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CrisisPapers Donating Member (271 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 09:41 AM
Original message
Hillary Clinton: The GOP's Favorite Democrat
| Ernest Partridge |

Officials at Rupert Murdoch's News Corporation have contributed to Hillary Clinton's campaign, and Murdoch himself has held fund-raisers in her behalf. Lawyers at Kenneth Starr's law firm, Kirkland and Ellis, have donated more to Clinton than they have to all of the Republican candidates combined. In addition, Bloomberg.com reports that "Large US (law) firms ... are giving thousands more to Democratic hopefuls than Republicans. Top Wall Street investment banks and hedge funds are also giving more to Democrats." We can assume that most of these donations are going to the front-runners, Clinton and Obama. And finally, Hillary Clinton's appearance last week at the Yearly Kos, was cut short by her appearance at a fund-raiser at the estate of billionaire, Ron Perlman.

Hillary Clinton appears to be the favorite Democrat of Republican haves and have-mores.

Why is this so?

The oxymoronic "conventional wisdom" in the mainstream media would have us believe that these Republicans, assuming a near-inevitable Democratic victory in 2008, are backing the most likely, and, to them, the most tolerable, Democratic candidate.

I have a different take on it. The Republicans, far from conceding the next election, believe that they may have a plausible shot at winning. But to do so, the Democrats must nominate the weakest and most vulnerable candidate.

And Hillary is the one. How so?

There are many compelling reasons why the front-running Democratic hopeful is also the most vulnerable.
  • Most significantly, among the general voting population Hillary Clinton has the highest disapproval ratings of all the Democratic candidates - in fact, according to a June Mason-Dixon poll, she is the only candidate of either party of whom a majority (52%) have said that they would not consider voting. In addition, 42% reported an unfavorable opinion of Clinton, compared to 39% favorable; the only candidate with a net negative rating. These are devastating statistics which are unlikely to change significantly, since the public is by now well acquainted with Clinton. One would assume that such statistics would disqualify a candidate. However, the establishment Democrats who support Hillary are unperturbed.

  • Next, "the woman thing." Though the mainstream media has scrupulously avoided the topic, the fact that Clinton is the first woman in US history likely to be the presidential nominee of a major party must be a serious obstacle to her election. This is regrettable, and I sincerely wish that it were not so. But there it is, and the Democratic party will ignore this reality at its peril. And if Clinton selects Barack Hussein Obama as her running-mate, with the first black candidate on a national ticket the "blue" populist resurgence in the South will be stopped in its tracks and the Democrats will lose every electoral vote in the South. Jim Crow, while muted, still lives. Also regrettable, but true.

  • If Clinton were to be elected and serve two full terms, at the end of her administration in 2016, two families would then have occupied the White House for twenty-eight years. Many Americans are extremely put-off by the very idea of dynasties and royal families. I know that I am. Millions of voters, I suspect, would go to the polls in November, 2008 with this thought foremost on their minds: "this dynasty business must end, and end now."

  • Hillary Clinton is widely perceived to be a political "weathervane" who adapts her positions and talking points to shifts in public opinion. Most of the public has had quite enough of "focus-group politics," and yearns for a politician who acts and speaks clearly with conviction and on principle. In the eighties, voters would say of Ronald Reagan, "I may disagree with him, but I know where he stands." And then they would vote for him. Pop quiz: state in twenty-five words or less, the guiding principles of Clinton's politics. See what I mean? The failure of the Democratic Congress to exhibit courage and clarity of its convictions, and its unwillingness to act decisively has resulted in its dismal public approval ratings - lower, even than those of George Bush. The public will not look kindly upon similar behavior by the Democratic presidential candidate.

