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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-14-08 03:20 PM
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MUST READ!... The End of Wall Street by Michael Lewis

by Michael Lewis Nov 11 2008

The era that defined Wall Street is finally, officially over. Michael Lewis, who chronicled its excess in Liar’s Poker, returns to his old haunt to figure out what went wrong.

To this day, the willingness of a Wall Street investment bank to pay me hundreds of thousands of dollars to dispense investment advice to grownups remains a mystery to me. I was 24 years old, with no experience of, or particular interest in, guessing which stocks and bonds would rise and which would fall. The essential function of Wall Street is to allocate capital—to decide who should get it and who should not. Believe me when I tell you that I hadn’t the first clue.

I’d never taken an accounting course, never run a business, never even had savings of my own to manage. I stumbled into a job at Salomon Brothers in 1985 and stumbled out much richer three years later, and even though I wrote a book about the experience, the whole thing still strikes me as preposterous—which is one of the reasons the money was so easy to walk away from. I figured the situation was unsustainable. Sooner rather than later, someone was going to identify me, along with a lot of people more or less like me, as a fraud. Sooner rather than later, there would come a Great Reckoning when Wall Street would wake up and hundreds if not thousands of young people like me, who had no business making huge bets with other people’s money, would be expelled from finance.

When I sat down to write my account of the experience in 1989—Liar’s Poker, it was called—it was in the spirit of a young man who thought he was getting out while the getting was good. I was merely scribbling down a message on my way out and stuffing it into a bottle for those who would pass through these parts in the far distant future.

Unless some insider got all of this down on paper, I figured, no future human would believe that it happened.

I thought I was writing a period piece about the 1980s in America. Not for a moment did I suspect that the financial 1980s would last two full decades longer or that the difference in degree between Wall Street and ordinary life would swell into a difference in kind. I expected readers of the future to be outraged that back in 1986, the C.E.O. of Salomon Brothers, John Gutfreund, was paid $3.1 million; I expected them to gape in horror when I reported that one of our traders, Howie Rubin, had moved to Merrill Lynch, where he lost $250 million; I assumed they’d be shocked to learn that a Wall Street C.E.O. had only the vaguest idea of the risks his traders were running. What I didn’t expect was that any future reader would look on my experience and say, “How quaint.”

I had no great agenda, apart from telling what I took to be a remarkable tale, but if you got a few drinks in me and then asked what effect I thought my book would have on the world, I might have said something like, “I hope that college students trying to figure out what to do with their lives will read it and decide that it’s silly to phony it up and abandon their passions to become financiers.” I hoped that some bright kid at, say, Ohio State University who really wanted to be an oceanographer would read my book, spurn the offer from Morgan Stanley, and set out to sea.

Somehow that message failed to come across. Six months after Liar’s Poker was published, I was knee-deep in letters from students at Ohio State who wanted to know if I had any other secrets to share about Wall Street. They’d read my book as a how-to manual.

In the two decades since then, I had been waiting for the end of Wall Street. The outrageous bonuses, the slender returns to shareholders, the never-ending scandals, the bursting of the internet bubble, the crisis following the collapse of Long-Term Capital Management: Over and over again, the big Wall Street investment banks would be, in some narrow way, discredited. Yet they just kept on growing, along with the sums of money that they doled out to 26-year-olds to perform tasks of no obvious social utility. The rebellion by American youth against the money culture never happened. Why bother to overturn your parents’ world when you can buy it, slice it up into tranches, and sell off the pieces?

At some point, I gave up waiting for the end. There was no scandal or reversal, I assumed, that could sink the system.

Then came Meredith Whitney with news. Whitney was an obscure analyst of financial firms for Oppenheimer Securities who, on October 31, 2007, ceased to be obscure. On that day, she predicted that Citigroup had so mismanaged its affairs that it would need to slash its dividend or go bust. It’s never entirely clear on any given day what causes what in the stock market, but it was pretty obvious that on October 31, Meredith Whitney caused the market in financial stocks to crash. By the end of the trading day, a woman whom basically no one had ever heard of had shaved $369 billion off the value of financial firms in the market. Four days later, Citigroup’s C.E.O., Chuck Prince, resigned. In January, Citigroup slashed its dividend.

From that moment, Whitney became E.F. Hutton: When she spoke, people listened. Her message was clear. If you want to know what these Wall Street firms are really worth, take a hard look at the crappy assets they bought with huge sums of ­borrowed money, and imagine what they’d fetch in a fire sale. The vast assemblages of highly paid people inside the firms were essentially worth nothing. For better than a year now, Whitney has responded to the claims by bankers and brokers that they had put their problems behind them with this write-down or that capital raise with a claim of her own: You’re wrong. You’re still not facing up to how badly you have mismanaged your business.

Rivals accused Whitney of being overrated; bloggers accused her of being lucky. What she was, mainly, was right. But it’s true that she was, in part, guessing. There was no way she could have known what was going to happen to these Wall Street firms. The C.E.O.’s themselves didn’t know.

Now, obviously, Meredith Whitney didn’t sink Wall Street. She just expressed most clearly and loudly a view that was, in retrospect, far more seditious to the financial order than, say, Eliot Spitzer’s campaign against Wall Street corruption. If mere scandal could have destroyed the big Wall Street investment banks, they’d have vanished long ago. This woman wasn’t saying that Wall Street bankers were corrupt. She was saying they were stupid. These people whose job it was to allocate capital apparently didn’t even know how to manage their own.

At some point, I could no longer contain myself: I called Whitney. This was back in March, when Wall Street’s fate still hung in the balance. I thought, If she’s right, then this really could be the end of Wall Street as we’ve known it. I was curious to see if she made sense but also to know where this young woman who was crashing the stock market with her every utterance had come from.

It turned out that she made a great deal of sense and that she’d arrived on Wall Street in 1993, from the Brown University history department. “I got to New York, and I didn’t even know research existed,” she says. She’d wound up at Oppenheimer and had the most incredible piece of luck: to be trained by a man who helped her establish not merely a career but a worldview. His name, she says, was Steve Eisman.

Eisman had moved on, but they kept in touch. “After I made the Citi call,” she says, “one of the best things that happened was when Steve called and told me how proud he was of me.”

