CIA employees, U.S. military personnel and, abroad, agents suspected of working for the other side in the Cold War. Long-term severe debilitation and several documented deaths resulted. Much, much more could be said about MK-ULTRA.

None of this prepared people for the explosive testimony made on March 15, 1995, in Washington, D.C., before the President's Committee on Radiation, however. In unpublicized sessions, New Orleans therapist Valerie Wolf introduced two of her patients who had uncovered memories of being part of extensive CIA brainwashing programs as young children (in one case, starting at age seven). Their brainwashing included torture, rape, electroshock, powerful drugs, hypnosis and death threats. According to their testimony, the CIA then induced amnesia to prevent their recalling these terrifying sessions.

SNIP...

Although the committee was mainly concerned with radiation, they permitted Valerie and her patients to testify because, astonishingly, several doctors who had administered the mind- control experiments had also been identified by other Americans secretly exposed to radiation. Apparently there was a crossover.

Prominent names surfaced in the March 15 testimony: Richard Helms, former head of the CIA, Dr. Sidney Gottlieb, who ran MK- ULTRA and Dr. John Gittinger, Gottlieb's protege. These men and others were directly accused of participating in grisly mind- control efforts on children.

Predictably, this testimony received no media attention.

CONTINUED...

http://www.totse.com/en/conspiracy/mind_control/161916....

PS: Thanks, Wilms! Much obliged...

[Buns_of_Fire]

142. "The woods are lovely, dark, and deep

But I have promises to keep
And miles to go before I sleep

Miles to go before you sleep, Dubya..."

Telefon, 1977

[nolabels]

143. And to all the anti-tinfoilers.........

:shrug:

[mitchum]

144. Possibly McVeigh, also?