Defenders of Christianity Rush to Debunk 'The Da Vinci Code'

[RoyGBiv]

This is almost funny...rushing to debunk A NOVEL. Sheesh.

Defenders of Christianity Rush to Debunk 'The Da Vinci Code'
By LAURIE GOODSTEIN

Fearing that the best-selling novel "The Da Vinci Code" may be sowing doubt about basic Christian beliefs, a host of Christian churches, clergy members and Bible scholars are rushing to rebut it.

In 13 months, readers have bought more than six million copies of the book, a historical thriller that claims Christianity was founded on a cover-up — that the church has conspired for centuries to hide evidence that Jesus was a mere mortal, married Mary Magdalene and had children whose descendants live in France.

Word that the director Ron Howard is making a movie based on the book has intensified the critics' urgency. More than 10 books are being released, most in April and May, with titles that promise to break, crack, unlock or decode "The Da Vinci Code." Churches are offering pamphlets and study guides for readers who may have been prompted by the novel to question their faith. Large audiences are showing up for Da Vinci Code lectures and sermons.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/27/books/27CODE.html?hp

[Melodybe]

1. It is a life changing book, I can't wait for the movie.

[FlashHarry]

2. Regardless of the "facts," it's a page turner.

I read it and loved it. I don't for a second believe any of that "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" hooey, but it's a cracking good read, nonetheless.

[papau]

6. I thought it a good read, albeit not not all that factual - he only says

that locations are described correctly - which I agree except he exaggerates a bit to give atmosphere - and that he used a history of myths and ceremonies - which again were expanded a bit beyond truth.

But while I enjoyed the book - despite the lame ending - I found many that I gave the book to felt it was a boring conspiracy nut case tale.

Different tastes for different folk I guess.

:-)

[Th1onein]

41. Isn't it a novel, though?

Novels use "poetic licence." We shouldn't expect most of it to be true, should we?

Leave it to the fundies to freak out, though. Geez.

[2Design]

3. Cool sounds as exciting as celestine prophecy

Must be great if the church is putting it down. All non christians will love it and the church will help christian sales by banning it.

LOL

I remember when the catholic church banned West Side Story.

[arendt]

4. I've been expecting this, all the time I've been pushing the book...

on anyone I can.

The book is totally subversive of brain-dead, literal Christianity
and the venal, murderous, corrupt history of the Catholic Church.

This book has the potential to reach critical mass and blow a
huge whole in the sanctimonious bunkum that passes for
spirituality in many so-called Christian denominations.

I'm surprised it took those paranoid fanatics this long to crank
up a counter-attack. I guess they were too busy whacking off
to Mel Gibson's sado-fest.

But, now those chumps finally realized how much this book
was undermining their credibility. And, its not just the one book.
Every bookstore I have been in recently has surrounded the
DaVinci Code with every book written about Mary Magdalen,
the Knights Templars, the Freemasons, the Illuminati, etc.

The DaVinci Code has become a pied piper for every book
that the Catholics would have put on the Proscribed List.
(I forget what they called the list - but if you read such a book,
you committed a mortal sin. )

I can't wait for the movie. I went to a book signing and got my
copy personally autographed. Dan Brown is a totally nice guy.
He gave away the proceeds of the signing event to a local
charity.

arendt

[whistle]

5. Yep, but isn't there some historical basis for the plot...

...this was just not the author Dan Brown's imagination that contrived this idea.

[papau]

7. The Jesus wife has been discussed - it's plausible

But beyond that I'm afraid all is just good writing!

At least in my opinion.

:-)

[pacifictiger]

27. there have been other books written

around these subjects.
Two that I have read and can think of right away are
"The Hiram Key" which delves from Egypt to the Knights Templar, Masons, Roslyn, and more.
"In God's Name" which chronicals suspicious events surrounding the death of the last pope, who died mysteriously after an extremely short time in office. The premise was he intended to investigate irregularities with the Vatican Banking system so was prematurely terminated from office before he could cause problems. Written by an acclaimed British investigative author whose name escapes me at the moment. Both are hard to get. I did hear a rumor years back that the catholic church either bought up as many copies as it could to minimize distribution, and/or somehow quashed any more being published.

[k in IA]

8. Loved it - makes you just wish you could find out the "truth".

[Merlin]

22. The truth is as plain as day.

Sadly it doesn't comply with what we were taught as kids.