Having never heard of Eisman, I didn’t think anything of this. But a few months later, I called Whitney again and asked her, as I was asking others, whom she knew who had anticipated the cataclysm and set themselves up to make a fortune from it. There’s a long list of people who now say they saw it coming all along but a far shorter one of people who actually did. Of those, even fewer had the nerve to bet on their vision. It’s not easy to stand apart from mass hysteria—to believe that most of what’s in the financial news is wrong or distorted, to believe that most important financial people are either lying or deluded—without actually being insane. A handful of people had been inside the black box, understood how it worked, and bet on it blowing up. Whitney rattled off a list with a half-dozen names on it. At the top was Steve Eisman.

Steve Eisman entered finance about the time I exited it. He’d grown up in New York City and gone to a Jewish day school, the University of Pennsylvania, and Harvard Law School. In 1991, he was a 30-year-old corporate lawyer. “I hated it,” he says. “I hated being a lawyer. My parents worked as brokers at Oppenheimer. They managed to finagle me a job. It’s not pretty, but that’s what happened.”

He was hired as a junior equity analyst, a helpmate who didn’t actually offer his opinions. That changed in December 1991, less than a year into his new job, when a subprime mortgage lender called Ames Financial went public and no one at Oppenheimer particularly cared to express an opinion about it. One of Oppenheimer’s investment bankers stomped around the research department looking for anyone who knew anything about the mortgage business. Recalls Eisman: “I’m a junior analyst and just trying to figure out which end is up, but I told him that as a lawyer I’d worked on a deal for the Money Store.” He was promptly appointed the lead analyst for Ames Financial. “What I didn’t tell him was that my job had been to proofread the ­documents and that I hadn’t understood a word of the fucking things.”

Ames Financial belonged to a category of firms known as nonbank financial institutions. The category didn’t include J.P. Morgan, but it did encompass many little-known companies that one way or another were involved in the early-1990s boom in subprime mortgage lending—the lower class of American finance.

The second company for which Eisman was given sole responsibility was Lomas Financial, which had just emerged from bankruptcy. “I put a sell rating on the thing because it was a piece of shit,” Eisman says. “I didn’t know that you weren’t supposed to put a sell rating on companies. I thought there were three boxes—buy, hold, sell—and you could pick the one you thought you should.” He was pressured generally to be a bit more upbeat, but upbeat wasn’t Steve Eisman’s style. Upbeat and Eisman didn’t occupy the same planet. A hedge fund manager who counts Eisman as a friend set out to explain him to me but quit a minute into it. After describing how Eisman exposed various important people as either liars or idiots, the hedge fund manager started to laugh. “He’s sort of a prick in a way, but he’s smart and honest and fearless.”

“A lot of people don’t get Steve,” Whitney says. “But the people who get him love him.” Eisman stuck to his sell rating on Lomas Financial, even after the company announced that investors needn’t worry about its financial condition, as it had hedged its market risk. “The single greatest line I ever wrote as an analyst,” says Eisman, “was after Lomas said they were hedged.” He recited the line from memory: “ ‘The Lomas Financial Corp. is a perfectly hedged financial institution: It loses money in every conceivable interest-rate environment.’ I enjoyed writing that sentence more than any sentence I ever wrote.” A few months after he’d delivered that line in his report, Lomas Financial returned to bankruptcy.

Eisman wasn’t, in short, an analyst with a sunny disposition who expected the best of his fellow financial man and the companies he created. “You have to understand,” Eisman says in his defense, “I did subprime first. I lived with the worst first. These guys lied to infinity. What I learned from that experience was that Wall Street didn’t give a shit what it sold.”

Harboring suspicions about ­people’s morals and telling investors that companies don’t deserve their capital wasn’t, in the 1990s or at any other time, the fast track to success on Wall Street. Eisman quit Oppenheimer in 2001 to work as an analyst at a hedge fund, but what he really wanted to do was run money. FrontPoint Partners, another hedge fund, hired him in 2004 to invest in financial stocks. Eisman’s brief was to evaluate Wall Street banks, homebuilders, mortgage originators, and any company (General Electric or General Motors, for instance) with a big financial-services division—anyone who touched American finance. An insurance company backed him with $50 million, a paltry sum. “Basically, we tried to raise money and didn't really do it,” Eisman says.

Instead of money, he attracted people whose worldviews were as shaded as his own—Vincent Daniel, for instance, who became a partner and an analyst in charge of the mortgage sector. Now 36, Daniel grew up a lower-middle-class kid in Queens. One of his first jobs, as a junior accountant at Arthur Andersen, was to audit Salomon Brothers’ books. “It was shocking,” he says. “No one could explain to me what they were doing.” He left accounting in the middle of the internet boom to become a research analyst, looking at companies that made subprime loans. “I was the only guy I knew covering companies that were all going to go bust,” he says. “I saw how the sausage was made in the economy, and it was really freaky.”

Danny Moses, who became Eisman’s head trader, was another who shared his perspective. Raised in Georgia, Moses, the son of a finance professor, was a bit less fatalistic than Daniel or Eisman, but he nevertheless shared a general sense that bad things can and do happen. When a Wall Street firm helped him get into a trade that seemed perfect in every way, he said to the salesman, “I appreciate this, but I just want to know one thing: How are you going to screw me?”

Heh heh heh, c’mon. We’d never do that, the trader started to say, but Moses was politely insistent: We both know that unadulterated good things like this trade don’t just happen between little hedge funds and big Wall Street firms. I’ll do it, but only after you explain to me how you are going to screw me. And the salesman explained how he was going to screw him. And Moses did the trade.

Both Daniel and Moses enjoyed, immensely, working with Steve Eisman. He put a fine point on the absurdity they saw everywhere around them. “Steve’s fun to take to any Wall Street meeting,” Daniel says. “Because he’ll say ‘Explain that to me’ 30 different times. Or ‘Could you explain that more, in English?’ Because once you do that, there’s a few things you learn. For a start, you figure out if they even know what they’re talking about. And a lot of times, they don’t!”

