We Are Bradley Manning

[Joanne98]

The torture of Bradley Manning has nothing to do with a ticking bomb scenario, as in the show "24." No one is trying to obtain information which might, according to George Bush's defense of torture, "save lives." It is pure punishment before anyone has been convicted. We also know that, unfortunately, the government lies. It did in the cases of Brandon Mayfield and Louis Greco.

On May 6, 2004, Brandon Mayfield, an Oregon attorney, was arrested by the FBI in connection with the Madrid train bombings. A bag containing detonating devices, found by Spanish authorities, had fingerprints that were initially identified by the FBI as "100% verified" as Mayfield's. But in a subsequent lawsuit Judge Ann Aiken found that this information was largely "fabricated and concocted by the FBI and DOJ". Mayfield was cleared only when the Spanish authorities protested that the fingerprints were not a match.

Louis Greco spent 28 years in jail in Massachusetts for a crime he did not commit, and died behind bars in 1996 at the age of 78. His family was awarded part of a $100 million settlement last year in the largest wrongful conviction award in history. Greco was a World War II double Bronze Star winner who had been framed for murder by the FBI. Judge Nancy Gertner said that the FBI had "encouraged perjury."

With all the safeguards built into our Constitutional system of justice, innocent men are still locked up. When even these safeguards are discarded, the danger increases exponentially. The purpose of pre-trial torture through the kind of isolation now being practiced by the government is destruction of the mind and the capacity and will to defend one's self. It has already been successful in the cases of Fahad Hashmi and Jose Padilla. Now they are working on Bradley Manning.

http://www.opednews.com/articles/We-Are-Bradley-Manning-by-Ralph-Lopez-101223-728.html

[ixion]

1. The idea behind 'The Rule of Law' didn't emerge overnight... it was gleaned from centuries

of just this type of abusive behavior by the Ruling Powers That Be. To allow this concept to be discarded is to set the Rule of Law back to the medieval period.

[Smarmie Doofus]

2. K and R and LTTE sent. Irony:

PEN solicits $$$ at the end of the LTTE process thru paypal.

Aren't we boycotting them?

Shouldn't we be?

[snot]

4. +1

[xchrom]

3. recommend

[rhett o rick]

5. Torture is also a tool used by tyrants to scare the masses into submission.

I cant wait until we have a Democratic administration that ends torture.

[jaxx]

6. Are you saying Manning didn't steal data when he said he did?

Or is this just another cult rendering.

[Exilednight]

7. That depends on your

definition of theft. Is it really theft if someone gives something to the people that rightly belongs to the people?

Sadly, there is a bias by many on this board. The only reason some people condemn Manning is because it happened under Obama's watch. If this had happened under Bush's watch, everyone on here would be cheering.

[jaxx]

12. Unless someone said it's ok to take classified data, Manning was wrong.

Theft is taking what doesn't belong to you. It has nothing to do with who is president, information was taken without permission and is being used to undermine the USA. I thought it was wrong when the guy threw a shoe at dubya too....for purely safety reasons. Where the hell were the secret service to allow that to happen. Again, that goes for all presidents.

[Exilednight]

14. Prove your accusation. You state that

"information was taken without permission and is being used to undermine the USA"

How? Who has been harmed by this information? You made the accusation, now prove it with facts.

[jaxx]

15. Oh well prove it.

Having other countries diplomatic observations up for ridicule, along with ours, undermines the process. People and countries are touchy about confidentiality. Most know this, others choose to ignore it.

[Exilednight]

16. More accusations without proof. Do you have links to

proving that a foreign government official has expressed outright outrage?

The part I am really finding hard to fathom is how some on here expressed outright outrage at Bush and praise for the NYT when they published classified documents about the outright lies the Bush administration told to lie us into war, yet the Obama faithful refuse to get outraged when these cables reveal that we are carrying out a secret war in Yemen.

[jaxx]

17. According to some stuff posted here, countries are outraged at leaks.

They don't like confidential info used as political fodder. What brand of politics do you think Assange practices?

[Exilednight]

25. Yep, that's what I thought. Accusations but no proof. n/t

[treestar]

21. Eventually the government will attempt to prove the accusation

It either will be able to or it won't.

But if it can't, that would be because Bradley didn't do it. Not because he did it, but it is OK to do it.

If he is a hero for violating the law, why is there so much complaint about the consequences? Aren't taking those part of his martyrdom?

[bhikkhu]

27. Classified data that reveals war crimes and crimes against humanity

His job gave him access and knowledge to the data, at which point it was a matter of conscience whether he remained silent or revealed the information. It is absolutely rare for anyone in his position to speak out - just look at the history of WWII, which was filled with horrific behavior on all sides, and the Cold war, which was also filled with horrific behavior. For the most part, we seem to be a species with many laws to govern us, but very short on conscience when behavior can be kept secret, or blame can be laid elsewhere.

Read up on the Nuremberg trials for some background. Manning did what we executed many others for failing to do.

[treestar]

20. Classified data is something we as a people are keeping from

other countries.

this basic misunderstanding informs all of the lionization of both Bradley and Julian.

Surely we cannot have everything public. It's not in our interest for other countries to know everything we are doing. It's absurd to say we can't keep anything secret. Every country does that.

It's like people want us to be bombed or something.

