Misogyny, up close and personal

[Blue_Tires]

Despite feminists' reputation, and contra my own individual reputation cultivated over five years of public opinion-making as a blogger, I am not a man-hater.

If I played by misogynists' rules, specifically the one that dictates it only takes one woman doing one mean or duplicitous or disrespectful or unlawful or otherwise bad thing to justify hatred of all women, I would have plenty of justification for hating men, if I were inclined to do that sort of thing.

Most of my threatening hate mail comes from men. The most unrelentingly trouble-making trolls at my blog, Shakesville, have always been men. I've been cat-called and cow-called from moving vehicles countless times, subjected to other forms of street harassment and sexually harassed at work, always by men. I have been sexually assaulted – if one includes rape, attempted rape, unsolicited touching of breasts, buttocks and/or genitals, nonconsensual frottage on public transportation and flashing – by dozens of people during my lifetime, some known to me, some strangers, all men.

But I don't hate men, because I play by different rules. In fact, there are men in this world whom I love quite a lot.

There are also individual men in this world I would say I probably hate, or something close – men who I hold in unfathomable contempt. But it is not because they are men.

No, I don't hate men.

It would, however, be fair to say that I don't easily trust them.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2009/aug/25/feminism-relationships-sexism-women

[ensho]

1. can agree - I've been asked many times - 'you hate men'? and I answer

I hate many men but not all men.

and I don't trust any man - been knifed in the back too many times by 'nice' men. including a husband and a father.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

2. hell. what am I that -- I don't trust many women either...?

no gender bias with me at all. People suck period. :D

[Triana]

4. same here. n/t

[unpossibles]

6. my personal motto:

I try to give everyone a chance to prove they are not an asshole. Sadly, many fail, but many do not also.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

7. yes...I always give people a chance, with the same results

:toast:

peace ~ TA

[unpossibles]

8. on the bright side, often the ones who fail manage to do so fairly spectacularly

I guess I prefer it that if someone's going to be a jerk, they're honest and up front about it so I don't have to waste much time/energy on them.

peace!

[Triana]

3. K & R - and passing/posting this on and on and on... n/t

[unpossibles]

5. Thanks for the link. I hate to say it, but this will probably produce some sort of argument

Not from me though. I agree with what she's saying, and sadly have noticed how invisible misogyny can be; how it's so pervasive in our society that people don't even notice when they or others do it, much like racism and homophobia as noted in the article. Hell, it's so pervasive that I've seen/heard women do it (see: Ann Coulter). And in a related sense, I think it's sad that the word "feminist" has been bastardized by society to be a dirty word, that it's been turned into this extremist viewpoint instead of a desire for equality.

I often try to understand people's basic motives, and part of me has to wonder if on some unconscious level, some men are actually afraid of and/or jealous of women, and thus they act out; they put women in a lower place mentally because it makes themselves feel more secure.

Ironically, I grew up as something of a "man-hater" and I am a male! I was raised by my single mother and saw very closely how men treated women differently both in personal and in professional relationships, and I did not understand what I was seeing for years.

Also, I think that homophobia is related very closely to misogyny: gay men are seen as "lower" than straight men because they are (in the minds of straight homophobes) playing the role of a woman, are submissive and inferior, thus acceptable targets. Gay women are also seen as lower and are feared because they don't need men at all in their relationships. The hatred of both is related to the distrust, fear, and hatred of women.

Does that make sense? Thanks again for the link. I hope men (and women) can read this without getting defensive; that they can work to change their behavior if they see themselves reflected in this editorial instead of just defensively lashing out at the author and pleading ignorance.

[snake in the grass]

15. It makes total sense and...

...it's been my standpoint for years. This is for me the most important reason to finally rid ourselves of the patriarchy.

signed,

a straight, white man

[juno jones]

9. As a feminist I've been accused of it, but how can I hate men?

I'm married (sort of) to one. I have sons. I work alongside them and share quite a bit with them. The men who accuse me of hating seem to be angry at the loss of automatic privilege that having visible nads and twig used to get them. They seem to be projecting their hatred of women onto me. If they hate me, I must hate them, right?

I have seen an evolution of thought in the nearly thirty years I've worked in restaurants. I received a lot of mental and sexual harassment when I first stepped behind a line. "Women shouldn't be here, they can't handle it", cucumbers of prodigious size held aloft accompanied by "Look, this should satisfy (a woman, insert name here)!". Twenty years later, the young bucks will still say stupid sexual things, but it has become far more humorous and non-threatening. Not only do they work with women, but they've had women bosses and teachers. It's never occurred to them that the line is a man's world with girls forbidden to step foot like some kind of post-adolescent treehouse. I daresay we're evolving past that.

It will take awhile yet, but I suspect misogyny will eventually fade as women become even more equal in our society. I certainly hope so.

[femrap]

10. WOW! Thanks for posting.

I just might make copies of this and hand out when needed. There was so much to take in...it was a true look at the soul.

After a male crosses that line of 'not carrying if I hurt you,' it's over. It's true, you can't look him in the eye after that. I don't want to see him. I don't want to be around him. I hope for his non-existence.

