Texas raid on polygamists an outrage

[madmusic]

Texas raid on polygamists an outrage
Nobody seems to question another military-style assault on a fringe sect

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/texas-raid-compound-2019870-children-right

[YDogg]

1. child brides unavailable for comment

[madmusic]

2. Because there might not be any

Tune in at Eleven for trial by media!

[dkf]

3. They found over 100 pregnant teenagers.

[madmusic]

5. Source?

If you please.

[dkf]

8. Heard on CNN.

Actually I'm not sure if they meant that 100 girls had been pregnant while teens or if they had 100 teen girls who were pregnant.

All I know is it was on the ticker but I was only half way tuning in at work.

[madmusic]

31. Exactly.

Trial by media and unsubstantiated facts or maybe no facts at all. We don't know yet.

[dkf]

36. I think it might have been on a Nancy Grace fill in too.

I can't believe how obsessed CNN has been.

I was forced to watch it by MSNBCs doc block and repeats. I can't stand watching that Prison stuff. Why am I supposed to find it interesting? Its so damned unpleasant.

[BlueCaliDem]

49. How do you know the facts are unsubstantiated?

Do you have any privileged information making you second-guess a judge and the Texas authorities? If so, share them, otherwise you're as in the dark as we are - only, you're on the other side of the debate; on the side that now, in accordance with U.S. laws, must disprove physical, medical reports, and the 8 young women who have chosen to keep away from Pedophile's Paradise there.

For me, where there's smoke, there's fire. Since the women all lie through their teeth, they keep shuffling the younger, pregnant girls around, giving them different names and forcing their silence, so it's no stretch of the imagination they'll force the girls to lie about their age, that's why it's so hard to get information from them.

That one polygamist woman on, I believe, "Good Morning America" or something, would not answer (I believe it was Ann Curry interviewing them) if there were underaged girls being forced to marry far older men.

She would not answer. Neither did the other five with her. Instead, she kept coming back to "I don't force my children to do anything. I love them. We all love our children." That tells me enough.

My heart goes out to those young girls and turn icy against those women who should know better. I know what it's like to be molested by older men as a child as young as 6, and I know the horror and fear they must've suffered.

So, you'll have to forgive me if I'm not all that compassionate towards their religious plight and their sense of "state prosecution". They knew the laws but chose to break them.

They wanted to dance so now they'll have to pay the piper. I'm rooting for the Piper.

[bhikkhu]

51. Including a 16 yr old girl, who has 4 children already.

That was on NPR the other day.

[BlueCaliDem]

52. Wow. I didn't know this. I only read and heard that...

... the initial caller, this mysterious "Sarah" was a 30-year-old woman from Oregon, I believe.

Still, she should be honored, not persectuted because even if she doesn't know it, she's helped hundreds of vulnerable, helpless young girls from being raped by pedophiles using religion freedom as a shield as well as a weapon to keep getting their ways.

They should all be taken into custody and tried and convicted for child rape, soliciting sex with a minor, and defrauding the Welfare system for starters.

They should be treated like any other sexual predator.

I've got nothing against polygamy. There are women {believe it or not} who choose a polygamist lifestyle for whatever insane reason they may have. I guess they didn't get part of the bible {being Christians and all} where Jesus reminded his disciples when questioned about Moses' law of divorce and he answered: "In the beginning, god created man, and he created woman, and what god has brought together, let no man take apart."

Didn't see where it's written "In the beginning, god created man and as many women as that man could handle." Perhaps my bible needs revising. :-D

I just don't understand a religion/cult that has the original founder say: "If they're old enough to bleed, they're old enough to breed." seeing that, well, girls get their first cycle between ages 11-13 {nowadays some are getting theirs at NINE years old!}.

[sagesnow]

59. Are FLDS Women Brainwashed? Alternet.org

Found this article on FLDS Women at Alternet.org
Posted by Sara Robinson, Orcinus at 10:41 AM on April 18, 2008.
http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/82763/
Are FLDS Women Brainwashed?
"Almost every feature of these women's lives is determined by someone else.
They do not choose what they wear, whom they live with,
when and whom they marry, or when and with whom they have sex."

This article also mentions this book about the FLDS sect of the Mormon Church:
Jon Krakauer's "Under the Banner of Heaven"

[lligrd]

4. These Polygamists Have Been Thumbing Their Nose At

society for a long time. They have openly admitted to taking child brides on tv shows and to living off of welfare money for their numerous wives and kids. These wives and kids may think they have a choice buy by separating them from society they really don't.

[kestrel91316]

6. Why are you supporting child rapists??

http://origin.sltrib.com/ci_8981942

What part of "pregnant children" don't you get?

