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E.J. Dionne: Making Gun Safety (Politically) Safe

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marmar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 07:52 AM
Original message
E.J. Dionne: Making Gun Safety (Politically) Safe
from Truthdig:



Making Gun Safety (Politically) Safe
Posted on Dec 9, 2009

By E.J. Dionne


When it comes to passing sensible gun laws, Congress typically offers Profiles in Cowardice.

The National Rifle Association wields power that would make an Afghan warlord jealous because the organization is thought to command legions of one-issue voters ready to punish any deviationism from the never-pass-any-new-gun-laws imperative. Many legislators fear that casting a single vote for even a smidgen of restraint on weapons sales could be politically lethal.

But imagine if members of the NRA were more reasonable than the organization’s leaders and supporters in Congress in understanding the urgency of keeping guns out of the wrong hands.

NRA leaders, meet your members.

It turns out that the people in the ranks actually are much wiser than their lobbyists. In a move that should revolutionize the gun debate, Mayors Against Illegal Guns decided to go over the heads of Beltway types and poll gun owners and NRA members directly.

The survey, which will be released soon, wasn’t conducted by some liberal outfit, either, but by Frank Luntz, the Republican pollster lately famous for providing talking points against the Democrats’ health care bills. ..............(more)

The complete piece is at: http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/making_gun_safety_politically_safe_20091209/?ln




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Possumpoint Donating Member (937 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 08:11 AM
Response to Original message
1. Keep It Up
You'll set up another defeat for the Democratic Party. This issue doesn't fly.
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marmar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Yeah....I'M going to single-handedly hand the Democratic Party a defeat....
.... There is a daft level of intellectual dishonesty around here sometimes. :wtf:
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safeinOhio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 08:11 AM
Response to Original message
2. NRA leadership appears to be out of touch
"Still, those surveyed stood behind the core idea that gun regulations and gun rights complement each other. The poll offered this statement: “We can do more to stop criminals from getting guns while also protecting the rights of citizens to freely own them.” Among all gun owners and NRA members, 86 percent agreed.

NRA members also oppose the idea behind the so-called Tiahrt amendments passed by Congress. Named for Rep. Todd Tiahrt, R-Kan., the rules prevent law enforcement officials from having full access to gun trace data from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives and require the FBI to destroy certain background check records after just 24 hours. Talk about handcuffing the police.

The mayors’ poll offered respondents this statement, antithetical to the Tiahrt rules: “The federal government should not restrict the police’s ability to access, use, and share data that helps them enforce federal, state and local gun laws.” Among NRA members, 69 percent agreed."
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. Not sure about the wording of that, since the Tiahrt rules don't restrict police investigations,
AFAIK.

Personally, I don't think most gun owners have ever even heard of Tiahrt; the big problem is the real issues people like Dionne support but are not talking much about at the moment, things like the "assault weapon" fraud.
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safeinOhio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. what I thought it did

The Tiahrt Amendment
The Tiahrt Amendments are provisions attached to federal spending bills that make it harder for law enforcement officers to aggressively pursue criminals who buy and sell illegal guns. The amendments restrict cities, states and even the police from fully accessing and using Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) gun trace data, require the Federal Bureau of Investigation to destroy certain background check records within 24 hours, and block ATF from requiring gun dealers to conduct inventory checks to detect loss and theft.

sounds reasonable
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. Even the Brady Campaign doesn't go that far now, it seems.
Edited on Thu Dec-10-09 12:01 PM by benEzra
From the Brady Campaign website:

http://www.bradycampaign.org/legislation/gunlobbybacked/Tiahrt

POSITION: The Brady Campaign supports the repeal of the Tiahrt (TEE-art) Amendment that hides from the public valuable crime gun information and hinders law enforcement.

PROBLEM: The Tiahrt Amendment severely limits the authority of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) to disclose crime gun trace data to the public. It also codifies the Bush Administration policy to destroy certain criminal background check records after only 24 hours. Finally, it bars the ATF from implementing its proposed regulation requiring gun dealers to conduct annual inventory audits to address the problem of guns “disappearing” from gun shops with no record of sales.

THREAT: The Tiahrt Amendment hides from researchers, press, politicians and the public valuable information on crime guns that has been used to identify the sources of illegal guns, as well as to establish the effectiveness of policies to prevent illegal guns. The Tiahrt Amendment makes law enforcement’s job more difficult by requiring background checks to be destroyed in 24 hours and by barring annual inventory audits by gun shops.

URGENCY: Having effective policies to prevent illegal gun trafficking makes our families and communities safer. Repealing the Tiahrt Amendment would untie the hands of law enforcement, as well as give the public vital information needed to craft the most effective policies against illegal guns.