The old testament is simply a collection of tribal histories and folk lore.

The new testament was the inspiration of Paul, a man who never met Jesus except in his dreams. The Gospels were written decades after Jesus died, by men who never met him. They were given the names Matthew, Mark, Luke and John arbitrarily about a century later.

The church, after being taken over by the Roman emperor Constantine in 313 AD, became essentially a defender of the establishment. It denied Jesus social reformation teachings, and focused on the myth of "redemption."

Ever ask yourself why a man who is God MUST die to placate the wrath of God for a "sin" committed by the first man on earth? Doesn't make sense, does it. Good rule: If it doesn't make sense, it just ain't so.

Interestingly, Jesus wasn't even the man's name! Jesus is Greek for the name he was called in his native Aramaic tongue: Yeshua.

And he was never referred to as "Christ." That's a Greek term for "Messiah" invented by St. Paul.

The body and blood thing? Invented by St. Paul.

And on and on...

[fairfaxvadem]

9. Oh Phooey...what a bunch of killjoys

I love this kind of stuff.

Hey, remember the novel The Word (I think), came out late 70s or early 80s, it was about the 'discovery' of another gospel, etc?? I thought it was a page turner too. But I haven't read it since then so maybe the old memory ain't so good. They were all bent out of shape over that too.

Anyhow, just another fundie attack, a la Salman Rushdie...

These folks must believe in a really limited "God" is all I can think..I feel sorry for them mostly.

[Gildor Inglorion]

11. Another really good one: "The Q Document"

n/t

[RoyGBiv]

13. If I'm not mistaken...

Isn't that actually supposed to be a historical work?

One of the books that attempts to trace the historical events surrounding the compilation of the Christian Bible refers to it several times.

[papau]

14. Wasn't "Q" the name give a writing style indentified via computer

the idea being that the same person wrote - or at least edited - that section of the Bible?

[RoyGBiv]

17. Well, I think so..

There's definitely some alphabet stuff going on with the titling of the writers of various passages. I don't know enough background to understand this fully. I've only read a few books and have tried to compare and contrast that to what I was taught in various churches when I was younger.

I dug out the book I was thinking about. It's Who Wrote the New Testament? by Burton Mack, whom I understand is kind of a pop historian, but I don't really know for certain. I study 19th century American political history and just branch out into this for fun, so I don't know the names of the professionals.

Anyway, yes, he refers to the "sayings" of Q and how they ended up being a part of various gospels, but he also defines it as one of several particular "Jesus movements," or cults that built around either legends related to Jesus or actual followers of Jesus. An appendix lists and categorizes the various Q texts.

One of the things I liked about this book is that explores these things in the context of my interests. That is, it builds a model of the origins of the Christian myths that examines the political world of the 1st century CE and how various Jewish cults interacted.

Interesting stuff.

[starroute]

20. "Q" is not intended to be the name of a person

It's from a German word -- "quellen," I think, or something like that.

The idea is that if you analyze the supposed utterances of Jesus from the Gospels, you can divide them into three groups. Some are dismissed as being very late, because they reflect a highly-organized church, or an apocalyptic worldview, or other things which are assumed to date only from after the destruction of the Temple. Others do not seem quite that late, but are dismissed for other reasons as being things Jesus is not likely to have actually said.

What remains is thought to have formed a book of the "Sayings of Jesus," which may have been in circulation before the writing of the Gospels and was drawn on by those writers. At least, that's the theory. I'm not altogether convinced, myself -- most of those materials seem likely to have been part of the general wisdom literature of the period, and may never have formed a "book."

[RoyGBiv]

21. Fits with what I've read for the most part...

I should have made clearer that in the book I mentioned, Q wasn't considered a person. Mack lumps the Q sayings together as part of a particular branch of the various Jesus movements.

[papau]

29. That fits my memory - the other pattern recognition sections had other

letters assigned to them.

I never saw any proof that the pattern picked up by the computer proved anything - but it produced a few popular books.

[Merlin]

33. Stil working on "The Q Gospel"; needed because NT gospels are hearsay.

Q stands for Quelle, German for "source".