[madmusic]

10. Oh, quit it....

That accusation is so cliche it's nauseating. Cite proof that any of the pregnant or married women were not women but were underage children. Proof. Not media hyped reports.

So here's where we are:

No complaining victims exist and the original abuse allegations were fraudulent, pumped up in the media by anti-polygamist activists.

No pregnant girls were found at the YFZ Ranch who were under 16 (the legal marriage age in Texas, with parental consent).

The most troubling outstanding claim: A CPS investigator testified one FLDS woman "may" have given birth as young as 13, which of course also means she "may" not have done so. The same CPS investigator, Angie Voss, also testified yesterday that an FLDS woman told her "Sarah" does exist and does have a baby, something all FLDS sources deny, and which we now know is likely not true.

More than 400 kids have been removed from their homes at state expense as a result of this fraud, generating court proceedings that are presently descending into farce.

Can the Judge put a stop to this now, please? Identify any individual cases that can be actually proven (I doubt there are any; five pregnant girls between 16 and 19 does not an abuse case make) and send the rest of the group and their lawyers home with the thanks and apologies of the court.

http://gritsforbreakfast.blogspot.com/2008/04/phone-call-alleging-abuse-at-yfz-was.html

[kestrel91316]

14. DFPS and the judge certainly seem to think, based on physician's

examination of the children, that they have a number of pregnant children on their hands.

But why don't you just go into that courtroom and tell them YOU have got the facts and THEY are all wrong.

And perhaps you could ask those 400 attorneys why they are being derelict in failing to point out how the child they are each representing is actually an adult.

Do you have a clue how moronic you sound??

[madmusic]

23. "a number"

What is that number? What are their ages? Are they legally able to marry in Texas or not? Do you have an inkling? You should go into the court room and tell them. Take Nancy Grace with you.

[kestrel91316]

The physicians and the judge and DFPS certainly know.

[sam sarrha]

17. it's one thing to be the Devil's Advocate, but another to be delusional.. or worse,

[madmusic]

25. Agreed

The media is delusional unless it waits for facts. Look at everyone here parroting all those "facts."

[kestrel91316]

35. Excuse me for parroting a summary of court proceedings

published in a major newspaper. My bad. I should have gone with a reliable source like an anonymous blog opinion.

[sam sarrha]

44. you made your point.. every one has one.. some are based on better information than others

[jwirr]

46. By law, if there is a call of abuse it must be investigated. The call

of the 16 year old girl would have triggered an investigation regardless of immediate proof. Also isn't one trial over already? That of the leader?

[TankLV]

48. The courts, the CHILDREN and the FACTS disagree with you...

[bow-tie]

54. I can't believe

your response to this, proof it you say. I think the numbers here are proof enough. Do you go along with this kind of thing? Wow.

[sam sarrha]

12. YES...YES...YES..!!! Make em pay child support for every one and all the welfare money back.!!!!!!

thanks for the link

[kestrel91316]

7. Until the website crashed today, the Texas DPFS was reporting that

18 children were IMMEDIATELY taken into protective custody when they went onto the ranch. These were, according to all accounts, obviously pregnant children.

The only kind of person who would think THE CHILD RAPE wasn't the real outrage here are pedophiles.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sam sarrha]

9. they went in because the girl that called was being and had been raped by a known child molester

probably since she was 12, maybe earlier.

the women there are treated like slaves, their children are slaves, the girls are chattel between numerous child molesters.. the give and take for a guaranteed constant supply of children to rape, and forced labor to monetarily enrich themselves

i am not outraged, except this wasnt done sooner, everyone around knows about it

[madmusic]

15. You mean this 12-year-old?

Rangers confirm probe of Springs woman's calls
By Kirk Mitchell
The Denver Post
Article Last Updated: 04/19/2008 12:52:01 AM MDT

Rozita Swinton was arrested on a charge of false reporting in February. (Colorado Springs Police)
Related

Texas officials confirmed Friday that a Colorado Springs woman is a "person of interest" regarding telephone calls placed to a crisis hotline before a massive child-protection raid on a polygamist compound.

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_8971925

[sam sarrha]

19. that has absolutely nothing to do with the case in this discussion..

[madmusic]

21. Why do you say that?

[sam sarrha]

37. she wasnt part of this group. th girl that calld on this group was a sex slave of a known convicted

Pedophile..

your example is not revalent to this case, she wasn't a Mormon, had nothing to do with this compound.

