The REAL Detroit problem

[Gman2]

We cannot just decide to make a hundred mpg car. The transitional form of vehicle must sustain a hit from the rolling castles that hockey moms have insisted on inflicting on the rest of us expendable types. We need leadership, to insist on junking the whole lot of suvs.Then, we have an easy job. Take a sportbike or large cruiser bike motor. Add a light spaceframe with sophisticated crumplezones and slick profile. You have a sporty car that gets 90mpg, will do the quarter mile in 11.5 seconds. The lightweight of it will require less brakes. Less materials. Less investment.

Our enemy is suv's. And all other tanks. Our leadership, in providing the fertile ground, for our improved vehicles. This would be emulated in stages all over the earth. Maybe a onetime gov. imbursement to people, to afford the first step in the process. A slick, sporty, quick, safe, cheap, efficient, transition. With these advances in structure, going all elec, when the batteries are ready, or fuel cell etc, will be a walk in the park, to retrofit these frames.

I am a moldmaker, process eng., manufacturing eng., designer. I have built several racing motorcycles. Individuals like myself have been insulted, marginalized and ignored for thirty years. I can only hope that you youngun's download us before we pass.



P.S. We will need a gov home depot type non profit rental, for trucks, and family vacation vehicle.

[Raven]

1. I need a vehicle that will get through a foot of snow and mud season.

What would you suggest for that? :-)

[wordpix]

3. I suggest we rebuild bus and rail infrastructure and you take the train

I know it won't work everywhere but it works in Europe and used to work here.

[ixion]

6. yeah, that's great for ubran centers, and even small to medium sized towns, however

it doesn't do much for the folks who live in isolated rural areas. I grew up (part time) on a farm in Nebraska. During the winters there, we most definitely required a 4-wheel drive vehicle to get around, not to mention a couple tractors for keeping the road clear.

I'm all for rebuilding rail infrastructure, but that's not a universal solution.

[meow2u3]

30. What about 4WD fuel-efficient vehicles?

Ones that can get about 50 mpg? It can be done; question is, does Detroit have the will?

[Gman2]

5. Just another permutation. Front and rear wheel drive should do it,

With it as light as 800 lbs, it would climb like a mountain goat.

[ixion]

7. from my experience, FWD will only get you so far

and is not a substitute for a good 4-wheel drive vehicle.

Case in point: I have a some remote properties scattered around, where there are only access trails available. I have a FWD Camry, and there is no way in hell I would take that car up one of the roads. I had to get a Jeep 4x4 to get up there.

So, while a nice FWD car will work more often in the urban areas, in the country it's a gonner.

[Gman2]

9. I'm talking two wheel drive, front and rear.

You could even go solid axle, with that light. Limit steering lock. That would be unbeatable.

[ixion]

12. maybe... with a lift kit on the suspension

but factory clearance would leave you high-centered in no time flat.

[Gman2]

39. Why perm. lift? hydraulic lift. When you need it.

Then, slink back down, and enjoy the added safety.

[Tansy_Gold]

13. from my experience. . . . . .

If you wanta live in a "remote" area, be prepared for it. If you know there are times of the year when you're not gonna be able to head 40 miles into town on a daily basis, you stock up ahead of time. A responsible person wouldn't be driving 80 miles r/t (or whatever the situation is) on a daily basis just for "convenience" anyway.

If you have a bunch of scattered "remote" properties, you shouldn't be complaining. Many don't have any "properties" at all. And since you have the means to make that choice, don't expect the rest of us to foot the bill for you. Part of the bill would include such items as "Detroit has to keep making the specialty vehicle I *want* for my lifestyle and Detroit has to keep the price affordable so I'm not inconvenienced and if Detroit has to up the prices on all the other vehicles that you other people want so that I can have my specialty vehicle at an affordable price well I don't care."

I chose to live 35 miles from downtown Phoenix. I chose to live 3 miles from the nearest grocery store and 4 miles from the nearest gas station. I'm not asking anyone to make special considerations just for me.



but then I'm


Tansy Gold

[ixion]

15. no, you're not, however

you seem to be saying that you have it right and everyone else who lives remotely has it wrong.

