We will be FORCED to buy health insurance?

[soverywendy]

Or pay a fine? OR PAY A FINE??

How is this even constitutional?
How is this even being discussed???
What country is this, anyway?

[cliffordu]

1. What happens if you don't pay social security???

I don't get what the fucking deal about this is, anyway....

[Mojambo]

7. You don't pay private for profit corporations with social security

A better comparison would be auto insurance.

[Ruby the Liberal]

13. No, it wouldn't.

I can choose not to drive. I can't choose my dna.

This has no precedent.

[soverywendy]

26. It's like being forced to buy life insurance.

[Doctor_J]

21. Auto insurance is a terrible comparison

I don't have to drive. I have to see a doctor at some point.
I can drive recklessly or defensively. I can't do much about coming down with cancer.
Getting my car fixed costs $5,000 or so. Having surgery costs $100,000 or so.

Really bad analogy.

[Ruby the Liberal]

29. Some people can go a lifetime without filing a/an auto/renters/homeowners claim

Can the same be said for Doctor visits or Prescriptions?

No.

[Doctor_J]

50. Correct

Eventually, everyone will need routine medical care (allergy treatment, eyeglasses, stitches, antibiotics for a sinus infection, ...) which is why everyone needs to be in the same insurance pool.

[Mojambo]

42. I didn't say it was a good comparison. I said it was a better comparison.

And it is a better comparison than Social Security.

[Ruby the Liberal]

55. The point is that there is no comparison for this.

Forcing the purchase of private, for-profit products and/or services stands alone.

[VPStoltz]

77. It's like being FORCED to finance ridiculous, unworkable defense systems

because someone MIGHT attack us. THAT costs far, far, far, far more then an operation but we've been paying through the ass for it since time began - well it feels like it.

[gateley]

2. Whose country do you want it to be? You have a voice, you know. nt

[truedelphi]

71. And the Obama Administration proved that we do indeed have a voice

When they made it clear that an individual only needed $ 30,000 to sit in on health care reform discussions.

[napi21]

3. Do you appreciate that you are always taken care of in the ER?

THAT'S uour Country too! There is such a thing as personal responsibility. You can't expect everyone else to take care of you.

[Laelth]

39. Just FYI

I had a client turned away from the emergency room at a major hospital here in Macon, Georgia--the hospital that is supposed to take indigent patients. This client was doing construction work and stepped on a nail. It went straight through his foot. He wrapped it up tightly in his sock and was then driven to the hospital by a co-worker. He waited over an hour for emergency room service. They demanded $400.00. He didn't have it. They turned him away and said that because his foot wasn't still bleeding, that it wasn't an emergency and that they would not treat him unless he paid cash up front.

It is entirely inaccurate to believe that any person who needs it can get emergency room treatment in this country.

dem:

-Laelth

[eridani]

67. I don't mind being taxed to pay for care. I fucking well DO mind being taxed for the profit--

--of useless shitstain sociopathic intermediaries.

[FreakinDJ]

4. Right now I'm forced to pay for the Uninsured

[Ruby the Liberal]

15. To the government for indigent care

not to for-profit private industry that pays their CEOs in the neighborhood of $20mm/year on the basis of maximizing shareholder profits by denying claims.

[FreakinDJ]

38. WRONG - 20% of your insurance premium goes for "Unreimbursed Hospital Cost"

hows that for a "Reality Check"

[Ruby the Liberal]

49. Link?

[napi21]

62. That's true! Even though I don't have a link either, I was talking to the

Dir. of Finance at a very large hospital system last night. SHE negotiates all the contracts the various ins. co's have with their system. She too said .20 of every policy premius dollar goes to pay for the uninsured.

[eridani]

68. And 30% of it goes to pay useless shitstains to deny care n/t

[VPStoltz]

78. And we are told that story about not paying for abortions because

that baby MIGHT turn out to be the one that discovers the cure for cancer! The "uninsured" aren't always going to be that way and they certainly, for the most part, don't want to be that way.

