McCain's birthplace in Panama Canal Zone raises eligibility questions

[dolo amber]

Source: Chicago Tribune

WASHINGTON — The question has nagged at the parents of Americans born outside the continental United States for generations: Dare their children aspire to grow up and become president? In the case of Sen. John McCain of Arizona, the issue is becoming more than a matter of parental daydreaming.

McCain's likely nomination as the Republican candidate for president and the happenstance of his birth in the Panama Canal Zone in 1936 are reviving a musty debate that has surfaced periodically since the founders first set quill to parchment and declared that only a "natural-born citizen" can hold the nation's highest office.


========================




Read more: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-mccain-birthplacefeb28,0,6597433.story

---

:o

[FogerRox]

1. Sorry, old and weak. If Military families were told their kids cant be citizens

there would great disincentive to serve overseas.

Dont worry McCain will lose like McGovern did in '72.

[papau]

22. "citizens question is a given - but Constitution "native" is not - but it's w/o merit as his

parents are citizens and that defines native (I think - but this court could rule native has some original meaning as printed in local papers in the 1780's and therefore he is not a native born citizen).

[notadmblnd]

2. his parents were rich Americans, that makes him an American citizen

citizenship is one of the requirements to become CIC. although I'm no expert, I don't see this as questionable.

[ben_meyers]

5. His father was in the military, stationed in Panama

Unless Military pay has really changed since then, I hardly think that they were rich.

[The Croquist]

9. That's just a rude statement

His father and he both fought for this country and they deserve respect. You can disagree with their politics but they both served the United States.

McCain was born in the Panama canal zone in 1936. It was a mosquito ridden place and not a "rich man's paradise"

In 1936 John Sidney McCain, Jr. was 25 years old and he wasn't rich. During WWII he risked his life for this country as captain of a submarine, the USS Gunnel. A cruise on a submarines was not a luxury cruise and 3,500 US submariners died in the war. They called them "pig boats" for a reason. You were basically living in a tube where your shipmates ate, slept, crapped and pissed. They didn't do laundry, there wasn't enough water to take a shower and you got to share a bunk with a guy who was on duty while you were sleeping.

The USS Gunnel was the 42nd of the Gato class boats commissioned. Of the first 42, 12 were sunk. That's almost 29%. That doesn't sound pampered to me.

John Sidney McCain III had his own challenges. Yes his dad was an Admiral. So what? He was also shot down and tortured. Before that he had the joy of sitting in his plane on the deck of the Forrestal and watching another US plane hit it with a missile, causing a fire that killed 134 of his fellow sailors.

Bitch about his politics all you want. Don't vote for him (I'm hoping to vote for Obama again). Call him a crook for Keating five (I do) but don't call him "rich". He deserves better then that.

[LanternWaste]

17. Only to the point in which he earns our disrespect

"His father and he both fought for this country and they deserve respect."
Only to the point in which he earns our disrespect-- and that's already happened...

[galileo3000]

19. Thanks, you are right.

Disagree with him. But I have seen the videos and I do believe the stories I have read about his service, and his father's. If we are going to stop this blood feud within our own country we must detach ourselves from those too poisened to see anything but enemies in opponents.

[The Croquist]

23. Thank you.

Now lets go out there and vote against him.

[IsItJustMe]

24. interesting

[Drifter]

3. Does that mean ...

that an American citizens body is considered American Soil (much like an embassy)?

I kid.

Cheers
Drifter

[DinahMoeHum]

4. IMO, this is a dead issue. He was born to American citizens,

therefore he is also an American citizen.

Period.
End of discussion.



:silly:

[atreides1]

6. Not that simple

While in the Army I had a friend whose son was born in Germany, and the child held dual citizenship.


Besides, now the SCOTUS has the chance to finally define what "natural born citizen" means!

[MindPilot]

13. I was born on a US military installation in the UK.

My father was American, my mother a Brit. I have an uncle who's an MBE and I think I hold dual citizenship. My US citizenship has never been questioned--not even when they needed some more cannon fodder for Southeast Asia.

You can question a lot of things about McCain, but I don't think citizenship is one of them.

[scisyhp1]

18. Nobody questions McCain's citizenship.

Or Arnold's citizenship for that matter. That's their right to become POTUS
as stipulated in the Constitution which is being questioned. With Arnold it is clear
that he is not a "natural born citizen". With McCain it is clear that he was not born
in the US and he is not covered by the most obvious interpretation of the concept.
Thus his "natural bornness" has to be asserted based on some other legal argument,
and possibly argued in front of and decided upon by the SCOTUS, if we want to
follow the Constitution to the letter. One could, for instance, argue that in many
countries (including the US) everyone born on their sovereign territory is automatically
considered their citizen. And that the framers intended to exclude any possibility
of a person of dual loyalty becoming POTUS. I don't know what Panamanian law says in
this respect, but it is clear to me that McCain's legal status in respect to Panama
is different from that of someone who was born in the US.

