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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 04:00 PM
Original message
Andrew Sullivan: How Did I Get Iraq Wrong?
http://www.slate.com/id/2187098/pagenum/all/#page_start

How Did I Get Iraq Wrong?
I seriously misjudged Bush's sense of morality.
By Andrew Sullivan


Editor's Note: To mark the fifth anniversary of the invasion of Iraq, Slate has asked a number of writers who originally supported the war to answer the question, "Why did we get it wrong?" We have invited contributions from the best-known "liberal hawks"—and others—many of whom participated in two previous Slate debates about the war, the first before it began in fall of 2002, the second in early 2004. We will be publishing their responses through the week. Read the rest of the contributions.



I think I committed four cardinal sins.

Historical Narcissism
I was distracted by the internal American debate to the occlusion of the reality of Iraq. For most of my adult lifetime, I had heard those on the left decry American military power, constantly warn of quagmires, excuse what I regarded as inexcusable tyrannies, and fail to grasp that the nature of certain regimes makes their removal a moral objective. As a child of the Cold War and a proud Reaganite and Thatcherite, I regarded 1989 as almost eternal proof of the notion that the walls of tyranny could fall if we had the will to bring them down and the gumption to use military power when we could. I had also been marinated in neoconservative thought for much of the 1990s and seen the moral power of Western intervention in Bosnia and Kosovo. All this primed me for an ideological battle that was, in retrospect, largely irrelevant to the much more complex post-Cold War realities we were about to confront.

When I heard the usual complaints from the left about how we had no right to intervene, how Bush was the real terrorist, how war was always wrong, my trained ears heard the same cries that I had heard in the 1980s. So, I saw the opposition to the war as another example of a faulty Vietnam Syndrome, associated it entirely with the far left—or boomer nostalgia—and was revolted by the anti-war marches I saw in Washington. I wasn't wrong about some of this. Some of those reflexes were at work (which is why I find Obama's far more pragmatic opposition so striking in retrospect). I became much too concerned with fighting that old internal ideological battle and failed to think freshly or realistically about what the consequences of intervention could be. I allowed myself to be distracted by an ideological battle when what was required was clear-eyed prudence.

snip//

Misreading Bush
Yes, the incompetence and arrogance were beyond anything I imagined. In 2000, my support for Bush was not deep. I thought he was an OK, unifying, moderate Republican who would be fine for a time of peace and prosperity. I was concerned—ha!—that Gore would spend too much. I was reassured by the experience and intelligence and pedigree of Cheney and Rumsfeld and Powell. Two of them had already fought and won a war in the Gulf. The bitter election battle hardened my loyalty. And once 9/11 happened, my support intensified as I hoped for the best. Bush's early speeches were magnificent. The Afghanistan invasion was defter than I expected. I got lulled. I wanted him to succeed—too much, in retrospect.

But my biggest misreading was not about competence. Wars are often marked by incompetence. It was a fatal misjudgment of Bush's sense of morality. I had no idea he was so complacent—even glib—about the evil that good intentions can enable. I truly did not believe that Bush would use 9/11 to tear up the Geneva Conventions. When I first heard of abuses at Gitmo, I dismissed them as enemy propaganda. I certainly never believed that a conservative would embrace torture as the central thrust of an anti-terror strategy and lie about it, and scapegoat underlings for it, and give us the indelible stain of Bagram and Camp Cropper and Abu Ghraib and all the other secret torture and interrogation sites that Bush and Cheney created and oversaw. I certainly never believed that a war I supported for the sake of freedom would actually use as its central weapon the deepest antithesis of freedom—the destruction of human autonomy and dignity and will that is torture. To distort this by shredding the English language, by engaging in newspeak that I had long associated with totalitarian regimes, was a further insult. And for me, it was yet another epiphany about what American conservatism had come to mean.