At the end of 2004, Eisman, Moses, and Daniel shared a sense that unhealthy things were going on in the U.S. housing market: Lots of firms were lending money to people who shouldn’t have been borrowing it. They thought Alan Greenspan’s decision after the internet bust to lower interest rates to 1 percent was a travesty that would lead to some terrible day of reckoning. Neither of these insights was entirely original. Ivy Zelman, at the time the housing-market analyst at Credit Suisse, had seen the bubble forming very early on. There’s a simple measure of sanity in housing prices: the ratio of median home price to income. Historically, it runs around 3 to 1; by late 2004, it had risen nationally to 4 to 1. “All these people were saying it was nearly as high in some other countries,” Zelman says. “But the problem wasn’t just that it was 4 to 1. In Los Angeles, it was 10 to 1, and in Miami, 8.5 to 1. And then you coupled that with the buyers. They weren’t real buyers. They were speculators.” Zelman alienated clients with her pessimism, but she couldn’t pretend everything was good. “It wasn’t that hard in hindsight to see it,” she says. “It was very hard to know when it would stop.” Zelman spoke occasionally with Eisman and always left these conversations feeling better about her views and worse about the world. “You needed the occasional assurance that you weren’t nuts,” she says. She wasn’t nuts. The world was.

By the spring of 2005, FrontPoint was fairly convinced that something was very screwed up not merely in a handful of companies but in the financial underpinnings of the entire U.S. mortgage market. In 2000, there had been $130 billion in subprime mortgage lending, with $55 billion of that repackaged as mortgage bonds. But in 2005, there was $625 billion in subprime mortgage loans, $507 billion of which found its way into mortgage bonds. Eisman couldn’t understand who was making all these loans or why. He had a from-the-ground-up understanding of both the U.S. housing market and Wall Street. But he’d spent his life in the stock market, and it was clear that the stock market was, in this story, largely irrelevant. “What most people don’t realize is that the fixed-income world dwarfs the equity world,” he says. “The equity world is like a fucking zit compared with the bond market.” He shorted companies that originated subprime loans, like New Century and Indy Mac, and companies that built the houses bought with the loans, such as Toll Brothers. Smart as these trades proved to be, they weren’t entirely satisfying. These companies paid high dividends, and their shares were often expensive to borrow; selling them short was a costly proposition.

Enter Greg Lippman, a mortgage-bond trader at Deutsche Bank. He arrived at FrontPoint bearing a 66-page presentation that described a better way for the fund to put its view of both Wall Street and the U.S. housing market into action. The smart trade, Lippman argued, was to sell short not New Century’s stock but its bonds that were backed by the subprime loans it had made. Eisman hadn’t known this was even possible—because until recently, it hadn’t been. But Lippman, along with traders at other Wall Street investment banks, had created a way to short the subprime bond market with precision.

Here’s where financial technology became suddenly, urgently relevant. The typical mortgage bond was still structured in much the same way it had been when I worked at Salomon Brothers. The loans went into a trust that was designed to pay off its investors not all at once but according to their rankings. The investors in the top tranche, rated AAA, received the first payment from the trust and, because their investment was the least risky, received the lowest interest rate on their money. The investors who held the trusts’ BBB tranche got the last payments—and bore the brunt of the first defaults. Because they were taking the most risk, they received the highest return. Eisman wanted to bet that some subprime borrowers would default, causing the trust to suffer losses. The way to express this view was to short the BBB tranche. The trouble was that the BBB tranche was only a tiny slice of the deal.



But the scarcity of truly crappy subprime-mortgage bonds no longer mattered. The big Wall Street firms had just made it possible to short even the tiniest and most obscure subprime-mortgage-backed bond by creating, in effect, a market of side bets. Instead of shorting the actual BBB bond, you could now enter into an agreement for a credit-default swap with Deutsche Bank or Goldman Sachs. It cost money to make this side bet, but nothing like what it cost to short the stocks, and the upside was far greater.

The arrangement bore the same relation to actual finance as fantasy football bears to the N.F.L. Eisman was perplexed in particular about why Wall Street firms would be coming to him and asking him to sell short. “What Lippman did, to his credit, was he came around several times to me and said, ‘Short this market,’ ” Eisman says. “In my entire life, I never saw a sell-side guy come in and say, ‘Short my market.’ ”

And short Eisman did—then he tried to get his mind around what he’d just done so he could do it better. He’d call over to a big firm and ask for a list of mortgage bonds from all over the country. The juiciest shorts—the bonds ultimately backed by the mortgages most likely to default—had several characteristics. They’d be in what Wall Street people were now calling the sand states: Arizona, California, Florida, Nevada. The loans would have been made by one of the more dubious mortgage lenders; Long Beach Financial, wholly owned by Washington Mutual, was a great example. Long Beach Financial was moving money out the door as fast as it could, few questions asked, in loans built to self-destruct. It specialized in asking home­owners with bad credit and no proof of income to put no money down and defer interest payments for as long as possible. In Bakersfield, California, a Mexican strawberry picker with an income of $14,000 and no English was lent every penny he needed to buy a house for $720,000.

More generally, the subprime market tapped a tranche of the American public that did not typically have anything to do with Wall Street. Lenders were making loans to people who, based on their credit ratings, were less creditworthy than 71 percent of the population. Eisman knew some of these people. One day, his housekeeper, a South American woman, told him that she was planning to buy a townhouse in Queens. “The price was absurd, and they were giving her a low-down-payment option-ARM,” says Eisman, who talked her into taking out a conventional fixed-rate mortgage. Next, the baby nurse he’d hired back in 1997 to take care of his newborn twin daughters phoned him. “She was this lovely woman from Jamaica,” he says. “One day she calls me and says she and her sister own five townhouses in Queens. I said, ‘How did that happen?’ ” It happened because after they bought the first one and its value rose, the lenders came and suggested they refinance and take out $250,000, which they used to buy another one. Then the price of that one rose too, and they repeated the experiment. “By the time they were done,” Eisman says, “they owned five of them, the market was falling, and they couldn’t make any of the payments.”