There has been an ongoing scholarly effort since about 1991 by about 30 biblical scholars ("The Jesus Seminar") to come up with the authentic sayings of Jesus. They are doing it because it has become very clear to biblical scholars that the gospels of the NT are wholly unreliable.

The gospels as we know them were written decades after the crucifixion by people who never met Jesus. They were mostly fictional accounts of the legend of Jesus, with only fragments of what he may have really said.

For complicated, forensic reasons, it is believed there must have been some common document used by all of the gospel writers that had just the bare outlines of the Jesus story, and his true sayings. Of course no such document survives. So they're trying to reconstruct it using clues from comparisons of the existing gospels, as well as the 18 other gospels that were excluded from the NT, only one or two of which may have been written during the 1st century, and the rest much later.

Several of the Jesus Seminar participants have already published their versions of the Q gospel. For example:
The Lost Gospel Q: The Original Sayings of Jesus
by Marcus J. Borg (Editor), Mark Powelson (Editor), Ray Riegert (Editor):
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1569751897/ref=ase_peterkirby/102-4110614-3984137?v=glance&s=books

[papau]

37. Mark is 15 to 20 years after first Good Friday - 2 are at the century mark

and John as I recall was around 120 to 130 -

although how one knows this is not in my memory. :-)

The "18" Gospels refers to the various Churchs which had a "tradional" Gospel at Nicea, as I recall.

The Jesus Seminar folks are folks that do not believe in Christ as God and are out to prove that there are errors in the Bible

So If in Mark, but not in the other synoptic Gospels (Matthew and Luke) - they define the passage/concept as truth - but even here you must accept that all this Son of God stuff is bull - indeed the authors assert that the early Christain community saw Jesus as just another Jewish prophet - not Messiah or son of god (so why did they worship at the Temple - but not with other Jews?).

Even more fun is the idea of getting rid of the translation concept - and going for the overall meaning you "feel" is in the passage.

[Merlin]

46. No. It is concensus that no gospels were written until after destruction..

...of Jerusalem in 70 AD by the Romans in response to the Jewish revolt of 66 AD.

The Jesus Seminar folks are non-fundamentalists, but they are all devout Christians and recognized biblical scholars.

That is not to say they all see Jesus as "The Christ." One can be a follower of Jesus and not a believer in his divinity.

That there are errors in the bible is an understatement! The Bible is riddled with inconsistencies, inaccuracies, inventions, exaggerations, fiction, prejudice, slander, and--in the OT, representations of a "God" so despicable and asinine that to claim the Bible is "The Word of God" is the equivalent of blasphemy.

[enki23]

10. there's a reason christians feel compelled to debunk the fiction of others

it's really not much of a stretch do come up with that reason.

[dweller]

12. hmm, would that be

the Disease of Conceit?

dp

[papau]

16. Christians feel compelled to debunk the fiction of others? - so wrong you

are - I find that a Christian appreciates others that have faith and beliefs. Indeed "Conceit" seems to apply to others who seem to KNOW FOR CERTAIN that Christian's and others are wrong or believe in a fiction.

But that is just my opinion.

:-)

[enki23]

45. i do know for certain christians are wrong

as much as i know *anything* "for certain." i'm as certain the christians are wrong as i am that the earth travels around the sun. no more, no less.

[yellowcanine]

15. Real faith doesn't need to be defended

These fundies are demonstrating the weakness of their arguments. If they would interpret the Bible in a rational way instead of trying to literalize everything, maybe they wouldn't have to be rushing aound in such an unseemly fashion everytime someone presents an alternative hypothesis about origins of the Christian faith or origins of life.

[greenman3610]

18. I went

I went to a book discussion of the Da Vinci Code, where
116 people showed up in my small midwestern town.
They had to turn 60 away.
The topic of the book is probably unprovable, but does
have some basis in fact.
I admire Dan Brown's ability to build a
page turner around some ideas that definitely
deserve wider consideration, which people
are hungry for....

[wabeewoman]

19. I really enjoyed the book

especially the role of women and how they have been supressed by the Catholic church which is rather undeniable. I ordered the Gnostic Gospels to read further. Any other suggestions for follow-up books?

[clidaw]

34. Any other suggestions for follow-up books?

Try "The Jesus Mysteries: Was the original Jesus a pagan god? By Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy. I found it an easy read with great information on how the ancient pagan mystery religions influenced early Christianity.
I was under the impression that "The Da Vinci Code" was along the lines of those Rapture books that are so popular. Shows what I know.