I know our enemy is much worse. I have never doubted that. I still have no qualms whatever in waging war to defeat it. But I never believed that America would do what America has done. Never. My misjudgment at the deepest moral level of what Bush and Cheney and Rumsfeld were capable of—a misjudgment that violated the moral core of the enterprise—was my worst mistake. What the war has done to what is left of Iraq—the lives lost, the families destroyed, the bodies tortured, the civilization trashed—was bad enough. But what was done to America—and the meaning of America—was unforgivable. And for that I will not and should not forgive myself.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
1. Real reason--the only reason that idiot was "popular" with the fawning media elites is because he
was a Catholic (and steadfastly so), a conservative, and GAY. Oh, and HIV-positive.

Everyone likes a hen's tooth. They're RARE, and that is what makes them interesting.

He milked that old cow dry.

Now, in essence, he's just like everyone else. He's gotta SCRAMBLE to stay interesting.

Craven fool.
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caledesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #1
19. I agree! NT
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 04:04 PM
Response to Original message
2.  No, you should not, Andrew.
n/t
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 04:05 PM
Response to Original message
3. I'm proud to have opposed the war from Day One
I don't think I could live with myself if I had been wrong about it.

I've been wrong about issues before: I used to be against affirmative action; I voted for Proposition 209 in California in 1996.

But the Iraq War was too important to be wrong about.
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enid602 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
4. Iraq
The writer seems to overlook that most intelligent people knew that the stated reasons for going to war were patently false, and that the Iraq study group had hounded every President since Carter to invade Iraq. Rumors of Cheney's strong-arming of intelligence agencies abounded prior to the invasion. Somehow, it just made good sense not to start a preemptive war. And Bush's firing of the underling who predicted that the war would cost billions (we wish!) should have been a red flag. Well, the author has little to fear; Bush's colossal and expensive mistake will ensure that the US will never again be in a position to start such an undertaking. That is, if Bush doesn't bomb Iran.
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Even though I hated Bush, I have to admit that I bought into Busco's lies.
I wasn't involved in politics at the time, didn't look any further than my nightly news, and honestly believed that Saddam had WMDs pointed our way.

So I'm not one of the "intelligent people who knew that the stated reasons for going to war were patently false...". I'm very disappointed in myself, devastated and heartbroken by the reality, and have empathy for others like me who didn't know better and who didn't make the effort to find out more.

I have learned to not let this happen again - and I trust Andrew Sullivan has, too.
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Mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Why did you not listen to the UN investigators and Hans Blitz.
There was so many reputable sources out there that showed bush was lying. Even about yellow cake. I want to know why you ignored them?
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. I was wrong, too, but I believed Colin Powell. Now I know better, but
I never fathomed he'd lie to us all.
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enid602 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. Powell
He was forced into that position. He was assured that the docs he brought to the UN were real. I think Bush just wanted to take advantage of the trust that Powell had earned over a long and illustrious career. Such a waste.
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Joe Bacon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Powell is a liar
Colin Powell DELIBERATELY went into the United Nations to LIE. His whole career has been endless lies after lies. From My Lai, to covering up for the Contras, covering up Contra Cocaine, undermining Bill CLinton and his little hand in making sure that Florida military ballots helped stuff the box for Bush, and concluding with his lies at the UN, there is a single thread that weaves all the way through that liar's career. Powell has always enabled the Republican Party. He lied any lie for them. He still does. And he made sure that his son would continue the family's whoring tradition for the Republican Party.
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #20
28. Wow.
News to me. Regardless, he DID resign from office. If what you say is accurate, maybe he started questioning his actions and wanted no more part of it all.
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Joe Bacon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. You're assuming Powell has some semblance of a conscience!
Start with this and then go Googling

http://www.usvetdsp.com/story13.htm
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. I always give people the benefit of the doubt.
And always support those who realize their wrongs and take steps to do better. I'll check out the link (thanks for that), but I also firmly believe that we don't know what it's like to be in another's shoes, so I may find myself giving him a pass here or there. Or, I may end up reviling him -- we'll see!
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Brazenly Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 07:29 AM
Response to Reply #29
35. Are you for real? Citing Ted "Swift Boat" Sampley as a source?
Edited on Mon Mar-24-08 07:43 AM by brazenlyliberal
This guy is a character assassin for the Bush crowd. First McCain, then Kerry. You can't believe anything he says. In fact, his condemnation of Powell alone is damn near enough to resurrect Powell's reputation.