  • Clinton and her managers apparently believe that the winning votes are to be found in a presumed "center" between establishment (e.g., Congressional) Democrats and the Republicans. Thus they have swallowed the kool-aid served up by the GOP-lite Democratic Leadership Council and the beltway pundits. In fact, as poll after poll testifies, overwhelming public opinion concerning Iraq, the "war on terror," the rule of law, economic justice, health care, minimum wage, public education, government regulation of commerce, environmental protection, campaign finance reform, etc. is "outside" and to the left of both parties. The failure of the "official" Democrats to recognize the public mind, accounts in large part for the public contempt for the Democratic Congress.

  • While the mainstream media and the Republicans have been uncommonly gentle with Clinton - one might say suspiciously gentle - when the conventions are over and the campaign begins, the GOP and the media attacks will be brutal. And Clinton will be an especially vulnerable target. As we well know by now, GOP campaign themes have no necessary grounding in fact - witness Al Gore and "inventing the internet," and John Kerry's encounter with the "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth." Hillary Clinton can be expected to be overwhelmed by a barrage of malicious rumors and innuendos.
While Hillary Clinton is clearly not the people's choice (cf. The Mason-Dixon poll above), she is most assuredly the media's choice. Democratic candidates such as Dennis Kucinich and Bill Richardson, whose views on Iraq, economic justice, and health care most closely coincide with public opinion, are relegated to "the second tier" - not serious contenders. And who decides this allocation? Not the public - there have been no primaries yet. Of course, the media decides. Early poll numbers largely reflect "name recognition." And the media repeatedly prints and broadcasts the names that are "recognized."

It is clear today that Hillary Clinton has been pre-selected by the media as the Democratic nominee, with Barack Obama and John Edwards as the runners-up. As The Independent of the UK reports, "the nomination as matters stand is Ms Clinton's to lose." If, in fact, Clinton is the weakest and most vulnerable of the Democratic candidates, the mainstream media has once again served the GOP well.

As David Swanson correctly observes, "there is a pattern well established in this country of the corporate media working very hard to nominate Democrats destined to lose." We saw this "pattern" at work in 1972, when the most formidable Democratic candidate, Maine Senator Edmund Muskie, was sandbagged by a phony letter attacking Muskie and his wife. While the letter originated with GOP dirty-trickster, Donald Segretti, the media inflated Muskie's emotional response to it, fatally damaging Muskie's candidacy. The GOP and its media allies then worked behind the scenes to promote Senator George McGovern, a WW-II war hero who was defamed as a weak-willed "peacenik." In the 1972 election, Richard Nixon won forty-nine states.

Among official Democrats, and in the liberal and progressive blogs, there is widespread talk of when, not if, the Democrats regain the White House in 2008. They correctly perceive a nationwide disgust with the unconstrained greed and lawlessness of the Bush/Cheney administration, and of the six years of total compliance with this villainy by the Congressional Republicans. These cheerful Democrats are confident that the GOP record assures a substantial victory in the 2008 election.

They forget that despite recent revelations of GOP finagling, the Rovian machinery of election fraud and massive disenfranchisement remains essentially in place. The "black box" paperless touch screen voting machines, built and secretly programmed by Republican manufacturers, will once again count and compile more than a third of the votes of the 2008 election.

Nonetheless, as we discovered in 2006, overwhelming public support of the Democrats can overcome a Republican "fix." And this time, the public has been alerted to the GOP's electoral shenanigans. Accordingly, the Democrat's prospect for victory in 2008 should be excellent, unless the party once again finds a way to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

It appears that they may have found that way in the "front-running" candidacy of Hillary Clinton .

-- EP
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Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 09:52 AM
Response to Original message
1. let's not make our choice out of fear
people who prefer Hillary should be brave and vote for her. Be like Tammy Baldwin, who has endorsed her.
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roesch Donating Member (82 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 09:56 AM
Response to Original message
2. I agree
Many progressives that I know say that if Hillary is nominated they will hold their nose and vote for her but she really does not represent the best the party can offer and I think it unwise to continue to support her. Further she will be a lightening rod for the right wing which will back Mitt even though a Mormon and who will win by a small margin.
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nancyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 09:59 AM
Response to Original message
3. Well said!
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kenfrequed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 10:20 AM
Response to Original message
4. Hmm I half agree
I'm not sure it is as cut and dry as all this. But there is a strategic interest for the wealthy to put their bucks behind Hillary. It is a difficult game to play with this sort of handicapping.