[newyawker99]

35. Hi clidaw!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[JohnyCanuck]

39. Here's another

The Christ Conspiracy http://www.truthbeknown.com/christ.htm The author has another book on the way as well, Suns of God Krishna, Buddha and Christ Unveiled: http://www.truthbeknown.com/sunsofgod.htm . You can read the introduction to Suns of God here: http://www.truthbeknown.com/introduction.htm

Suns of God

Introduction

<snip>

Concerning the resemblances between Buddhism and Christianity, Huc says:

"Those who have studied the system of Buddhism in Upper Asia, have been often struck with the analogy, in many points, between its doctrines, moral precepts, and liturgy, and those of Christian Churches. Unbelievers have exulted at these resemblances, and have inferred immediately that Christianity was copied from the religious systems of India and China.(xviii)"

Again, basic biblical stories and doctrines were found widespread in these vast and isolated regions, established long prior to the arrival of Christian missionaries. The missionary Huc, being a pious man no doubt terrified of what would and eventually did happen to him, excommunication, could not admit to Christian plagiarism, and thus sought to establish the opposite reason for why "Christianity" or the basic astrotheological religion was to be found in Asian countries, before missionaries had arrived there. Hence, he claimed that the "descendants of Noah," having spread out from Judea centuries before the Christian era, were accountable for the correspondences.

Thus, in order to explain Christianity's status as a johnny-come-lately Redeemer religion, its advocates hid behind the pretense that it was "prophesied," a clever way of avoiding the charge of plagiarism that would hound it for millennia. In the final analysis, the idea that a particular people was "chosen" to bring "the hope" of this Redeemer religion to the ignorant masses represents cultural bigotry and supremacy. The fact is that the most salient concepts within Christianity have existed in numerous other cultures; they have been, in reality, the reigning religious ideas, such that they were already well known to a large percentage of people, long before the Judeo-Christian creators decided to "fulfill prophecy" by pretending that the Redeemer had arrived in their country as one of their own people.

[sophie996]

42. FOLLOW-UP SUGGESTION

Laurie R. King's "A Letter of Mary," one in her series of mysteries starring young Mary Russell and her much older husband, Sherlock Holmes. King is a Biblical scholar and super writer. And feminist. I was first attracted to her work by a passage about Biblical mistranslation in "A Monstrous Regiment of Women."

On the heavier side, Karen Armstrong's "History of God." She demonstrates how religions have changed their stories quite regularly to suit the prevailing political winds.

The church is way behind on this--the genie's out of the bottle now.

:thumbsup:

[starroute]

48. Elements of the Christ-story are *far* older than Christianity

There is an exceedingly ancient redeemer story which is found all over the world, from Africa to Siberia to Tierra del Fuego. It is so basic and so universal that it was probably already being told by the first people to leave Africa some 80,000 years ago.

The essence of the story is that a cannibal ogre shows up and eats everyone, except for one woman who escapes. She gives birth miraculously to a son, who soon grows to be unusually strong or may even be born already fully grown. He kills the ogre and cuts its belly open to release the people.

Most hero-stories ever since have reflected this scenario, at least in part -- the fatherless boy (who may be described as the son of a widow or as fathered by a god), his rapid growth and miraculous strength, his climactic battle with the monster to liberate his people. The same basic model lies behind Hercules and Perseus and Theseus, behind Beowulf's fight with Grendel, and even behind the wood-cutter who uses his axe to free Red Riding Hood's grandmother from the belly of the wolf.

Echoes of this hero-story also shape our narratives of historical events, like the American Revolution and the Civil War and World War II. Our invasion of Iraq was justified by presenting it as the liberation of the Iraqis from the monster-ogre Saddam Hussein -- and the failure of that invasion was sealed when we ourselves became the devouring ogre.

The Christ-story represents a particularly faithful (though much spiritualized) mythic reworking of the original. From his miraculous conception and birth to his contention with Satan, harrowing of hell, and release of the souls of the dead, Christ is a point-for-point replica of the most ancient hero-figure. And his role as redeemer is no different from that of every real or legendary redeemer throughout history.

