(begging for dollars) U.S. auto execs plead for Congress

[katty]

more: http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSTRE4AD08120081118?sp=true

U.S. auto execs plead for Congress to fund bailout
Tue Nov 18, 2008 5:07pm ESTPost
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Trading will never be the same.By John Crawley and Kevin Drawbaugh

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. auto executives took their case for a $25 billion industry bailout to Congress on Tuesday, warning that the industry was teetering on the brink of disaster as they work to overcome political opposition.

The hearings come as government and business officials around the globe decide if, and how, they should commit billions of taxpayer dollars to bolster struggling automakers.

Rick Wagoner, the head of General Motors Co, bluntly told the Senate Banking Committee why the executives were there.

"This is about much more than just Detroit," Wagoner said in written testimony. "It's about saving the U.S. economy from a catastrophic collapse."

[amdezurik]

1. sure

but make sure the first thing they do is refill the pension funds they raided

[Diclotican]

2. katty

katty

I would say it is tragic, if the american car industry was to fall, and not at least what it would say for american economy when ten of thousands of people is been laid off, maybe hundred of thousands of people been laid off, because of what happened when their company is going under.. That means Ford, Chrysler, GM and the lot...

But for the last 30 year, the US car manufactures have not build car the rest of the world need, or wanted.. Yes in the upper class of super cars, the american have been supreme, even that they have been hurt hard by the Italians, and the germans there too.. But in every other segment of the industry, the US have been hit hard the last 30 year.. I am not that old, little over 30 year, but I still remember the old and strong car we had home.. I still remember, with fondness the V8 engine and all the sounds there after... But as my age progressed, i do remember that the germans, the japanese and the rest of the car producing world, was going from have this rather shabby cars, compared to americans, to have decent, up to very decent car.. Even a rust car like Nissan and Toyota have since the 1990s made good cars, and have today a big chunk of the worlds car.. In every segment that is... And they are comfortable and inexpensive to drive compared to an american made car. And that is the most important case for the rest of the world, who are not spoiled as the US are, when it came to the prize of Petrol.. The US car industry have probably believed that the rest of the world would love to get cars who are using 1.xxx on the liter, when the american are just paiing pennis to the dollar.. For the same petrol.. Today I know the issue is a little different, the US have been hit hard by the price of petrol - as had the rest of the world.. And in any cases, american's is far mor depended about their car then we on this side of the atlantic are, we have for the most part still a decent train and public transport network between and in our cities.. Even that it could be far better than it is then.. But compared to american city's I would say we have a decent transport system even here in the cold northern europe...

If the car industry in US are to survive, in one or another fashion, maybe owned by Toyota, Nissan and other car industry gig ants, they have to build cars who are far more effective than the current are..And it would mean also, that the american have to be used to far smaller cars then they are used to.. No more big, gas guzzling SUVs with a V8 og a V12 but rather the far smaller V6, V5, V4 and so on..My "new" car I have today, after my old Corolla have to go to the "steel factory", the rust and the age was taking its toll on the car, that and 325.000km was making the car to much to repair.. My "new" car, are far bigger, and are an Nissan 2.0 16V SRi.. And even that it use a little more petrol it is still far mor inexpensive than the american product I was locoing on before I decided on the Nissan.. The one american car I was very interested in, a GM, was using 1.1L on the Mile (an european mile that is) and it would say it is far More expensive to drive than the japanese product...

IF the US car manufactures was to learn how to make lean, mean cars, who also have the positive impact that they do not use more than the current family size european and japanese cars.. Then you can be in the loop againg... But as long as the american big tree are still buildings car that no one than the american would have.. Then the big tree are just doomed to be killed down the road.. No I am not bashing the american car industry.. But the american car industry, specially them in the upper management have been lazy, and have not been following the world.. When you can get a BMW, or an Audi, on both compact class, and family size for less price, and far better equipment than the american product can give you. Audi and BMW are also give you a far more "bang for the buck" because they are using small engines, with a lot of horsepower. Even my Nissan Primera have just a 4 stroke engine.. With 150 horsepower.. And a new brand Audi A4-A6 og the S series have mote than twice what I have.. , what do you do?.. Most of us would not get the american product, because of the size, and for the fact that the Audi, BMW, and a lot of the other cars are using far less petrol. It does not matter if you get a V8, when you can get a V6 og an V4 (some Volvo's have V5) who are using far less petrol, and are with more comfort than the american have... The US have been lazy the last 30 year. And that is the reason the rest of the world would not have american made car - not in the same case it was for 30 or 40 year ago. When the US car manufactures indeed made some of the most beautifully, and great cars... The american car industry have indeed revolutionized the car industry, and have also made some of the most great super cars in the world.. And still does. But in the most other segment, they have been very lazy in many ways.. If the Car industry was to survive (and some part of my really want the US car industry to survive) you have to change a lot from your ways.. And build cars for the future.. Not just stabling away as a drunk man with the luck and hope that the cheap petrol are here again - that would never happened again I am afraid.. If someone are making something that is better, and cheaper than the oil, then maybe... But I would guess that would not be happening no where fast...

