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Guardian UK-Are we better off without religion?

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go west young man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-08-09 10:47 PM
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Guardian UK-Are we better off without religion?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2009/dec/08/religion-society-gregory-paul

Popular religious belief is caused by dysfunctional social conditions. This is the conclusion of the latest sociological research (pdf) conducted by Gregory Paul. Far from religion benefiting societies, as the "moral-creator socioeconomic hypothesis" would have it, popular religion is a psychological mechanism for coping with high levels of stress and anxiety – or so he suggests.

In this latest research Paul measures "popular religiosity" for developed nations, and then compares it against the "successful societies scale" (SSS) which includes such things such as homicides, the proportion of people incarcerated, infant mortality, sexually transmitted diseases, teenage births and abortions, corruption, income inequality, and many others. In other words it is a way of summing up a society's health. The outlier again and again is the US with a stunning catalogue of failures. On almost every measure the US comes out worse than any other 1st world developed nation, and it is also the most religious.




I live in South Georgia where they vote in the church so I see this religious madness pretty much on a daily basis down here. They are the most hypocritical people I have ever met.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-08-09 10:51 PM
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1. WAY better off
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Kerrytravelers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-08-09 10:52 PM
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2. Is this a trick question?
:hide:
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Lone_Star_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-08-09 10:57 PM
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3. Yes, we are. However, you can't blame religion for entirely for our being the worst
Under-education has a great deal to do with it. If our population weren't so undereducated they wouldn't be so easy to manipulate with religion.

NCLB+Religion+GOP=Social/political disaster in the United States.
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Alcibiades Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-08-09 11:03 PM
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4. It's not simply that Americans are religious because of stress
I need to read the article cited, but it's ingrained in our culture. For generations, all the zealots and heretics left Europe for the US, leaving us with higher levels of religiosity, especially freaky religiosity, and leaving Europe more secular.

Lots of polling places here in Durham are in Churches, BTW, but we went 75% for Obama.
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Raster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-08-09 11:15 PM
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5. Hell yes!

"...we need not necessarily agree with Paul that "it is probably not possible for a socially healthy nation to be highly religious" but he has certainly shown that the healthiest nations are also the least religious."

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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-08-09 11:35 PM
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6. I don't know about WE, but *I* am better off WITH religion.
I'm much happier and more fulfilled than when I was agnostic.

Your mileage will most likely vary.
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tiny elvis Donating Member (619 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-08-09 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. so was torquemada
the study had nothing to do with witnessing
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-09-09 12:34 AM
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8. "Evolutionary Psychology" is Todd Shackelford's journal. If one goes to his webpage,
one finds a banner for Richard Dawkins: http://www.toddkshackelford.com/

Since Dawkins has in recent years made himself a new career by proclaiming repeatedly that religion is a major source of the world's ills, the Dawkins banner on Shackelford's webpage might say worlds about Shackelford's POV and his reasons for publishing Gregory Paul's paper

Shackelford's webpage also contains a definition of "evolutionary psychology." But Gregory Paul's paper (published in Shackelford's journal "Evolutionary Psychology") seems to have curiously little to do with either evolution, psychology, or "evolutionary psychology" as defined on Shackelford's webpage: it is an attempt to draw causal conclusions from supposed correlations between "popular religion" and socioeconomic conditions. No evolutionary ideas appear in the paper; the discussion involves gross cross-cultural comparisons, without reference to any detailed psycholoogical ideas. The notion "popular religion," as used in the paper, to judge by the charts, is essentially coincident with "creationist" -- which the charts oppose to "pro-evolutionist." The problem of defining "religion," of course, is well-known (and unsolved), so one might doubt whether the author's creationist-evolutionist proxy provides a useful assessment of what constitutes "religiosity" in America:

http://pewforum.org.nyud.net:8090/newassets/images/graphics/evolution/evolution.gif
Religious Differences on the Question of Evolution
http://pewforum.org/docs/?DocID=392

The graphic shows, for example, a majority of Catholics accept evolution, and that Catholics are more likely than Americans-at-large to accept evolution

The failure to consider (and possibly eliminate) alternative explanations of the low socioeconomic scores (given by the author to American society) is a major weakness of the paper. There is, for example, no comparison of the educational or health care systems in the various countries; nor is there any examination of the role played by media in promoting various ideas in the different cultures. A natural conclusion might be that this shoddy piece of work is mere axe-grinding and is published simply because it coincides with the editor's social prejudices

"Evolutionary psychology" seems an interesting and potentially fruitful field of study -- and one should like to see it explored with (say) the detailed dedication that Piaget showed when investigating the psychological development of children by studying the ability to understand specific ideas. The problem, with grandiose notions such as "religiosity," is that the notions are too ill-defined and culture-bound to be useful. It is also important to recognize the possibility that particular ideas may not represent what we naively think they represent: beliefs in instrumental "magic," for example, are beliefs that the world can be manipulated if one simply does the right thing, and exactly the same idea that the world can be manipulated if one simply does the right thing underlies all modern science; there may thus be a considerable evolutionary advantage to believing the world can be manipulated if one simply does the right thing, and selective pressure for this belief might occur because cultures transmit, not only strange notions, but substantial amounts of useful information also

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