I don't expect anyone to make special considerations for me, but the reality is that larger vehicles whether driven by beast or petrol or electricity, are necessary in certain instances.

[Tansy_Gold]

16. No, actually I don't have it right.

For many reasons, I should not have chosen to live where I do. But I made that choice three years ago and now I have to live with it.

If you want to live where you do, that's fine. Maybe you ought to pick up a horse or a mule to make it through those times when a motorized vehicle can't. I'm just saying that it's unfair to expect Detroit to maintain an investment in the equipment and capital required to turn out a limited number of specialty vehicles because in the long run ALL of us pay for it. And if it comes to specialized manufacturers who produce those limited edition vehicles and they come with a hefty price tag, are you suggesting that the taxpayers subsidize it so you don't have to pay the price?

All I'm doing here is putting out for discussion what happens when one small group (or even an individual) begins to demand that its "needs" trump everyone else's, when in fact those "needs" may be nothing more than extravagant "wants" that are easily managed in other ways.



Tansy Gold

[ixion]

17. I agree with you about Detroit

I think they shouldn't have to. By the same token, they shouldn't try to strangle smaller operations that do want to provide such vehicles, which they have done for decades.

Then again, a horse may be the best option. :)

After all these years, the phrase "Get a horse!" is finally coming back us. :rofl:

[Joe Chi Minh]

19. Then again, a lot of innocent horse are going to get cursed because of their

wretched owners. "(whatever).... and the horse he rode in on!"

[Tansy_Gold]

28. And I agree regarding the quashing of competition

There should be specialty manufacturers to provide for special needs, whether that's cars equipped for amputees or or other drivers with physical challenges or whatever. Because if it really is all about the "free" market, then it damned well ought to be free.


Tansy Gold

[wordpix]

2. it's true Detroit needs to be retooled for 100 mpg but we also need trains & new rail lines

plus bike trails. I think these are more efficient than keeping up the auto system, roads, etc. Can we afford to build and rebuild the infrastructure for both? I don't know but I do know that thanks to the 8 yr. Bushit, we've got a $10 trillion deficit. :shrug:

[Gman2]

8. All part of the same pie.

trains will do the lions share of truck work. Trucks will roll at night. Trains will have flat top cars, that we drive our vehicles onto, to go long distances. A forklift type robot, that puts you on, takes you off, at your stop. We cannot do without personal vehicles. We can do with less of them. Cheaper ones. More efficient ones.

I think we should build the train to go from alaska, where Palin can keep an eye on it, to Chile. Make the entirety of our sector, a trade block. Compartmentalize ourselves. Get Chavez to work up a latin american middleclass. We will have all the customers we need. Ignore europe/asia somewhat, and view them mainly as competition, in the economic olympic sense.

[Gman2]

4. With that light a weight, say 800 lbs, you can do great things

Have a constant torque tranny. Use an engine, that is optimized for a certain rpm. Tiny turbine, perhaps. Use crude refined petroleum byproduct. We could likely see 130 mpg. Use a ratchet system, that recovers braking. WE could even eliminate the battery. By using a pedal to charge the starter. Designing for fat, lazy americans got us where we are.

[liberal N proud]

10. You need to consider safety from the semi trucks on the road

They will never be completely eliminated even if more was shipped via rail.

[Gman2]

11. Trucks roll at night.

With rail taking up a lot of slack, and trucks generally rolling at night, we would have huge open freeways. We could limit trucks to certain lanes. Zoning reforms will further help the commuting situation. Telecommuting will continue to expand. Maybe splitting schedules some. Use a systems approach. The real problem with all of this is the Luddite repugfucks. We will face socialist/commie slams with EVERY advance we make. So, one of the most important reforms is telling the GOP to go fuck themselves.

[kristopher]

34. Large trucks are an essential part of our economy.

Cement trucks, dump trucks, mail trucks, delivery trucks, and yes, 18 wheelers on local and long haul. To dismiss their presence as you are suggesting is fantasy, not reality. If you have belief that your vision where deploying efficient vehicles requires us to get all of these off the road or to build a separate highway infrastructure for them, then your vision will not come to pass.