On edit: It seems that before Sampley did his nasty little number for Bush II, he did a number on Bush I. (http://mungowitzend.blogspot.com/2004/08/ted-sampley-and-politics-of-hero.html) I don't know whether he's willing to whore himself to anyone with the cash or he's just got a fixation on smearing people of any party who are war heroes. Either way, he's not exactly a reliable source.
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #28
45. I think, gately, he saw the handwriting on the wall and didn't want
to have that many crimes on his hands. he had enough complicity for his courage level and he ran like the coward he is.
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Donnachaidh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #18
40. "forced into it"? TOTAL CROCK.
He had a gun to his head, REALLY? :sarcasm:

:rofl:
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #18
44. You give powell too much credit. He KNEW he was lying. He helped
cover up the My Lai massacre. He has been a bastard for decades. don't let him fool you.
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. I didn't even KNOW there was anything to listen
TO from the UN investigators -- or who Hans Blitz was.

What's even more horrifying than my own lack of awareness, is that I think the majority of Americans were in the boat with me. Many still are.

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Mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #16
25. What did you listen too? Conservative radio?
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Music.
And watched the local nightly news.

Thanks for the slam, though. Nice to be among friends. Judgmental friends, at that.
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Mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #26
37. It wasn't meant to be a slam. I just wonder how you didn't hear about the
UN weapons investigators or Hans Blitz.

I am truthfully interested in the how and why people supported this war.
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #37
42. Okay - then I'll 'enlighten' you as far as concerns me.
I should preface this by saying that I have always reviled and distrusted Bush which makes my lack of attention even more puzzling. I should also add that now that I AM into politics, it's inconceivable (and maddening) to me that others continue to be blissfully unaware.

Like them, I couldn't have named the Attorney General, House Speaker, etc. In a way I didn't care because I felt that those in the know were taking care of everything, and that although there were shenanigans constantly afoot, ultimately "they" were making decisions that were best for our country and our people. And, if anything really sleazy was going on, the offenders would surely be busted and we'd hear all about it. If I DID hear of anything about the reports from the UN investigators or Hans Blitz, I didn't pay any attention. Again, trusting the Dems in Washington.

(Pause for :rofl:)

As to the war, I don't think I viewed it as a 'war' per se, but rather swooping in, plucking out Saddam, and pointing those WMDs elsewhere. Bottom line, I believed the lies. I didn't look any further.

In full disclosure, today, if we had LEGIT intel that a country had WMD and had designs on the U.S., I'd still think that action to prevent an attack would be justified. But now I realize there's more to it than meets the eye, and there are those I would look to to let us know what the real situation was.

I was caught up in work and frankly, just living my life. Not that there were a lot of demands on me by any means, but there was just no interest.

A short time after the invasion, and I don't recall exactly what/how it came about, I started getting an "uh oh" feeling. I began to listen and to pay attention to the news. It was becoming obvious that we weren't making "progress", that there was a little problem of no WMDs (although I did expect Bush to "supply" them if that went on for too long), and we kept sending more troops.

Fast forward to this election cycle. I'd learned enough to realize it's incumbent upon me to do what I can to try to put a halt to the road we've been traveling down, and to always test the Wet Paint sign for myself. I started watching the Dem debates from the time they aired because I understood it was CRITICALLY important that we hire a POTUS who can lead and help heal our country and our relations with the world. Previously I'd just vote for the Dem -- again, letting those who were "into this stuff" pick the best candidate for our party. Although I'm devastated that my candidate didn't make the cut, and believe that it's an major loss for our country, I realize my responsibility now and will continue to do what I can.

I don't know if I spoke for others who "supported this war", but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.