[GreenArrow]

22. So am I. So what.

We pay one way or the other. Personally, I'd rather not be forced to pay to support fucking parasitic insurance companies that offer absolutely nothing of any real value, and whose sole purpose for existence is not providing health care, but making a profit off of peoples misery.

[Laelth]

40. Did I get lost? Seriously. What site am I visiting.

If I didn't know better ...


:shrug:

:dem:

-Laelth

[FreakinDJ]

45. It is the Truth - Deal with it

If you don't like hearing the truth don't come to DU

[Laelth]

46. It is the truth. I admit that.

The rich pay for basic necessities for the less fortunate. On DU, I expect us to be OK with that. It's called "progressive taxation," and it's fair. It's just.

I can't stand that some members of DU have gone along with the right-wing meme that the uninsured are the new "welfare queens."

That doesn't sound very progressive to me, but I have been reading a lot of that lately.

:dem:

-Laelth

[FreakinDJ]

47. Insurance Co charges profit margin on top of what we pay for uninsured

So that must make them the ULTIMATE WELFARE QUEENS

But ya I see your point - I've been away all week and hadn't heard the latest RATpubliCON BS

[road2000]

65. Yes. n/t

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ruby the Liberal]

16. As a newbie

Thanks for the warm welcome.

[soverywendy]

27. That's not fair

I've got thousands of posts, really.

[glitch]

36. Nevermind, and welcome to DU! nt

[larkrake]

6. only those who can afford it. The poor will be subsidized

[PSPS]

24. No they won't

That is, their "premiums" will be subsidized by me, but instead of going into a pool to actually pay for any health care they need, it will instead just be a laundering exercise where my tax money goes through the treasury and right into the offshore bank account for the billionaire CEO. (The CEO will gladly funnel 10% back as a bribe "campaign contribution" to keep this scheme going.)

[Ruby the Liberal]

31. +1

[Th1onein]

43. WHO can "afford" $900 a month?

Fuck! That's about $11,000 a YEAR!

I'M not paying a fucking dime. They can fine me, and I won't pay the fucking fine. Fuck them.

[cabluedem]

64. Cant afford 900 month. Not paying any fines either. nt

[billh58]

83. Got a

link for the $900/month figure? Or are you listening to the Birthers, Hallers, and Baggers again? To answer your question, however, under a "progressive premium" plan, someone making $90,000 a month could afford $900 a month. I doubt seriously, however, that anyone will be "forced" to pay that amount, or anywhere close to that amount.

[izquierdista]

8. Forced to buy

would be tolerable if insurance companies were FORCED to pay for treatment.

[glowing]

9. If it is affordable and provides real subsidies and people cannot be jerked around, then

why would anyone object to having a health plan.. I'm hoping that a Public Option is provided. I wouldn't be as supportive without one.. and many congresscritters agree. Once its a viable option for people, why in the world wouldn't someone choose to get healthcare? Say, we went hog wild, dreamt big, and got a socialized system like Canada, you'd still have to pay for it thru tax subsidies based upon your income level. Why in the world if it is affordable would anyone not choose to have coverage.. and then, why would it be fair for people who did buy a plan to cover you if you get sick or injured? The burden would automatically fall back upon the people with coverage or the tax payers because someone would have to pay for the costs of the usage. Personally, I'm not so sure why everyone has their panty in a wad about allowing illegal immigrants access to buying healthcare.. who's going to eventually pay for their care when they need it? Or will we have illegals dying in the street because accessing a hospital means deportation for the entire family once you step into the hospital or are injured on the job.

BTW, do you drive? Your car has to have insurance too.. which in my opinion needs an overhaul as well, those scumbags are really reaping some money off of insuring automobiles (also, if we had universal healthcare coverage, the costs of insuring automobiles should decrease.. one of the major costs once in an accident is paying for injury care.. if that was automatically covered, the ins. would only have to worry about covering lost wages and car parts).

[graywarrior]

10. Obama has you under his spell. You must buy health insurance.

Zombies....we're all zombies under Barack Obama's rule. This is not America. Wooooooooooooooooo.

