Cenk Uygur: Why I Changed My Mind On Afghanistan

[spiritual_gunfighter]

Until about a month ago, I agreed with Barack Obama's strategy in Afghanistan. I thought we should have concentrated on Afghanistan from the beginning. We should have brought in so many more troops. We owed it to the Afghan people to do the best we could for them since we happened to invade their country. I think the Taliban is the scourge of the earth, and the idea that they might take over after we leave is abhorrent to me. We had to stay and get it right.

So, what happened?

The Afghan elections.

Over one million votes were fraudulent. 1.3 million fake votes were thrown out to be exact. That's out of only five million votes. That's ridiculous. Obviously the current government of Afghanistan is a sham. The key to "winning" in Afghanistan is to convince the Afghani people to work with us. They have to side with us over the Taliban. If they don't, we're not helping them, we're fighting them. And that's just about where we are now.

What's the long term strategy? Kill all the Taliban? Do we even know who is Taliban and who is not? Matthew Hoh, the US diplomat who resigned his post in protest of the war, points out that "valleyism" reigns supreme in Afghanistan. That means if you come into my valley, I will fight you. They don't care if you're Russian or British or Persian or American or even an Afghan from the central government. You step into their valley, and they will fight you to the bitter end. And there is no end. They're fighting us because we're fighting them.




http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cenk-uygur/why-i-changed-my-mind-on_b_374937.html

[TwilightGardener]

1. I applaud anyone who admits he changed his mind. Nothing wrong with it.

Of course, this guy HAS to because there's a public record of his past position.

[ihavenobias]

2. Here's a link to the Matthew Hoh interview on Afghanistan that Cenk references

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCbNTfZLOps

It's a hyperlink in the original blog at Huffingon Post so you can always just use the main link in the OP (there are other links in the HuffPo piece as well).

[Buzz Clik]

3. Meh. Cenk has dancing for the spotlight. More of the same.

[sudopod]

4. Unlike everyone else with a website. :p nt

[jgraz]

9. Meh. Someone threatened Buzz Clik's presidential binky.

Don't worry, you have another three years to cling to your hero.

[CherylK]

5. Meh. Ignore these haters Cenk!!!

:yourock:

[sudopod]

6. I'm kind of in the same boat.

I don't see how this ends well unless all affected parties can get together, somehow kill the Afghan "government" and start over, and it doesn't look like that's in the cards.

What they have now in Karzai's gang is so obviously fraudulent that it will never command the respect or loyalty of anyone, no matter how much blood it's watered with.

[immoderate]

8. Cenk's point is that they don't want a government.

You could offer them Lincoln, Jefferson, and JFK, and they won't want it.

They are, to be politically correct, mountain Wilhelms, and we are revenuers.

--imm

[sudopod]

10. Libertarians. :D

We could send Ron Paul to fix it!

[ihavenobias]

11. Good point.

;)

[pleah]

7. K&R Good for you Cenk. n/t

[democracy1st]

12. K & R

[Enthusiast]

13. I completely agree.

If the Bush Administration would not have abandoned Afghanistan to start an adventure in Iraq there might have been hope in correcting these fundamental problems. It is now too late and this will shortly be made clear to everyone.

[TheCentepedeShoes]

15. BINGO n/t

[ihavenobias]

14. Kick n/t

[20score]

16. K&R

[CherylK]

17. Bump!!!

:kick:

[Turborama]

18. This is where Cenk & I go our seperate ways.

"The Afghans don't view us as their saviors. They view us as the latest intruder in their valley."

Is Cenk basing this on something some guy who has been in Afghanistan for 5 months has said?

Since the invasion we (America & NATO) have been seen not so much as an occupying force but more as an entity that offers a window of opportunity for them to redevelop after their country was smashed into pieces by the war with Russia and the civil war & rule of the Taliban that followed their exit. Essentially, from what I've heard since just after the invasion and recently, there has been and still is a lot of support in Afghanistan for our forces being there to help provide security and assist in redevelopment. What actually worries Afghan's most is if we leave them in a less secure condition by evacuating the country too early.

As Christian Amanpour said recently...

However, for the eight long years America and NATO countries have been at war in Afghanistan, this war, uniquely in modern history, is still supported by all the world's major powers, the neighbors of Afghanistan, and mostly by the people of Afghanistan, who dread both insecurity and a return to the brutal horrors of the Taliban."

=snip=

Many of the soldiers and officers I speak to in Afghanistan say the best way to beat back the threat of Taliban insurgents is with boots on the ground and additional military resources, as well as a proper development assistance for the Afghan civilians. The Afghan people need protecting and enabling.