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Mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #42
48. Thanks, I understand
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #16
46. hang in there, gately. self education is a long process and I know
you will find the truth if you follow the trail.
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TheDoorbellRang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #10
51. Because those sources were like Waldo in the Where's Waldo books
In order to find Waldo, you not only have to look hard, but also feel a compelling desire to look. Not surprising that many Americans were fooled.

I think each of us has had a different "WTF!" moment on our personal journey of awareness re this administration.

I did not vote for Bush. I was unhappy that he "won." 9/11 was a wake up call for myself to start paying attention to what was going on in the world. I started watching more news and searching out more info on the "tubes." I was somewhat reassured to think that Powell might be lending a guiding hand to the idiot in the White House. When the whole rush to war in Iraq began, I was neither for nor against it. I thought if we could pull it off it might be a good idea. I should add that Fox was one of my news sources at the time. I was naive enough to believe that propaganda was something they did over in the USSR. Yes, I know. Pretty stupid. But there it is.

My WTF moment came with the looting in Baghdad after "mission accomplished." Even I, knowing nothing about "strategery," could see that that was monumentally stupid. Continuing with my searches on the web, I began noticing a huge disconnect between what I saw there and what was being said on TV. More and more frustrating. More and more alarming. And eventually I found my way here to DU.

Sadly, others didn't realize they were duped until after 2004. Happily, I think today there are more wide awake Americans than there have been in a long, long time. Cuz once you DO find Waldo, he's pretty obvious.
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enid602 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. DU
I'm afraid that the swift and (for me) worrisome run-up to the war caused me to seek alternative sources for info. That's about when I started to post on DU.
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Diclotican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #7
24. gateley
gateley

Everyone can do wrong, even with the best of intentions. And it is good that you come around, to se what this ******* administration of your have manage to do when in office..

Many hear in Norway to bought into the rhetoric, and in the roundup to the war, it was a hard time between them who really believed that Saddam Hussein was a enemy, and that WMD was on their way, if US and UK, was not there to stop it. AKA invade the county, and topple the regime.. Still it is many who really believe that US was right, and that we on the other side of the aisle, who understand that it was a lie, long before the firs rocket hit their targets in Iraq was wrong.. In fact many still believe, that mr Bush was, and are a american hero.. Yes I know, it is disgusting, but many still believe, in US and abroad that mr Bush are a great american Hero.. :puke:

I hope after the fact on the table that you do something. Even if it is not much.. You know the truth now, and can live according to that... I am glad you get to your senses, even if it took some time..;).. That is the important thing, to get to the truth, even that it take a long time to get there... Even a 1000km long journey, start with a single step you know;-) And I do believe, that many who agreed about the war, war honest in their belief. Even that they was dead wrong..

I hope Peace would prevail, even that I understand that the road back to sanity, and where US once again are our friend, as our allied are long.. But if US want us on the other side of the atlantic to be your friend, we would be that. For as long as you want us to be that..

Diclotican

Sorry my bad English, not my native language

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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Awwww, thanks, Diclotican. That's so sweet of you
to take the time to post that. Thank you for your compassion and understanding -- and forgiveness! :hug:

I always enjoy your posts, and although YOU refer to your English as 'bad', we have no difficulty understanding your messages. I'm pleased you're here to contribute.


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Diclotican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #27
36. gateley
gateley

Tank you, as I say, everyone can go wrong, and do the wrong thing, even if you have the best of intentions. And the best then, when you say you are wrong, is to forget, and forgive :toast: :hug: Even if is hard to forgive. If we was doing more of this, try to forgive and forget,then maybe the world would be a little more nice place to be in the future?..

Well it is because my English, is not the best. And I was meet by the grammar police first time I was posting here.. So it is just a warning then;).. But thank you, for your kind word about my English. I guess I am not that bad as I believe then;)
And I am using a lot of spell check to rout out the worst fault then.

Diclotican

Sorry my bad English, not my native language
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Turn CO Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #7
57. May I tag onto your post? That's pretty much my story, too.