SOLUTION: Congress should repeal the Tiahrt Amendment as soon as possible.

GET ACTIVE: Contact your Representative and Senators to urge them repeal the Tiahrt Amendment.


What they don't make clear is that the checks required to be destroyed after 24 hours were those of people with clean records who passed the check, and the original law creating the instant check system required that such records be destroyed on privacy grounds (part of the compromise that created the check system in the first place); the law was being blithely ignored, so this put teeth in it. The Brady Campaign wants those kept as sort of a de facto registration system, so that data can be mined months or years later at whim. Data on people who fail the check are retained forever, AFAIK.

The law does not restrict police or the BATFE from conducting investigations; it prevents arbitrary release of the data for purposes other than criminal investigation. In an ideal world, that wouldn't be necessary, and it's not a huge deal, but the enforcement of the privacy provision is a big deal, and I suspect that's what really has the Brady Campaign up in arms, so to speak.

Here's the NRA's take on it, but I thought you'd probably give more credence to the Brady Campaign:

http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?id=208

Fact-check what they say. I don't see anything in there that's incorrect. I do know that the MAIG press release on the topic is pure BS.

Here's the actual text of the law, from what I can find:

(N)o funds appropriated under this or any other Act with respect to any fiscal year may be used to disclose part or all of the contents of the Firearms Trace System database maintained by the National Trace Center of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives or any information required to be kept by licensees pursuant to section 923(g) of title 18, United States Code, or required to be reported pursuant to paragraphs (3) and (7) of such section 923(g), to anyone other than a Federal, State, or local law enforcement agency or a prosecutor solely in connection with and for use in a bona fide criminal investigation or prosecution and then only such information as pertains to the geographic jurisdiction of the law enforcement agency requesting the disclosure and not for use in any civil action or proceeding other than an action or proceeding commenced by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, or a review of such an action or proceeding, to enforce the provisions of chapter 44 of such title, and all such data shall be immune from legal process and shall not be subject to subpoena or other discovery, shall be inadmissible in evidence, and shall not be used, relied on, or disclosed in any manner, nor shall testimony or other evidence be permitted based upon such data, in any civil action pending on or filed after the effective date of this Act in any State (including the District of Columbia) or Federal court or in any administrative proceeding other than a proceeding commenced by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives to enforce the provisions of that chapter, or a review of such an action or proceeding


Looks like it's mostly focused on stopping the misuse of the data in junk lawsuits, although that concern was address somewhat by the restrictions on same that Congress passed a few years ago. Like I said, to me the biggest issue is requiring the privacy provisions of the NICS law to be enforced, which prior to Tiahrt were routinely ignored.
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dmallind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 08:56 AM
Response to Original message
4. Neither news nor surprsing
Look at what the gunowners support and, with the possible exception of the terrorist watch list, which is too easily manipulated for political reasons, you will see that the DU gunowners support the same consistently, and that none of these regulations impinge on the right to freely own guns by normal responsible citizens.

Background checks at gunshows? Sure - but again the fascination with the locatioon is misplaced. What is needed is private seller access to the NICS period. I've sold about 8-10 guns privately. I've never so much as set foot in a gunshow. Most guns in private transactions are not at gunshows either.

Having to report stolen guns? Well duh - what idiot would not want to make sure the cops didn't know he was no lobger the owner of gun X when by definition it is now in criminal hands?

Terrorist watch list? If it was only for really suspected terrorists with a defined set of critreia establishing probable reasons to suspect terrorism then yep go nuts. When anybody can be placed on the list at the whim of politically motivated folks? Not so much.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 10:07 AM
Response to Original message
5. This is the same E.J. Dionne who's been saying since the '90s that new gun bans
would be a huge win for Dems at the polls (NOT). Here he is only eight months ago calling for a ban on the most popular civilian guns in America (which more Americans own than hunt):

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/19/AR2009041901995.html?sid=ST2009041902692

He is a zealot on the issue, and an unusually clueless one. Thankfully, the party has for the most part stopped listening to him and his ilk.
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safeinOhio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. Need to stop listening to zealots on both side
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. IMO, the zealots on the pro-gun side are pretty marginalized...
AFAIK, Gun Owners of America only has about 300,000 members out of 80+ million gun owners (which is likely ten times that of the gun-ban lobby, but still less than a tenth of the membership of the more compromising NRA, and only about 0.3% of gun owners).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_Owners_of_America

The majority of gun owners are OK with background checks, the National Firearms Act, and various other compromises. Most of us are NOT OK with BS like the "assault weapon" fraud, capacity limits, registration, and whatnot.
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 01:16 AM
Response to Original message
11. Poor E.J...
What he fails to admit is that if so many NRA members didn't agree with the NRA's stand, they wouldn't continue to send money every year.

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