"A lot of Swedes will argue that the most shameful thing is not that someone made a mistake......

[marmar]

...... but that everyone has to know about it."



from the Toronto Star:



Public furor might be worse for Woods than his transgressions
Nordic culture into which Tiger Woods married does not believe in airing marital laundry in public

By Mitch Potter Washington Bureau
Published On Sun Dec 13 2009


WASHINGTON–There's an inconvenient Swedish truth in the sorry saga of Tiger Woods and it has less to do with sex than scandal itself.

In wedding Elin Nordegren, Woods, now on indefinite hiatus, married into what is perhaps the world's most enigmatic culture.

But whatever we think we know about Swedes – the clichés of sex, suicide, socialism and spirits usually stand in as the big four – it is true Woods joined up with in-laws who prize privacy above all else.

It is not that nobody knows of the accomplished Nordegrens. Far from it. Woods' mother-in-law, Barbro Holmberg, is a prominent politician and former Swedish migration minister; his father-in-law, Thomas Nordegren, a well-known journalist who has traipsed the world on behalf of the Swedish Broadcasting Corp.

But their fame, if you can call it that, is of the uniquely low-key Swedish variety, where modesty and moderation remain the golden rules. One does not toot one's own horn in obsessively egalitarian Sweden, let alone flash bling in a limelight-seeking way. Sweden is where millionaire CEOs dress and drive the same as their junior-most assistants. Think hockey's Mats Sundin, the quietest-ever captain of the Leafs.

And so here comes Woods, hanging up the clubs as of Friday night and setting himself the challenge of somehow unsticking himself from the global gaze glued to his every move. And making amends to a family utterly allergic to fanfare. ..........(more)

The complete piece is at: http://www.thestar.com/sports/golf/woods/article/738159--swedes-insist-quietly-on-privacy?bn=1

[Submariner]

1. Low key...that's the spirit

[DavidDvorkin]

2. Amusing poster.

[Hugin]

4. and.... I now have a new desktop image.

Thanks, man. :7

[bertman]

31. "Making British girls look ugly since 1428". That is a classic. Love it, Submariner.

What team is that? The modeling team??

[Demeter]

3. I Often Said, My In-Laws Wouldn't Tell Me If My Hair Was on Fire

now dead, ex-in-laws.

[Faygo Kid]

5. Reminds me of Walter Mondale.

I know, Norwegian, but as someone half Swedish and half Norwegian, I can testify to the accuracy of this observation. Anyway, on Mondale, when he ran in 1984 he was criticized for not showing any emotions (one story was headlined "Norwegian Wood"), but he said for someone of Norwegian descent, he wore his heart on his sleeve (or something to that effect).

[Diclotican]

7. Faygo Kid

Faygo Kid

Scandinavians are not easy to understand, because it will take a long time just to understand that we do have some emotions at all... It is an old saying that it is newer easy to know an scandinavian, because we tend to be tight and not easy to "get to know". But if you get to "know" us, we also tend to be a really good friend for the rest of the life.. And I would say that also speak volumes about us...

Poor you, both swedish and Norwegian, how are you coping with THAT heritage??:evilgrin: Just kidding, I guess you are cooping really well with that:) But what a mix to have to live with:P

Diclotican

ps, I'm born and breed Norwegian by the way.

[Faygo Kid]

8. Coping well with the heritage, especially at Christmas.

Next Sunday a traditional Scandinavian meal for Christmas: Potato sausage, meatballs, potatoes, cream sauce, much more - and of course some glogg.

Never cultivated a taste for lutefisk, which was also a Christmas tradition back when I was young. Love all the cookies, too. And pickled herring, of course, but not with the cookies.

God Jul!

[Diclotican]

9. Faygo Kid

Faygo Kid

Most pepole do cople with the heritage, and I guess the cristmas heritage is more easy to cope with than many other things:) It is a time of the year we tend to go somewhat over the top, with all the food and stuff:)

Lutefisk is for the special interest, even tho I do like it, when made as it should have been... But I guess lutefisk are not the most easy meal to have even if it is just a couple of times a year..