[kestrel91316]

16. Get used to this, Sam. DU unfortunately has at least half a dozen

people who actually support what FLDS was doing to those kids and/or maintain that the children don't have Constitutional rights because they are essentially property.

[madmusic]

20. essentially property!

What a clever sound bite that is.

[kestrel91316]

55. Some of us have and use a vocabulary of more than 100 words.

You might want to try it some time.

[sam sarrha]

22. i know.. is it against the rules to poke them with a stick for being so F'n stupid..??

[kestrel91316]

27. They're not stupid, Sam. They are living proof that evil truly exists.

[madmusic]

28. Evil!

They hate us for our freedoms! We're all going to die!

[kestrel91316]

34. You may find child rape, infant torture, child abandonment,

and reproductive slavery a laughing matter. I don't.

[juno jones]

57. And babyland.

A lot of boys got dumped out on the streets at adolescence but I was alarmed to hear that there are 2 girls to one boy in that place. Maybe the unmarked graves in their 'babylands' have more than just congenitally deformed infants in them.

[sam sarrha]

40. the women and children there had NO FREEDOMS they were slaves the women were sex slaves, just brood

mares, to birth baby girls the men could trade to other pedophiles for their children so it looked somewhat _____..i just cant say respectable.. i am too sickened

[TankLV]

50. wow - all I can say about you...you are certainly a case...

[sam sarrha]

42. no... ignorance is not evil.. tho it can cause people to do evil.. he might wake up some day

[Liberal Gramma]

13. This one's a tough call, hard to make without all the facts

I do believe in individual freedom...providing it doesn't impact another's freedom. If there were truly pregnant children, it was justified. If the women were truy enslaved, it was justified.

[madmusic]

18. I agree

Would you agree that we don't have enough, no, any, evidence yet to make a rational conclusion? And would you agree that if the females were of legal age the state grossly overstepped its authority?

That's my only point.

[kestrel91316]

29. The judge appears to be listening to facts. She even appears

to have enough to have already come to one conclusion: that these children are in danger of abuse and/or have already been abused.

How is it that you have SO much more information about this case than her? Do tell.

[sam sarrha]

56. my point is that you dont have any evidence either, this is an ongoing investigation, they arent

releasing much now... that doesn't mean they don't have any.. they wont release anything that the media theater can twist into something that will jeopardize the case.

you are coming across like you blindly support the Pedophile slavers.. it isn't like the law and millions of people didn't know this was going on.. the first big break was the federal involvement.. finally superseding the local police who protected them for decades.

many women have escaped similar compounds and told the same stories about slavery, pedophilia and rape.. but they needed evidence and a reason for a warrant.. i have been aware of this for about 25 years.. .. it isnt like the reason to go in was just made up.

[kestrel91316]

24. The judge has the facts. Just watch her.

[sam sarrha]

30. i worked in Juvenile Parole..40 miles from Utah.. my boss was a Mormon, i am GLEEFULLY waiting for

results of this event it is Despicable that it has taken this long to break these slaver Pedophile rings

my boss eluded to what was going on, expressed disgust, he wasn't much of a Mormon, just joined so the family would leave him alone.. please dont think many people in Utah are surprised about this, it is a constant source of shame and embarrassment to the real Mormons.

[kestrel91316]

38. My dad's family were Mormon (and I claim descent from MANY

polygamists, though I don't offhand recall any of them going after jailbait) - they always used to get so disgusted about those nuts down in southern UT with their fundie crap.

[sam sarrha]

41. i do not believe Polygamy is the real issue here.. i see nothing wrong with freely choosing to live

that life style, really i could use some help around here... i am not being flippant either.

in the 80's i lived with 2 women who shared me with 3 others.. they didn't want a man in their life, but they occasionally borrowed one.. when i found out they all knew each other, it freaked me out.. we all showed up at the same table at a restaurant.. they told me it was OK.. as long as i could keep it up. i lived there about 5 years, peoples living arrangements are not a problem.. i wish there were 4 of us here paying the rent and upkeep..

the difference here is slavery and pedophilia, and incest.. because after a while they have to interbreed to provide a constant supply of little girls

[kestrel91316]

43. I don't think most people on DU (me included) think polygamy

per se is fundamentally wrong. What consenting adults do in private is really their own concern. The only consideration is if anyone else is being adversely affected by their behavior.

The FLDS case is about child sexual abuse, child abandonment, and the systematic grooming of children to accept abuse as normal and proper.

