Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

It's not a Recession or even a Depression that is coming, it is a Stagflationary Abyssal

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Editorials & Other Articles Donate to DU
 
stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-02-08 07:56 AM
Original message
It's not a Recession or even a Depression that is coming, it is a Stagflationary Abyssal
http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_steven_l_080402_it_s_not_a_recession.htm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
April 2, 2008

By Steven Leser

Abyssal –adjective 1. of or like an abyss; immeasurable; unfathomable from Dictionary.com

When I look at past economic downturns, I look at five key components to determine how bad they were and what the capabilities and challenges were in terms of getting the country out of the negative cycle. Those five key components are:


1. Consumer savings and spending/ability to spend
2. Corporate income, health and spending/ability to spend
3. Government financial health and ability to spend
4. The lending and banking system and its ability to extend credit
5. Inflation & scarcity of resources

Some people will look at my list and wonder why I don't talk about unemployment or the price of stocks or other indicators but those items are all symptoms of issues with the five primary items I listed. When corporate income is down affecting corporate health this affects stock prices, causes corporations to reduce spending and also results in layoffs and increasing unemployment. Layoffs and rising unemployment typically cause consumer ability to spend to go down, obviously among the people who are laid off but also among those who fear that they might be laid off and thus need to save their money to prepare just in case they lose their jobs.


The most recent recession of 2001-2002 was a result of problems primarily with #2 and a slight resultant hit on #1. Businesses were struggling and thus were not spending money on non essential items and as a result most firms that rely on corporate customers lost money. When they lost money, they laid people off. Unemployment rose, but those consumers who were not laid off kept spending and this kept the economy from experiencing much more serious issues. Throughout this period, the government was solvent, the lending and banking system lent huge amounts of money to businesses and individuals and prices were flat. With the more severe downturn of 1979, known as a global stagflation, items #1, #2 and #5 were the issues. You had double digit inflation and unemployment, corporate spending was down, it was a real mess. The great depression of 1929 featured massive problems with items #1, #2 and #4. Banks failed en masse, unemployment reached 25% with obvious implications on consumers' ability to spend. If 1/4 of the country's consumers didn't have money to spend, business income went way down and many companies failed completely. As bad as some of these bad economic times were, none of those historic downturns compare with what is coming.


The depression of 1929 was eventually cured by government spending. There is an argument as to whether peacetime government spending and programs before the outbreak of war officially ended the depression or whether government wartime spending ended it, but there is no argument as to where that spending originated. The government went into the red to spend money on employing people and buying goods and services. That got the economy going again. But the government was solvent going into the depression and was not saddled by trillions of dollars in deficits. Making it easier was that the depression, along with recessions like the one in 2001-2002 were more traditional downturns in that they did not have an inflationary component. Economists once thought that stagflation, the combination of rising prices and a recession economy, was not possible. The 1979 stagflation proved that it was possible. It creates an entirely new set of issues in trying to get the economy started again because the worry is that any steps that are taken may fuel additional inflation1.


Our current economic picture features serious issues with all five of my key components. Consumers have had a negative savings rate over the last 6-8 years, grew massive credit card and lending debts and have no more money to spend2 . Corporate income is down thus corporate spending is down3. Corporations have generally stopped hiring and some have started to lay people off, the unemployment rate is higher this year in almost every state than it was last year at this time4. The government is running at huge deficits and is hemorrhaging money on two wars after giving several massive tax cut giveaways 5 6 7 8. The government doesn't have the ability to spend us out of a major crisis. The lending and banking system is reeling from the mortgage and credit crises and as a result has very little money to lend to fund new ventures. Examples of this are the collapse of Bear Stearns and UBS' & Deutsche Bank's flirtation with insolvency9. When major Swiss banks like UBS flirt with failing, it's hard to argue against the idea that the economic sky is falling. Finally, inflation is on the rise, most people know about the huge rise in the price of oil and all the downstream price increases that this causes, but few in the US so far are aware that the entire world is experiencing a food shortage and thus food prices are rising separate from the fact that the price of transporting food is also increasing due to increasing fuel prices. We have experienced the beginnings of serious food price increases here in the US, but in the three month period from December 2007 to February 2008, France experienced a more than 40% increase in food prices. US consumer prices were up 4.1% in 2007, the sharpest increase in prices in 17 years (since 1990).1 That is just the beginning of the inflationary problems, particularly if the government starts throwing stimulus money at the situation.


