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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-10-10 06:52 AM
Original message
Understanding Afghanistan (from a person who lived there -- for nearly five years)
Edited on Fri Sep-10-10 07:49 AM by Land Shark
With the permission of the author, I'm posting this article "Understanding Afghanistan" in full, originally found here: http://fubarandgrill.org/node/514 During the 60s and 70s, the author lived for nearly five years in Afghanistan, learned to speak Pushto (a.k.a. Pakhto, Pashto, Pukhto, Pashtu, Pushtu or Afghani), and some of the culture as well.

One of the more interesting parts of the article is seeing the learning curve in progress in the context of some interesting stories about the people and the culture. The occasion for this article is a somewhat off the cuff response to a comment made about Afghanistan, one that could just as well have been made here on DU - by an apparently well-intentioned person.


Understanding Afghanistan



On a mailing list I subscribe to, somebody posted a lengthy comment about Afghanistan. He said that it isn't a country, it is a lot of tribes scattered over a geographic area and united by a common religion and language.

He wrote that the Afghan people consider strangers with guns to be their enemies.

Although he admitted that Afghanistan cannot be conquered by force, he felt that it can (and should) be conquered by diplomacy.

To this effect he suggested that we should get to know the Afghan people and find out what they want.
He then went on to say that they need roads, schools, jobs, and green energy technology to replace opium poppies, donkeys, and camels.

He concluded with some vile words (which I repeat in turning them around) for the way that male Afghan religious extremists treat women.

Although he advised humility rather than arrogance, it was obvious he had never sat down with Afghans to learn what they wanted, and simply assumed that they wanted what most Americans want.
That in itself is a form of arrogance.

Here is what I wrote in response:

Actually, Afghanistan is a nation. It isn't a centralized government like ours, it is decentralized. But it has survived that way for thousands of years and whether we will survive another fifty is dubious.

I lived in Afghanistan for almost five years in the late '60s, early '70s. I went there on my own and was not connected with any governmental or nongovernmental organization. I volunteered in a hospital and ran a free clinic in my home. I learned Pushto. I spent most of my time with Afghans rather than with Americans.

Afghanistan does not have a common language. It has two major or official languages, Farsi (Persian) and Pushto, but there are about 30 other languages.

Whether you do or don't have a gun, as long as you don't attack them, the Afghan people have a tradition of welcoming strangers and are very friendly and hospitable. As all Afghan males usually have guns, they don't see anything wrong with strangers having guns, as long as they aren't hostile or part of an invading army.

While it is true that the Afghans will never be conquered by force, they will never be conquered by diplomacy either. If you could live with them for an extended length of time and learn what they want, you'd find that what they want is not to be conquered and to continue the traditional way of life that has sustained them for thousands of years. Many Afghans have traveled to or have relatives in the U.S. and Europe, they know what modern development has to offer, and they don't want it. They certainly don't want roads, as roads would only make things easier for invading armies.

Why bring in solar panels and storage batteries when they already have a sustainable green system? Donkeys and camels don't have to be produced in capitalist sweatshops out of raw materials gained through genocidal resource wars, they reproduce naturally. And they provide fertilizer instead of toxic wastes that are impossible to dispose of. Donkeys and camels are totally organic, sustainable, and biodegradable. I don't know of any green energy source that you can say the same about.

As for the opium poppies, if the CIA didn't need heroin profits to fuel its black budgets, Afghans would grow no more opium than they did when I was there, some for herbal medicinal use, and some for barter. They had no drug problem because they didn't use it recreationally and they weren't desperate enough to need it to drown out reality the way many westerners do.

Americans seem to think that everybody wants to be rich. Most Afghans would be ashamed to be rich, as it would mean that they hadn't shared their good fortune with their neighbors and had hoarded it for themselves, a disgrace that could easily see them ostracized. One Afghan once told me, "Most Americans are rich, but you're an American and you aren't rich. I'm poor, but that's okay because everybody here is poor. But it must be terrible for you to be poor in a rich country." This was an illiterate Afghan who had never been to school. I know many Americans with doctorates who aren't half that astute.

They don't need education either. We have education for jobs that don't exist and I've spent 7 decades of my life watching our educational system decline.

The Afghan people are moderate Muslims when they're not being attacked. When they're invaded, they expect the religious warriors among them to lead the fight to drive off the invaders, so they become more militant, but it doesn't last once the invaders are gone.

As for the treatment of women, when I was in Afghanistan there was no prostitution. Women were sold into marriage, not sold to pimps and brothels. Most Afghan men love their wives and children. Do you judge the U.S. by abusive husbands, brutal pimps, exploitive pornographers, and the other types of male bovine excrement that abound in our society?

The Taliban were nothing and had no power until we started funding them to fight the Russians. The Russians had done things in Afghanistan that we considered totally unacceptable, such as allowing women equal rights, funding schools for both girls and boys, providing free health care, etc. We destroyed the Soviet Union because we abhor Communist crimes like that. Our oligarchs fear that if such heresy spreads, it could interfere with their corporate profits.

I remember the first time I tried to take a taxi at the Khyber pass. There were several empty taxis, but they were unattended. One taxi had five ferocious looking men in it, all with turbans or those pancake hats, beards and mustaches, rifles, and bandoliers full of ammunition. They kept smiling at me and gesturing to me to get into their taxi, but I was terrified--certain they intended to rob me. Finally somebody who spoke English turned up and he explained to me that the taxi couldn't leave until it had a full load of passengers and they only needed one more. It turned out to be a pleasant ride and was my introduction to overcoming stereotypes.

Understanding the world is a long journey, I pass along to you the standard Pushto greeting, "St'rai m'shee," which means, may you not be tired.

Source: http://fubarandgrill.org/node/514 (reprinted in full with express permission and link to source)


I think that's a great and lovely greeting: May you not be tired!
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howard112211 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-10-10 07:08 AM
Response to Original message
1. Portraying native populations in a positive light will get you accused
of "idealizing the noble savage" here.

Nice article, thanks.
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Sixathome Donating Member (28 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-10-10 07:12 AM
Response to Original message
2. BEAUTIFUL
As a Muslim , a woman and a communist I thank you for posting and the author for his insight.


"Americans seem to think that everybody wants to be rich. Most Afghans would be ashamed to be rich, as it would mean that they hadn't shared their good fortune with their neighbors and had hoarded it for themselves, a disgrace that could easily see them ostracized. One Afghan once told me, "Most Americans are rich, but you're an American and you aren't rich. I'm poor, but that's okay because everybody here is poor. But it must be terrible for you to be poor in a rich country." This was an illiterate Afghan who had never been to school. I know many Americans with doctorates who aren't half that astute"

Sublime
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-10-10 07:23 AM
Response to Original message
3. Comparing Des Moines to NYC
I'm afraid much of this perspective comes from the local region in which this person spent their time. It would be a bit like someone spending 5 years in Des Moinse, Iowa, and discussing how people in "America" thought, felt, and acted. It's a big enough country, and it is a tad more diverse than is being suggested. Furthermore, there are definitely elements within the country, powerful ones, that want to be "rich".

It is a difficult country to "rule", even the Taliban didn't truly rule the whole country. I don't think we have a prayer. And there is a serious problem of attempting to discuss the country in terms of simple stereotypes. But that goes for ones like this as well. It's a diverse place, most nations are. We aren't going to change that, and we probably aren't going to improve it much either, if at all.

I have no idea what Obama thinks he is going to accomplish by continuing to kill people there.
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2 Much Tribulation Donating Member (522 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-10-10 08:04 AM
Response to Original message
4. quote: "it must be terrible for you to be poor in a rich country"
Paying the price of not keeping up with the Kardashians.
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-10-10 08:18 AM
Response to Original message
5. K&R
WTF, are we STILL doing there?
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-10-10 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. What are we STILL doing there? I don't know, but the OP highly suggests LOSING in various ways. nt
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elleng Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-10-10 08:29 AM
Response to Original message
6. Thank you.
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-10-10 08:48 AM
Response to Original message
7. Thanks. I will read it later.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-10-10 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
9. According to reliable sources, Afghanistan has never really been conquered, and those that tried
lost more than they gained.

I think we should bring home all our soldiers..immediately...and then deal with the unemployment that results.
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2 Much Tribulation Donating Member (522 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-10-10 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Not feeling anyneed to force you to divulge those particular sources! ;) Thanks BrklynLiberal nt
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-10-10 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. I have heard it many places..but had to do a google to find info...
Here are a few hits...It seems that only Attila the Hun or Ghengis Khan actually was victorious in Afghanistan

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081222202100AAALz0a

http://www.bsu.edu/news/article/0,1370,-1019-3900,00.html

http://www.theanswerbank.co.uk/History/Question456371.html

and of course, the ever present Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Afghanistan

It appears while there were countries that came to Afghanistan and won battles, no one ever really was able to rule the entire coutnry.

The sad part is that the current argument about our presence is that we are not there to conquer, but to liberate.
To me that is a sad, and rather pointless distinction. The battles look the same to the people who live there.

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2 Much Tribulation Donating Member (522 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-10-10 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. Thanks for the links -- realy wasn't expecting them! nt
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-10-10 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
10. K&R --
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-10-10 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
12. Recommended.
A close friend lived in that region for over a decade; his father worked for US intelligence and brought the family along. We've discussed these same issues at length. The sad truth is that the on-going US war in Afghanistan will bring about more pronounced changes in our country than in Afghanistan.

One of the most important things in Jonathan Alter's new book, "The Promise: President Obama, Year One," is that the author documents that the military brass has no intention of abiding by the President's plans to begin removing US troops next year -- no matter if they are "winning" or "losing." The military is not going to cooperate with Obama: they plan to force him to cooperate with their long-range plans in Afghanistan.
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-10-10 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Thanks H2OMan, but you definitely buried the lead on this thread reply! Recommended! nt
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-10-10 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. I think it's one
of the most important factors for liberal & progressive democrats to consider as we approach the mid-term elections.

A few dynamics worthy of our attention: {1} the heads of the military are entrenched in their beliefs that they need to keep a large number of US forces in Afghanistan; {2} President Obama has come to recognize that, despite his attempts to avoid being put in the "bubble" that almost all modern presidents get trapped in, he already is -- an hence, he has no real progressive left imput in the administration (the only voice close to the left is that of the First Lady; and {3} most of the democrats in Congress are not concerned with being associated with being on the President's side.

The democratic left is in a position to have more of an impact in the upcoming elections than any other single group in America. We need to get into a huddle, and talk shop. I believe that this forum -- despite the pressure that the moderate-to-conservative members attempt to apply -- is a good place to do just that. We have a solid core of, for lack of a better term, insightful people. There are plenty of good OPs (definitely including yours), which we need to focus on, rather than allowing ourselves to be annoyed or distracted.
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-10-10 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Agreed. Are you going to call a meeting?
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suffragette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #18
25. Astute observations, as always
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-10-10 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
13. A beautiful post, of inspired insights.
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-10-10 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
16. The author of the OP added this trenchant comment in the original linked article's comments
{snip}
I don't agree that we need to understand the Afghans. I think we need to understand ourselves. The Afghans understand the Afghans. But because they've fought off invaders for thousands of years, they also understand us. They understand militarism, imperialism, colonialism, and capitalism because they've fought off bloodthirsty invading hordes before. And they will this time also.

Afghanistan is a much older culture than we are. They are much more "civilized" in the sense that they haven't invaded other countries. For someone whose country is only a couple of hundred years old, to think they can improve a country that is thousands of years old, is sheer hubris.

The invasion of Afghanistan bankrupted the Soviet Union and it soon collapsed. The invasion of Afghanistan is bankrupting us, and we will soon collapse too. Not for nothing is Afghanistan called the graveyard of empires. Some of our officials brag about tricking the USSR into invading Afghanistan and thereby bringing about the collapse of the USSR. Who tricked us into invading Afghanistan? Who wanted to bring about our collapse? They're the real enemies of this country, not the Afghans.
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-10-10 05:13 PM
Response to Original message
17. beautiful, and unexpected. I guess I had (have) lots of stereotypes myself....
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 04:54 AM
Response to Reply #17
21. Beautiful and unexpected: I thought so too; which is why I posted it
Agree or not, there's a wonderful quality to the unexpected insights along the way of the original author's post.
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
22. K&R.
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pleah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
23. K&R
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PufPuf23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 03:09 PM
Response to Original message
24. Afghanistan invited the Soviets, We bred the Taliban
Our leaders do not intend to leave but rather establish a line of control from Pakistan to Georgia across the Caspian.

The strategy is geo-political for oil and gas pipelines but also separate other powers in Russia, China, Iran, and India.

The strategy is happening in Africa and Central/South America too.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-10 07:43 AM
Response to Reply #24
27. Why did the Afghan regime invite Russia to invade their people's
country?
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Kringle Donating Member (411 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-10 03:31 AM
Response to Original message
26. the dancing boys of Afghanistan
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varelse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-10 12:03 PM
Response to Original message
28. Thank you for the heads up on this wonderful article
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