[Seldona]

60. Yikes!

I wonder how many seizures that graphic has caused? lol

Hilarious as hell though, given the context.

[obliviously]

11. This is a load of fresh runny bulshit!

[elleng]

51. Yes it is.

That is, its in baucus bill in some form, is subject to about 500 amendments, and it won't happen.

[Old and In the Way]

12. Should we pay for your health insurance?

I'm cool with paying more than my fair share, but you should be willing to pay at least less than your fair share, right?

[Lagomorph]

14. What were you expecting?

Somebody has to pay for the 47 million uninsured.

[Ruby the Liberal]

18. I have no problem with this. Raise my taxes and enact 676

This mandate for private, for-profit insurance notion is total BS.

I don't pretend to know the OP's issues, but don't discount the willingness of those who would gladly pay more to cover EVERYONE at 3% overhead as opposed to being forced to add to the bonus pool of the insurance industry.

[Turbineguy]

17. If you don't

"they" will shove a living snake up your ass and it will be counted as a pre-existing condition.

[Doctor_J]

19. Which is this, an editorial or an Article?

:eyes:

[chknltl]

20. I'm pretty sure that line 42, page 6 of the House's plan...

...states that freepers get to pay double. It has something to do with their well known generosity and love for their fellow man.

[Doctor_J]

23. and on line 46 it says

that freepers have to keep paying double, even after a death panel gives them the thumbs down.

[Chisox08]

48. I thought it tripled after the death panel gives the thumbs down

and Every time they yell socialism without knowing what it means their payments double.

[Lerkfish]

25. ah, no profile, as I suspected.

your irrational fears have been duly noted.

[soverywendy]

28. Can't you have an intelligent conversation about this?

The feds forcing people to buy health insurance, and if they don't they get fined????? Guess what, Skeezix, people don't have health insurance because they CAN'T AFFORD IT. How do they pay the fine? Who fines them, the FBI? Who freaking collects it, the Coast Guard??


Open your eyes, man!

[PSPS]

32. The next logical step

Sometimes, if you don't toe the (Obama) line around here, it's only a matter of time before they start calling you a "freeper." I've been here for almost nine years (since bush was installed) and it has happened to me.

[Ruby the Liberal]

34. I am thinking Paultard more than Freeper.

I can get behind Paultards on ending the illegal wars, but that is about it.

If they feel that mandating insurance from for-profit industry is an issue - I have their back on that too.

[chknltl]

37. Who is Skeezix?

Would it bother you to share a little if Congress passed a Bill stating that those who proved that they could not pay even a little to the kitty would still be allowed to participate and do so exempt from fees or fines???

[Lerkfish]

56. an intelligent conversation about irrational fears over a bill that won't survive

in its present state?

how would that conversation be intelligent?

[billh58]

82. I suggest that

you actually read the various proposals, and NOT just listen to the RW Town Hall talking points (aka, "lies"). Although the Baucus Bill has very few supporters, it is loosely based on a law that has already gone into effect in Massachusetts:

http://www.startribune.com/politics/national/congress/57990837.html?page=2&c=y and,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massachusetts_health_care_reform

In Massachusetts, only those who can afford to pay for insurance (annual income of at least 3X the poverty level) are "required" to pay premiums, and in return receive tax credits to offset the cost. People making less than 3X the poverty level basically receive free health care. People in higher income brackets pay progressively higher premiums, and receive fewer tax breaks.

As no particular proposed bill has come to a vote, or even passed committee, it is a little too early to be running around in circles and screaming that the "sky is falling." Those who claim that mandating premiums for universal health care is "taxation without representation," are conveniently forgetting about the 70% of us whose wishes ARE being represented.

Now I have to run, as I'm late for a meeting with my local death-panel, which has some questions about why I'm still alive at age 68, and how I managed to obtain health care coverage through Medicare with the pre-existing condition of "senioritis." Later on I'll be attending a public hearing about reducing our taxes by eliminating the local socialistic, and publicly-funded, fire, police, education, employment, and labor departments, and what can be done about abolishing Social(ist) Security at the Federal level.