In retrospect, pretty much all of the riskiest subprime-backed bonds were worth betting against; they would all one day be worth zero. But at the time Eisman began to do it, in the fall of 2006, that wasn’t clear. He and his team set out to find the smelliest pile of loans they could so that they could make side bets against them with Goldman Sachs or Deutsche Bank. What they were doing, oddly enough, was the analysis of subprime lending that should have been done before the loans were made: Which poor Americans were likely to jump which way with their finances? How much did home prices need to fall for these loans to blow up? (It turned out they didn’t have to fall; they merely needed to stay flat.) The default rate in Georgia was five times higher than that in Florida even though the two states had the same unemployment rate. Why? Indiana had a 25 percent default rate; California’s was only 5 percent. Why?

Moses actually flew down to Miami and wandered around neighborhoods built with subprime loans to see how bad things were. “He’d call me and say, ‘Oh my God, this is a calamity here,’ ” recalls Eisman. All that was required for the BBB bonds to go to zero was for the default rate on the underlying loans to reach 14 percent. Eisman thought that, in certain sections of the country, it would go far, far higher.

The funny thing, looking back on it, is how long it took for even someone who predicted the disaster to grasp its root causes. They were learning about this on the fly, shorting the bonds and then trying to figure out what they had done. Eisman knew subprime lenders could be scumbags. What he underestimated was the total unabashed complicity of the upper class of American capitalism. For instance, he knew that the big Wall Street investment banks took huge piles of loans that in and of themselves might be rated BBB, threw them into a trust, carved the trust into tranches, and wound up with 60 percent of the new total being rated AAA.

But he couldn’t figure out exactly how the rating agencies justified turning BBB loans into AAA-rated bonds. “I didn’t understand how they were turning all this garbage into gold,” he says. He brought some of the bond people from Goldman Sachs, Lehman Brothers, and UBS over for a visit. “We always asked the same question,” says Eisman. “Where are the rating agencies in all of this? And I’d always get the same reaction. It was a smirk.” He called Standard & Poor’s and asked what would happen to default rates if real estate prices fell. The man at S&P couldn’t say; its model for home prices had no ability to accept a negative number. “They were just assuming home prices would keep going up,” Eisman says.

As an investor, Eisman was allowed on the quarterly conference calls held by Moody’s but not allowed to ask questions. The people at Moody’s were polite about their brush-off, however. The C.E.O. even invited Eisman and his team to his office for a visit in June 2007. By then, Eisman was so certain that the world had been turned upside down that he just assumed this guy must know it too. “But we’re sitting there,” Daniel recalls, “and he says to us, like he actually means it, ‘I truly believe that our rating will prove accurate.’ And Steve shoots up in his chair and asks, ‘What did you just say?’ as if the guy had just uttered the most preposterous statement in the history of finance. He repeated it. And Eisman just laughed at him.”

“With all due respect, sir,” Daniel told the C.E.O. deferentially as they left the meeting, “you’re delusional.”
This wasn’t Fitch or even S&P. This was Moody’s, the aristocrats of the rating business, 20 percent owned by Warren Buffett. And the company’s C.E.O. was being told he was either a fool or a crook by one Vincent Daniel, from Queens.

A full nine months earlier, Daniel and ­Moses had flown to Orlando for an industry conference. It had a grand title—the American Securitization Forum—but it was essentially a trade show for the ­subprime-mortgage business: the people who originated subprime mortgages, the Wall Street firms that packaged and sold subprime mortgages, the fund managers who invested in nothing but subprime-mortgage-backed bonds, the agencies that rated subprime-­mortgage bonds, the lawyers who did whatever the lawyers did. Daniel and Moses thought they were paying a courtesy call on a cottage industry, but the cottage had become a castle. “There were like 6,000 people there,” Daniel says. “There were so many people being fed by this industry. The entire fixed-income department of each brokerage firm is built on this. Everyone there was the long side of the trade. The wrong side of the trade. And then there was us. That’s when the picture really started to become clearer, and we started to get more cynical, if that was possible. We went back home and said to Steve, ‘You gotta see this.’ ”

Eisman, Daniel, and Moses then flew out to Las Vegas for an even bigger subprime conference. By now, Eisman knew everything he needed to know about the quality of the loans being made. He still didn’t fully understand how the apparatus worked, but he knew that Wall Street had built a doomsday machine. He was at once opportunistic and outraged.

Their first stop was a speech given by the C.E.O. of Option One, the mortgage originator owned by H&R Block. When the guy got to the part of his speech about Option One’s subprime-loan portfolio, he claimed to be expecting a modest default rate of 5 percent. Eisman raised his hand. Moses and Daniel sank into their chairs. “It wasn’t a Q&A,” says Moses. “The guy was giving a speech. He sees Steve’s hand and says, ‘Yes?’”

“Would you say that 5 percent is a probability or a possibility?” Eisman asked.

A probability, said the C.E.O., and he continued his speech.

Continued>>>

http://www.portfolio.com/news-markets/national-news/portfolio/2008/11/11/The-End-of-Wall-Streets-Boom?print=true#


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av8rdave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-14-08 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
1. Wow....
What an incredible read. It would be almost entertaining if not for the damage done to all of us.

Thanks for posting!
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catnhatnh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-14-08 04:11 PM
Response to Original message
2. An excellent and disturbing piece...
and just when I was on the verge of giving up because I couldn't understand quite what was going on insiders admit that neither they nor anyone else did either. K&R
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snappyturtle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-14-08 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
3. K&R WoW! Now I'm going to go find some aspirin before I read anymore!
If I understand this in simplest of terms....people set up mortgages that they knew would most likely fail and then bet on the same mortgages that they would (fail). Is that right?
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-14-08 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Yepper!
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snappyturtle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-14-08 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. OMG! These slimebags are pointing fingers and directing MSM talking
heads at their swindled clientele! They drove up the home prices and encouraged us little people to buy with equity, in some cases. Of course they covered their you know whats by betting on failure. Oh boy,,,,,,I say the money better start flowing to main street ASAP. Heads need to roll. They KNEW. Paulsen KNOWS.
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-14-08 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Paulsen knew. He's probably shredding evidence as we speak.
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hatrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-14-08 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Except that in many cases, there were no mortgages, no houses, no homeowners
It was all vaporware, a parallel housing market containing zero houses.