I have been reporting from Afghanistan since 1996 and the one thing I've noticed over the years is that every Afghan asks foremost for security. Then next on the list is development to help them earn a decent living and raise their families. They also want a decent government. They know this will take years of patience and effort. They know it will be a hard slog. After all, they have been at war for 30 years now, during which the traditional, honor-bound society they had for decades has all but vanished.

Though it is true that fierce tribal traditions mean some Afghans distrust even the tribe next door, not to mention foreign troops, over and again, Afghan men, women and children have told me they do not see the U.S. and NATO forces as occupiers, rather as armies from countries who came to help them ... but who have fallen short of their promises.

More: http://e.a.cnn.net/2009/OPINION/10/29/amanpour.afghanistan.pakistan/index.html

There's also these articles which give voice to how Afghans feel about what's going on in their country:

AFGHANISTAN: WOMEN STRIVE TO MAKE VOICES HEARD IN STRATEGIC DEBATE
Aunohita Mojumdar 10/07/09

At an October 2-3 meeting in Kabul organized by an Indian think-tank, the Delhi Policy Group, female Afghan attendees spoke out forcefully for a continued, robust foreign presence in the country. Some endorsed the idea of a sizable troop increase.

"We are suffering from terrorism," said MP Shinkai Karokhail. "We cannot say that troops should be withdrawn. ? The international troop presence is a guarantee of my safety."

Afghan women were particularly critical of a policy option advanced by US Vice President Joseph Biden to reduce the number of American troops in Afghanistan and redirect the mission to the destruction of al Qaeda networks.

"Demilitarization is not practical in the current situation," well-known activist Suraya Parlika said, pointing to the deteriorating security situation. "Look at what is happening in Helmand and Kandahar. Violence is now spreading to northern Afghanistan. At this time we cannot think of demilitarization. We have to first create conditions that pave the way for demilitarization."

More: http://www.eurasianet.org/departments/insightb/articles/eav100709.shtml

(These same concerns were also discussed http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8689609&mesg_id=8689609">here)

Listen to the Afghan People
By KARL F. INDERFURTH and THEODORE L. ELIOT Jr.
Published: November 12, 2009

NYT

A recent survey directed by The Asia Foundation (and available at http://www.asiafoundation.org/country/afghanistan/2009-poll.php">asiafoundation.org) is a snapshot of public opinion in Afghanistan. It shows a nation in conflict — and conflicted — about the direction it is heading.

Trained Afghan pollsters interviewed 6,400 Afghans, almost equally divided between male and female, in all 34 of the country’s provinces, just before the Aug. 20 presidential election. It is the fifth public opinion poll conducted by the foundation since 2004 and therefore provides a valuable perspective on the trends in the national mood of Afghans over time.

The survey indicates that, in many parts of the country, there is a perception of some improvement. There is a small increase over the 2008 survey (from 38 to 42 percent) in the number of Afghans who think their country is moving in the right direction and a small decrease (from 32 to 29 percent) in those who think it is moving in the wrong direction.

The principal reason for this optimism appears to be a growing sense that security is getting better (up from 31 percent in 2006 to 44 percent in 2009). Other reasons include reconstruction and rebuilding and the opening of schools for girls. Understandably, these positive features are not present in the eastern and southern areas along the Pakistan border where the Taliban insurgency is the most pervasive.

More: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/13/opinion/13iht-edinderfurth.html

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x405090">This interview Amanpour had recently with Afghanistan' former Finance Minister is very enlightening, too.

[MedfordTim]

20. Everyone has to walk their own path, but...

...we'll have to wait and see if an additional 30-40,000 changes that perception of being "occupied."

As stated in one of your snippets, Afghanistan has been in turmoil for (at least) the last 30 years. How long do you propose United States forces stay there? 'Cause NATO has been looking for a way out for about 5 years - they were more than happy to hand the reins back over to this debacle. So, propose a number - 10, 20, 30 years? More?

Surveys are wonderful things - according to them, Barack Obama will never be elected President...oh. WAIT! Imagine yourself a farmer who is caught between the West by day and the Taliban by night. One day someone approaches you as you tend your poppies and they start asking questions about how secure you feel. Are you going to be honest and tell them you NEVER feel secure or are you going to try and give them the answer they want to hear? These numbers are "feel good" and if they make you feel better about the fact that we send drones in to drop bombs on people - oops! Sorry about that, innocent bystanders! We'll try to aim better next time! - then I'm happy for you. I wish I could so easily ignore what is happening, AGAIN, in our name. Before we invaded, the way Afghanistan is run and the government in power would have assured them a place at the top of our "Drug War" wanted list - yet, here we are supporting and enabling this corrupt regime. Karzai and his brother feel pretty damn secure, too. They have the entire American military as their backup. Meanwhile, the rape numbers continue to climb and the schools are blown up as fast as they are erected. Yes, the cost of freedom from an oppressive religion based government is harsh, especially on the most innocent.