I hope this thread doesn't end up locked.

[Blue_Tires]

14. you're welcome!

[CitizenPatriot]

11. I don't hate men either

but she got so much right in this article.

Thanks for posting this.

The vitriolic attacks on women who will not just "go along", combined with the desire to leave our sisters fighting alone after they've been called any number of names (all bad) in an attempt to discredit them after they do speak up, make this issue almost unbearable to dissect and discuss freely.

I particularly liked her reference to the men who "loved her"; nothing is quite as painful as the men who love you making you feel like you are not a human being in their eyes, merely because you are female, and insisting that you abandon and betray your sisterhood in order to be accepted (all women are like X, don't you be like that because men don't like that! etc).

I don't hate men. I do hate patriarchy.

And patriarchy takes a man who won't play the game and kicks his ass, too. Alpha male bullshit --the cost of not going along with the status quo. This is why I would never vote Republican; patriarchal big daddies club of good old white boys who will do and say anything to maintain the status quo.

[billh58]

12. I prepared a

well-reasoned response to this OP, but my wife wouldn't let me post it.

[Karenina]

13. The "post comments" section has been closed

and a good number of those on the first page deleted.

[tama]

16. No, I don't hate women

It would, however, be fair to say that I don't easily trust them. :)

[comtec]

19. agree'd

[tama]

20. So, what next?

It's been found out that there is this problem of mutual lack of trust between men and women.

Can trust be built somehow? Should it?

[comtec]

21. I don't know

Women as a lot, are hurt.
It's easy to lash out at your tormentors... just as men who are hurt very badly want to lash out at women.
it's human nature to WANT to hurt the other side I think.
It's civilized, evolved behavior not to.
I think maybe men need to be overly sensitive for a time.
Beyond perhaps what i healthy in a equal partnership.
and women need to acknowledge the interest in making things better.

Do I think feminists are all misandrists? not by a long shot - but it can come off like that.

Just like I don't think most men are truly misogynistic.

I think the problem as stated... is the system that requires society to step on guys who are trying - some times succeeding - to be sensitive, understanding men, and women whoa re trying to make a living without being harassed.

it'll take alot of work and changes to the system.

[tama]

22. If we leave

the history of patriarcate - and matriarcate - and those crudges aside, at least for a moment, and look at behavioral experience, women are hormone monsters who consider it their god given right to nag and bad mouth most of the time or at least certain special times... ;) but that is not the real problem or source of mistrust, men sensible (or horny or lonely in need of SO) enough have learned to endure those moods since age old... :)

In my experience the deep source of mistrust in this day and age comes from the fact that both sexes are today at loss on how to grow our children and preserve them a world that offers a decent chance of living a good wholesome life. And in our mutual fear and worry about future generations we tend to project and blame the other one.

In old ages the social sexes and their roles were more clear cut and better defined - with huge variation from tribe to tribe, for sure. Mothers and fathers knew what they were supposed to teach their children, together and separately and as a tribe. Now there is great confusion and insecurity.

[comtec]

24. You do realize your post is horribly misogynistic right?

and you're fortunate that you were not burned alive on the altar of PC!
Not really incorrect, but... =]

That aside, I think clear gender roles is undervalued to some extent.
I don't think it's fair to prevent women from entering the work force as equals, with equal non-gender-based biases like sexual harassment, or lower pay for the same work done.

I don't think women should have any less of a chance to get squashed on the way up as men, with the possibility of becoming a CEO just as reviled as any man would be :)

But I think that we should also, as a society, NOT look down on a woman who has chosen to stay home and take care of her children - recognizing that as not only a career CHOICE but as one vital to the species! IMHO to that extent anyone who stays home should have their Social Security retirement fund credited to reflect the value of all the jobs performed - at last count it is well over 100k per year worth of talents - as well as receiving a stipend from the state for the first two children - reflective of her education level and previous salary values.

That is a low educated mother (or father) would receive less money than a better educated one. Someone who has a college education is giving up MORE by staying home to raise their children than someone who dropped out of high school.

Someone who gave up a 50k/yr job to take care of their kids full time (thus risking finances NOW on improving the future of the human race LATER) should have a higher monthly stipend than someone who left a McJob to raise kids.

yes I know it's classist. But I think by rewarding people for putting off kids until they are better educated, and have some real world skills, we are improving the species.

Mind you this would also include medical for the children - a full ride like SCHIP - as well as tri-care for the parent. Not to mention a higher income tax and elimination of the Soc Sec tax ceiling, and affordable higher education for everyone, as well as better sex education to insure that kids are NOT getting knocked up at 16, but able to prevent pregnancies and the like until they are ready - emotionally at the very least.

[Humbertink]

17. Excuse me, but.....

...who are you?

"...my own individual reputation cultivated over five years of public opinion-making as a blogger..."

:eyes:

[Humbertink]

18. Having now read the entirety, all I can say is.....

:nopity:

[Skittles]

23. you're probably a text-book example

[Yevgeni]

25. Good Lord!

If I ever go to England, I'll be wearing an armor-plated athletic cup, just in case!