Please survive, please work hard to get the american car industry up to speed again.. Stop this killing of the american car industry, who have been a "willed work" for more than tree decades.. The world deserve the american industry, but that means the american industry also have to fit the shoe they want to walk in.. Today the shoe and the foot are not the same... The world need, and want smaller, less expensive to drive cars.. The mass segment of the world car drives are not found of using a lot of their salaries to petrol. Not in the same way that you do when you drive a GM truck.. or an american Ford or Chrysler..
I hope, in the end that the car industry in US are to survive, and to have a leadership, that understand what is at stake here.. It look like they do not know this yet - and have to learn it the hard way. If the US car industry can build a car, who are smaller, leaner, meaner and to be blunk, modern in every respect, then even I who are in a serious "love affair" with japanese cars could be tempted to have an american car... Today the american car industry are far less advanced, and have not the same standard, that the rest of the world are used to.. Audi BMW, Volkswagen (who's survives after ww2 was greatly the reason behind the west german "industry wonder". And it was an american who was giving the Volkswagen cars the needed help to survive in the 1940s.. (from 1945 that is). And today the Volkswagen are one of the biggest car manufactures in the world.. And that is just some of the BIG European car industry.. We have a lot smaller segment, with ordinary cars, and more sports cars.. Like the Massarati, the Ferrari, the Bugatti and so on.. They see to survive, why could not the american car industry, who have spearheaded the whole concept of cars to the people in more than 100 year do the same?.. I would guess old Henry Ford would be tearing in his grave if he know that the Ford of today is nothing that he was making... Well the cars have been better, but when you can't work against young concurrents like Nissan and Toyota.. Then you have a problem on your hand..

Diclotican

Sorry my bad english, not my native language

[katty]

3. yes, we've had the problem for quite awhile...

you write:

>If the car industry in US are to survive, in one or another fashion, maybe owned by Toyota, Nissan and other car industry gig ants, they have to build cars who are far more effective than the current are..And it would mean also, that the american have to be used to far smaller cars then they are used to.. No more big, gas guzzling SUVs

agree with you!--GM&all should have had a 'backup' plan a decade ago, to get prepared for the price of gas/petrol, they have brought this on themselves-and now we will have to pay for it one way or another. I think they will file bankruptcy and have to totally (finally) restructure their business models, United Auto Workers contract, etal.
The day of the SUV dinosaur is totally over and out.

[Diclotican]

4. katty

katty

True, The GM, Ford, Chrysler, and the rest of the industry, have had NO other "backup plan" to how to build cars. Even how the Big tree are building their cars are far less advanced than the rest of the world are using to build cars.. The US car industry, have been very lazy, and just survived on "Old memory".. The danger is that in the end, the US car industry are making cars that the rest of the world outside US would not have, because the rest of the industry are building better and more advanced cars.. My "new" car are from 1997, but Lord, it is something else than my Corolla from 1987.. Both how the handling of the car is, and specially how the engine is.. Small, but with a lot of "Punch":).. Dangerous to drive sometimes.... :evilgrin:

I am afraid that in any cases the "price tag" for the rebuilding of the US industry would came to the tax payers.. Last time around, the whole industry, and not just the Car industry was been hit hard by the 1930s.. And it was not before WW2, and the rebuild of american war industry and all the other industry who was involved in the war, that the US industry as at whole was making a comeback. And what a comeback it was.. And for more than 60 year the US industry have been instrumental if not spearheaded how the industry have been looking.. The Marshall plan, and the rebuilding of both Japan and West Germany was indeed the help that the US was given us.. And today we have the situation That both Germany and Japan is building some of the greatest car in the world - and the US are digging them selfs a grave it is almost impossible to dig themelf out of.. It would mean that the american tax paiers - again have to give the money necessary to keep the industry afloat. as log as they need to rebuild the industry.. It Looks like the "free market economy" have been hit hard by the reality here. The GOVERNMENT have to decide what to do... And if the US government was to give the car industry the need they are in need of.. It should also means the GM, Ford, Chrysler and every other industry who are given help, have to plan for something very new.. Smaller, more effective cars, who are far better on the millage than the current one... Whole fabrics have to be retooled to the new cars, and the american public have just to be used to the fact, that it is NOT an human right to have a SUV who are using excessive petrol.. It is no right to have that big Truck, parked in your driveway, when you really do not need it.. If you just drive from your home, to your work in the inner City, yo do not need a 3.5 tonne Truck to do the work.. A far smaller car can do the same and with less impact on the world.. Yes it is maybe more "safe" but still... I am afraid that the american "Love affair" with their big Cars is coming to a end.. A brutal end maybe, but even then, an end.. Maybe you can manage to rebuild that amazing public transport you once had in the US. Something that was the envy of the rest of the world.. Even Soviet Russia was using many of the same concepts for their public transports in the Cit yes to get their city's going.. St Petersburg (Leningrad) Volgograd (Stalingrad) Moscow, and the rest of the bigger city's every one of them, was in large part using the blue prints of the 1950s american public transport.. Today even Russia have a lot more effective public transport system then most US city's have. Not to say the rest of Europe.. And it looks like even here in Norway the plans for faster train than the current are on the table..Some planes for a train system that could ease the hour between the large city's to hours.. A whole new system of railroad between the largest City's could mean that the travel time between Oslo and Trondheim (The capital and the 3 largest city in Norway) could go down from 5-8 hour to mer 4 hour... That mean a lot when you think about it.. But I would guess it would take a least a decade before the first track is beginning to be laid, We like to discuss a case to the near death, then decide a line and build it... It took more than 40 year before the "main airport" at Gardermoen Oslo Airport was been made possible.. Even that other airports maybe was better suited to be the main gateway into Norway.. But in the end Gardermoen was the chosen airport (the ICAO code is ENGM by the way)