An alternative that involves sharing the road is to train our drivers - all drivers - much much better. EVERYONE should be required to get a professional driving license such as a taxi driver or heavy truck driver gets. Putting people on the road with 6 hours of training behind the wheel has given us a mortality level that is horrendous. Seat belts and air bags are good, but not getting into an accident because you are a much better trained vehicle operator is even better.

You also seem intent on remaining with the inefficiency of internal combustion engines. Throw that idea out and consider some of the new battery technologies instead. I suggest looking at the EBox and the Volt; both are platforms that conform to present safety standards while delivering the performance and mileage that people are asking for. The "series hybrid" is a great interim step.

[Gman2]

36. We cannot seriously go green till we get the weight down.

If we already have the rolling chassis, it will be cheap to retrofit. Trucks will roll at night if possible, and use specific lanes. Driver training is a good one. Train proper influx on freeway etc. Just the fact that the freeways will be less crowded will help.

[kristopher]

41. Not to put too fine a point on it, but

You.Are.Wrong.

The power density of current top of the line lithium batteries is adequate now and getting better very very quickly.

That's why all the hullabaloo about plug in hybrids. Be aware there are two type of hybrids, parallel (eg Prius) and series (eg Volt, EBox).

These PRODUCTS disprove your assertion. Please join the reality based community, it is a great place to live.

I'm not saying that lighter isn't better, but segregating personal autos and truck simply isn't an option. All you are doing (in effect, if not intent) is to perpetuate the status quo.

Also, investigate the role that plug in (V2G) EVs or Hybrids play in the transition to a renewable infrastructure. They are the linchpin of getting off of fossil fuels both for transport and the electric grid.

[Gman2]

42. I fly high performance electric sailplanes. I know my crap.

They are still temperamental systems. Not user friendly. They explode real good. We use kevlar bags for li-poly charging. Maybe a kevlar carcover would sell. I think a no muss no fuss system of electric propulsion is a few years away. Sure they got stuff now that would work. Go ahead, be an early adopter. It will even prolly get you laid. Not much resale though, when second gen arives.

[kristopher]

43. Oh, the Sarah Palin "I can see Russia" defense...

The overheating and "exploding" lithium batteries are not being used. The characteristics of the batteries depend on the material used for the anode and battery management software. "Li-poly" is not the technology being used. There are several different combinations being used, and they all have different characteristics.

You really should take a hint that you don't know as much as you think you do and, instead of blustering and bloviating, dig up a few current research papers and learn something.

[Gman2]

44. I dont know specific systems. I know the tech. My interests are hobby at this point

And the hobby usage is as high performance as it gets. I see the cutting edge. Not the model T. I will at some point study the systems. As for now, any eng would tell you, weight is a significant impediment to in city mileage. Anyone can get a car up to speed and get mileage. Amp draw goes up drastically, when you approach stall. This is weight related.

[kristopher]

48. Apparently you've never heard of regenerative braking.

Among many other things. If you are using lithium polymer batteries you are not using "cutting edge". Cutting edge is lithium graphite (nano titanate)(1) or LiSi nanowire(2); to mention just a couple.

(1) http://www.lightningcarcompany.co.uk/nanosafe.php

(2) http://www.nature.com/nnano/journal/v3/n1/full/nnano.2007.411.html

[baldguy]

14. The market for SUVs is manufactured just as much as the vehicle itself is.

[bertman]

18. I don't know which area you live in, Gman2, but where I live trucks roll DAY AND NIGHT.

Stop by a truck stop around 10pm and you'll see that the parking lots are FILLED with idling 18-wheelers. Same for rest areas on the interstates. Truckers are just like the rest of us. They get sleepy and less focused while driving at night, especially when driving a big rig. Of course, that's why some of them rely on the trucker's friend, speed (the drug, not the pace), to get to their destination without falling asleep.

