Clueless in America

[katty]

more:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/22/opinion/22herbert.html?em&ex=1209009600&en=06fa0cda22fca02a&ei=5087%0A

By BOB HERBERT
Published: April 22, 2008

We don’t hear a great deal about education in the presidential campaign. It’s much too serious a topic to compete with such fun stuff as Hillary tossing back a shot of whiskey, or Barack rolling a gutter ball.

The nation’s future may depend on how well we educate the current and future generations, but (like the renovation of the nation’s infrastructure, or a serious search for better sources of energy) that can wait. At the moment, no one seems to have the will to engage any of the most serious challenges facing the U.S.

An American kid drops out of high school every 26 seconds. That’s more than a million every year, a sign of big trouble for these largely clueless youngsters in an era in which a college education is crucial to maintaining a middle-class quality of life — and for the country as a whole in a world that is becoming more hotly competitive every day.

[Juche]

1. Define education

People who aren't introspective or critical thinkers, no matter how much education they have, are going to make poor citizens. People who are not open to new ideas or willing to examine why they hold the ideas they already hold aren't going to contribute as much to society because they may hold faulty ideas for decades and never realize it.

[rainy]

2. Good teaching imparts understanding. Most people are capable of complex

thoughts and can learn what the teacher is teaching. They just need to be educated.

[Juche]

4. Michael Savage has a PhD from UC Berkeley

He isn't educated and is a bonafide fascist. I know people with postgraduate degrees who are illiterate in civics. I just don't get the idea that more education is necessarily a cure for what ails America. I know a variety of well educated people who lack rudimentary critical thinking skills. By critical thinking I mean what they believe falls apart under superficial inspection and they have never bothered to do it, or they make leaps of logic to justify pre-existing opinions.

Then again people with college degrees are more likely to vote, volunteer and pay more in taxes while using less services.

http://tsp.convio.net/site/PageServer?pagename=societal_benefits_of_higher_education

[rainy]

8. It's not more education but the right education. The media could be legitimate

teachers as long as it was telling the truth.

[katty]

3. very enlightened points, unfortunately the mass of humanity

has not reached a stage wherein "introspection and critical thinking" is truly valued for the purposes of service to others or for the common good. I don't necessarily agree that those who "aren't introspective and critical thinkers" make, on the whole, "poor citizens". There are millions of really good, kind and giving individuals in the world who give and care everyday and many are not thinking "introspectively nor critically" at all-they are simply helping others-IMO that is the 'core' definition of a decent person & a good citizen.

-your second comment to new ideas...concur, the way the world operates is clear evidence to your point-however, there are always exceptions.

[Juche]

5. An example from Susan Jacoby

Susan Jacoby gives an example of what I'm saying. In the US you hear alot of people who are opposed to universal healthcare say 'in those systems you don't get to pick your own doctor', they are claiming they are opposed to UHC because it will limit doctor choices.

1. In many other OECD countries you can pick any provider you want. So it is patently false. In places like Japan or Taiwan you can see anyone you want.

2. In the US you are limited in which doctor you can see based on what your PPO allows you to see, and who they will reimburse you for seeing. So your options are limited here, not there.

It is things like this that need to be addressed. The fact that people form complex opinions on civic issues based on false premises ('in those systems you don't get to pick your own doctor'), premises that fall apart after being examined superficially. But nobody in the media or in the public has bothered to expose these things as false. So people make decisions based on false ideas, which is no different than running your life on superstition. Some of the people who do this are highly educated too. So k-12 & college education is not a cure.

I have more examples if you want them.

[katty]

7. points you provide, well taken and concur re: your example that

your comment: ...decisions based on false ideas, which is no different than running your life on superstition. In fact, that is true, but superstition with a twist, that being
'deliberate intent to deprive or deceive the people' because so-called thinking, educated people are choosing a system based on false 'ideas'?...more false advertising... I would comment that it is false because there is an 'intent to profit$ mightily', not (based on good ideas and/or facts that bend toward more profit than real service) provide what is correct, fact based and just.
I would just comment that it may be a miracle of the human spirit that even superstitious people, with no or a great education, are still capable of and continue to offer assistance, real caring to their fellow citizens often under horrific conditions, with respect to being a "good citizen".

[zalinda]

6. Well, too bad our education candidate

is no longer in the running. I haven't heard or read anything about issues since he left.

zalinda

[FrenchieCat]

9. Hillary doesn't want her voters educated. That would make her lose.

Just like she prefers that as many White folks as possible be bigots, cause then she wins.

[midnight]

10. The reason we can't affor to talk about education in America

is because we are putting that money into wharehousing people in prison. Not sure the tradeoff makes sense, but we are a danger and must be locked up.