I had some doubts, and I did keep asking, "What is the hurry?" -- but otherwise, I allowed myself to be caught up in the newsstories about the WMDs, the testimony, the whole patriotic-colored, flag-waving run-up -- otherwise, now knowing how to judge these things, I won't be fooled again.

I'm so much more suspicious and cynical now that it's a wonder that even Edwards or Obama has ever said a word that remotely cracked through the exterior.

I am heart-broken to know that I in any way did not do my all to prevent this catastrophic war.

I have truly repented (humbly turned in the path to go the opposite direction) and I don't doubt that many others have done so as well.
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Diclotican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-25-08 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #57
59. Turn CO Blue
Turn CO Blue

As long you in the end get on the right track, then you would do the right thing.. Even if it took a long time to get there...;)

When 9 Sept 2001 happen end, I was shocked, afraid, and fear about what was happened was high. And I for one was surprised that US was not using nuclear weapon against the bases in Afghanistan already after a week or something like that..

I believed that US would fight this tali-bans, and Al Qauda in Afghanistan down to the end, and help the poor country to get their feet up and walking again. I never believed, even when mr Bush was acting more and more like a weird man, with some pretty weird views and talk, that US was to do what happened between 2001 and 2008... And I never believed, in my poor mind that US was to destroy, waste all the sympathy that US had in the world after the terrible act of terror in 2001.. If US really wanted to lead, a golden opportunity have arise after that terrible act.. With another president, with another cabinet.. With another view of the world, it would maybe never been that bad as it is today.. In US, in the world as a whole, and not that bad in Iraq...

When I first heard about the WMD, and all that followed I almost get into it myself.. But a little irritating voice, back in my head was telling me that this is wrong, this is a lie.. I always refer that little voice to my better me. But it have the voice of my foster mother then, so I guess she have something with that part of me I guess And thankfully I don't stuck into it, and I was right when I refused to go bandwagon with the Administration of mr Bush jr.

I would not condone, or try to get "even" with people who was supporting this war. Everyone can do wrong, if they never get the right information to find out what happened. Many in germany, in the WW2 really believed what the government was saying, that it was the other parts fault.. That it was the other part who was trying to destroy germany, and the german way of living.. Even when it mean destroying many places and killing many who did no wrong.. But when the war was over, and the truth about what happened between 1933 and 1945 come out, for the most part german was terrified about what happened, in their name.. Many claim they never know what happened in the concentration camps.. Many claim their never know what happened to the german jews, who was been send east to the death camp. Many believed to the prove of the opposite that Hitler was a man who defended the right of germany and the german people. WHY. Because the GOVERNMENT, and all the media have been telling them that for a long time...

Today we do have the same thing in US. The media would not DEAR to tell the truth, about Iraq about the war on terror and about all the other thing that happened in the name of United States of America.. Abu Gierab, and the other stories about horrible condition for prisoners are just the top of the iceberg. I fear that the truth about this occupying and what happened after 2003, are just coming out, and that the truth, whatever it may be would be horrible to know.. And that the media, right or left would have a hard time explain for the american public why they supported this administration. And why they have not told the truth long before the invasion in Iraq.. The truth was there all to se, but not in US..

Hopefully you, have learned something about the experience, and would teach your children, maybe grand children to not go the way you was doing.. And that blindly supporting your government can do dangerous thing when the government misuse that trust...

And hopefully we all would learn something about the last 8 year. Maybe even to make peace, and love between human a bigger issue than it was when mr Bush was in office?.. Ok I know it sound little th 1960s, but I do hope, that we can stop war with Iran and what can follow then. And I really hope that with an another president in US, a more gentle, more friendly nation would arise. A country who the rest of the world can ha some hope in, can lead the way to a better world of tomorrow...

Thank you, for do the right thing. Go the opposite direction and hopefully do your little thing, to make the world, and US a better place to be...
And we on the outside, have to do our little thing, what ever it may be to do the same here in our corner of the world.