1) I think that the corporate powers seem to realize that there is a leftward counterswing that is in the works and know that it will be tough for a republican to win an election this year. Particularly when so many of the candidates are yoking themselves to all of Bush's positions.

2) Choosing Hillary narrows the debate in an election significantly as she, like other "Moderate" democrats, will glide towards the center rather than risking trying to communicate progressive values to the larger population.

3) She is a known factor and some of the monied folk recall how Clinton served their interests effectively enough.
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libodem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
5. I want to love Hillary
and I fit the description of someone who 'should'. I'm slightly over 50, white, female, liberal, you know sort of in her demographic. I read the 'Convince me why you like Hillary' post last night and clicked on her website for the platform details. I heard an interview where a right-wing male praised her foreign policy expertise. One of my women friends told me this weekend she is voting for Hillary and gave some convincing evidence. I could just bawl. I want to like her better. I'm sad and confused. I agree with the OP. But, it's not all hard evidence with me. It's that damn 'gut' feeling that I can't shake. And everything Mr. Partridge said.
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The Wizard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
6. If Hillary gets the nod
who will she have as a running mate, Zell Miller? Hillary can't win a national election. If the head of the propaganda wing of the opposite party endorses her we should know what's up.
My only reason for hoping she wins is to be witness to Limbaugh and Hannity committing suicide on the air. O'Reilly and Bortz would convulse and Ann Koulter would come out of the closet.
The rigged voting machines couldn't be questioned because of her negatives. The next time we have free and fair elections will be when we all vote on a paper ballot that's hand counted at the end of the day in front of anyone who cares to watch. The idea of counting the vote in secret comes right out of the Stalin playbook. Until that time, goodbye America. We're back in the USSR.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. "If the head of the propaganda wing of the opposite party endorses her,
Edited on Tue Aug-07-07 02:40 PM by KCabotDullesMarxIII
we should know what's up."

2 + 2 = 4
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King Coal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-10-07 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #6
26. Bingo. This article is right on.
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jaysunb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 12:00 PM
Response to Original message
7. Clear & concise. Take heed.
Edited on Tue Aug-07-07 12:02 PM by jaysunb
:thumbsup:
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Ian_rd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
8. There is no greater gift we could give to Republicans than a Hillary nomination
She has been vilified every day on right-wing radio and television for the past fifteen years and therefore starts with a serious disadvantage of millions of Americans who would never ever never vote for her. And yet if she happens to win, she is adequately beholden to the same elite forces that control the Republican Party that any difference between her and a Republican would be negligible.

A Hillary nomination is a loss no matter how you slice it. A loss for liberal values, a loss for our working class, a loss for our Constitution, and our chance to make any repairs to the damage Bush has wrought.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
9. Why Hillary would be the favorite Dem candidate for the GOP
I think the most obvious reason is that every poll I've seen, even as she leads the Democratic field by quite a bit, has her running BEHIND Obama, Edwards and Gore when tested in head to head competition against any of the top tier Republican candidates. The evidence is incontrovertable on that.

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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 02:30 PM
Response to Original message
10. The MSM features Hillary Campaigning, these days, almost as much as they showed Bush
Edited on Tue Aug-07-07 02:32 PM by KoKo01
before the 2006 Election. You can't turn on CNBC or MSNBC and not see photos of her at different campaign stops whenever politics is mentioned....which is about all they talk about anyway these days since BushCo told them to SHUT UP and LET THE DAMNED SURGE TAKE IT'S TIME...and Libby and Gonzales are getting off for perjury.

