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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 07:20 AM
Original message
Guns and hate are on rise in America
http://www.suntimes.com/news/jackson/1625036,CST-EDT-jesse17.article

Guns and hate are on rise in America

June 17, 2009

BY JESSE JACKSON

snip//

Adding guns to the festering hate in America is like pouring gasoline on fire. Now, our police are outgunned on our own streets. Gun show loopholes allow would-be terrorists or haters easy access to guns. Concealed weapons will take an ever-greater toll as they turn bar arguments into lethal encounters. There are at least 200 million guns in America.

This isn't about hunting deer or quail. This is about arming the haters, giving them the right to conceal weapons or arm themselves with assault weapons that are made for only one thing: killing lots of people.

Hate is on the rise. Guns are on the rise. Hate and guns are a deadly combination. Most Americans are neither haters nor gun nuts. Most support commonsense laws to limit easy access to guns. Few want to arm themselves with a concealed weapon to enter a restaurant or a national park. It is hard to find anyone who thinks it a good idea for our police to be outgunned on our streets, or for would-be terrorists to have easy access to assault weapons.

Guns will not provide economic security. Hunters do not need assault weapons to kill deer. Honest gun owners have a huge stake in policing the sale of guns so the nuts and haters have a hard time getting them.

But instead of strengthening our laws after 9/11, we have been weakening them. The majority is getting rolled by a mobilized minority. Only leadership can turn that around.
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old mark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 07:41 AM
Response to Original message
1. I am sorry to see that Jesse Jackson still buys the GOP bullshit that
Democrats are anti-gun. I am sorry to see he is still spreading the lies of the GOP controlled anti-gun groups.

mark
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 07:57 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. What legislation has been passed by the Dems, who are in the
majority, to control anything having to do with guns? Links welcomed, thanks.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. Dem's haven't. That's why the the MSM, Jackson, and the repubs at the Brady Campaign
are complaining so much recently.

Never mind that crime is still down, that murders of police officers are near all-time lows...gotta pump up the fear and drag that wedge issue back onto the table...
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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 08:07 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. "GOP controlled anti-gun groups"?
In contrast to those notorious bastions of liberalism the NRA & the GOA.

:eyes:
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old mark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-18-09 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. The Brady group and Handgun Control Inc are both founded and led
by Republicans.

mark
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Paladin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-18-09 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. And What Percentage Of Those Groups' MEMBERSHIPS Are Now Republican?

Anybody with a brain bigger than a small pistol primer knows that the Bradys and HCI are espousing views on guns that are diametrically opposed to those of the Republican Party. The gun activism movement has been publicly sucking the tit of Republicans for decades, with overwhelmingly positive results. This whole "founded and led" straw man is getting pretty worn out, Mark. Best to utilize something more persuasive......
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-18-09 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. What membership? They seem to be mostly foundation funded with a few staff
and token membership only, as far as I can tell.
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MicaelS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 08:05 AM
Response to Original message
3. Why did you feel it was necessary
To create a thread that is almost a duplicate of this one? http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x456861
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Perhaps I didn't see that one?
This was dated today, so I assumed it was new.

But hey, thanks for the kick.
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
6. Jesse's buying in to too many myths here.
"Most support commonsense laws to limit easy access to guns. Few want to arm themselves with a concealed weapon to enter a restaurant or a national park."

Actually, a majority of Americans support either keeping gun laws as they are or reducing gun laws. Most states allow concealed carry, including in places that serve alcohol, without turning anything into a bloodbath. And violent crime rates, particularly murder, have declined sharply in the last 20 years.

"Honest gun owners have a huge stake in policing the sale of guns so the nuts and haters have a hard time getting them."

The problem is that most of the proposed laws have the effect of primarily harassing or blocking honest gun owners. For instance, some of the proposed laws in California to ban the sale or transfer of more than 50 rounds of ammunition a month, when people who shoot competitively or recreationally go through hundreds or thousands. The only people who WOULDN'T be inconvenienced would be criminals.
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dmallind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
7. So are credit card delinquencies and gas mileage - which are about as relevant
So many fallacies and scaredy cat crap it's hard to know where to start. I'll try.