Diclotican

Sorry my bad English, not my native language
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #4
43. all these idiot men and their daddy complexes. Bush moral? HA!
Andrew Sullivan was a coward. He was a stinking coward pretend conservative. Stick it, Andrew.
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
5. Good for him!
I remember changing my opinion of him when he shredded Bushco on an episode of Bill Maher, citing precise points as to how Bush had betrayed our country and our people.

I like him -- and I respect his opinion, even when I don't agree.

Thanks!!
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OwnedByFerrets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 04:22 PM
Response to Original message
6. ...
"I know our enemy is much worse. I have never doubted that. I still have no qualms whatever in waging war to defeat it." We are our own worst enemy you "slow to get it" idiot. Its folks like you who got us into this farking mess.
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Joe Bacon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
8. You want a reason Andy? Look in the mirror!
Edited on Sun Mar-23-08 05:05 PM by Joe Bacon
When Liars like YOU torpedoed Hillary's health care reform proposal and send MILLIONS to their death because they have NO way to get health care...

When liars like YOU became so obsessed with Bill Clinton's penis and looked the other way when the Republicans became more and more Nazified...

When liars like YOU looked the other way when Steven Glass published his lies in The New Republic...

When liars like YOU send gay men to their deaths when you say how wonderful being HIV+ is...

When liars like you pooh pooh anti-Gay Marriage initiatives pushed by the Nazi Republican Party and liars like YOU pull out the old Federalist bromide about it's OK to have rights in SOME states and not others (tell that to African Americans, Andy!) and liars like YOU ignore the damage done to all americans by the persecution of gays...

When liars like YOU go after Bill Clinton for his immorality while liars like YOU go on the internet advertising for multiple sex partners...

When YOU engaged in full blown character assassination of Al Gore and endlessly kissed George W Bush's ass as Bob Somerby has carefully documented in The Daily Howler at http://www.dailyhowler.com/ ...

When liars like YOU mutate from being journalists to Pre$$titutes...

YOU know why YOU got Iraq wrong and for the rest of your wretched life YOU will NEVER be able to wash the blood of millions of innocent people off of your hands no matter how hard you try!




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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Good post! n/t
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irishvet Donating Member (6 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. What a a-hole!!
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driver8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #8
50. Amen!!
Great post...I wish I had written it.
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jimshoes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
11. So glad ya came around Andy.
Now get busy and start fixing some of the shit you've helped happen these last 7 long years.
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
12. I haven't been wrong about Bush yet, Sully
And the reason is this: I knew from my first sighting of him prior to campaign 2000 that he was a narcissist and a psychopath, plus I knew the history of the Bush family.

But the easiest way to gauge the Bushies is to simply predict the lowest possible thing they could do -- the most scurrilous and gutterball actions. They will always go even lower. You'll never be wrong.
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jhrobbins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #12
41. I have said this on many occasions here - that I knew that GWB
was not what he portrayed early in the 2000 campaign when he was asked by Tucker Carlson(of all people) what did he think that Karla Faye Tucker would say to him if she had the chance and GWB mocked her in a whiny voice - 'Please don't kill me, please don't kill me'. I knew then just what kind of man we were dealing with and I have been proven right time and time again.
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Demeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 04:46 PM
Response to Original message
13. Who Is This Full-of-Himself Idiot?
Still think Vietnam was a just war, and the Peace Movement a shame? THAT'S where you went wrong--something inside you is broken, and shall never be repaired--your sense of reality, ethics, and the world. You think Might makes Right--and Bush is just an aberration.
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scarface2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
21. you gotta be an asshole to have believed bush!
iraq was is and never will be a threat.....the rest is total bullshit and anybody who didn't figure that is as stupid as a potato!!
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Doctor_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 05:47 PM
Response to Original message
22. He's a full-blown self-deluding nut job
Edited on Sun Mar-23-08 05:48 PM by TOJ
"I was reassured by the experience and intelligence and pedigree of Cheney and Rumsfeld and Powell"

Cheney and Rumsfeld's only pedigrees are as psychopathic criminals who would be in prison in any real democracy. If this is supposed to be a believable excuse, it missed by a mile.