When you have negative pressures from several of the key components, they reinforce each other and work together to drive the economy down. When it is all of them, the combined downward pressure on the economy has got to be immense. We don't know for sure how bad it is going to get because nothing like this has ever happened before. The only things that are better right now versus any other downturn is that if you compare our current issues with the 1929-1939 depression, we haven't had a major crash in stock prices and we have better regulations on the banking and financial markets (particularly on margin buying) as well as some governmental banking insurance like the FDIC. But how much ability does the FDIC/Federal government have to bail out the banks if they start failing with the severe deficits the federal government is already running? The economy is going to be at least bad enough so that we need a new name to call it. A recess is a small indentation while a depression is a larger hole, so I think this new worse economic crisis should by called an Abyssal, and since it comes with inflation, it will be a Stagflationary Abyssal.


How bad could this Abyssal get? It's always risky to try and predict things like this but I expect to see major corrections in the equity markets. I see a Dow in the 7000-9000 range, the S&P 500 struggling to stay over the 1000 mark and a NASDAQ in the 1400-1600 range. I see unemployment and inflation both between fifteen to twenty five percent. I see many consumers defaulting on their credit cards and the major crisis in the banking and lending industry will be compounded by hordes of consumers defaulting on their credit cards. As a result of these credit card defaults, more banks will fail and major banking insurers will fail as a result as well as investment funds and securities that are based on credit card debt. I believe there will be consumer and corporate bankruptcies on a massive scale. My next article will discuss in depth things that could be done to mitigate this coming crisis.


<1> OpEdNews.com - "Stagflation Returning to the US Economy after 30 years"http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_steven_l_080118_stagflation_returnin.htm



<2> AP (Via Yahoo) – US Consumer Spending Stalls, 3/28/2008 http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080328/bs_afp/useconomyconsumerincomespending_080328180248


<3> Yahoo News – Factory, Construction Activity Fall Again, 4/1/2008 http://news.yahoo.com/s/ibd/20080401/bs_ibd_ibd/20080401general


<4> FXStreet.com – US Regional and State Unemployment Rates for FEB – Stats, 3/30/2008 http://www.fxstreet.com/news/forex-news/article.aspx?StoryId=aea7fdc2-c8df-40a9-b1f5-f6d6c0055879


<5> uuforum.org (uses Congressional Budget Office Data) – US Budget, Deficit or Surplus, 1960-Present http://www.uuforum.org/deficit.htm


<6> Politico.com – Deficit war funding concerns economists, 4/1/2008 http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0308/9292.html


<7> Economic Policy Institute - NOBEL LAUREATES, 450 OTHER ECONOMISTS

FAULT BUSH TAX CUT PLAN, Dividend Tax Cut Called "Misdirected" http://www.epinet.org/newsroom/releases/03/02/030210-econltr-pr.pdf



<8> Wikipedia (quoting deficit data from the Congressional Budget Office) - Jobs and Growth Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2003 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jobs_and_Growth_Tax_Relief_Reconciliation_Act_of_2003


<9> AP (via Yahoo) – UBS, Deutsche Bank wallow in write-downs 4/1/2008 http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080401/ap_on_bi_ge/european_banks_2


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
LakeSamish706 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-02-08 08:11 AM
Response to Original message
1. So my question is, (Given the fact that probably 99.9 % of this was caused...
by the current Administration) why would 300 million plus people sit by for almost 8 years and allow this to happen to their country?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-02-08 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Boy do I wish I knew the answer to that question...
actually, I know the answer to the question, just not how to solve it. The answer is, people are too busy and don't feel like researching to understand what is happening in real time and what the effects of the government policies are likely to be. They trust the government and go about their busy lives.

How to solve that? Very good question.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sharesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-02-08 08:15 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. They thought it was just good times happily rolling along.
Buy a house with no money down and no visible income? Yippeee!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LakeSamish706 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-02-08 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. I really ask the question knowing full well that I am just as much to blame as others....
How to solve it at this stage, I don't have an answer to.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dhalgren Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-02-08 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. I'd break it down like this:
Part of the population are stupid - can't figure out what's going on.

Part of the population are cowards - afraid of being hurt, killed, or imprisoned.