So much dangerous socialist-inspired "Liberalism" to undo, and so little time. Sigh...

[PSPS]

30. Sadly, it looks that way.

These discussions always quickly degenerate into such nonsense as equating it with auto insurance or "those who can't afford will get a subsidy."

The gripe even the most ardent Obama sycophant should be able to wrap their mind around is that it's all about where the money people are forced to pay actually goes. Instead of going where it should -- toward paying for actual health care for those who need it -- it will be going to the private health insurance racket with its billion-dollar-a-year CEO's and huge staffs paid on the basis of how many claims they can weasel out of.

If these forced payments were to a non-profit equivalent, this wouldn't be an issue. But with the "public option" now gone or effectively neutered with a meaningless substitute such as an "exchange" or "co-op," we've got a serious problem. This amounts to the government wielding its power to force people to pay into a criminal enterprise.


(HA! I actually typed 'hugh' for 'huge'!)

[Hugin]

41. The Overseers would lose their whips under Universal Healthcare.

Without the threat of 'losing the illusion of nominal health insurance' over the working classes' heads... They'd leave their subsistence level jobs in droves.

Yep, TPTB have got to keep that cudgel!

And in their crazed 'Free Market' thinking... Having mandatory health insurance allows them to keep labor a commodity and reduce people's ability to be socially mobile. Horrors! To think the unwashed masses could up and leave! Having a fine which kicks in after only one day of lost health coverage will put a damper on this scenario.

It's a sick world view... If you ask me.

Status QUO... Accomplished!

[OwnedByFerrets]

63. Great response.

[Dogmudgeon]

33. Maybe. Maybe not.

Nothing has been signed into law yet.

However, people are acting as if this is all a matter of settled law. It isn't.

NOW is the time to get involved.

--d!

[stray cat]

35. Freedom is being free not to participate in our medical system - The No Treatment Choice!

Maybe they will make exceptions if you sign an order refusing medical care. Kind of like a do not resuscitate order but no medical interventional at all instead. Freedom is being free not to participate in our medical system

[clarence swinney]

54. You are Free to

not work and pay SS -Medicare Taxes for the elderly

Free to not support our Imperialistic Military

Free to stay off my darn Interstate Highway

Free to stop eating my Inspected Food. Grow yo own.

Free to stop breathing my Clean air.

Free to stop drinking my city water. Dig yo own.

Free to stop using my sewer system

Did yo hole and put on outhouse top

Free to stay out of my public schools

Free to shoot yourself.Not me.

[billh58]

84. It always

amazes me that some people view personal freedoms, and the collective and mutual welfare of civilization as two mutually exclusive societal goals.

Than again, I am a proud American, Liberal, Democrat.

[Hugin]

44. I'm wondering what provisions are being made for those orthodox religions which prohibit buying...

insurance.

They exist, y'know.

I expect to see one of them run this muddled baby through the SCOTUS PDQ after it passes. Of course, they'll win... Adding even more cost to this addled law.

[comtec]

52. It's a take on how it's done here in holland... only badly

Here you MUST have insurance.
If you are employed your employed MUST pay this - mine pays me 100e, which goes to my insurance bill.

however...
the insurance industry is TOLD what they MAY charge. no ifs, ands, or buts.

IF you are under employed or unemployed, the stay PAYS this FOR you...mind you it'll be the lowest which is I think 75e the TOP rate is around 150e I believe.

the main difference is how often do you go to the doctor. My wife has diabetes, so she pays top tier of 150 a month.

THIS ... ABORTION, of a bill (ironic) is total crap.
there is NO real over sight, or regulation.

The ONLY reason the mandated insurance thing here works is because the government determines how much profit they are ALLOWED to make, which reflects their costs. And they are NOT ALLOWED to deny anyone.