"...Understandably, these positive features are not present in the eastern and southern areas along the Pakistan border..."

Really? Where the heaviest fighting is, the people don't feel secure, but the people who live on the other side of the country where there is very little fighting and the people in Kabul where there is a soldier for every citizen are snug as little bugs in rugs. Huh. Who could have guessed?

There is NO military solution. Let me repeat that, there is NO fucking military solution. Want to win the hearts and minds? Fill the bombs with food and things people can use instead of explosives. Use the money we are wasting on things that go boom and use it the way the people who live there want us to. Water, electricity, indoor plumbing, that sort of thing. That is something the Taliban CANNOT do.

One question I would have liked to see asked in that survey is: why have troop deployments always seemed to be concentrated along the proposed oil pipeline route? Strange coincidence that the fighting has always been heaviest there, huh?

If Obama wanted to send in 30,000 people who could actually help Afghanistan regain it's footing, I wouldn't mind. SeaBees, teachers, agri-specialists, diplomats to work out areas of dispute - That is what the country is in desperate need of - not more men with guns.

I'm glad that Cenk has finally come around. Took him long enough to see the folly. I've been trying to tell him for close to 6 years, now....

[Turborama]

21. Re: water, electricity, schools, agri specialists and diplomats

Since we kicked the Taliban out of power (something a vast majority of Afghans were and still are grateful for, I might add) http://www.sida.se/English/Countries-and-regions/Asia/Afghanistan/Programmes-and-Projects/More-children-in-school-in-Afghanistan/">the amount of kids going to school has increased from <1,000,000 to roughly 6,000,000 and 1,500,000 southern Afghans have been provided with much needed electricity and irrigation by http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5777799&mesg_id=5781231">repairing and protecting a long dormant massive dam.

And something the administration has just put up on it's website:

* A continuing significant increase in civilian experts will accompany a sizable infusion of additional civilian assistance. They will partner with Afghans over the long term to enhance the capacity of national and sub-national government institutions and to help rehabilitate Afghanistan’s key economic sectors so that Afghans can defeat the insurgents who promise only more violence.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/way-forward-afghanistan

I have been watching for these sorts of developments for the past 8 years and it looks like there's going to be an increase of attention regarding helping Afghanistan get back up on its feet, finally.

From February this year...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3744341&mesg_id=3744441">President Obama: "We're going to have to use development", and here's why we need troops for that

The main problem Obama has with the conflict in Afghanistan is that not enough Americans know about the positive things that have been going on there and he's not doing himself or our armed services any favors by failing to highlight them. All this "get out now, who cares about the consequences" is reminiscent of when we helped the Mujahideen kick out the Russians and look what happened 12 years later.

I just watched Charlie Wilson's War again and the moment at the end when he's trying to get $1million for schools just after the Russians had left and says “We always leave. And the ball keeps bouncing" was very pertinent to this whole idea of "pull out now". It is a lesson from history that we should heed.

[ShamelessHussy]

22. you cite many official sources who are paid to present things in a positive light

i myself am skeptical, as i do not believe a nation building exercise on the tip of a spear has a chance to succeed in a place that has never known such a thing, though they certainly do know a lot about war.

and I have read many sources who claim that the afghans no longer support our war in their country, if they ever did.

think about it this way... would you support a war of 'liberation' on our country by a foreign invader to free us from our own talibornagain?

then why would you ever expect them, who have a looong history of resistance to foreign invaders, to ever stop fighting?

[Turborama]

25. So, everything in Afghanistan is negative no matter what anyone says to you that proves the contrary

Personally I'm a cup half full kind of guy.

Anyway, instead of a broad brush accusation demeaning the sources I used as biased propaganda, why not actually point them out and refute them one by one and show me your "many sources" in return?

I could just as easily have said, Matthew Ho is simply a media whore who peed his pants in Afghanistan, cowardly resigned and is now making shit up based on some stuff he read in books and striving for name recognition across the media in advance of a book he'll be releasing in the not too distant future. Hell, he's probably in Hollywood right now trying to get a movie made with Elijah Wood playing the leading role. But I didn't.

(edited to fix typo)

[ShamelessHussy]

27. no one said that, but i noticed that is a common silly refrain...

i don't have the time nor the inclination to 'debate' a snide and snarky fellow such as yourself on the well know, terminal, and tragic issues of this conflict.

good night

[Turborama]

28. What? You mean you have nothing to back up your assertions that I was using propaganda as sources

other than ad homs insulting my personality?

Oh well, never mind.

Sleep well.

[MedfordTim]

24. To which, I can only repeat...

If Obama wanted to send in 30,000 people who could actually help Afghanistan regain it's footing, I wouldn't mind. SeaBees, teachers, agri-specialists, diplomats to work out areas of dispute - That is what the country is in desperate need of - not more men with guns.