Part of the population are selfish - they and their families are doing ok, so fuck it. (This group also includes those who are shortsightedly selfish, too, and don't seem to grasp that soon they will have nothing.)

Part of the population are lazy - they know what is going on, but it is just too hard and too complicated to get into. Someone else will deal with it.

And, of course, the part of the population that actually profit from all this mess, but I don't usually count them as "citizens"...

Have I left anyone out?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-02-08 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #7
22. blaming the people
The people hear no strong alternative narrative from us. That is where the fault lies, not with them.

Blaming the people is completely incompatible with any politics that can even remotely be called left wing.

If there were a left wing political movement, the people would respond. No left wing political movement can ever be built upon the premise that the people are stupid, lazy, and selfish. That is pure projection. It is we, the intellectuals who could be leading and building a left wing political movement who are lazy, stupid, and selfish, if anyone is.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dhalgren Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-02-08 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. I was not elitist enough to not include myself in the term. Maybe you need to
look a yourself a little more closely. And I realize that you have probably forgotten (if you ever knew), we had a huge leftist movement in the late sixties, early seventies that was crushed, brutally, by the government. People were killed, injured and imprisoned. People were beaten to pulps in the streets and the American people turned to and elected Richard Nixon. And since then we have had a succession of corporate lick-spittles in control of this country and the "people" don't give a rat's ass. The "people" don't even want universal health care because it sounds too "socialist", too "lefty". Don't harp on me with this "don't blame the people" bullshit. The "people" are just as capable of understanding what is going on as I am (or as you are); I am no better and no smarter than the "people" are (and neither are you). If the "people" don't "get" it, they are not paying attention. Is it difficult without any media support, to get the truth out? Hell yes it is. Is that an excuse for the "people" to be the way they are? Hell no, it isn't.

I don't know whether you have noticed or not, but the "people" love this "country" and are "proud to be an American"! Just let some African American preacher say "Goddamn America" and all hell breaks loose. But let our government kill a million innocent Iraqis in our name and , hey, "we support the troops!"

You can spew that elitist bullshit all you want, but the "people" are just as smart as you or I and they make their own decisions, just like you or I. You cannot shift the blame for the "people's" inaction off onto their "betters", because they don't have any "betters". Sure they can be stupid (as can you or I), they can be selfish (ditto) and greedy (ditto) and short-sighted (ditto) - and whose fault is it...theirs (and ours)...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-02-08 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. what are you talking about?
Who said anything about "betters?"

Why so angry?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dhalgren Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-02-08 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. I am angry because the people do not want to know the truth.
When you tell them the truth they either laugh at you, get angry at you, or call you a liar. You become marginalized and ostracized by the very ones you are trying to reach.

When you do actually get through to someone, they won't do anything, because it costs too much or it is too dangerous (socially, financially, as well as physically), or it's too hard and they have other things to do or their kids aren't old enough yet, but soon!

I have gone to meetings, rallies,and groups; I have urged, harangued, donated time, money, and skin and still had folks sitting on their hands. Then all most of the "progressives" can do is argue over which corporate candidate is the best and how it really is impossible to withdraw troops before the end of 2010 and maybe even not withdraw all of them!

Then I am told that I'm not doing enough and it is not "their" fault, but mine? Yeah, I get a little pissed. Sorry...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-02-08 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. understood
I thought you were angry at me.

I agree with everything you are saying here. I have had exactly the same experience. But those "progressives" at "meetings, rallies,and groups" are a very small percentage of the population, and are continually steering the political discussion to the right and sabotage everything on the left.

The general public is, on all but a handful of hot button issues which are not even political issues at all, far to the left of the activist community. The "progressive" activist community is the problem, not the general public.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Arctic Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-02-08 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. Thank you for this statement.
It is about as honest as I have read. Until we start to accept that we were part of the problem we will not become a successful movement again. I think what was considered "Left" has been sold out by the poeple in charge for their own benefit.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #26
35. "Until we start to accept that we were part of the problem "
RIGHT ON!!

Yet, even the slightest, kindest sort of hint of this, and we are excoriated.

Hated.

Ostracized.

What's funny is that, being poor, I'm often told that *I'm* part of the problem, and that's the "progressives" talking. They want us poor folk to "take responsibility for your situation". Just the same as conservatives.

Yet, they don't see their OWN complicity with the whole rotten system.