Mind you, the doctors here suck. and both my wife and I are a bit timid to talk to them about regular complaints as they tend to say "it's all in your head" but that aside, the insurance company it self has never denied a claim.

You can even get a small number of massages and days at the sauna (day-spa) paid for by insurance - because relaxation is important to good health as well.

[clarence swinney]

53. SINGLE PAYER

Why do we continue to fool ourselves?

Medicare for Elderly.

Medicare for 100%.

Pay via Taxes.

Mean Test Rich.

Means Test Medicaid but not Rich for Social Security and Medicare.

Shock America.

List who gets SS & Medicare by Wealth and Income.

Take them off.

Tax them Fair % of Income.

Largest Income in one year in History.

Hedge Fund Manager 2000 Million.

Taxed at 15% Rate

Warren Buffett taxed at 15% Rate.

Stop the Nonsense-

NATIONAL INCOME DISTRIBUTION-

1980-top 10% got 15% of Total Income
2007--got 50%

1980-2007--top 5% got 63% of Total Income
Growth--90% got 9%

1993-2007
1% got 50% more Individual Income Growth than bottom 65%

WEALTH IS SAME STORY

In 2007, 1% owned 23.4% and 10% owned 71% of Total Individual Wealth

In 2008, top 10% owned 93% of Total non-home Wealth

Primary Wealth for 90% in homes only.

WALL STREET OWNS AMERICA.

Bail Out--Paulson-Greenspan-Geither etc all out of Goldman Saks---Pals help Pals

Our Federal Finances are controlled by ex-Wall Streeters.

[e-mail]

[Martin Eden]

69. It is so unfortunate ...

... that the entire national debate on health insurance reform started with the goal posts moved so far to the right that SINGLE PAYER -- the system that makes the most sense and is used by most advanced countries -- was never seriously considered.

The wingnut SHOUT-THE-LOUDEST crowd spurred on and financed by the health insurance profiteers have essentially dictated public perception on health care. When a watered-down public option is met with frenzied protests and cries of Socialism! (dutifully amplified by the corporate media) it makes true reform and the SINGLE PAYER option look like Marxist totalitarianism.

Our long national nightmare was NOT over when GW Bush left the White House.

Oh, sanity ... wherefore art thou?

[paparush]

57. Ask the good folk in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. They have this very system.

[JohnWxy]

58. NOT to worry. Health care reform probably won't get passed and you can go "naked" - without health

insurance. Then just go to a hospital emergency room when you need medical care and as an uninsured person you will still be taken care of. We all pay for that. The federal government and state governments pick up most of the cost of caring for the uninsured. But covering the uninsured does increase the premiums of everyone who does have health insurance too about $1,000 a year.

YOu probably already have coverage through your employer though, right? But guess what. Because health insurance costs are going up twice as fast as inflation, more and more employers are dropping it. So maybe you feel lucky and you won't lose your group coverage. But, because premiums are going up so fast (at least twice as fast as wages) you may not be able to afford it! so you'll get chance to go 'naked' again. Oh boy!

but, maybe we will just get the government entirely out of health care. No coverage of the uninsured. so if you get sick there won't be any coverage so they will turn you away at the emergency room. Won't that be fun?

OF course, you will be lucky. You won't get sick. EVER! Right? LOL.

[JohnWxy]

59. cost of group coverage almost doubled from 2000 to 2008.

http://www.kff.org/uninsured/upload/7451-04.pdf#page=20

be a little patient it's a 2.5 meg down-load.

[Jack Rabbit]

61. That's in the Baucus bill

If we're going to have individual mandates, we damned better have a public option for those who can't afford health insurance.

Frankly, we just better have a public option. We don't need individual mandates.

[road2000]

66. Not sure what Web site I'm on any more. n/t

[Myrina]

70. Why are the insurance companies being kept in the equation by the WH?

WHY?
WHY?
WHY?

Seriously, WHY?

What 'valuable service' do they provide that makes them indispensible now, when 30 years ago when there was basically NO 'health insurance industry (sic)' and NO HMO/PPO's etc ... people got treated and cared for as they needed, and weren't driven into the poor house?