[Merlin]

49. Especially true about influence of Greco-Roman "Paganism" on St. Paul

Paul lived in Tarsus, about 700 miles N of Jerusalem in the Greek city-state of Tarsus, then ruled by the Romans. Throughout the Greco-Roman world at the time, a large number of religions flourished which unquestionably influenced the legends of Jesus.

In particular, the worship of the god Mithras, patron god of Tarsus, influenced him. During ceremonies, worshipers believed Mithras became incarnate in a bull. They slaughtered the bull, ate its flesh and drank its blood as a communion, believing by consuming the actual god, Mithras, it redeemed them and qualified them for eternal life.

This is not to say Jesus didn't live. He surely did--as is evidenced by the testimony of non-Christian historians and observers of the period.

But when Jesus was killed, his legacy was taken over by St Paul, who never even met him, and who popularized fantastical mythology about him, such as the last supper myth, communion, the idea that Jesus died to redeem mankind, and the idea that he will return at the end of creation. Paul was the true founder of Christianity. He gave us the earliest written record of Jesus belief through his epistles (written 20+ years after the crucifixion) and through his energetic travels throughout Asia Minor to establish and sustain his churches.

Paul gave the man whose actual name was Yeshua, in Aramaic, the Greek name Jesus. Then he claimed Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, the Greek word for which was "Christ."

Later, gospel writers who also never met Jesus, enhanced the legend with apocryphal stories of miracles, virgin birth, walking on water, etc. Yeshua would have been appalled.

Jesus wanted the world to focus on his message of peace, love and social reform to aid the poor, sick and aged. But his message has been lost in nonsensical mythology about redemption, body, blood, death, ressurection, etc.

[dArKeR]

23. We don't even know if Romans wore socks way after Christ's time

It is not known religiously or scientifically; (no evidence from either source). I read this article about 8 months ago on MSGOP, I think. I believe I had posted in on the DU but I don't see it when searching. This is incredible. The Bible with such detail but unable to know if Romans wore socks.

Does anyone know the origine date of 'God bless you' when you sneeze. As far as I know, it was said this originated because your body was vulnerable when sneezing which allowed a Satan to enter your body at that moment and could be warded off by another human saying 'God bless you' before the Satan could enter your body.

I think most people have a different religion. I don't think you need organized Bible/Koran... to tell you how to be a moral person.

[RoyGBiv]

24. Sneezes

I have nothing to back this up at the moment. I'm relying on a long dormant brain cell.

I seem to recall that, like a lot of things now associated with more so-called traditional Christianity, offering a blessing after a sneeze has pagan origins. It's as you said: when a person sneezes, supposedly his body is more susceptible to being invaded by evil spirits, but it's not strictly Satan. Like I said, I have nothing on me to back this up at the moment. I just remember it from some ancient history classes in which we explored pre-Christian mythos and how they changed and were adopted by others over time.

[Stuckinthebush]

32. I concur...

Yet have nothing to back it up either!

I have in my memory that story of the origin of the sneeze blessing. It goes back to the middle ages when there was a belief that when one sneezes, the holy spirit is temporarily expelled from the body which allows the Devil to enter in. Therefore, the blessing allows God to re-enter.

This story was connected to my learning the story of blue for boys and pink for girls. Blue was a color that was holy and that the Devil hated blue. Since boys were more valuable than girls, they were dressed in the "holy" color blue. Girls were given pink for no other reason than it was not blue.

Lovely, eh?

[LastDemocratInSC]

25. Based on monastic tradition

Monks believed that if a person sneezed strongly enough, he could "blow out" the breath of life, and that Satan could leap inside his pulmonary tracts between the instant of the sneeze and the moment of the person regaining his breath.

Oh, the world is a strange place, isn't it?

[clidaw]

40. Sneezes and the plague.

I read somewhere that the expression "Bless You" came out of the Dark Ages. It meant that you may have the plague and they were blessing you so you might go to heaven when you died a horrible death. Think about that when you say "Bless You" to someone.

[papau]

30. Seems they wore socks http://www.cronaca.com/archives/001360.html

http://www.cronaca.com/archives/001360.html

And the sneeze has an interesting history as folks tried to understand health - but the "God Bless you" is even more interesting - there was book the traced the various sayings back - a popular book -but seemed like research.

Sigh ... another senior moment as I can't recall the title.