It was just another way to game the system, another way for the owners to make theirs and get out before the roof fell in on the rest of us.
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snappyturtle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-14-08 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #6
16. THAT part of the article shocked me! How did human beings reach
such a level of deviousness? It was an invisible "Old Maid" card....and they just kept passing it on. Here we are, my husband and I, making certain that all our business records are accurate and all receipts are in order,etc. for what? So we can pay taxes to bail out thieves. imho
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Celebration Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-14-08 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. no worries
Edited on Fri Nov-14-08 10:33 PM by itsjustme
It is just "fantasy mortgage" instead of "fantasy baseball." Oh, yeah, the difference is that fantasy baseball didn't put the entire economy into the crappers.
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CoffeeCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-14-08 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
8. I'm still wading through this...
...and I can't wait to read the rest.

My head is spinning.

It's crazy to think that many "financial experts" didn't see (or want to see) the downside of
all this sub-prime garbage. I've mentioned before that, three years ago, my husband and I hunted
for a house. We were aghast that the mortgage lender tried to steer us into a bullshit, interest-only,
ARM--that would have left us screwed when interest rates increased. My husband and I were in shock
after leaving her office because all of the "Get in this house for only $800 a month!" signs suddenly
made sense. America was being set up by the banking and mortgage industry--and the real-estate
agents were happily along for the ride--showing people houses they couldn't afford and using all
of this creative financing to rationalize poor decisions, "Oh, I know this house is 75k above
your ceiling price--but it's so beautiful and with an interest-only, the payment is less than $1,000!"

We saw this coming 3 years ago. How in the hell did tens of thousands of Harvard grads not see it--as late
as LAST YEAR???

Also, I'm astounded reading how many of them knew about the impending doom--and used their knowledge
to short every investment related to sub-prime. Gee, maybe these people could have gone public?

What I'm wondering----when will the dissertation on the credit-card bubble be written? When will
a few geniuses in that sector come forward to write a tell-all---and let us know the behind-the-scenes
juicy details?

That's the next pillar to fall. We're hanging on by a thread now--the next pillar to fall will crash it
entirely.

It's amazing that this was allowed to happen.

Joanne, thanks for posting this. I always learn something from your posts on the economy. I do
appreciate these great sources, because the MSM is no help. Their job is to keep us in the dark
so we shop more.

Yikes....I need an aspirin.
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snappyturtle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-14-08 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. I took two and they're not helping! Wait til you read the rest of it!
You said you and your husband saw this coming three years ago...so did I. My daughter, first time home buyer, naive as they come got her nightmare. I was to be at the closing. Many times the closing was changed(?) She had told them I was going to be present. I had sold real estate and her father and I had bought a number of homes over the years so I had 'some' knowledge. One sorry day, the realtor/financier called her to tell her the closing was set two hours hence. I lived four hours away. However, I felt her realtor would help her understand her mortgage. I was big time wrong. A few months into the mortgage I was visiting her and asked to see her copy. She was recovering a bad root canal and lots of drugs....I was mortified when I read the terms.

This girl, my daughter, has managed to hang on working seventy and sometimes more hours a week. She is trying to get the mortgage re-financed. MANY during this process have told her how awful her mortgage is! So, we wait and hope for the nightmare for her to be over soon. So greedy were these people that they offerred their money to help pad the down payment!
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CoffeeCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-14-08 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. I'm so sorry about your daughter...
...and I hope she is able to secure a better mortgage and rate. The people who railroaded her into
such an awful situation, really shouldn't be allowed to work in finance. It sounds like they deliberately
tried to ensure that she was the only one at the meeting--and you missing.

Do you want to know what one broker told me to do? I told her that I was aggressively paying down my
student loan ($80,000). We're paying off nearly $1,500 monthly. She advised me to combine our mortgage
with my student loan....get this...into an ARM!!!!!

I'm paying 3 percent on my student loan. If I'd listened to her...I'd be paying 7 percent now, and I'd
be vulnerable to additional interest-rate hikes.

Can you believe this nonsense?

This was trickle-down greed, with the banks, the mortgage brokers, the real-estate agents and the Wall Street
financiers making off with gazillions--while average Americans were robbed.

And now they blame US for this!!!! It's infuriating.
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snappyturtle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-14-08 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. I think you've hit the nail on the head....the blaming us part. I wish I had
started a log on the comments uttered about people living beyond their means, buying more home than they can afford, not educating themselves (are fiduciary repsonsibilities a thing of the past?) when if the truth were know, and hopefully it's slowly seeping out, people were encouraged to grab a piece of the pie before the price went up, interest rates went up,to use their equity (many used for paying off bills such as outlandish medical bills, food and rent (in cases where jobs were disappeared), ad infinitum. AND yet little on the thieves in the financial sector. After all, the economy is swell, right? :sarcasm:
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-14-08 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. It's reminding me of Enron. "The smartest guys in the room" kept saying "You don't get it"
And everyone went along because they didn't get it and thought they were dumb. they didn't want to spoil the party. The go along to get along no matter how ridiculous the situation. It's why I love the Yes Men. They expose this mental disease really well. Did u ever see this video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeSp5rwFCSk

They are selling shit hamburgers. It's hilarious.
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madmadmad Donating Member (368 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 02:29 AM
Response to Reply #8
20. i saw it coming 3 years ago as well, when a friend of a friend was writing mortgages
and they explained how they could get me into a $800,000 house, despite the fact that my income was unsteady (to be polite) and my credit was spotty (probably polite again). it was a crazy scheme, involving what now seems like bit of fraud (they made it seem kind of reasonable at the time). i declined because i knew when the payments went up i wouldn't be able to afford them, and also if my income dried up, i couldn't either, and last, though prices seemed to have no upper limit, i was scared the house wouldn't have appreciated enough to sell before the larger payments were due. mostly, my intuition said not to do it because "if they are willing to write *you* a mortgage you clearly do not qualify for in anyway, then there is a HUGE problem somewhere".

of course, i really had no idea how right my intuition was, and how bad things would get for the housing market. i'm also grateful i passed as work started drying up about 6 months ago, and by now, i'd be behind in my payments and most likely in foreclosure- so not only would a be stressed about work, i'd be near collaspe from worry about losing my home. but had i been a bit weaker, and less timid, i could have easily gone the other way and signed my life away.
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #20
27. I bet you ARE glad. Good you used your common sense.
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Celebration Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-14-08 05:49 PM
Response to Original message
10. Read this after someone posted it this morning
And I still recommended this post. This is really, really good. I particularly like the part about Eisman eating lunch with a congenial guy, and wanting to short everything he did after that.