The coockies is a tradtion, who was important even when I was young.. Rember home it was allways nice when the coockies was made, the smell was allways good.. And we know, if we was lucky some coockies who was not "good enough" for cristmas would came our way:)..

En hjertelig god jul til deg, og dine Faygo kid.. Peace be with you and your familiy Faygo Kid

Diclotican

[eridani]

14. The Scandinavian neighborhood in Seattle is Ballard

How do the celebrate the 4th of July in Ballard?
The Swedes throw firecrackers at the Norwegians, and then the Norwegians light them and throw them back. (Can be told the other way around.)

[Diclotican]

17. eridani

eridani

And still we are good friends... Just a friendly "kick in the ass" between "familiy:P".. And we also have a lot of jokes to tell about the "other" side.. Some of them is rather brutal, but we are friends in the end.. Intersting they are using firecrackers we tend to use rocks:evilgrin: And we are FAR better in celebrating our national day than the swedish..

Diclotican

[tavalon]

13. We see a good bit of that culture here in Seattle

People are friendly if you engage them, but otherwise, they keep space. They are mostly introverted and private.

[Diclotican]

18. Tavalon

Tavalon

There you have your scandinavian.. Most of us is friendly when you engage them, but we are not known as the most "contact" peopole and we might be private... It is an culture thing... And we have been known to be better as the yeas passed.. Both norwigians and swedish is far more "social" now, than we was for lets say 20-30 year ago... So maybe in a 100 years time we can be somewhat social as other parts of the world::evilgrin:

And we like our space.. The best nabour we have, is the fellow who live 3-4 km away from us.. And then I am not kidding..

Diclotican

[tavalon]

24. I actually like it

I can engage them easily if I want but otherwise they leave me the space to just wander without being bothered. In Texas, someone was always starting up friendly patter and I've always preferred a little more distance.

[Diclotican]

28. tavalon

tavalon

Most scandinavians is friendly, and is polite when you engage them for one reason or another.. But we are seldom the first to say hello to strangers.. We tend to let you leave your space, as long as you do the same with us...

Once I had an nabour who in periodes was somewhat special.. Sometimes he could talk to you in ages, and then we kind of lost track of both time and the rest of the world.. Other times he was more or less silent and was not talking to no other at all.. But he was allways friendly to us kids as least.. One year I remember he was not talking to no one for 6 months.. And then one day he just desided to talk again, and lords know that he had a lot to talk about... But then, it was summer when he desided to talk again:)

Diclotican

[tavalon]

30. Sounds like seasonal affective disorder

Or even bipolar. I'm glad you have fond memories of him.

[Diclotican]

35. tavalon

tavalon

It might have been someting like that.. But he was allways nice to most of the others then... Even when he was "down".. But then he just vanished to a cabin he had long away in the woods.. Where he could be alone.. And he liked his outdoor living by the way..

Yes, i have fond memories of him, he was a nice man, you had just to take the good with the bad, and the bad with the good...


Diclotican

[Diclotican]

6. mamar

marmar

Something like problems in marriage is seen to most of Scandinavians as some of the more personal thing to go out with.. It is not that traditional to show to much in public when it came to the "personal zone" anyway in most of Scandinavia.. And Swedish and Norwegians is maybe worst to show the personal feelings in public.. Many have that problem of showing personal feelings anyway... But privacy is one of the most important things we scandinavians like more than everything...

Moderation and Modesty, is one of the key ground stones most doesn't seen to understand outside scandinavia.. To the point where you can find your CEO drive the same as their junior assistans...Not because they doesn't have the will, or the money to do it, but more because it is just the way things is played out... And even tho the swedish is special in some way, the same rules is in effect in all scandinavia... And the "elite" is rather low key in their actions even when they do have the means to really show off their wealth.. But it can also be some with the fact that Scandinavia is a place where you have more than 8 year with cold winter, and we tend to live inside the most..?. And we tend to use a lot of resources to make our homes as comfortable as it can possible be..