We need to change that paradigm and remove insurance companies as we know them from the picture.

[truedelphi]

72. Oh but they aren't. Any one of us could have sat in on

WH discussions about health care reform. With such a seat costing only $ 30,000, I think for most Americans, they were too busy having fun vacations to bother with this!

[FiveGoodMen]

73. "What 'valuable service' do they provide"

They give money to politicians.

Seriously. That's what they provide. That's why they're being protected.

Government of the money, by the money, for the money.

In other words: Everyone in Congress and the White House who is protecting the insurance companies is serving the money and screwing the people.

There ought to be a word for that...

[Capt13]

74. Why doesn't anyone get

The facts.

1) We (the taxpayers and the insured) are already paying for the uninsured and illegals, at higher rates do to the fact they are forced to go to an emergency room for treatment.

2) Those of us fortunate enough to get a health insurance plan are paying around $12,000.00 / year or more .

3) If your employer is contributing to your insurance plan it is still YOUR MONEY in the form of deferred wages.

4) Many people are forced to make career choices based on availability and eligibility of insurance, especially anyone who may have even a minor pre-existing condition.

5) Medical providers liability and malpractice INSURANCE (there's that word again) premiums are driving health costs up
due to no settlement caps.

6) For profit Health Care Insurers provide NO value to health care. They're just bankers holding the money.

7) For profit Health Care Insurers profit from DENIAL of Health care.


Given These fact, I can think of only 2 words

SINGLE PAYER

[IndianaGreen]

75. The working class will revolt against mandates, and will punish Democrats at the polls

Only a viable public option, like giving people the option to go under Medicare before they are 65, can prevent an electoral catastrophe next year.

The Blue Dogs will destroy the Democratic coalition that won last year's elections.

[amandabeech]

85. The mandate will be death to the Democrats if passed.

Subsidies for those making up to 3X or so of the poverty line won't cut it because the poverty line is so low and premiums will be very high, no matter what, particularly for older people like me (54) who would pay 5X what younger people pay in the Baucus bill.

Making $60,000 and being forced to pay $12,000 a year for health insurance isn't going to go down well.

[VPStoltz]

76. The same one the FORCES you to buy insurance for your car.

[Lindsey]

79. It blows my mind that anyone doesn't support health care...

WTF? We are human beings and we get sick and have accidents. I broke my wrist 5 weeks ago - what would I have done without coverage? I'm in a cast now and what would I have done???????????? I notice you only have 26 posts. Go back to freeper land where you belong. I would bet my next paycheck that you have insurance. My understanding is that about 70% of people who file bankruptcy do so because they don't have Medical Insurance. It's so evil to me that anyone would say "I don't care that people are in pain". And the ironic thing is that a a lot of these people are Christians. Would God and Jesus want people to suffer?????????????? You're off in the head. I'm having this reaction because I would be in horrible pain if I wasn't covered because of my wrist. My belief is that the cost of health care is going to be very reasonable if we go that route. You're a sick in the head person and I pity you.

[tomm2thumbs]

80. someone will come up with a scam to 'sell' fake insurance so you don't have to be fined - just watch

this country was built on the scam - and I suppose it would be almost un-American to think someone isn't going to scam this process as well. A little piece of paper that says 'oh yea, they're insured' and then everyone is happy. Isn't that swell.

[Gravel Democrat]

81. Here's why that might be a little tougher than you think

The Baucus plan turns the administration of the "health insurance reform" over to the IRS.

You will have to file "*acceptable* proof of insurance" with your 1040.

If the IRS finds your "proof" unacceptable you get the fine. Which doesn't count towards your insurance.

HR3200: It’s Division A, Title IV on pages 167-215 called Amendments to IRS Code of 1986

You can see for yourself here:

http://www.examiner.com/x-12837-US-Headlines-Examiner~y2009m8d10-Health-care-bill-HR-3200-read-it-online-now

from no mandates to must file proof with your 1040.

Speechless.