Pah!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
fasttense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-02-08 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #22
28. The intellectuals support the current administration.
Look at the supposed think tanks and Milton Friedman and his Chicago school idiots. They created this supposed meme of the "free market" and made up a computer model to say it was the best thing since sliced bread. Look a YOO and his spinning the law to authorize torture. No the intellectuals usually just provide justification for abuses until things start to fall apart.

That's why the intellectuals are frequently despised by the common man. That's why the initial Russian communist uprising attacked the intellectuals.

It's the radicals among the intellectuals that usually provide a solution. Not the well established cozy, well paid professors and scientific leaders who provide solutions.

But you are correct, there really is no viable left wing movement in the US right now. Where are the FDRs who warn about economic enslavement? Where are the Huey Longs? The closest we get is Obama and even he keeps his rhetoric focused on crap like hope and bipartisan government. Don't get me wrong, hope and bipartisan government is needed but that wont get us going in the right direction. That wont help us wage slaves and starving masses.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
n2doc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-02-08 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #1
9. And why will many of them vote for some more of McSame? n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-02-08 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. If what I forsee starts to come to pass before November, I can't see McCain as electable
First, he is already on record as saying his economic knowledge is weak. Second, he offers more of McSame oops, excuse me, I mean, more of the same. Even if he didn't the tendency to link someone of the same party as the person in power as BEING more of the same would be pretty strong.

If my predictions are even remotely correct, McCain's candidacy is doomed.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-02-08 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #9
21. We have no way of knowing who actually voted for Bushco
Since all of the elections lately have been blatantly rigged, there is a serious question as to who voted for them other than the people currently benefiting for this mess and those who thought they were going to benefit(The Fundies come to mind for the second category).

My guess is that 17-22% actually voted for these people. The real problem lies not in who voted for them, though, it's the problem of who didn't, and didn't call Bushco on their theft.

And BTW, that would be most of us here.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The2ndWheel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-02-08 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #1
12. Damn, I doubt something like this could be caused by a single administration
It's more like the accumulation of thousands of years of momentum. Which is probably a good answer to your question.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-02-08 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. Part of it absolutely is the fault of this administration as is the inability to be able to fix...
we could have had the government in the position to massively intervene. Without the Bush tax cuts and the Iraq war, we have a government running surpluses during all of the last eight years. THIS would be an acceptable reason to spend 500 Billion to a trillion dollars. That is to get the economy moving again. Do we have the open to buy now for the government to do that?

Also, most of the risky sub prime mortgage practices started under the nose of this administration.

So, no, ALL of the blame does not belong to BushCo, but much of it does and our inability to have the government step in in a big way absolutely is Bush's fault.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-02-08 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #1
17. They believe what they are told.
Edited on Wed Apr-02-08 09:25 AM by JDPriestly
If Morning Joe tells them everything is cool, then they live their day believing everything is cool, especially if Katie Couric repeats the meme in the evening news. And it becomes even more credible when they hear the same lie presented by the ever so sooting voices on NPR. Hey, honey, you're fine. That's not a crater up there. It's a little bump in the road. Everything's hunky-dory. After all, a Republican is in the White House which means the economy will be fine.

And of course everything is fine for the announcers on the TV and the top radio stations. They've got jobs, high salaries, great apartments in the big cities. They go to the cocktail parties, have weekend houses and money in the bank. What could be better? They never, ever, really get out and live it down like the rest of us. When was the last time you heard a report on TV or radio about the misery of the unemployed hoards over 50? And you would not be hearing about health insurance or the lack thereof if it were not for Kucinich and Edwards. Misery does not sell corn flakes, or candidates.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-02-08 08:14 AM
Response to Original message
2. recommend -- from this i have to wonder about a couple of things.
the first is how much will a slow down in western econo,ies -- and how much of a boomerang effect will that create?

and second -- how much western economies monies will flow to china, india, philipines, etc because of increased economic expansion there?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-02-08 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. I concentrated on mostly the US with some Western Europe references, but from everything I have seen
... this downturn is going to be global. In fact, since US consumerism fuels much of Asia's growth, Asia may feel the effects even worse than the West. What do they have to fall back on if the US and the rest of the West stops buying goods and services in general?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-02-08 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. Thanks....that part is little talked about.. When it is it's assumed the
rising "middle class" in India and China can pick up the slack from American's buying less. But, what never makes sense is how can the Middle Class of China and India keep rising if they get laid off because American's aren't buying their goods? Perhaps Russia, the Saudi's and those in the UAI's could pick up the slack...and maybe they will.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
fasttense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-02-08 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #10
29. The Asian countries are not even close to the American middle class.
Perhaps the handful of super wealthy in those countries come close but the most common job for a woman in India is still sweeper and for a man it is brick layer. Their department of labor still allows child labor. And China is even worse with slave labor and political imprisonments. Most of the middle class in these countries can't even afford to buy the products they make.