The most difficult task for Wood would not be to unstick himself from the media, but to make amends to the family in Sweden.. The global media Will stick to him to the next extra-marriage affair from another star, that be in golf, or another type of sports.. But Woods would be in real trouble next time he visit, or they visit him.. The culture when it come to this is VERY different in scandinavia, than in sunny California.. We might be little "stiff" about that in our culture.. A kind of no go... for most that is.. But it exist far more than we like to admit at first glance... But with the case with Wood.. The worst is not that he had an extra-marriage affair.. The worst is that the whole case was blown up in something it newer should be in first case.. And that is maybe therefore he would try hard to make amends to his family in scandinavia...

Diclotican

[burning rain]

10. Thing is, Elin married into American culture as much as Tiger did into Swedish.

American rules hold that you grab what you can; we don't even have a pretense of egalitarianism, instead embracing the most savage inequality, but at the same time, as a sort of trivial compensation, the rabble is allowed the cheap thrill of guffawing at personal travails of celebrities and their families.

[Diclotican]

12. burning rain

burning rain

Oh well, when US got some ages on their back, they might have some ideas of what culture is, and the importance of accepting culture and what come with age... US are still a really young nation, and have to calm down and be grown up before they try to understand what in this instance Sweden have learned over the last 1000 or more year..

Diclotican

[burning rain]

15. Buddy, I'm not saying I like American values as they are.

I don't. I'm just telling you how it is: the predominant culture of America, is the culture of money. Most Americans believe that your worth as a human being is determined by your income. I don't like it--but it is what is. Most Americans will inevitably think Tiger Woods has the right to grind Elin under his shoe, simply because he has much more ability to make money.

[Diclotican]

16. burning rain

burning rain

I know and Im not sure that is the best of values, and that is the best of a culture, that what you are worth, or what you earn is the whole point of your living.. I know a few who are rich as hell, but they are also some of the most arroant, un-honest excuse for a human beeing... The only thing they care of, is what you earn and what you do for a living.. And his oldest offspring is no less a excuse for a living by the way...

On the other side I also know many who are not that rich, who have worked all they life, and would by no standard be shown as "rich".. But they have allways been kind to me, and have learned me many important thing about life, and is persons who I for one both admire and deeply respect as human beeing. And they tend also to be some I considerer my family by the way, not by blood, but byt he fact i have lived with them most of my upbringning and I still have good contact with them. And I know a few others, who are hardworking and honest as the day.. But they dosen't have alot of money, but they are maybe more worth than a billion dollar as friends.

I think mr Woods was doing a really stupid thing when he hax that woman instead of continuing to be faitful to Elin, and if the marriage survive this hit, it might survive everything... But this is not up to the press to deside, this is up to the two grown ups, where the man now is in breatch of marriage... I would say that it wil be a mighty woman if she shoose to forgive him, and to continue this marriage after all this is blown over.. Not a easy task...

Im not sure if this marriage wil survive.. But if it does, wel then it maight be hope for all of us in the end?

Diclotican

[amandabeech]

20. Speak for yourself.

I don't hold those views and I have known very, very few people who would go as far as you state in your last sentence.

[burning rain]

21. Spare me the "speak for yourself" baloney.

No-one just speaks for himself. And a bitter pill is healthful medicine for those many Americans who claim to be decent, caring people while in reality worshipping money and themselves.

[amandabeech]

22. Obviously, we are very different people with different sets of friends and acquaintances.

But yes, people do speak for themselves.

Perhaps Diocletian will now see that it is difficult to generalize about Americans.

[burning rain]

23. You appear to have constructed a little world of mostly nice liberals.

That is not most of America. I know many nice liberals who live in cocoons and can't imagine how Reagan or George W. Bush got elected. "OMG!" they cry, "how could they have gotten elected? No-one I know voted for them!"