This anti-SUV stuff is just bullshit. I'm in the construction business. Almost all of my employees who are carpenters drive full-size pickups, vans, or SUV's. They are not a luxury item for them. When you are carrying tools, ladders, and materials, you cannot fit them into a sport model the size of a Toyota Corolla.

This is the typical elitist--I know best for everybody else--bullshit that we Dems get accused of all time, and on this issue I say rightly so.

If you don't want to drive an SUV, don't drive one. If you want to ride your bike or take the bus, well go for it. If you want to ride mass transit and it works for your line of employment, then more power to you. But don't start telling me what I have to drive.

I'm all for mass transit--buses, light rail, heavy rail, special services for the elderly and handicapped--and I support using my tax money for those types of public works. I'm all for raising the fuel efficiency of ALL VEHICLES. I've supported candidates who have advocated that and I've supported groups who advocate that. I'm also in favor of using highway safety laws to force people to drive safely and courteously. If we need more traffic cops and highway patrol on the road to ensure that, well that's okay too. But I am not for telling people who drive safely what vehicle they can drive.

I guess the next thing you will want us to do is have all telephone poles, bridge abutments, overpass pylons, trees, roadside buildings, and fire hydrants removed due to their intrinsic danger to people driving small cars who might one day run into them.

[Gman2]

22. Fine, then we'll just forget any impositions on anyone.

Just hope for a break, I guess. Construction guys say no changes. No systemic changes allowed. Grow up! There are needs that wont wait. If taking suv's off the road generally is a prerequisite for wholesale change, then so be it. Construction guys get a trailer, OH WELL!

[bertman]

23. Your systemic change makes no sense. Let's be thoughtful about how we change our ways.

If we can manufacture SUV's and work trucks that are fuel-efficient, and/or hybrids, and lighter vehicles that are safe, that is a step in the right direction.

Your visceral emotional reaction to SUV's is tainting your judgment. Probably a result of too much time on those death-machines--racing motorcycles.

[Gman2]

25. It's about weight man. I am an engineer.

It is clear and plain to see, we cannot continue to use so many matls, energy, fuel. If we could provide a sporty, efficient, $12,000 car, with simple mainteneance, long shelf life and 120 mpg, then that is the future. Constuction dudes are an afterthought. We need to make the bulk of our population green, then we can think about the last morsel.

[bertman]

29. Being someone who is trying hard to become a "green" remodeler I am willing to try to

do my part to help the planet. Honestly, I am alarmed by the thinking that says we need to buy green this and green that to make our homes greener, when often times the best solutions are simple fixes AND conservation, which is really about being aware of energy use.

Yeah, I drive an SUV, but I can tell you that I have cut WAAAYYY back on my driving over the last year. A large part of it was gas prices, but the other part was the realization that I could make a big difference in MY CONTRIBUTION to global warming if I tried.

So, I do appreciate your efforts to educate us about weight, fuel, etc, Gman2. But I tend to get my hackles up when someone picks on those of us who drive larger vehicles, and often because we can't afford a little, fuel-efficient one AND a big work vehicle. If I could I would drive a smaller vehicle, but right now it's not in the cards.

This is something I think our new President could home in on that would be instrumental in getting people motivated to conserve: start a public service announcement campaign that gets on network TV, radio and even on websites and gives very specific ways for all of us to save energy. We Americans are an intrepid bunch and most of us want to do the right thing, but can't always figure out what that is. Education about conservation is a key to cutting our energy use.

I'm just curious if you have ever read the book "Cradle to Cradle" by Mike Braungart and Bill McDonough. It's a fascinating read about how we need to rethink our entire manufacturing process--with some excellent examples that they have engineered.

[Gman2]

45. Also, Without heavy cars and far fewer trucks, our roads will last

Far longer. That is a drastic reduction in cost. Our insurance rates will go down, as we do far less damage to property, and passengers. Less rubber needed. Less Less of your money tied up in your car. Less garage spoace needed. Less parking needed. More lanes in the same freeway space.

[baldguy]

24. I have no quarrel with people who need a larger vehicle for their business.

But a house painter is never going to use a Cadillac Escalade to haul his gear around in. SUVs are not work vehicles - they never were meant to be. The problem is that SUVs are designed and marketed to be daily commuters for people who would be served just as well by a 2-door subcompact that gets 4 times the gas mileage.