The Saudi's and UAI might be able to pick up the crashing consumer market but they don't like to spread the wealth around to the little guy and that's what you need to get a really big market going. Those oil rich countries in the middle east seem to want to keep the wealth in the hands of a few royals.

No the United States had the largest, richest, middle class and consumer market in the history of the world. But the republicans have managed to destroy it in just 30 short years. It started with Raygun and continued even with Clinton. The American worker and the middle class along with the huge consumer market they supported have been under attack for 30 years.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-02-08 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #5
13. that's what i'm wondering.
now of course x percentage of asian and south asian growth is going to go on simply because those countries have 'caught up' a good deal -- but what percentage takes a hit?

that led to ask how much investment money will we lose as a result.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-02-08 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #5
19. Monetarism=fetisism
Grantedly, money is the strongest fetish there is but in the end, nothing more. You can't eat money, heat your home with money. So if dollar looses its power fetish status (="US stops buying goods"), so what? The REAL big game is still same as ever, rivalry between empires for natural resources, and today with PO etc even more so. With dollar kaput and US dropping out of the financial buying game, their former lion's share free loot for other upstart robbers.

What economists call "gross global imbalances" in real terms means that Federal Reserve prints immense amounts of funny munny (with nothing but fools hopes to back it up - besides the threat of US military power) to hoard up a quarter of Earth's riches - only to instantly and totally mindlesly consume it into a filty pile of rubbish polluting everything and denying our children possibility to live decent lives.

In a nutshell: US consumerism is not only the biggest con job ever, but also the most devastating ever.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-02-08 08:28 AM
Response to Original message
8. Give me 'Jake the PLumber

Tvas a balmy summer's ivning, but zirro 'tvas below
De ren vas falling brightly, end de sun vas shining snow
Abe's barroom vas crowded; dere veren't meny pipple dere
Vhen all at vunce, in valked Jake de plomber
End everyvun begen to stare.
"Vat'll you hev, Jake" de bartender shouted,
"You look toisty, sir," he said.
But Jake said "Khah!" Like dat: "Khah-hah!
I only drink vhen odders trit."
Ve gave him vun drink . . . two drinks . . . tree drinks, four,
Of vatter. End Jake, Jake begen to get sore.
"Vunce," he said, "I vas a plomber.
I plombed by day; I plombed by night --
End believe me: dot's plombing.
Den I met a vimmen. She took everyting I hed, she left me notting.
Bartender!" he cried, "Bring me an angemarinierte herring on the house,
End I vill draw for you upon de floor
A pitchkeh from de vimmen vat ruhned my life."
He drew, and drew, and drew, and drew.
De eyes vas yes. De mout vas no.

Hyperventatlation fresh air is making junior an awful kind of guy.
De figure it vas tru to life.
And, from de rotten vay he drew,
Ve knew it vas: His vife.
Den, vhen he had finished, "How do you like it boyce?" he cried.
End ve all hollered, "Punk!"
Den, vid a leff, "Khah-hah!"
Or mebbe it vas a gron, who knows?
He fell, face forvard, on de pitchkeh
Dead. Drunk. From vatter.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-02-08 09:14 AM
Response to Original message
15. FYI, a few minutes ago, Bernake testified to congress about Recession coming
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NC_Nurse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-02-08 09:15 AM
Response to Original message
16. Excellent analysis. I look forward to your suggestions for mitigation of
this morass. Have you ever participated in the Stock Market Watch thread? It's in the Latest News forum.
We'd love to have you. :-) I mainly lurk there because I don't know shit about economics, but I have learned a lot.
I'm one of those people who has assets AND debt, and I'm not quite sure what to do next.
I have a house going on the market this month - great timing I know....:-(
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-03-08 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #16
31. Will do. I'll see you all over there! (nt)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-02-08 09:48 AM
Response to Original message
18. I concur with NC_Nurse above -- please come join SMW
I was led to this thread by a post in SMW this morning.