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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-14-08 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Thanks. I didn't see the other post but it needs more publicity anyway.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-14-08 08:18 PM
Response to Original message
15. Deleted by me as inappropriate. I'd just like to say, it is a fantastic read. Thank you, Joanne.
Edited on Fri Nov-14-08 08:22 PM by KCabotDullesMarxIII
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #15
26. You're very welcome.
:)
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-14-08 10:55 PM
Response to Original message
18. Thanks Joanne98, this just confirms what some of us have thought all along. The really
smart, greedy, and amoral guys on Wall Street figure out ways to make billions of bucks by screwing the people at ground level, then when the jig is up, they convince the other smart, greedy, and amoral guys in Congress to pay them even more money to keep the scam going.

I feel so stupid being someone who thinks that you should work for what you earn instead of ripping someone off.


Doesn't it make us all feel better that our President-elect and our Congressional leaders are in such a hurry to give these Wall Street shysters TRILLIONS more of our tax dollars so their businesses won't fail?

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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 12:09 AM
Response to Original message
19. This is the best I've read
in a damn long time...brings the economic mess into layman's terms. I worked in that slime biz...and it is soooooooooo true.

I remember when Derivatives were invented....I was in shock. Then they morphed into something that Dr. Frankenstein could only dream of.

Unprecedented is the word of the year.
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Hugin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 06:29 AM
Response to Original message
21. My first clue was when there was a universal push for so-called "Binding Arbitration" by TPTB.
Insisting that average people sign away their Constitutionally Guaranteed Right to a Fair Trial showed that the
Corporatists had something they didn't want out during the Discovery Phase of a trial (or a series of trials).

There's only one thing these kinds of people hate worse than giving up money and it's a day in court. Because,
you see, they may lose their scam and they aren't bright enough to come up with another one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbitration
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boomerbust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 07:09 AM
Response to Original message
22. I will say it again
Bush and Cheney will have a billion or two waiting for them when they leave office.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 08:03 AM
Response to Original message
23. Good stuff. How come it always gets published AFTER the crash?
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 08:07 AM
Response to Original message
24. and now, we're giving these guys billions in free money
so they can pay bonuses and throw parties for the same people who f*cked us so thoroughly.

It makes my blood boil. :grr:
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eomer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 08:28 AM
Response to Original message
25. "That's when Eisman finally got it." Can anyone explain to me what he finally got?
From the article:

That’s when Eisman finally got it. Here he’d been making these side bets with Goldman Sachs and Deutsche Bank on the fate of the BBB tranche without fully understanding why those firms were so eager to make the bets. Now he saw. There weren’t enough Americans with shitty credit taking out loans to satisfy investors’ appetite for the end product. The firms used Eisman’s bet to synthesize more of them. Here, then, was the difference between fantasy finance and fantasy football: When a fantasy player drafts Peyton Manning, he doesn’t create a second Peyton Manning to inflate the league’s stats. But when Eisman bought a credit-default swap, he enabled Deutsche Bank to create another bond identical in every respect but one to the original. The only difference was that there was no actual homebuyer or borrower. The only assets backing the bonds were the side bets Eisman and others made with firms like Goldman Sachs. Eisman, in effect, was paying to Goldman the interest on a subprime mortgage. In fact, there was no mortgage at all. “They weren’t satisfied getting lots of unqualified borrowers to borrow money to buy a house they couldn’t afford,” Eisman says. “They were creating them out of whole cloth. One hundred times over! That’s why the losses are so much greater than the loans. But that’s when I realized they needed us to keep the machine running. I was like, This is allowed?”


I don't know whether it's true that Eisman "finally got it" but, if he did, Lewis did a lousy job of explaining it.

How did Eisman buying a CDS enable Deustche Bank to create another bond identical to the original bond? Why couldn't they create a bond, if they wanted to, without the existence of the CDS?

And why would this new bond be problematic? If it was identical to the original bond then Deustche Bank received the principal amount up front (equal to the original mortgage principal amount). As long as they are a responsible custodian in how they manage these additional principal funds that they received from the new bond, taking into account that they will be required to pay coupons during the term and pay back the principal at the end, then the new bond stands on its own and there is no need for a CDS to enable the bond creation.

Or is it that the newly created bond was not, in fact, identical to the original bond? Perhaps what they did was to securitize the CDS? If so, then they would receive a sum up front equal to the present value of the future stream of annual CDS "premiums". Since the only future obligation of Deustche Bank would be those annual CDS "premiums", which are, to their way of thinking, free money being received by them from Eisman, then they are free to spend the proceeds of the securitization of the CDS on, say, executive compensation. If they keep creating these arrangements recursively, there is no limit to the amount of "free" money they can create and consume. Unless, of course, there is a real estate downturn and the underlying mortgages start defaulting. Then the whole thing falls apart. But the Deustche Bank executives still win even in that disastrous case, because they already shoveled all the free money out of the corporation into their personal assets (probably offshore).

If anyone knows how this stuff actually works (because I'm totally guessing and have no connection to this industry at all), I'd greatly appreciate some clarification.





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NMDemDist2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #25
29. google "Debt as Money" and watch the video n/t
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Coes Donating Member (113 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-08 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #29
50. definitly
that video was an eye-opener. Money DEBT is created out of thin air.

If one combines the info of that video with this article, then I just have to start wondering wether there is enough value < not paper money, not virtual Stock Exchange money, nor all those profits created from short selling, but things that actually have real value > on the planet to repay all that debt.
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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. I believe what he "got"
was that many of the troubled mortgages were illusions. If you looked at the CDSs and other things, you would think there were many more troubled mortgages than there were.

This is what leads all the libertarian blowhards to blame the credit crisis on the people who took out mortgages.