[Diclotican]

27. amandabeech

amandabeech

You americans ALWAYS surprise me, when you are doing the opposite of what I believed you to do.. Like when you "elected" GWB in 2000.. I was going to bed in the belief that mr Gore won the election because no one wanted a dumass as mr Bush in charge of US.. And woke up to the news that mr Bush indeed was in charge of the country... That was some of an aye opener for me when it come to US..

And then, the next 8 year you scared the hell out of me, surprised me, and scared the hell out of me time and time again as the one more outlandish idea about what US was all about was landing from the land of the free, the land of the brave...

Today I would say I can't understand the american "culture" at all.. Because from my point of view you all look really like nut cases to me.. Once I believed I had figured you out of sorts.. Today I'm not sure I know your "culture" at all... You act as most europeans most of the times.. But other times you could have been from the Klingon Empire for all that I know... Or at least from an another planet..

Diclotican

[amandabeech]

29. We're a very large country, and, in my opinion, there are strong regional differences

as well as strong subcultural differences.

People from other parts of the country view people from the East Coast as loud, nasty and pushy. East Coast types often think that the rest of the people in the country, until you hit California, are a bunch of idiots.

The South is rather conservative and often thought to be more religious. The Plains States can be somewhat similar.

Midwesterners, of which I am one, are supposed to be friendly and down-to-earth.

West Coast types are supposed to be very calm ("laid back") and cool.

Well, those are the stereotypes.

Maybe the truth is that we are still a very young country which has gained population by large scale immigration from all over the world.
We're still very much non-homogenized.

As to Bush v. Gore, there was a huge foul-up in the polling of people who had just voted by at least one of the networks. Networks in the past used exit polling to help them make early predictions about the elections. In Bush v Gore, the networks got it totally wrong, fairly early in the evening--I think that it was 8 or 9 pm DC/NY time. That's when you probably went to bed. A couple of hours later, the networks took it back because Florida didn't go as they had thought. We were all awake, of course, but it was really a terrible mistake and the networks are now being much more careful in calling results when there are only a few actual results.

A lot of people wanted Bush. They'd had it with Clinton and the Dems, and looked back wistfully at the George H.W. Bush administration. They thought that George W. Bush would be more like his father. I didn't like the elder Bush--you can read all about his misdeeds here on DU--but he was not nearly as horrid as his son. Bush Sr. ran the first Gulf War, in which we went in and got out quickly, and didn't try to get rid of Sadam or take over the country. He even tried to warn his son against getting mired in Iraq. A lot of people who voted for Bush Jr. ended up regretting their vote, but they just didn't like Kerry, who seemed like a snob to many and who had a very controversial role in the anti-Viet Nam movement back in the late '60s and early '70s. I liked the guy, but he really wasn't a great candidate.

I've traveled in Europe, hosted an exchange student from France, and in living in NY and DC, have had quite a few acquaintances from Europe. I think that Europeans have much contact with Americans outside the big cities, particularly the NY, LA and Miami. As I noted above, there are huge parts of this country that simply are much more conservative than Europe, and Europeans don't really understand that many Americans really think that America just simply can't be wrong. I don't see it that way, but so many do.

Don't worry though, we're really having problems here and American hegemony may decrease.

I've tried to explain things to you in the past, and have given up because I simply could not get my points across to you. I hope that you will be able to understand at least some of what I've written this time.

[Diclotican]

36. amandabeech

amandabeech

The last thing first.

By all menans I might not be the smartes man here, not by a long shot by the way, but I try to understand you, and what does you tick, and I would proberly never do that becouse I just dosen "get it".. On way you act as "us" and then you turn 180 and does the opposite of what you did the day before.. Confusing at least.. But it is sad if you had given up even trying to explain why US are like it is.. But I have then to go to other sources to try to be informed of your amazing country who have so mutch to give the rest of the world...