I agree with Earnest Partridge about Hillary....and having watched so many campaigns back to the JFK Days...it does seem in hindsight that the "HAND" of the Media has played in which candidates the Democratic Party selects to get all the attention. Now that I'm older and more cynical and wise to the ways of what's gone on...I can see that "THE SYSTEM" tends to support those who will support their policies and not "the people." That's why "The People" and our Country's Infrastructure never got the promised "Peace Dividend" after the end of Vietnam War.

I know folks here won't agree with this...but I watched "Obama Phenomena" come out of nowhere and that also made me suspicious from the beginning about who is running him. He seems a fine person with much potential but to burst out onto the media scene and even the liberal blogs was unusual given that other anti-war candidates like Dennis Kucinich had been out for years backing up his talk with his vote.

I wonder why Dennis Kucinich never got the Press that Obama has gotten. Why was Kucinich never seriously considered. Is it because he's small and looks like an elf to some people? Also, the African-American Community that DOES TRY TO VOTE...hasn't really come on board with Obama. Could it be after their long history of being manipulated they also question who is behind Obama? Obama himself might not be aware of the promises he will have to keep for all that free MSM time. But, he will find out one day because they will come knocking on his door. But, if Obama IS aware and is pretending otherwise he isn't a candidate we would want to win...because he would be "run" not by us but by those "special interests" he says don't donate to him by giving money...but they've donated to him with lots of good press.

Think about Al Gore... He was the one who "wasn't selected" but was a natural because he was Vice President and all VP's that are strong and popular as Gore was under Clinton are expected to run by the Establishment. But Gore wasn't CHOSEN by the ESTABLISHMENT...so he was taken down by crookery, vicious attacks and "the Powers that Be" who refused to have him.

I think the Obama/Clinton scenario is a trap as Earnest does. The Media creating a frenzy of "FrontRunner" status is a tip off to dark and disappointing days ahead for Democrats. And if that FISA vote is any indication of where our Democratic Party tends to go if they get in power...then that's also a huge concern for many of us Progressives who know the changes that need to be made for the health of our Constitution and our Country. Without a strong President who has a deep moral compass and devotion to THE PEOPLE ...we can expect George Bush Light...with the powers of the Unitary Presidency perhaps more mildly wielded but still there.
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Diane R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
12. Yes. The Media is shoving Hillary down our throats. I'm sick of it.
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-07-07 08:40 PM
Response to Original message
13. How about the proposition that it's win-win for the Republicans if we
nominate Hillary? The Republicans would get either a Republican president or a Dino President who has shown she will fold and walk away instead of fighting to the end. What happened to health insurance the last 7 1/2 years Clinton was in office? All it took was for Hillary to get one bloody nose and the issue vanished.
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FiveGoodMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. I think that's it, exactly.
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antiimperialist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 08:30 AM
Response to Original message
14. I agree with your conclusion.
The media has a conspicuous pro-Hillary slant. They manufacture controversies to hurt Obama and Edwards.
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19jet54 Donating Member (737 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 04:06 PM
Response to Original message
15. Strategic Positioning for Ultimate Success
Most pundits say to court your base for the primary & go to the middle for the general elections to win?

Hillary seems to simply be courting the middle period. And with the popularity of Bill, is going for the mature voters, the Baby Boomers and those same folks are also the Corporate CEOs types where there is much money and consistent voting records. She is trying to appeal to the AARP crowds that are as organized as the NRA is? Election seem to always be about the least of the evils, the most mature and the safer risk of the pack. The really good politicians can usually manage this without totally pissing off their base or the other party's base too. And the money always flow to the most popular or the most electable that protect your own personal interests. Now throw in the Womens Suffrage thing and Hillary simply floats to the top - this is no surprise to me, but I'm sure allot of the younger crowd are a bit amazed that the more radical candidates for change are not the logical choice.

What seems to be working here is that the major attack is at the GOP rather than against your friends and allies (I am talking politics more than foreign affairs). Most level headed and logical folks seem to like that. The Edwards/Obama/Gravel/Kucinich tactics of attacking your own party is really taking it's toll on their numbers, and they don't really seem to be trainable on this issue? Hillary is also attracting the Washington Power Base as strong allies too. I equate this to the lawyer getting the Judge to agree, in front of the jury, that their position is the right one? The other side has just lost!