But what was happening was the same as if I took out a fire insurance policy on my house. And then, you took out a fire insurance policy on my house. And, then someone else took out a fire insurance policy on my house. And so on, until there were 100 policies on my house. Looking at it from a distance -- without knowing the address of the house -- you'd think there were 100 houses. But there's only one. If it burns down, 100 people get paid the price of the house. They created the illusion that there were more houses than there were.

Then, if my house burned and someone went belly-up trying to pay off all the policies, everyone would point at me and say that I caused the problem by leaving my newspaper on the stove.
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eomer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #30
37. Thanks, but I get all that.
I understand they were writing an unlimited number of CDSs on any given mortgage, without any regard for the fact that the CDS buyer had no financial stake in the mortgage and also without regard for whether the entity selling the CDS had any reserves against the possibility of having to payout on it.

But my question was more specific. What bond is Lewis talking about that could be created by Deustche Bank only after Eisman purchased a CDS from them? The standard explanation talks about one securitized mortgage (one bond, in other words) and then an endless number of CDSs betting on whether that bond will default. What is this extra bond that Lewis is talking about?
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Celebration Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #37
44. apparently
they securitized "bets" that the mortagages would be good and packaged these things and sold them. That's what I got out of it, anyway. They couldn't securitize these "bets" until they found someone who was willing to take the opposite side of the bet, and was willing to pay the "interest" to do it.

Clever, huh?
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 10:22 AM
Response to Original message
28. One way in which this article helped me enormously was in my efforts to understand
Edited on Sat Nov-15-08 11:14 AM by KCabotDullesMarxIII
these Republicans - even more, the small archetypal neoconservative cabal; to conceive how those people were not some imaginary fictitious group of people, the product of some writer's diseased imagination, but real, flesh and blood people. The same with our Tories in the UK.

The article on ponerology linked in a post of someone on DU confirmed my observations, and hence convictions, about psychopaths tending to gravitate to some of the highest positions in our societies, and I found the distinction drawn between "essential psychopaths" and "adaptive psychopaths" very instructive. But this account by actual players, seemingly the only sane ones in that mad-house called Wall Street really brings it to life, lends credibility to things that one would normally consider wildly improbable - even given the general, immemorial folly of mankind's leaders - which an intervew with a scholar, however fascinating could never inspire.

In other words there seems to be a "one to one" correspondence between Wall Street and the political architects of that Gadarene, free-market stampede over a cliff. With the best will in the world, you couldn't call neoliberalism a philosophy, economic or otherwise.

One little cavil: Michael Lewis say that, I believe it was Meredith, couldn't really know the crash was bound to happen, because even the CEOs didn't. He pretty much makes it clear that CEOs were either as dumb or as crooked as their most incompetent employees. But, while I'm all for reasoning from first principles, really, even assuming that all the CEOs did anticipate it, the validity of Meredith's conviction stood on its own logical merits, and it was faultless, as events were to prove.

The fact that we are wary of going against a massive, massive herd is understandable enough, but when someone does overcome their fears of imponderables they feel they may have perhaps missed, their logic can no more be faulted than their confidence in it. The fact that it was vindicated, after all, was not one of a few different possible outcomes. It was inevitable, and can surely now be seen as such.

Most of the major whistle-blowers seem to have been women, and this makes sense. As our politicians in the UK have long maintained, women are not "clubbable". Just as when men take the rise out of each other its almost always an expression of affection, women don't get it, and think you are being "catty".

So a part of the clubbability of males, it seems to me, is a propensity for seeing humour in grotesque situations and a sense that, well it's been going on for a long time among this extraordinary number of people, "I'm not going to be able to change it, for sure." Women on the other hand like propriety, rationality, rules, which will set bounds. While lads at school tend to pay around in class, the girls can be left on their own by the teacher in the sure knowledge that they will get on with their allotted tasks. Life is a serious business for women, which may explain why they are said to favour men who make them laugh.

Maybe I shouldn't, but when I see characters driving along the hard shoulder of motorways to by-pass a long tailback, I LOL. My wife, on the other hand, is resentful of it. They're not playing by the rules. I try not to hold up traffic when I'm crossing the road, so I look for a place away from a pedestrian crossing. But my wife is appalled that I don't avail myself of the protective services of the "littel green man". I dare say I should because of a respiratory/ cardiac problem, but... well. I don't know....

It might not be a bad idea for governments to judiciously choose women as the regulators on that account. Unclubbable and capable of being bloody-minded, when their worldview is marred by unconscionable misbehaviour.

I've just been reading the passage in St Luke's Gospel about the old girl who pestered the judge, who feared neither God not man, until he feared she'd pester him to death, so took up her case. Just one of an endless stream of quirky, very telling little human insights in the Gospels that chime with our everyday experiences in a different society 2000 years later. Would a man have pestered him? Not a chance. He'd soon have given up, cursing the legal profession for its cynical venality. If not in so many words.


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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. I'd like to know how we got psychopaths at the top of our society..
Is it a "birds of a feather" thingy? I would appreciate a link to that if you have it.
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Oak2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 12:54 PM
Original message
A real quick and dirty explanation:
If you don't feel constrained by any rules, moral or otherwise, you have a competitive advantage over those who do feel so constrained, in a competitive hierarchy. You'll do anything to "win", while normal people with a conscience will draw the line at breaking the rules and at causing harm to innocent people.

But it's worth waiting for the link and reading more. Or just do a search: more than one expert on sociopathy/psychopathy has observed the same phenomenon, to some degree or another. The ponerology folks go further in some ways than I would agree with, but the core of their observations are hard to argue with.
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
33. Oakey dokey!

I just had to say that!

:hi:
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #33
40. Thank you Joanne. I've long noticed you're a tear-away, vicar or not,
and enjoy your posts. I'm not fishing for compliments, either!
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-08 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #40
46. lol
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
39. Exactly. It's normal for them not to baulk at "cutting corners", where there is little risk of
Edited on Sat Nov-15-08 03:53 PM by KCabotDullesMarxIII
their being found out. And what makes their behaviour less suspicious to others is that it is the normal insinct and indeed a product of our religious training/culture, to prefer to not to believe ill of people, a characteristic exploited to the nth degree by pyschopaths.

http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/political_ponerology_lobaczewski.htm

Bear in mind, there is a continuation, a second page.
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Hugin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. Please also see my post #34.
I have some additional discussion there.