:-)

[dArKeR]

43. Thanks this is some evidence. I wish I could find the MSGOP story and

email the authors.

You know, I think I saw this on a TV documentary too. (no idea about socks.)

[starroute]

36. Didn't the Pythagoreans avoid eating beans . . .

. . . because beans can make you fart and that was interpreted as the spirit leaving the body?

No, it's not quite the same thing, but it's part of the same cluster of beliefs.

[pacifictiger]

26. but of course, what else do you expect from the blind and deaf?

They would never have read any of the Nag Hammadi texts found in the 70's or other texts excluded from the official biblical canon mid 4th century. For those who are interested check them out.

FYI, this is from the Apocalypse of Peter:
"And they will cleave to the name of a dead man, thinking that they will become pure. But they will become greatly defiled and they will fall into a name of error, and into the hand of an evil, cunning man and a manifold dogma, and they will be ruled without law."
and
"And there shall be others of those who are outside our number who name themselves bishop and also deacons, as if they have received their authority from God. They bend themselves under the judgment of the leaders. Those people are dry canals."

[papau]

28. Where does DaVinci used the Canon that was not approved at Nicea?

The book rants a lot - a bit like DU - :-) - but I've read most of the excluded canon - the miracle of the child Jesus throwing mud into the air and it becomes a bird that flies away - etc.

I do not recall DaVinci doing much more than doing the usual "myths exist around the world and are similar" rant as the author tried to interest you in his rather light knowledge of symbols used in various regions of the world at various times. He mentions Nicea as if it was a conspiracy - which was an interesting approach since it was indeed traditions in various regions trying for approval as "Bible".

The stuff on the Egyptian cults that were popular in the "Age of Reason" and later and goddess worship that is currently new age popular as a recapture of ancient truths, none of which were need for the plot of the DaVinci book, and the few partial truths about FreeMasonary, did not appear to me to be new insight - just filler.

Indeed the response of 11 books pointing out the errors seems silly since it was as presented - a thriller, not research.

[phantom power]

44. I'd have like to have seen a

short section on what he considered to be historical and what he embellished for fictional purposes.

Most good science fiction authors are in the habit of including an appendix that discusses the boundaries between established science, the speculations of scientists, and the author's embellishments or extrapolations.

It would have been extremely helpful if the DaVinci Code had a similar section about established history, speculative history, and what was just good fiction.

That goes double, since he specifically claims that the book is based on actual research. It just begs the question of what is fact and what is fiction, especially for such a controvertial topic.

[Merlin]

31. Its premise is pap, but it DOES debunk the authenticity of the Bible.

One of the great philosophical misconceptions of most people in our times is that the Bible is "The Word of God."

That idea does more harm than perhaps any other notion. It damages liberalism and enlightened thinking beyond anything else.

At the base of this fallacy lie many of the great world problems:
Israeli occupation of Palestine
Anti-abortion
Anti-Gay
Subjugation of women
Sexual repression
Suppression of Science (a/k/a Creationism)
and on and on

DaVinci Code shows the OT Pentateuch was NOT written by Moses, and the NT was NOT written by anybody who had actually ever met Jesus.

[papau]

38. We needed DaVinci Code to know about oral history and later scribes?

The DaVinci code is a thriller - and "teaches/shows" us nothing, despite the author saying that he believes much that he has the characters saying.

[Merlin]

47. We need MANY, MANY, MANY books to teach the Bible is NOT God's Word

Any honest person who has actually read ALL of the bible will tell you there's not way it can possibly be "The Word Of God."

Yet if you polled people on the subject, the results would come up with about 2/3 or more claiming it is indeed "The Word Of God." Thus they can justify all manner of vileness and hatred because they are believed to be called for by the God of the bible.

It's about time people began to understand the bible is nothing more than folklore and tribal histories and legend-building puff pieces.

We can prove it now. It's about time people became aware of the truth.

[bobbieinok]

50. try Schofield's The Passover Plot and Those Incredible Christians

a Jewish scholar

'everyone' talking about these in the 60s - 70s

one thing I remember from the Passover Plot - there were many claiming to be the Messiah in the Jewish world at the time of Jesus

heard at the time that much of what was in these 2 books was known to scholars but few 'in the pews' had ever heard most of it

(Schonfeld??)

[Name removed]

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