Without advertising, a compliant corporate-enslaved Congress, cheap gas & many many stupid people then SUVs wouldn't exist.

[ConanTheDestroyer]

20. The Idea is to move away from gasoline as fuel source

I have a Toyota 4Runner. The idea of downsizing to a four wheel motorcycle does not sound appealing. In my opinion, creating vehicles with greater MPG is good, but surely we can create the same size vehicles and maintain or increase performance and change the fuel source. We need to change this thinking. If we are going to retool, then let's make it a sea change, not just make what we already have a little better. SUV's maybe be your enemy, but my SUV is my friend and I find it extremely useful as do many other families. The cow is out of the barn, people own SUV's and that expectation has already been set. To force everybody to downsize to what you deem is a reasonable vehicle is never going to happen. I will concede that the mega SUV such as a Navigator, Escalade and Excursion are excessive.

[Gman2]

26. It is not JUST the gas you will use. It is the energy used to mfg.

To mine and process the metals and plastics. To mfg the parts and assemble. All take too friggin much energy. And pollute.

[kristopher]

33. Would an SUV still be such a friend with gas at $8-10 /gal?

By all indicators that is where we are headed. It will remain your choice, but you are going to have to bid against China, India etc for the fuel. Petroleum is a finite resource and while it production is static (with little new investment in spite of record high prices) the worldwide demand is growing. So something is going to change.

You might possibly use biogas or natural gas. But those domestically produced fuels have a lot of domestic competition that will keep their price comparable to imported petroleum. Natural gas will be the last fossil fuel we eliminate from our electric generating mix.

What is it that makes your Forerunner your 'friend'?

[ConanTheDestroyer]

47. RE:

I have two young boys. My two young boys have stuff. My wife and I are recreational tri-athletes. We have bikes to haul. We have some land out in the West Texas. Having 4-wheel drive comes in handy when it rains as the trail up to the cabin gets muddy. I have two big dogs. We like to take them out to the cabin. So let me be clear, things obviously must change. But rather than force people into a Prius or a smart car that still runs on gas, the auto industry needs to solve the problem of reliance on fossil fuels. We need to think bigger than everybody buy a motorcycle or hybrid car that still runs on gas, albeit more efficiently. We need innovation not just improvements. Additionally, I have a 4runner and will have a 4runner for the foreseeable future. Unless there is a hugely compelling reason, I do not wish to get myself tied up in a car note. It doesn't make sense to pay $500 a month for 60 months so I can save X on gas. I think most people are in the same boat.

[kristopher]

49. You didn't answer the first question

"Would an SUV still be such a friend with gas at $8-10 /gal?"

I drive an F150 and have just as many justifications as you; however, the largest part of my family's driving doesn't require a pickup or an SUV. So we now have a pickup that we drive less and less as gas prices rise, and a smaller more fuel efficient vehicle we use whenever possible.

It will be your choice - a smaller, cheaper to operate, electric drive vehicle or a larger, much more expensive to operate truck. The statistics say that most people who drive SUVs justify ego purchases with sham claims of utilitarian uses. The test will come when the price of gasoline goes back up. You can expect $200 a barrel oil within 10 years according to most experts.

Thanks for the response.

[kristopher]

21. We already have a 100+ mpg car

First a basic but little known fact: the internal combustion engine in your average automobile only delivers about 12% of the energy in the gasoline to the wheels for propulsion, the rest is lost as heat. Electric vehicles with latest generation lithium ion technology deliver more than 90% of the "fuel" to the wheels. This gain in efficiency is what we need to capture and is the key to why we can transition now.

As I said in the header, we already have a 100+ mpg car; it's the Volt and it is scheduled to go on sale next year if GM doesn't fail.

The Volt is a series hybrid; meaning it is an all electric drive vehicle that runs off the batteries you charge at home for the first X number of miles (for the roll out model that is expected to be 40 miles) and then the electric drive is powered by a small (1.4L for the Volt) gasoline engine. Since MOST people drive about 30 miles per day, they will seldom use the gasoline engine and, when calculated on a yearly basis, their mileage will probably range between 100-150 mpg.