Sounds to me like he's planning to fall in love with McCain
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 06:33 PM
Response to Original message
23. His self-justification consists of a stinking pile of lies going back decades
I will take special exception to his claim that during the Reagan years the American left "excused inexcusable tyrannies" -- simply because the era provides an excellent compact overview of what the US military-industrial complex and an interventionist foreign policy actually accomplishes:

During that era, America's conservatives enthusiastically supported the wholesale slaughter of Guatemala's indigenous population and a string of deathsquad dictatorships in El Salvador. They privately raised funds for the CIA's so-called contras in Nicaragua, a group of terrorists who targeted innocent civilians and blew up local health-clinics. They supported the apartheid regime in South Africa. All this was done in the name of "anti-communism," but it was really about maintaining elite control and frightening the neighbors into compliance by a reign of terror. When the Reaganites armed the so-called "mujahideen" (the fundamentalist extremists in Afghanistan) and trained them in the use of terrorist tactics, the left tried to warn the US about the consequences. When the Reaganites lied about human rights problems in Iraq and armed Iraq to encourage further slaughter in the Iran-Iraq war, the left objected. This list could be extended, but the point should be clear

Anyone who did not live through that period, but who has paid attention in recent years, can accurately guess the response of the American media and American government to such objections: conservatives, again and again, appeared in the press and on television and in Congressional hearings to misrepresent what the left said. Our objections to slaughter in Central America, our objections to apartheid in South Africa, our objections to the were "mujahideen" -- all were widely portrayed as evidence of "pro-Sovietism" and as a lack of patriotism. Similarly, objections to arming Iraq were portrayed as evidence that one loved Iran more than America. During the late Reagan and early Bush I years, objections that the US was rearming the Khmer Rouge were met with vigorous Administration denials -- together with vigorous lobbying efforts by the Administration to ensure that Congress did not take any official action to prevent such rearming

We eventually won one of these fights: supporting the South African racists became politically unpopular, despite the enthusiasm of American conservatives. In Central America, unfortunately, we merely succeeded in scaling down the bloody attacks somewhat

I doubt whether anyone could impartially survey the human rights record of the US during that period and conclude that the conservatives really gave a damn about anything except their killing machines
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #23
32. And these are also the reasons
These are the very reasons, for me, to question the results of the 2000 election. After the election debacle there was one artfully placed piece of propaganda after another. Remember how the Clinton Administration "trashed" the White House when they left office? These little ditties came every day. They were smokescreens. Contrast the noble Bush with that low life Bill Clinton. It was the same old dirty trick squad that operated under Nixon and Reagan. And they were the party of "values". I knew right from the start they were lying about the war in Iraq. It is their MO. What do they do? They lie, it is a simple as that.

Lets spread some democracy! It's just like peanut butter, I can't wait to spread some on Iran.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-23-08 10:12 PM
Response to Original message
30. Yeah, I know Andrew Sullivan
helped get bush in with his support on m$$m but he has changed his mind and he writes about it. There are lots of idiots who still support the war on Iraq so I give credit to the ones who have come around.

I was out protesting in 20 degrees for hours, with thousands and thousands in NYC, and millions across the Planet when The World Says No To War on Feb, 15, 2003. If I had read Obama's "Speech" in Oct 2002 earlier I would have supported him from the outset.
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DeSwiss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 03:22 AM
Response to Original message
33. What a crock.....
Andrew tells us that his "support for Bush was not deep. I thought he was an OK, unifying, moderate Republican who would be fine for a time of peace and prosperity." This of a man whose boyhood memories include blowing up frogs and inflicting frat pledges with hot brands. Whose adult business experience amounts to a trail of bankrupt oil companies, and yet who always seemed to fall ass-backwards into money and thus redefined the most basic tenets of business and finance.

And then the jewel in this mea culpa crown where he states that with Cheney (Nixon), Rumsfeld (Nixon) and Powell (My Lai coverup) he felt these three with experience, intelligence and pedigree reassured him about Bush? Please.