Diclotican

Sorry my bad english, not my native language

[katty]

5. check this out

http://ww.paulchefurka.ca/Momentum.html

Check this article/commentary out from another poster on DU. There is/will continue to be much upheaval and change in the U.S. and worldwide. We cannot hold on to the past, especially an industrial age that is effectively, over-and the addictive reliance on fossil fuels. Change is always hard-there is just no way around that fact. I look at the sun now and the blue sky here at the beach in California and I am grateful for those moments looking at the water, the sand...the greed that has so infected our way of life is intolerable, the system is breaking down before our eyes, as it must.

[Diclotican]

6. katty

katty

This is scary stuff.. I have never experienced really poordom, but I do know how it is, even in rich Norway not to have a lot of everything.. And i KNOW how it can be, when your stomage is hungry, but your refrigerator is near empty, and the pocket is also empty.. If it was not for my dear family, some of them was driving from other side of the City to give my a decent meal and something to have in the refrigerator I have no clue what to do the first year I was living alone...

And it Will be problems, true, but if we as humans manage to get over the addiction to oil, specially cheap oil I am very sure that we can came a long way just there. And even that it will be hard to survive, for a long while I am more positive than this article is pointing to. I do believe that we as humans can do everything we will, if we was there to do it. Today many believe that capitalism will make everything ok.. In the 1930s it was proven wrong - and I am afraid that our generation will learn it to. Unchecked Capitalism is bad, and dangerous.. I have parents, specially my foster father who was growing up in the 1930s, and the little he have told when he lived was that they was poor, very poor, but they survived.. Maybe he had forgotten the hungry part, but he have told me some stories, maybe I was not following it to closely... So I am not sure I remember everything..

In the 20-30 year who are ahead it would be a large sum of changes to survive, that is true.. In California as in Norway where I live, our dependence of oil, and product from oil would be something we have to change.. And today I am not sure what the next great product will be.. But some how I do believe that we can do this.. If we want it.. We can produce something that is far better than our current internal combustion engine.. We can produce something that can be revolution to how we travel. I doubt we would discover something like in Star Trek, event that THAT would be cool.. But if we survive and our civilization was to survive, in another form than today. We can work together to a better future than our current capitalistic system can do.. No one can eat money..

You are living in California, Ah a place I want to visit sometimes in the future.. But I guess it is sometimes far away in the future then... Anyway I still believe that the future is better than the past. Even if the future would be hard to survive. We may not be that rich as our parents.. But we maybe are getting something in return that our parents never got? Maybe we even will se the end of one system, and the reborn of an other system who are far better to survive.. To be honest, I have never fully believed in the capitalistic system. Not because it doesn't work, but rather because it are given us to much pain in the end. When you think about it, 3 billion humans have not fresh water every day, not even every week. In many poor country fresh water is an monopoly, and they are using thugs to defend that.. To have Fresh water should be an human Right, comparable to free speech Maybe ecological thinking, and ecological living Will be the new form.. I for one, if I had the money would use ecological Principe's to build my home.

I am maybe just a naive dreamer, bu I do belive we can do the right thing in the end.. And we can surive and rebuild a far better sivilisation in the end too. When the greed and the stupid ideology is proven false, I would belive the masses in the world would agree that we have to do it diferent, far different from what we are doing it today.. Maybe we can get rid of money all toghter if we shoose to do it a radical other way?.. I am not sure.

Diclotican

Sorry my bad english, not my native language.

[katty]

7. i am all for getting on with the better, cleaner technologies

right away--we have already wasted SO MUCH TIME delaying the inevitable. Capitalists are not the only greedy bunch on the planet, greed and selfishness come in many nasty forms. Water, shelter, food and necessities of life should be a human right, and sharing/cooperation between the nations 'could work'-- but it will take a shift in consciousness/focus and the will to SHARE. In my opinion, I think humanity is at the precipice of making this kind of choice-but the old ways, for sure, don't work anymore.