I believe the drive configuration is 4WD full time because each wheel will have its own motor.

Another company retrofits Toyota Scions with the same series hybrid configuration available. Their batteries deliver between 120-150 miles per charge.

This is technology that is available now.

Will it fit everyone? Of course not. But it will begin the transition to electric plug in vehicles and should be suitable of more than 50% of the drivers in our light vehicle fleet.

Pickens has switched his suggestion regarding natural gas and is now encouraging it be used for hauling. It is suitable for HD pickups and cargo hauling vehicles up to and including 18 wheelers.

In the product pipeline (developed and tested but working on manufacturing techniques) are lithium batteries that can deliver 800-1000 miles per charge for a vehicle as heavy as the Scion.

The entire transition will take time. Obama has linked support for the auto industry to a concrete plan to transition to electric drive NOW. All manufacturers were already planning to heavily market the vehicles with rollouts commencing in 2009 and stepping up strongly with lots of selection in 2010-2011.

One of the big challenges is updating our electric grid (just the wiring, we have enough generating capacity) so that all homes and parking areas are fitted with the properly wired electric outlets. Your car and the electric company will be able to "talk" to each other so you can just plug in and forget it until your electric bill comes due. At current prices, the electricity price per mile equates to about $1/gal gasoline.

If you are thinking of a new career I'd point out that we are going to need a lot of electricians.

Just thought you'd like to know.

[Waiting For Everyman]

27. K&R You're right.

Higher sales tax on SUVs and higher registration fees ought to do it - while giving a comparable break/discount on light vehicles.

The next generation of cars ought to come with a buydown so people can afford them, and a "bounty" for trading in an old one - maybe an income tax write-off? Then junk the dinosaurs.

[Myrina]

31. Pundits need to be called on their BS that 'labor expenses' are the problem ..

... when the real problem is that corporate America is entirely too top-heavy and that eliminating as little as 3 CEO's will allow companies to save thousands of 'average guy' jobs.

Saving those thousands of jobs will continue to circulate money within the economy: laid off CEO's have 'assets' they can liquidate, but laid-off workers do not spend money unless they have to.

I'm so sick of the GOP trying to use this crisis to smash what's left of the Unions and obliterate any kind of workers rights.
When are the fat-cats going to tighten their belts?
When are we going to DEMAND that they do??

:shrug:

[Seldona]

32. Personally I think trucking is where to start.

Innovation in personal transportation is a must, but imagine if we could switch the entire trucking fleet to say 70/30 bio-diesel? Say 80/20 to 100% in warmer areas? The mix can change based on a variety of factors, but each gallon of bio-diesel used is one that we make here, not having to send that money off to the ME or Venezuela, etc.

Further, legalization of industrial hemp will eliminate the current model's (Corn) affect on the food supply. We can grow enough to fuel our entire fleet on land the federal government currently pays people to do nothing with and land not fit for much else due to Hemps resiliency.

No infrastructure problems, other than new refineries. No delivery problems. Plenty of new jobs 'growing' fuel and building infrastructure to process the material into fuel, as well as jobs in those facilities when they are done.

That, along with a massive tax cut for both solar system builders as well as consumers, as well as the innovations you speak of and in mass transit will further eliminate the need for petroleum in the longer term. 'Brown power,' or turning manure into electricity with digesters, should be implemented on a large scale and supported with tax breaks creating tens of thousands more jobs.

That way businesses, special needs people, etc, can get a break without having society change it's habits overnight. Get trucking mostly off of petroleum and the price should follow the lack of demand.

We need real leadership on this issue. Practical solutions that can produce fairly immediate results, coupled with longer-term planning and R&D in many areas, to get us out of this crisis. It can be done. It just takes the political will to go against HUGE oil money.