[sam sarrha]

33. it will take a while for the facts to be collected.. we wont be told everything because it is court

evidence.. they need to separate the individuals from the slave masters, th let the Stockholm Syndrome wear off, i believe most are terrified about reprisals from the Slavers..

they are not capable of making rational decisions at this time

i was kidnapped by the Moonies in 1978 for 3 weeks.. i met a lot of Zombies, no difference in this situation, a slave is a slave.. they need a chance to choose if they want to go back to hell for ever

[BillE]

26. Polygamy is NOT the issue..

Rape, child abuse, pedophilia, and other issues all masquerading as religious freedom. There were several threads about what was actually happening, but can't remember which ones. Given the conditions I believe the raid was appropriate (though the tanks may have been a bit much)

[sam sarrha]

32. you forgot a really big issue.. that is the inherant Slavery, that these rings are based on

[kestrel91316]

39. From what I have read, it seems the tank or APC or whatever

was there just in case they had to make an escape under gunfire with the girl who claimed she needed rescue. I also read that when things went peacefully, the little boys were all climbing on it and having their pics taken.

I don't happen to believe the folks screaming that this was a military-style raid. If a single shot had been fired, or a gun pulled on anybody (other than during the two arrests), we'd never hear the end of it.

[jwirr]

45. In case you have missed it this kind of "raid" happens in most reported

child abuse cases. The police and social workers often move in to take the children out of their homes when child abuse is involved. You call it military like - I call it armed arrests. There is little actual difference between the actions taken in these arrests and military actions in that they are ordered to go in by authorities and they are usually armed. How would you go in to rescue an abused child? Would you go unarmed if you were unsure of the situation you were going to face? As a social worker I know just how dangerous it can be to investigate this type of case. We used to have to do it without police protection.

[TankLV]

47. I''m sure if you were being ABUSED like these CHILDREN were by the DIRTY OLD MEN, you'd think

differently - BIGTIME...

It's about PROTECTING THE CHILDREN & ABUSED WOMEN...

[kimmerspixelated]

53. That's right,

Any one who doesn't understand the need to protect children from pediophiles, is probably a pediophile ! EWW!!...I would like to nail their dick to a stump and set their small miniscule weinie on fire and then give them a knife!

[madmusic]

58. Let us evaluate

Meek and abused FLDS woman: "I have a right to worship any damn thing that I want and wear any damn clothes that I want and I'm sick of hearing how stupid and retarded we are."

Strong-willed better woman: "It's my body and I have a right to kill my offspring if I want to."

Which would you trust to protect children?

Now, if children were actually abused as you claim, that is one thing; but so far there is no evidence of that, only speculation. The pregnant "teens" are so far of legal age.

What is interesting is the reliance on false reports in this thread. There was as far as we know no 16-year-old abused girl that called. Her abuser was not a registered sex offender and he has been cleared as not even being in the state. No evidence so far that younger girls were pregnant or gave birth despite news reports to the contrary. The "temple bed" for sex was a product of projection rather than an actual bed for sex.

Maybe DNA testing will prove some were impregnated before being of age, maybe not. Even if so, should children of of-age mothers be taken captive or should specific criminal acts be investigated? If there was cause to investigate, fine, but there was no need for a military style invasion and maybe no need to take ALL of the children. Think of the trauma they must be suffering for their own good. We'll see how this plays out. Maybe the government came to the rescue, maybe it will be another Mike Nifong moment on a much grander scale.

http://messengerandadvocate.wordpress.com/2008/04/18/texas-judge-rules-all-416-must-remain-in-state-custody/#more-369

As for the removal being granted, no one who has experience with CPS cases is surprised. Typical Removal hearings are held so quickly (it used to be within 24 hours) that there is very rarely any reliable evidence for the judge to hang a ruling on. As a result, much like with applications for protective orders, judges tend to err on the side of caution, knowing that he or she will have several opportunities in the future to return the kids if the agency still hasn't managed to dredge up anything. In fact, in nearly ten years of CPS cases, I have only seen a judge deny a removal petition exactly once, and that was only after I (as ad litem for the children) demonstrated that the CPS caseworkers (who were from out of county and declined to even show up for the hearing) had committed perjury in their affidavits. In this case, the Removal hearing took longer to set up, but the sheer overwhelming numbers made it extremely difficult to get any straight answers, especially when CPS insists on calling "expert" witnesses who freely admit on cross-examination that everything they know about the case in general and the FLDS in particular comes from watching television. Stay tuned.
http://thelocalcrank.blogspot.com/2008/04/eldorado-round-up.html

[tomreedtoon]

60. Raping children should be done in the privacy of a confessional.

Or a Congressman's office. Organize a cult to do it? That's far too open and democratic. It makes it look like ordinary people can perform destructive sexual acts without running for office or receiving Holy Orders first, and that's just wrong.