Sometimes American Politics, especially after George W. Bush, is about electing the person who will do the least damage to our future, and patch up the existing mess just enough to basically please everyone. Radical positions never seem to do that? (By radical, I mean away from the mainstream, middle of the road or drastic changes period)

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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-08-07 09:42 PM
Response to Original message
17. Sloppy research, fabrications, and truthiness.
Officials at Rupert Murdoch's News Corporation have contributed to Hillary Clinton's campaign

And they have to Obama's campaign and Chris Dodd's campaign. In 2004, News Corp gave generously to Howard Dean's campaign.

...and Murdoch himself has held fund-raisers in her behalf.

Yes, for her New York Senate campaign. News Corp. is based in New York. She is the Senator of most News Corp. employees. The piece in the OP is deceptive - trying to make it seem as though News Corp had a presidential fundraiser. Further, his son, James Murdoch has contributed to Democrats including Al Gore and Chuck Schumer.

Lawyers at Kenneth Starr's law firm, Kirkland and Ellis, have donated more to Clinton than they have to all of the Republican candidates combined.

William Singer of Kirkland and Ellis have donate thousands to Democrats and Democratic organizations. Other than Clinton, I'll throw some names at you: Biden, McCaskill, Lautenberg, Gillibrand, Duckworth, Ford, Jr., Durbin, Casey, Byrd, Bingaman, Kennedy, Stabenow, Conrad, Carper, Cantwell, the DSCC and the DCCC.

http://www.campaignmoney.com/political/contributions/william-singer.asp?cycle=06

In addition, Bloomberg.com reports that "Large US (law) firms ... are giving thousands more to Democratic hopefuls than Republicans. Top Wall Street investment banks and hedge funds are also giving more to Democrats."

Edwards leads in contributions from law firms. Obama leads in contributions from Wall Street.

Hillary Clinton's appearance last week at the Yearly Kos, was cut short by her appearance at a fund-raiser at the estate of billionaire, Ron Perlman.

Actually, it's Ronald Perelman, and he has given considerably more to Democrats than Republicans. Other than $1,000 to a Republican house race and $15,000 to the RNC, he has contributed approx. $50,000 to Democrats. It's hard to make the case he's a Republican based on his donations.

So the whole "Clinton is the Republican's favorite" based on donations has been pretty much shot to hell.

How about the other stuff?

* Most significantly, among the general voting population Hillary Clinton has the highest disapproval ratings of all the Democratic candidates - in fact, according to a June Mason-Dixon poll, she is the only candidate of either party of whom a majority (52%) have said that they would not consider voting. In addition, 42% reported an unfavorable opinion of Clinton, compared to 39% favorable; the only candidate with a net negative rating. These are devastating statistics which are unlikely to change significantly, since the public is by now well acquainted with Clinton. One would assume that such statistics would disqualify a candidate. However, the establishment Democrats who support Hillary are unperturbed.

In the most recent polls, her disapproval ratings have declined while Obama's have risen. The Mason Dixon poll was an outlier. NO OTHER POLL has shown what it did - before or since. Further, other polls released the same week showed Clinton leading the GOP frontrunners in head to head match-ups.

* Next, "the woman thing." Though the mainstream media has scrupulously avoided the topic, the fact that Clinton is the first woman in US history likely to be the presidential nominee of a major party must be a serious obstacle to her election. This is regrettable, and I sincerely wish that it were not so. But there it is, and the Democratic party will ignore this reality at its peril. And if Clinton selects Barack Hussein Obama as her running-mate, with the first black candidate on a national ticket the "blue" populist resurgence in the South will be stopped in its tracks and the Democrats will lose every electoral vote in the South. Jim Crow, while muted, still lives. Also regrettable, but true.

Replace "the woman thing" with "the black thing."