1. There is no gun show loophole. Private sales are intrastate commerce too.

2. Legal concealed weapons are incredibly rarely used in crimes. People with permits in most states undergo rigorous background checks. They are not the problem.

3. Since when are the police outgunned? Every officer has a sidearm - almost always a high-capacity semiauto these days - and every squad car has a tactical shotgun. The most common gun used in violent crimes is a .38 revolver. There has never to my knowledge been a case where cops failed to apprehend a suspect because they didn't have enough guns.

4. Hunting is not mentioned in the 2nd amendment and barely in passing in the debates and writings that shaped the BOR. It really ISN'T about hunting deer or quail. But then it never has been.

5. "Assault weapons" are used in crimes less often than CCW's commit them even. Even the ugly black plastic rifles most people seem to THINK are "assault weapons" are very very rarely used, and incidentally are far far less powerful than even a youth hunting rifle.

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burning rain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-18-09 01:05 AM
Response to Original message
10. And we're sure to see more of militias and separatist communities.
Edited on Thu Jun-18-09 01:09 AM by burning rain
Racial, religious, etc. There was enough of that during Bubba's two terms, and the way the right freaked out over him doesn't even compare to what we're seeing now. I've heard so, so many righties bawling that they wish Bubba were president. Ha! as brother Tweets would say, and double HA!

As Talking Heads put it, "Hold tight; we're in for nasty weather."
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Hard2believe Donating Member (35 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-18-09 11:02 AM
Response to Original message
13. Most States?
Can anyone tell me what one of the posters mentioned as MOST states have concealed carry in places where alcohol is served; what do you mean by most states? If that means upward of 25 I'd be interested to know where these sates are so that I can avoid them.

Secondly, it appears as in most of these discussions that the gun fan crowd never answer the simple questions when posed. Why are there so many mass shootings in the US and not in any other industrialized country to the same degree or even close?

Is registering a gun a bad thing?

Is knowing who has what and how many a bad thing when it comes to utensils that are responsible for 30,000 deaths a year?

Just asking.
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-18-09 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Some answers..
Can anyone tell me what one of the posters mentioned as MOST states have concealed carry in places where alcohol is served; what do you mean by most states? If that means upward of 25 I'd be interested to know where these sates are so that I can avoid them.




Secondly, it appears as in most of these discussions that the gun fan crowd never answer the simple questions when posed. Why are there so many mass shootings in the US and not in any other industrialized country to the same degree or even close?


Because we treat the poor like shit. We have no effective safety net that would stop people from thinking they have to turn to crime. Because our lack of mental health care coverage means that we turn crazies back to the streets when they don't qualify for medicaid.

Is registering a gun a bad thing?


Yes. 1) It only affects those willing to abide by the law. 2) Should another shrub-like government turn totalitarian, I'd rather not provide them a list of owners to go visit for confiscation.

Is knowing who has what and how many a bad thing when it comes to utensils that are responsible for 30,000 deaths a year?


What makes you think registration would actually result in knowing what / how many? Obviously criminals wouldn't, and even a bastion of gun control like Canada estimates that only between 30-50% of their guns are registered. Here's an interesting article on the 'remainder' problem.
http://lawreview.law.wfu.edu/documents/issue.43.837.pdf
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FailureToCommunicate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-18-09 12:26 PM
Response to Original message
15. Thanks for stirring this hornets' nest. I'll make some popcorn...
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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-18-09 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
16. A message of fear. You'd think he was a GOP hack.
Edited on Thu Jun-18-09 01:26 PM by gorfle
Now, our police are outgunned on our own streets.

Yet police murders continue to be on the decline and are at the lowest levels in years.

Gun show loopholes allow would-be terrorists or haters easy access to guns.

But no more access than, say, the classified ads in your local newspaper, or web sites like www.gunbroker.com

Concealed weapons will take an ever-greater toll as they turn bar arguments into lethal encounters.

Every state that has taken up "shall issue" CCW permits has had a decrease in crime. The "blood in the streets" hue and cry never came to pass. CCW permit holders have been shown to be many times, sometimes hundreds of times less likely to be involved in any crime, let alone firearm crime, than your average citizen.

There are at least 200 million guns in America.

Belonging to some 40-80 million potential voters.