The saddest thing? "And for me, it was yet another epiphany about what American conservatism had come to mean." If he's that obtuse, its a wonder he can tie his own shoes.

- Probably wears a lot of loafers....

K&R
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skepticscott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 05:27 AM
Response to Original message
34. Acccckkkkkkkk!
Sorry Andrew, but your flowery mea culpa doesn't bring back one dead American soldier or one blown-to-bits Iraqi child. How long did you spend crafting this "apology" to make sure that it made you sound as good as possible?

In any event, your written self-recriminations, however sincere, are meaningless. We're not your confessors and we have no absolution to give you. If you want to make even a start at fixing even a little of the damage that you've helped inflict, stop your shameless self-promotion and spend the next ten years helping the families of American soldiers killed for the cause you foolishly and willingly supported, or spend that time working with Iraq veterans who've been physically or psychologically scarred for life, or better yet, go to Iraq, stay there, and get a daily, up close look at the kind of damage that arrogant and unwise words can bring about. And stop pretending that anyone should respect your judgement or take what you have to say seriously, ever again.
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 11:34 AM
Response to Original message
38. Error 0: I forgot it's wrong to invade a country that hasn't attacked us
That seems to be the big one.
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Donnachaidh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
39. And so the hair shirt has become fashionable for the pundits who worry about their careers
And the keening wails of *Bush fooled ME It's BUSH'S fault! I didn't know he was a moooon *great theatrical SOB* sterrrrrrrrrrr......

*yawn*

Yeah yeah, Andrew. You.were.fooled.just.like.the.rest.of.them. :sarcasm:

Personally, for some of these pundits, a month in a public stock stripped to their jockeyshorts MIGHT be enough punishment. MIGHT.
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DeSwiss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #39
56. Ooo, snap!
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Prophet 451 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
47. Well, it's a start
Sullivan seems to be gradually awakening to the fact that he's been in the wrong for most of his political life. With luck, he'll turn around entirely (as David Brock and Ariana Huffington have) and make amends for the damage he's done (as much as is possible).
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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
49. "revolted by the anti-war marches I saw"
Edited on Mon Mar-24-08 01:52 PM by Hissyspit
Fuck you, Sullivan.

That should have been a big clue right there, dumbass.




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Ellen Forradalom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 03:03 PM
Response to Original message
52. Another rat jumps off the sinking ship
:shrug:

nothing new there.
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GeorgeGist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
53. Oh Andy ...
forgive Jesus and move on.
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FightTheRight89 Donating Member (307 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 04:59 PM
Response to Original message
54. I oppose the war, but...
If it had all been over in six weeks like Rumsfeld promised, it would have been pretty awesome.
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-01-08 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #54
61. Yeah dude shock and awe is awsome. n/t
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MasonJar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-24-08 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
55. Bush even in one of his infamous gaffes like food on your family or
ob doctors making love to their patients across the nation even said that Saddam would not let the inspectors in when they were in country and he made them leave to escape the bombing campaign. W is a braindead, sociopathic, arrogant piece of white trash.
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DCKit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-25-08 06:52 AM
Response to Original message
58. Andrew Sullivan was complicit, along with the rest of the MSM bobbing head crew.
Everyone in the MSM had far more access and material resources than we did, yet they didn't know it was all lies?

If they are incapable of reading between the lines or, worse, reading the words of Hans Blix, Joe Wilson and the many, many others who had valid information, made a stand and chose to dispute the lies we were being told, they have no business presenting themselves as analysts, experts or news people - professionals are supposed to be cynical, dogmatic analysts, not cheerleaders.

Andrew Sullivan and his ilk will never convince me they were not complicit with the malAdministration, regardless of how much they now hate what they enabled. They're not simple whores, but treasonous, collaborating whores with low morals and no shred of patriotism.

At least Sullivan has the excuse of being born a ferner.
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diane in sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-26-08 02:28 AM
Response to Original message
60. I always knew Bush was a liar, but I was reading Ma Jones since the 70s. Anyone
in Washington who voted for that war is too stupid, evil or cynical to be in office.
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