And indeed, your country IS an force of good for the most part, but when you go off the road and act out as under GWB you are not the force of good anymore.. We just have to hope for the best I guess that the next president at least did some damage control...

Indeed your country is big, and your difference between the different parts of US is also large.. And I have just visited your county once, and want to go back to wisit, and to se your country far more than I have beeing doing. Your Country is far from bad, but amazing in all its grandor...

Well, if you go outside most city's in europe, the population tend to be more conservative than in he city's, its not a difference from the rest of the world in that prospect.. But the "conservative" thing is maybe little over th top in some parts of US?.. But then again the pendle can go the other way in Europe too.. Conservatism after all, is a child of europe

But it is maybe true, we might not trully understand what making americans tick... Not trully..

I know US have huge problems to sort out.. But for some reason or another Im sure about that US wil sort it out, it wil hard, it wil be brutal, but you wil go tre it, with friends you have. And you have frinds, who want, or can help you. Not just Allied, but friends..

Diclotican

[amandabeech]

37. I actually have spent a bit of time in a couple of places in rural. Europe.

An area of the eastern Italian Alps where my French exchange student had family, and in southern Sweden where two of my great-grandparents came from. It wouldn't surprise me if they were more conservative than city types. They were also very, very friendly and helpful, particularly in Sweden.

I think, though, that in many rural areas here, the conservatism is far stronger than anything I noticed in Europe. Part of the conservatism comes from strong religious beliefs in an extremely conservative Protestantism. They take the Bible very literally. They often have strong religious prohibitions on anything fun (well, by my definitions), like alcohol, dancing, contemporary non-Christian music, playing cards and watching movies. Some of them think that Jesus is returning any day now, to clean things up here on earth. Unfortunately for others, "cleaning up" means that all Jews must return to the Middle East, eventually convert to Christianity and kill all the non-believers--or something like that. Some of them really live in a parallel world. I doubt that you have so many like that in Europe. Scandinavian Lutherans where I come from don't go in for the crazy stuff, and I doubt that they go in for it where you live.

I'm glad that you haven't written us off. If you visit again, I suggest that you get outside the big cities for awhile and just drive around. Many Americans enjoy driving across the country at least once in their lifetimes. It gives us a sense of what the whole place is like. You might enjoy it, too.

[Diclotican]

38. Amandabeech

Amandabeech

Good to know that you have been "over there" in Europe and have family you still visit sometimes. And you even have family in Sweden where your ancestors is from. But for the most part the rural areas tend to be somewhat conservative in their outlook... Anyway it is might the fact all over the world, the rural areas tend to be somewhat more conservative than in their big City's.. As grown up in rural areas I guess I'm even are somewhat conservative.. Even tho I believe I'm rather liberal compared to what is the norm "there over" in US...

I guess europe as a whole is not that conservative as in the US, for some reason or another I really doubt we today have so meting like your "conservative" ideology, and even in the areas where the bible IS important, the people at a whole tend to be more liberal than their counterparts in US.. In Norway we have a "belt" in the southern parts of the country, where the bible and a strong belief in Jesus Crist is the norm, and where, things like alcohol, dancing and modern music to for ca 15 year ago was something evil who "Christians" docent was listening to.. It have changed a bit from that the last 20 or so year.. But we still have a lot of conservatives who doesn't like it... Myself is rather conservative in many ways myself, even tho I'm rather liberal in some ways too. It all depend of what the thing is about I guess... But if YOU want to drink then so do it.. I'm happy not drinking.. And I can have all the fun in the world too:)..

The more extreme conservative Protestantism can be with some, or most of the emigrants from Europe, and Norway was deeply religious and in the 3-4 or 5 generation who passed since they emigrated to US, they have not been less conservative.. For most of Europe the emigration of this deeply religious persons to US, was a sort of blessing. Mostly because many of them had the habit of being a pain in in the ass for the governments...