Your analysis, though a bit gloomy, is excellent, and I suspect it's correct, too. Of course, that could just be because I, non-economist that I am, have seen the same problems.

Good work!

:thumbsup:



Tansy Gold

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-02-08 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
20. Stagflation is the worst and the hardest to solve.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-03-08 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
30. Thought I would continue to post some updates... See this on unemployment
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080403/ap_on_bi_go_ec_fi/economy
Jobless claims shoot up to 2-year high


By JEANNINE AVERSA, AP Economics Writer
48 minutes ago



WASHINGTON - The number of new people signing up for unemployment benefits last week shot up to the highest level in more than two years, fresh evidence of the damage to a national economy clobbered by housing, credit and financial crises.

ADVERTISEMENT

The Labor Department reported Thursday that new applications filed for unemployment insurance jumped by a seasonally adjusted 38,000 to 407,000 for the week ending March 29. The increase left claims at their highest point since Sept. 17, 2005, following the blows of the devastating Gulf Coast hurricanes.

"This report supports the view that the jobs market is deteriorating toward recessionary conditions," said T.J. Marta, a fixed-income strategist at RBC Capital Markets.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cliss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-03-08 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
32. Are we entering a period of Abyssal Stagflation?
We'll find out soon enough. We already have a name for the new period we're entering.

I agree with you: I think we're headed into new, uncharted waters. I believe the government is absolutely powerless to do anything about this crisis (we're already there, they are just working 24/7 to hide it).
We're there.

One of the most alarming developments recently are the decisions about giving the Fed almost complete, unilateral power to infuse money, and make centralized decisions about the economy. This is a very recent development; it just happened within a week after the Bear Stearns bailout. It's alarming because the panic is now complete. There are no voices of dissent, no one to oppose these new power grabs.

In a sense, it doesn't really matter because our economy is completely dysfunctional. It's controlled by the Fed. There is no natural functioning any longer.

The most important issue, in my opinion, is to have enough food. I've been telling people to start hoarding food. Like you wrote above, food prices are escalating independently of fuel prices. = massive food shortage coming up.
We need to think about hoarding enough food to lasts about 6 months. It's really not that difficult or expensive.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-04-08 06:35 AM
Response to Original message
33. Another Update: Consumers late on all types of Consumer Loans
Another part of my prediction is starting to come true, the consumer lending issues have started to lead to defaults in non-housing consumer loans:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080403/us_nm/consumers_debt_study_dc

Late payments on consumer loans at 16-year high By Jonathan Stempel
Thu Apr 3, 3:57 PM ET

NEW YORK (Reuters) - More Americans have fallen behind on consumer loans than at any time in nearly 16 years, as credit problems once concentrated in mortgages spread into other forms of debt.

In a quarterly study, the American Bankers Association said the percentage of loans at least 30 days past due rose to 2.65 percent in the fourth quarter from 2.44 percent in the third quarter, and from 2.23 percent a year earlier.

The rate of delinquencies was the highest since a 2.75 percent rate in the first quarter of 1992. It provides a fresh sign the nation's economy is slowing, and may be in recession.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Locrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-04-08 11:09 AM
Response to Original message
34. the truth is out there, but its not as easy as you think

Dhalgren
I am angry because the people do not want to know the truth.

When you tell them the truth they either laugh at you, get angry at you, or call you a liar. You become marginalized and ostracized by the very ones you are trying to reach...




I understand your anger. You are trying to change information which you see as truth. Problem is that the information that is plain and obvious to you and me is not "truth" in the human sense. Truth to a human takes into account their entire psychology. Their existence and personal experience: all their faults etc.

And one of the real problems is that the dark side has a BIG advantage in ACTIVELY decieving and creating their own "truths". Please watch these videos on the history of advertising. Its far more than selling soap, its selling the "truth".

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8953172273825999151

Its four parts, several hours long. It will make you furious and cry (did me). But you will know what we are all up against.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Century_of_the_Self

Regards

(please note Im not talking truth in the sense of a physical "law" of nature, but in a human state of mind)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
workoholic Donating Member (13 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 06:34 PM
Response to Original message
36. Politically correct words to describe a recession
that might turn into a depression if McCain wins.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Wed Apr 24th 2024, 09:19 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Editorials & Other Articles Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC