How do I know China wrecked the Copenhagen deal? I was in the room

[Lars77]

Source: The Guardian

Copenhagen was a disaster. That much is agreed. But the truth about what actually happened is in danger of being lost amid the spin and inevitable mutual recriminations. The truth is this: China wrecked the talks, intentionally humiliated Barack Obama, and insisted on an awful "deal" so western leaders would walk away carrying the blame. How do I know this? Because I was in the room and saw it happen.

Read more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/dec/22/copenhagen-climate-change-mark-lynas

[rockymountaindem]

1. The ending of the article sums up my response to people here who say the US shouldn't be the

dominant power in the world anymore. Essentially: "Do you trust anybody else to do a better job?"

I'm glad Pres. Obama was willing to make some serious moves, but why didn't he or Brown or Merkel or ANYONE try to make the Chinese give up their stonewalling?

[Cant trust em]

3. What would the technique be to make them give up their stonewalling?

What carrot or stick could we use on this?

[JDPriestly]

13. Impose a carbon tax on all goods both imported and domestic.

This is the first I have thought that to be a good idea. It would even out the environmental costs of production. Every manufacturing facility would be rated and items that come from dirty facilities would be taxed a higher value added tax than those coming from facilities that are cleaner. If a manufacturer refused to cooperate on providing accurate information (verifiable by an international commission) about its production facilities, transportation, etc., then other countries would be justified in taxing that manufacturer's products at the maximum. The tax could be multi-national. I suspect that Europeans would gladly work with Americans to adopt such a tax.

As it is we export, and the Chinese and Indians gladly import, our pollution. "Free trade" with certain other countries really means giving those countries license to pollute to their hearts content while we send our jobs to them and import the stuff they make in dirty factories. We have clear consciences because we don't see the filth or breathe the bad air. They "improve" their standards of living, in other words, they get more consumable goods.

Eastern Europe went this route. One day they noticed that their forests were dying. That was one of the main factors leading to the end of the USSR. Someone from one of the Eastern European countries once said to me "Marx never talked about nature." Apparently neither do the Chinese or Indians.

[Sparky 1]

21. Ooo I like that.

[blue97keet]

33. Yes, it is never discussed how much of China's growth in pollution

is directly related to it's exports to the U.S. and the rest of the world. It would make sense for the importers to impose a tax on their own consumption.

[Tumbulu]

34. excellent idea

thanks for posting that.

[mother earth]

32. The biggest thing they have over us is trade, and we over them.

[girl gone mad]

4. Do you really have to ask?

[tuvor]

7. Oh, fer fuxakes. There's that USA arrogance again.

"Do you trust anybody else to do a better job?"

:eyes:

I'm hunching you would not have asked that same question one lousy year ago.

Are you sure you'll be asking the same question in four?

[amandabeech]

19. I'd be thrilled if your country (Canada) stepped up to the plate.

I'm not happy with the prospect of an authoritarian China stepping up, however.

[rockymountaindem]

29. I was asking that question a year ago

and I stand by my assessment. Of the states that have the actual or potential power to become the hegemon, I still think the US is the best for the world. The EU might also make a decent hegemon, but they don't seem to have the political will to translate their large population and economy into power projection.

[nxylas]

15. Some of us don't think any one nation should be the "dominant power"

It doesn't matter whether that nation is the US, China or, I dunno, Luxembourg. When one nation has the power to hold the rest of the world to ransom, they are unlikely to use that power for the good of humanity as a whole.

[Cant trust em]

2. Very interesting article.

Ultimately, we don't have a lot of leverage over China. They seem hell bent to do whatever they want.

[ShortnFiery]

20. "They seem hell bent to do whatever they want." They're just following the USA's LEAD over ...

the past four decades? :wow:

[Solly Mack]

5. K&R

[silverweb]

6. Wow.

The last two paragraphs are definitely sobering.

[dysfunctional press]

8. i'm just glad that i don't have any kids to worry about leaving the planet to...

but since i'm already 48, and with chronic health problems- i'm probably not going to be around to witness the REALLY spectacular stuff...:(

[pa28]

9. Interesting read.

I'm sure they're having a good laugh over putting a clerk across from Obama and getting away with it.

[Hekate]

10. Kick, Rec, Bookmark, Save article. The RW is already setting the stage to wreck our own climate bill

... and blame Obama for the "failure."

Jeez that article is sick-making.

Hekate

[bc3000]

11. So, sort of like health care?

Obama concedes and concedes in order to get something passed.

[dipsydoodle]

12. Maybe they were not offered enough slack.

All they need to do is match the USA's offer of a 4% reduction on 1990 levels, which in their case would be sweet fuck all , and given a pass to match the USA's actual total CO2 output from 1990 to date. :sarcasm:

[TomClash]

14. We will rue the day we let China dominate the world stage

Mark my words. It will not be pretty and we will suffer for it.

[Lars77]

23. You let them?

How would you have stopped a country with 1,5 billion people from dominating the world stage, exactly?

[Demeter]

16. Good For China

They actually proved that they were offered an awful deal, and refused it. We all were saved by this. Most of our "leaders" would have taken the bribes and subjected their populations to more slavery. How are you going to bribe 3 billion Chinese?

[architect359]

24. That may be

But they may have pushed our efforts to re-balance (for lack of a better term at the moment) the effects we've imposed on the environment.

China cares about China.

[Demeter]

26. Which Is More Than We Can Say About US Leadership

I am sorry to say.

[GeorgeGist]

17. Did you notice that Symbolman ...

came late and left early?

[druidity33]

18. huh? nt.

[glitch]

28. Don't think GG is talking about DU's Symbolman.

I think it might be a reference to Obama's statement yesterday about the PO being symbolic.

[OnceUponTimeOnTheNet]

22. A good read, Thanks. rec.

[jbfam4]

25. Great post....thanks, Lars

[Tutankhamun]

27. So depressing. People are really willing to literally make the earth

uninhabitable, with drought, famine, massive migrations beginning in many of our lifetimes. And for what? Political/economic "advantage"? What kind of advantage is it when your country's sustainability is destroyed?

This is so fucking crazy. I think I'm going to get a prescription for Prozac. Seriously.

[Martin Eden]

30. We were in a position of weakness

We couldn't threaten China with trade sanctions because they hold so much of our debt and could destroy us by dumping the dollar.

[wuvuj]

31. China gets away with it due to the accumulated effects of....

...incompetent US leadership. US corporations given much power...they are MULTI-NATIONALS...they give a damn about profits...but have allegiance to no particular country?

Our govt is corporate owned.

[Mulehead]

35. Boycott Chinese Imports.

If you weren't already because of Tibet, then you should be because of China's actions at Copenhagen. Because of this, mankind has probably lost its last best chance to control anthropogenic climate change and save the planet and our species. Since it is largely the manufacture of cheap plastic crap in China and its export to the insipid voracious consumers of the Western economies for the greedy self profit of China's politico-economic totalitarian ruling class that is simultaneously allowing China to become the new 800lb gorilla on the world's economic playground while destroying Life on Earth, that all thinking people everywhere should stop buying all that cheap Chinese plastic crap (CCPC), and all those Chinese TVs and Bluerays and iphones and computers and vast piles of other consumer shit manufactured there, and start sourcing their necessities and luxuries from elsewhere, particularly from countries that are leading the charge on taking effective action to prevent climate change. Only a boycott of all things Chinese--electronics, clothing, CCPC--will get the attention of the faceless little stalinist hybrid commie/capitalist rat bastards that run the Chinese Communist Party and thus China, and thus perhaps force them to be a tad more cooperative down the road. The same boycott should also be extended to the greedy reaganist fascist capitalist rat bastards the run the multi-national corporations of the Western economies such as Walmart, Exxon and Monsanto et al that make and sell Cheap Western Plastic Crap (CWPC). People everywhere should stop overconsuming and start buying what they really need from local small business that attempt to follow sustainable practices and to minimize our own carbon footprint. But everyone can help China to see the error of its ways and minimizing their personal carbon footprint by SIMPLY NOT buying CCPC, which will at least slow down the rate that China burns carbon to crank all that shit out on their behalf, and you will add a few more seconds of life for Mother Earth.