[Exilednight]

26. Do you think the people have a right to know about a secret war in Yemen? n/t

[treestar]

28. What has that got to do with it?

We have a right to classified information to protect ourselves, as a nation. Julian and Bradley are in essence saying we have no right to that, should tip our hands and let other countries attack us in whatever way they could using that information. Make them your heroes? Absurd. They aren't trying to dig up information on corruption. They are just randomly spreading our information to other countries.

Are you alleging we have troops in Yemen fighting a war and none of us know about it? And that the wikileaks antics have exposed it? Boy the media is REALLY ignoring that big news!

[Exilednight]

30. What does that have to do with it, you ask? That was one of the revelations found

in the leaked cables.

"Julian and Bradley are in essence saying we have no right to that, should tip our hands and let other countries attack us in whatever way they could using that information."

And exactly what information has been used to attack us, again?


"Are you alleging we have troops in Yemen fighting a war and none of us know about it? And that the wikileaks antics have exposed it?"

Read this: http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2010/11/29/wikileaks_yemen_revelations

[truth2power]

8. Whatever Manning said he did or didn't do...

hasn't been adjudicated at this point, so we don't know what he's guilty of, do we?

Under what used to be the US Consitiution, first there's a trial and if a person is found guilty, a penalty is imposed, consonant with due process of law. It doesn't work the other way around. You don't penalize (nevermind, torture) someone BEFORE they've been found guilty. Occasionally people get that confused.

Under what used to be habeas corpus, there needed to be a judicial determination on the legality of an individual's custody. The petitioner used to be able to come before the court to inquire as to the reason for his confinement.

Oh wait....I forgot. The Consitiution is just toilet paper now. We should be grateful, I suppose, that it still has some utility. :grr:



I am Julian Assange AND Bradley Manning

[jaxx]

11. For one thing this is a military matter at the moment, people tend to forget that.

For another, most high profile suspects are held for trial so Manning in the brig is nothing new. As for the torture bit, that is over the top. I realize it sells papers or gets hits on websites, but it's not very rational.

The Constitution is never 'just toilet paper'. This country is a Constitutional Republic, we would all be better off to pay attention to that instead of going to the reactionary socialist agenda, which has no place in our government.

[truth2power]

18. "reactionary socialist agenda"? I'd be proud to be called a socialist...

That sounds like a RW talking point, to me.

Yes, I thought about this being a military matter, and I'm certainly not an expert on military law.

However, I doubt that whatever the military does in this regard is supposed to abrogate the Constitution. I'm puzzled by your use of euphenisms that attempt to minimize Manning's situation. "held for trial" and "in the brig" for instance. Makes it sound like Manning is in some Club Med, or something.

I'd like to hear from some credible ex-military person, here, who could tell me what "in the brig" usually looks like. If someone has already weighed-in on this I must have missed it. I haven't visited Bradley Manning, Jaxx, and I assume neither have you. So, neither of us knows for certain what's going on. But,in the context of everything that has gone on with the WikiLeaks issue, I choose to believe Glen Greenwald, and others, who say he's being held under inhumane conditions.

To clarify the "just toilet paper" statement, I don't think of the Constitution in that way. But some of our leaders, past and present, certainly do; or at least are treating it as such.

[txlibdem]

13. Don't listen to the freepers, you're absolutely right on all counts

When you see video proof that your government is doing something illegal, and attempting to cover it up under a top secret envelope, you have a legal and moral responsibility to act. It is the US government that is at fault here, not the messenger; there is supposed to be legal protection for whistle blowers. He was under orders to keep these secrets, under orders to become a participant in the cover-up of crimes, to become an accomplice. The oath that each and every military member takes on admission to the armed forces says you will defend the Constitution. You are also obligated to NEVER follow an illegal order. You are expected to refuse that illegal order. That is what this young man did, by exposing a great evil committed and then covered up.

Yet this courageous young man has been kept in solitary confinement for over 7 months?!? That is cruel and unusual punishment, also a crime.

Private Manning is a hero.

[truth2power]

19. Thank you, txlibdem, for your encouraging post. Well said. n/t

[txlibdem]

23. You're welcome. Perhaps the RW lurkers here on DU should join the military

Then they would know exactly what the responsibility our troops have to America. No member of the US Armed Forces swears an oath to the administration, nor to the President, nor to any other person or group; they vow to protect The Constitution of the United States of America.

[treestar]

22. And he will be tried for it

If the government can't prove it, he will be released.

Do you allege you are entitled to commit crimes, if you think you have a "good reason" and then the government should not even be able to try you for it? Or detain you pre-trial?

Yes, you are Julian as your are an anarchist.

[truth2power]

29. Excuse me, treestar, but what is the "it" that he will be tried for? ...

Were formal charges levied over the holiday and I just missed it?

I have yet to hear it formally stated, what he is allegedly guilty of?

And how long has he been incarcerated, now? I really do forget. Several months at least. Doesn't the Constitution require a speedy trial? Oh, and there's that habeas corpus thing.

[truth2power]

9. K & R. Thanks, Joanne. n/t

[NorthCarolina]

10. K&R

[midnight]

24. The training of our court officials that allow for innocent

people to be locked up because of "encouraged perjury" by law enforcement has to have serious repercussions that money alone can not wipe away...