This isn't about hunting deer or quail. This is about arming the haters, giving them the right to conceal weapons or arm themselves with assault weapons that are made for only one thing: killing lots of people.

Interestingly, the second amendment is not about hunting deer or quail either. The second amendment is about putting military-grade small arms in the hands of the citizenry so as to be able to eliminate the need for or at least counter federal infantry power. Yes, military-grade small arms are designed to kill lots of people - that is what military forces do.

Hate is on the rise. Guns are on the rise. Hate and guns are a deadly combination.

And yet firearm crime is in decline.

Most Americans are neither haters nor gun nuts.

So let's not pass laws that adversely affect the majority of gun owners for the sake of a few bad apples.

Most support commonsense laws to limit easy access to guns.

Before we can decide what constitutes a "commonsense law" concerning firearms we have to agree on the intent of the second amendment.

Few want to arm themselves with a concealed weapon to enter a restaurant or a national park.

But those few who do have been shown to be among the most law-abiding citizens in the nation.

It is hard to find anyone who thinks it a good idea for our police to be outgunned on our streets, or for would-be terrorists to have easy access to assault weapons.

But police murder continues to be on the decline. But that's a nice tip of the hat to the "war on terra" boogeyman.

Guns will not provide economic security.

I imagine the firearm and ammunition manufacturers would beg to differ, considering the epic run on both goods since President Obama took office. In any case, the second amendment is not about securing economic freedom.

Hunters do not need assault weapons to kill deer.

The second amendment is not about hunting.

Honest gun owners have a huge stake in policing the sale of guns so the nuts and haters have a hard time getting them.

I have suggested a way to to this several times:

Today, the only firearm sales that go through a National Instant Check System (NICS) background check are those through a federally licensed dealer. All intra-state private sales, whether at a gun show between two private individuals, at a kitchen table, through a newspaper classified ad, or through a web site, do not have to go through a background check.

To halt this deficiency I propose the following:

Whenever anyone goes to obtain a driver's license or state-issued ID, they will automatically be screened through NICS for firearm ownership suitability, unless they choose to opt out. If you pass the NICS check, the back of your driver's license or state-issued ID will be marked with a Firearm Ownership ID (FOID) number. This number indicates that you are illegible to own firearms.

At any time, should you be convicted of a felony, involuntarily admitted to a mental institution, or adjudicated mentally incompetent, your ID will be revoked, and the local sheriff will be dispatched to your address to confiscate the ID and any firearms found in the possession of the individual. If the ID is conveniently "lost" and unable to be confiscated the ID could only be used for continued firearm sales until it expires, which all IDs do.

At the time of any firearm sale, public or private, the buyer will have to submit his ID to the seller, who will make a record of the FOID number and keep it for 10 years, under threat of of steep criminal penalty. Such a record could be made by hand, by photocopy of the back of the ID (which will contain no personally-identifying information), or by scanning it, or even photographing it with a cell-phone camera.

Any firearm recovered in a crime can then be traced from first sale all the way to the current owner. Any previous owner who could not provide a record of selling it would face steep criminal penalties. This would virtually eliminate "straw purchases", where someone purchases a firearm for someone not legally able to own them. Such a sale would immediately be seen as extremely risky, as if the firearm ever turned up in a crime it would be traced right back to the last legitimate owner.

Such a program would insure that every firearm owner has gone through a background check and is illegible to own firearms, while preserving anonymous firearm ownership, and provides traceability of any firearm through investigative police work and due process of law.

The majority is getting rolled by a mobilized minority.

If the rights of the minority could be trampled at will by the majority Jesse Jackson might still be a slave.

Constitutional rights are rights for all citizens.
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USADiversity Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-11-09 11:57 PM
Response to Original message
17. Hate and Profit
Hate will continue as long as people can make money off of it.

Before 1865 90% of Southern whites were in poverty. 10% made a lot of money
Hitler promoted hate and almost gained all of Europe
Elysha Mohammad made $85 million selling hate for whites
Rush Limba has made millions hating everyone
Hate for Arabs has made Lockheed Martin $200 billion and Halliberton...

As long as people will buy hate someone will sell it.

We need to make people aware that if they hate then they will lose money.
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