[CounterPropagandist]

35. No the real problem is NOT Detroit but Wall Street and Bushies

The real problem is the "Giant Sucking Sound", the fanatacism for Free Trade instead of Fair Trade that has made our automakers and our workers compete with cheap foreign labor, where the standards of living are much poorer. This is an attack ont he middle class, the end game. We need to protect our workers, and our unions. Why shouldn't we pursue the American dream of prosperity for our workers? What's wrong with that? That's what we are all working for.

Why do you think the economy is tanking? You can't gut the middle class and still have customers. In the end, customers are workers, too. It's OUR money. So who is going to buy our cars if nobody has any money? This country prospered on the business philosophy of Henry Ford that he would pay enough to his workers even if it were higher than the market so they could afford to buy a car themselves, and that makes sense. If nobody has a job, who can afford to buy anything? It's a vicious circle.

Don't you think that the simple fact that the economy is tanking and the banks aren't lending money to buy cars anymore must have SOMETHING to do with it perhaps? Blaming Detroid is just a way to blame ourselves for something we are not responsible for. You say they made mistakes by selling SUVs? Who bought those SUVs? We did. This is just an excuse for Detroit to take the blame. And we all are going to be destroyed by it if Congress does not act to stop it, and perhaps get back to the concept of Fair Trade.

Don't blame Detroit. Blame Walls Street and Bush, for deregulating and tanking our economy.

[Gman2]

37. It is not Bush, fannie or freddie that make boring, money pits

Every american car I have owned was a hole in my wallet. Put three trannies in a taurus wagon. Almost lost a friend when I sold him my daytona. Powerpaks, etc.

Our obsession with perfect safety, massive head and stretching room has made SUV's almost ineviteable. We upped the ante with the all up weights. Now, even my miata is a goner with an SUV. And they are driven just like a car. Lane jumping, speeding, texting and other distractions, while done in a 5 or 6 thousand pound car is HOMICIDE. Tailgating is far more infuriating with a beast in the mirror. Fools should not be able to threaten us with death. We are a fat, lazy people. We want to be pampered. We dont want to wrestle the baby seat into the back. We, as a people, must be more flexible. I hear even dems complaining about ANY changes that might possibly impact them. A four wheel motorcycle, is a grand idea. Save matls. Cost less. Easy to fix. Easy to retrofit. Fun as hell. When they meet, it isnt so ugly. When they do property damage, it is far less. And styling, when you go truly aerodynamic, is pretty set. So, you dont have to get another one every three years. With 100 mpg, we can again entertain car rides, like when we were kids.

Before any of this can happen, we must give Detroit some assurance, that if they design a truly green car, they wont go broke paying lawsuits when 6000 pounds flatten them. The faster we scrap SUV's the better. We also need to loosen the kitcar strictures. Maintenance will increase a little, with a higher performance vehicle. We would need yearly inspections. The cornering and stopping, with my concept, would be phenomenal. This alone, would improve accident rates for single driver incidents.

There really is NO alternative, weight MUST come down. Before we go electric, it must be lean.

[Gman2]

38. Just for everyones information, I fly electric airplanes, sailplanes

I know JUST how close we are to viable systems. The concept of electric flight is ALLLLLL about weight. I have a high performance limited motor run sailplane, that will launch from hand, and remain vertical to speck distance. Going eighty mph. The longevity of these systems needs maturation. And the amount of maintenance is daunting. If you make a mistake, it can be expensive.

Just the silentness of electric flight is a joy. The cleanliness, the lack of moving parts, makes what we refer to as slimers, as intolerable. I can hardly weight{pun intended} for my plugin.

[Gman2]

40. My concept without the extra two training wheels. Yes, I built it.

Fifty pounds lighter, lower, 150 hp at the wheels, is quite efficient. I get 600 cc type mileage. And it will do low 9's/high 8's in the quartermile. Not that it is designed to dragrace. Lightweight also allows relatively high gearing and still take off smartly. This is directly applicable to mileage. And helps in city mpg.

[Gman2]

46. Come to think of it, maybe the big three make trucks, and motorcycle mfgs.

make our cars. They are far more innovative. They are less risk averse. Quicker to impliment tech. They are used to designing light and efficient.