[Turborama]

26. The problem in Afghanistan is security

Redevelopment using "SeaBees, teachers, agri-specialists, diplomats to work out areas of dispute" can't happen while the country has a resurgent Taliban trying to take over the country again. It really is as simple as that.

[MedfordTim]

29. "resurgent Taliban"

resurgent Taliban 2005
resurgent Taliban 2006
resurgent Taliban 2007
resurgent Taliban 2008
resurgent Taliban 2009

Wolf! Wolf!

Why must we take this painful road?

Why must this Nation hazard its ease, and its interest, and its power for the sake of a people so far away?

We fight because we must fight if we are to live in a world where every country can shape its own destiny. And only in such a world will our own freedom be finally secure.

This kind of world will never be built by bombs or bullets. Yet the infirmities of man are such that force must often precede reason, and the waste of war, the works of peace.

We wish that this were not so. But we must deal with the world as it is, if it is ever to be as we wish.

A different President, same speech.

I am committed to strengthening our relationship with the democratic nations in this hemisphere. I will continue to seek solutions to the problems of this region through dialog and multilateral diplomacy. I took this action only after reaching the conclusion that every other avenue was closed and the lives of American citizens were in grave danger. I hope that the people of Panama will put this dark chapter of dictatorship behind them and move forward together as citizens of a democratic Panama with this government that they themselves have elected.

The United States is eager to work with the Panamanian people in partnership and friendship to rebuild their economy. The Panamanian people want democracy, peace, and the chance for a better life in dignity and freedom. The people of the United States seek only to support them in pursuit of these noble goals. Thank you very much.

Yet another President justifying why it was necessary to put American troops in danger in the name of "freedom," collatoral damage be damned.

Since then, we've made progress on some important objectives. High-ranking al Qaeda and Taliban leaders have been killed, and we've stepped up the pressure on al Qaeda worldwide. In Pakistan, that nation's army has gone on its largest offensive in years. In Afghanistan, we and our allies prevented the Taliban from stopping a presidential election, and -- although it was marred by fraud -- that election produced a government that is consistent with Afghanistan's laws and constitution.

Yet huge challenges remain. Afghanistan is not lost, but for several years it has moved backwards. There's no imminent threat of the government being overthrown, but the Taliban has gained momentum. Al Qaeda has not reemerged in Afghanistan in the same numbers as before 9/11, but they retain their safe havens along the border. And our forces lack the full support they need to effectively train and partner with Afghan security forces and better secure the population. Our new commander in Afghanistan -- General McChrystal -- has reported that the security situation is more serious than he anticipated. In short: The status quo is not sustainable...

So, no, I do not make this decision lightly. I make this decision because I am convinced that our security is at stake in Afghanistan and Pakistan. This is the epicenter of violent extremism practiced by al Qaeda. It is from here that we were attacked on 9/11, and it is from here that new attacks are being plotted as I speak. This is no idle danger; no hypothetical threat. In the last few months alone, we have apprehended extremists within our borders who were sent here from the border region of Afghanistan and Pakistan to commit new acts of terror. And this danger will only grow if the region slides backwards, and al Qaeda can operate with impunity. We must keep the pressure on al Qaeda, and to do that, we must increase the stability and capacity of our partners in the region.

Is that an echo I hear?

Wolf! Wolf!

[Turborama]

30. Yes, the Taliban have been resurgent since 2005 and Bush did NOTHING to suppress them

I repeat, NOTHING. And it seems like no-one has been paying attention until now.

I suggest you read this to educate yourself about what could have been done to avoid this shitstorm President Obama has been handed over to deal with.

http://www.nsnetwork.org/node/828">AFGHANISTAN RECONSTRUCTION: THE MISSING LINK

[MedfordTim]

31. I think you just made my point...thank you

You see, war is not the answer, for only love can conquer hate...

Marvin's words still ring true.

[JohnWxy]

19. Karzai's Bush "victory" is real problem for a lot of people. What concerns me though is

right next door is Pakistan. If we pull out of Afghanistan then the Taliban could withdraw to Afghanistan whenever they felt like it in their fight with Pakistani military. I do think the Pakistanis want to be rid of Taliban now. They've seen what they can do in their own country. If Taliban got upper hand in Pakistan - that would be a real cause for concern (nukes).

[ShamelessHussy]

23. india can't even beat pakistan in Kashmir, why would you think a group as WEAK as the taliban could?

it doesn't make any sense, when you stop and think about it.

[Mrburra]

32. Corrupt

Helping a corrupt government like the one currently in place
in Afghanistan baffles me. We are going to train this men to
fight like us, so when the Taliban gains power again( which
they will as history has shown us) The same men will fight
against us in the future with our tactics. The question still
remains what are we going to do with this unfinished and
unbeatable war...