No I really doubt that "our nut cases" Will go in for the same as the rather deeply conservatives in US are going in for. Most of them are just religious in their ways, and try to do their best for their next man.. My grand father was when he was married to my grandmother an evangelist in fact, his wife died of Cancer in 1967, and I really believe they loved each other deeply because he newer remarried, I have a old picture from the wedding, and lord she is was a beautifully woman. I can understand why he believed he was an Lucky man The religious thing have somewhat washed down to me too. Even tho I'm in a different church that he was in... He was never trying to push his belief to anyone, not his grandsons as best as I can remember anyway, but he was deeply religious I'm told. And I try to be somewhat in the same way myself. Not trying to push my belief to another.. Doesn't feel comfortable of doing it anyway..

I hope one day to have enough money to travel to your country, and to discover much more than I was discovering then. US is a country I really want to visit again, And this time I Will discover it by myself too:).. Not just the city, but also the parts who is outside the city.. US is an amazing country with a lot to foreigner to discover... But I guess I need a visa of sorts because I guess my stay Will take some times:P

I have always dreamed about driving true Route 66, but one time I was told that the southern route was more nicer to travel because of their history, and not least their people and food.. I'm not sure, as my "dream-trip" are just at the starting line for the moment. If I was to travel half the globe I want to discover most of it when I'm there.. What you advice of is smart to do.. Rent just an car, or have an "Mobil-home"? Bigger but then you are not that in need of a hotel room or a motel room as with an ordinary car.. You have some great roads there... Have only wisted one of your states, Florida and it was an warm experience - even when it was in November.. It was seldom under 18 degrees Celsius (who compared to at the same time it was -10 Celsius in the area I was living then)And it for the most was in the 20s.. Rather warm if you are used to snow and cold at that time of the year.. But then it is different from state to state, different from areas to areas.. US is a BIG country, with as you pointed out differences bigger than in most of Europe..

I don't written you off, even after 8 year with the wandering catastrophe GWB you are still in my book a country, and a people to be friends with..Not just because you are the biggest, meanest nation there is. But because most americans I have ever encountered have been nice, and polite and some of them i se as my friends too. And I doesn't use the word Friend cheaply, it is a word with a meaning to me. You might act different, and be somewhat wierd... But you are still a country I want to visit, I once even thought of emigrate to your country.. But for some reason or another it never get into anything... And now I'm kind of "settled" in my way here I am living so I guess it Will never be a emigration for my part.. But when I have the money I Will try to visit your country, to really discover your country, and to try to learn to know you all better... But I have to admit, my speaking english is rather not good, and it shows when I talk that I'm not from your parts of the world.. But I understand most of it then..

Diclotican

[bigmonkey]

25. Spare me the "speaking for everybody" crap.

You have a way overblown notion of your own powers if you think you can state unequivocally what "American culture"'s values are. You're just telling an exaggerated story to puff yourself up.

[burning rain]

26. Strawman.

I don't claim to speak for everyone. But if you don't generalize, you can't account for the differences among nations. Perhaps you don't care to face them, but many do.

[bigmonkey]

32. So, stereotyping and dismissiveness.

A great combination!

[burning rain]

33. Ah, the familiar whine about stereotyping.

Would you also bawl if I observed that Mississippi is a more conservative state than Vermont? I have only contempt for the softheaded claim that "folks are the same everywhere" and general national/regional differences don't exist.

[bigmonkey]

34. Good luck!

Derision and contempt are appropriate further additions!

[proteus_lives]

39. Really?

That's what most Americans think? Good thing you're friends with nearly 300 million people and can tell us their thoughts.

:eyes:

[JonQ]

11. I understand that their culture is different

but they need to understand Tiger is an american, she married him and moved here (or vice versa). So she's subject to american culture, not swedish. You can't try to apply your cultural mores to ours and condemn us for being different.

[Hestia]

19. It used to be in the US not air your public laundry for all to see and talk about.

Every time there is a critical vote or other issue that really needs to be discussed, viola, we get a celebrity scandal.