[JPZenger]

26. Natural born vs. naturalized

The Constitution does not say the President must be born within the Continental US. "Natural born" means not naturalized from another country. A person born on a US controlled territory certainly meets the requirement.

We look petty to bring this up.

[montanto]

7. WTF? exploded long ago.

[LTR]

8. If a person is born to American citizens in a U.S. territory...

...or any U.S. property (military base, embassy, etc.), that person was born on U.S. soil.

[WTyler]

10. Meh

McCain's fine on this. If both of your parents are citizens so are you. Granted, lawyers can and have gotten the meaning of common sense words changed in court, but "natural born" obviously means that you were born a citizen, which McCain was. I'd also guess that he was born in a military hospital which would be considered US soil so he would be safe even if some strange logic of the meaning of "natural born" was used.

[MindPilot]

11. Then how is * president?

He's not even from the known universe.

[2Design]

12. ridiculous n/t

[monmouth]

14. I just read on either C&L or HuffPo that Bush will grant an "amnesty" for him...n/t

[Crabby Appleton]

15. TITLE 8 > CHAPTER 12 > SUBCHAPTER III > Part I > § 1401

TITLE 8 > CHAPTER 12 > SUBCHAPTER III > Part I > § 1401 § 1401. Nationals and citizens of United States at birth

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode08/usc_sec_08_00001401----000-.html


The following shall be nationals and citizens of the United States at birth:
(a) a person born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof;
...snip
(g) a person born outside the geographical limits of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is an alien, and the other a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, was physically present in the United States or its outlying possessions for a period or periods totaling not less than five years, at least two of which were after attaining the age of fourteen years: Provided, That any periods of honorable service in the Armed Forces of the United States, or periods of employment with the United States Government or with an international organization as that term is defined in section 288 of title 22 by such citizen parent, or any periods during which such citizen parent is physically present abroad as the dependent unmarried son or daughter and a member of the household of a person
(A) honorably serving with the Armed Forces of the United States, or
(B) employed by the United States Government or an international organization as defined in section 288 of title 22, may be included in order to satisfy the physical-presence requirement of this paragraph. This proviso shall be applicable to persons born on or after December 24, 1952, to the same extent as if it had become effective in its present form on that date; and

[Crabby Appleton]

16. and TITLE 8 > CHAPTER 12 > SUBCHAPTER III > Part I > § 1403

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode08/usc_sec_08_00001403----000-.html

TITLE 8 > CHAPTER 12 > SUBCHAPTER III > Part I > § 1403

§ 1403. Persons born in the Canal Zone or Republic of Panama on or after February 26, 1904
(a) Any person born in the Canal Zone on or after February 26, 1904, and whether before or after the effective date of this chapter, whose father or mother or both at the time of the birth of such person was or is a citizen of the United States, is declared to be a citizen of the United States.

(b) Any person born in the Republic of Panama on or after February 26, 1904, and whether before or after the effective date of this chapter, whose father or mother or both at the time of the birth of such person was or is a citizen of the United States employed by the Government of the United States or by the Panama Railroad Company, or its successor in title, is declared to be a citizen of the United States.

[scisyhp1]

20. That law has no bearing on McCain's status as "natural born citizen"

as it was adopted after he was born and besides it does not even contain the
concept of "natural born citizen" and refers only to "citizen" which
McCain quite unquestionably is. It is clear that there is a difference
between just citizens and "natural born" citizens. It is also clear that
"natural born citizen" need not be the same as "citizen at birth", which
McCain is also clearly is, since he was never naturalized. A person can
very easily be "citizen at birth" of several different countries at the same
time. It is quite possible that intention was to forbid such persons from
becoming POTUS, in which case a real legal argument needs to be made on
McCain's behalf. The Constitution is to be taken seriously, it is not enough
to say: "He has a US passport and looks alright to me".

[ngant17]

21. Well, maybe it's time for liberals to adopt "strict constructionism"

of the US Constitution for a change. And let the conservatives eat their own ideological poison to see how that feels. If it says "only natural born citizens" can be POTUS, then sorry, but Sen. McCain just got a TKO on a constitutional technicality.

Makes no difference how patriotic his family is/was/will be, if he wasn't born in the US of A, then our sacred Constitution must not be second-guess'ed by the conservative element. Panama doesn't count, period. It's not a state the last I checked, OTOH Hawaii being the last state of the union means Obama who was born in Hawaii is qualified according to the US Constitution.

Ho-hum, let's see, conservatives will be for states' rights until a state Supreme Court rules against one of their candidates (Bush vrs. Gore in Florida), so that ideology goes in the trash can and now they forget states' rights and want a stronger federal courts to govern our lives.

Do conservatives prefer to make up the rules as they play the game?

[DRoseDARs]

25. Crosslink with the GD thread on exact same issue, exact same NYT article earlier this evening.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=2939801