I know... I know... I should'a put it HERE! :ack:
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #31
41. Here you are, Joanne. It's fascinating, to get this kind of detail. There are occasional
lacunas, such as dissing my namesake, but otherwise....

http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/political_ponerology_lobaczewski.htm
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-08 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #41
48. Bookmarked for later. Thanx
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #31
43. I did have a link to another fascinating article on psychopathology,
Edited on Sat Nov-15-08 04:21 PM by KCabotDullesMarxIII
but I've not been able to find it yet. I'm going to keep trying.

I've found it. It's below this fascinating excerpt:

"Are these traits intrinsic to the individual and can they be corrected?

Henry: Correction depends on many variables.. Before we can think about correcting these abnormalities, we need to find ways of protecting ourselves from their influence. That means first admitting that such people exist and are found in positions of power, and second, learning to recognize the signs of their manipulations and the pathological traits of our own thinking in order to free ourselves from their influence.

Laura: As Henry says, there are many variables. When speaking of psychopaths, specifically, the general consensus today is that they are not only incurable, they are un-treatable.

The first problem is that if you want to treat a problem, you have to have a patient. The word patient comes from Latin, and means "to suffer." A patient, by definition, is someone who is suffering and seeks treatment.

Psychopaths do not experience distress and do not think that anything is wrong with them, they do not suffer stress or neuroses, and do not seek out treatment voluntarily. They do not consider their attitudes and behavior to be at all wrong, and do not benefit from the many treatment programs that have been set up to help them "develop empathy" and interpersonal skills. The psychopath recognizes no flaw in his psyche, no need for change. They will, however, participate in treatment programs in prisons in order to gain their release.

When the recidivism rate of psychopaths and other offenders who had been in treatment was examined, it was found that the rate of general recidivism was equally high in the treated and untreated group, 87% and 90% respectively, however the rate of violent recidivism was significantly higher in the treated group than the untreated group; 77% and 55% respectively. In contrast, the treated non-psychopaths had significantly lower rates of general and violent recidivism; 44% and 22% respectively, than did untreated psychopaths, 58% and 39%. So it seems that treatment programs work for non-psychopaths, but actually make true psychopaths worse.

A Canadian journalist reporting on this study wrote: "After their release, it was found that those who had scored highest in terms of 'good treatment behaviour' and who had the highest "empathy" scores were the ones who were more likely to reoffend after release."

That's the psychopath for you: they can fake anything to get what they want."

http://uspolitics.tribe.net/thread/abb2282c-badb-464e-a08f-5bc8e63b1fd9
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Hugin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. Thanks for the insightful reply.
Very good. :)

I only have one point to add regarding psychopaths (or as I prefer to call them sociopaths)...

Years ago I read a couple of studies which were done with willing certified sociopaths as subjects
chosen from a population of convicts charged with various offenses related to their pathology.

The focus of the studies was in trying to find methods of controlling their behavior. They tried just
about every ethical means of behavior modification they could think of, but, the sociopaths (due to their
charming conniving audience pleasing traits) were resistant to all save one.

The researchers found they could control the behavior of the sociopaths by enforcing strict regulations
on the reward of MONEY. It seems to be a sociopath is a high financial maintenance pursuit. Due,
most likely to their need to put on a show and be admired. They're always clothes horses and like flash.
While at the same time caring absolutely nothing about anything affecting anyone else. The sociopath revels
in misery and power and money buys power. (Remind you of anyone in this latest election? It should. ;) )

So, now we hear from the head sociopaths that they don't want regulation. Figures, it's their Achilles
heel and I submit they are instinctively aware of it.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. ... clothes horses liking flash... not to tar all with the same brush, but sounds
not unreminiscent of narcissism.

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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #34
42. That money and power thing also goes with their characteristic of
manipulativeness - which, unsurprisingly, is apparently a salient feature of pedophiles.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #34
45. I know you're not going to lose any sleep over it, Prag, but it occurred to me
Edited on Sat Nov-15-08 05:28 PM by KCabotDullesMarxIII
that when I congratulated Joanne on her posts, you might have inferred that I hadn't thought much of yours - or the King of Egypt's or Demeter's et al's(!); which, of course, could scarcely be further from the truth.

Incidentally, I think Hillary's, at times scurrilous, but evidently anomalous attacks on Obama were probably the result of her being in a predominanlty masculine milieu and failing to understand that bizarre as it must seem to women, men do have some kinds of rough and ready rules in most situations - you can't speak for Republicans, at least these ones - and so she was in a sense "all at sea" in terms of what would nd what wouldn't be acceptably negative campaigning.

So, it was always going to be all or nothing with her. With women, words are serious weapons. Obama broke all the rules, but remember up to that time, it was the received wisdom that whatever the hoo-ha negative attacks raised at the time, negative campaigning worked. Tom cats roam far and wide, while female cats have a much smaller patch close to home, so presumably they'd be "out of their comfort zone" further afield. Of course, a senator and potential Cabinet minister in the US administration inhabits many more dimensions than a moggy, so my analogy of Hillary with a female cat is extremely limited in its intended scope, and would in no wise (as lawyers like to say) adversely affect her mooted appointment to the position of Secretary of State.

This, of course, is not to demean Hillary's capacity as a Cabinet minister. Far from it. What I was talking about was her being rather out of her element amid the male bullshi*tting on the campaign trail, which is a whole nother ball-game. Male bullsh*tting must be an extraordinarily murky and puzzling arena for the more decent and discriminating female of the species. Either you are going to be honest and decent (i.e. "apolitical", if you're not Obama) or go for the jugular and not let go. I'm not going to say any more...
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DU GrovelBot  Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 12:54 PM
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liberalla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 01:19 PM
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36. K & R
posting reminder to read later

:kick:
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Hotler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-08 12:21 PM
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47. Kicking!
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-08 08:35 PM
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49. A HUGE KICK! "MUST READ" for ALL SERIOUS DU'ers!
This is just incredible read....I won't rest posting and kicking this so that all DU'er see this!
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