* If Clinton were to be elected and serve two full terms, at the end of her administration in 2016, two families would then have occupied the White House for twenty-eight years. Many Americans are extremely put-off by the very idea of dynasties and royal families. I know that I am. Millions of voters, I suspect, would go to the polls in November, 2008 with this thought foremost on their minds: "this dynasty business must end, and end now."

Again, a recent poll disputes this and there is no evidence to support the above contention.

And to be completely honest, not much more you've written is grounded in reality. Winning votes in general elections ARE found in the political center. Sorry. It's a fact. We won in 2006 because independents came back towards our side, we won in '92 because Clinton appealed to independents, and we've lost everything in between based partially on independent swing voters cringing at the thought of Democrats.

Clinton is the ONLY candidate uniquely suited to battle the rightwing smear machine. Obama? Get real. He'll run his general like his primary and stare like a deer in the headlights when the GOP starts slicing him up.

Sorry. Your entire piece is filled with fabrications and leftwing truthiness.













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crystal dawn Donating Member (43 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-09-07 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Hillary in '08. Psyche!
I've been thinking this for a long time, and I believe the Republicans have always wanted Hillary to be the front Democratic runner in '08. And Earnest Partridge has beautifully put my theory into believable plausibility.

We all know the media and GOP machine are one in the same. Tis why we see very little hard hitting critical blasts against Hillary at the moment. Those won't happen until she's the Democratic nominee.

Unless Gore or someone of his electable stature (preferably white and male) gets into this race soon, we are doomed for another GOP President and not much is going to change in this country. Hillary, whether you like her or not, is the smartest candidate (although not the people's choice) and I'm quite surprised that she doesn't realize that this country has yet to get over its prejudices and lack of enlightenment. Does she truly believe she can be elected? Or is she simply part of this conspiracy to prop up Democrats destined to lose?
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-09-07 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. interesting...
In the light of compelling evidence that contradicts Partridge's "straight from the heart" assesment, you still choose to take his ball and run with it. That's called "head in the sand."

I'll repeat this again - there is NO evidence - NONE - that shows "Republicans have always wanted Hillary to be the front Democratic runner in '08." On the contrary, polls show Clinton defeating the GOP frontrunners and her negatives going down. :shrug:
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crystal dawn Donating Member (43 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-09-07 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. Ok...
Edited on Thu Aug-09-07 08:43 AM by crystal dawn
It's actually pretty simple. The "woman thing." This country has yet to get over such prejudices (simply take a look at our pay scales) and I highly doubt she can be elected. When it comes down to crunch time, there won't be enough voters to overcome another Diebold debacle, and there will be those that will NOT choose on the side of a woman and instead choose another white male they "feel safe" with. Whether the GOP knows this or not, they and the media are propping her up to no end.

Btw, I didn't choose to take his ball and run with it. I've believed this for some time.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-09-07 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. that's more truthiness
Edited on Thu Aug-09-07 08:35 AM by wyldwolf
Polls indicate Americans are very ready for a woman president.

Amazing the people on DU who believe a black man with Muslim heritage with the middle name "Hussien" is perfectly acceptable but a woman named Clinton! God forbid!
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crystal dawn Donating Member (43 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-09-07 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. I'm not talking about MY accebability.
Although the majority of Americans favor the stances that Kucinich or Richardson take, the majority also soak up the media and don't educate themselves on the best qualified candidate. Obama has about as much of a chance as Hillary in this regard.....YET they are the forerunners. And as Mr. Partridge has affirmatively said, it's the MEDIA who has decided this.

Hillary (or Obama) simply can't win. Whether it's as basic as this country's prejudices or not enough votes to surpass the electronic voting machines treachery....we are doomed.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-09-07 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. well, at least you're including Obama in your prognostication
Fair and consistent. :)
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crystal dawn Donating Member (43 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-09-07 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. :)
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Mr_Jefferson_24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-10-07 10:13 AM
Response to Original message
25. Kick -- Right on target. nt.
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