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Mopar151 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 01:56 PM
Original message
Socialisim is good for business!
So says this month's INC magazine, in an article titled :

In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

We venture to the very heart of the hell that is Scandinavian socialism—and find out that it’s not so bad. Pricey, yes, but a good place to start and run a company. What exactly does that suggest about the link between taxes and entrepreneurship?

In 1998, Dalmo quit his job, bought a used pickup truck, and started calling on clients as an independent contractor.. He kept hiring, kept bidding, and when he looked around a decade later, he had a $44 million company with 150 employees. This is exactly the kind of pride I often hear from the CEOs I have met while working at Inc., but for one important difference: Whereas most entrepreneurs in Dalmo's position develop a retching distaste for paying taxes, Dalmo doesn't mind them much. "The tax system is good—it's fair," he tells me. "What we're doing when we are paying taxes is buying a product. So the question isn't how you pay for the product; it's the quality of the product." Dalmo likes the government's services, and he believes that he is paying a fair price.

Welcome to Norway, where business is radically transparent, militantly egalitarian, and, of course, heavily taxed. This is socialism, the sort of thing your average American CEO has nightmares about. But not Dalmo—and not most Norwegians. "The capitalist system functions well," Dalmo says. "But I'm a socialist in my bones."

But there is precious little evidence to suggest that our low taxes have done much for entrepreneurs—or even for the economy as a whole. "It's actually quite hard to say how tax policy affects the economy," says Joel Slemrod, a University of Michigan professor who served on the Council of Economic Advisers under Ronald Reagan. Slemrod says there is no statistical evidence to prove that low taxes result in economic prosperity. Some of the most prosperous countries—for instance, Denmark, Sweden, Belgium, and, yes, Norway—also have some of the highest taxes. Norway, which in 2009 had the world's highest per-capita income, avoided the brunt of the financial crisis: From 2006 to 2009, its economy grew nearly 3 percent. The American economy grew less than one-tenth of a percent during the same period. Meanwhile, countries with some of the lowest taxes in Europe, like Ireland, Iceland, and Estonia, have suffered profoundly. The first two nearly went bankrupt; Estonia, the darling of antitax groups like the Cato Institute, currently has an unemployment rate of 16 percent. Its economy shrank 14 percent in 2009.

Every Norwegian worker gets free health insurance in a system that produces longer life expectancy and lower infant mortality rates than our own. At age 67, workers get a government pension of up to 66 percent of their working income, and everyone gets free education, from nursery school through graduate school. (Amazingly, this includes colleges outside the country. Want to send your kid to Harvard? The Norwegian government will pick up most of the tab.) Disability insurance and parental leave are also extremely generous. A new mother can take 46 weeks of maternity leave at full pay—the government, not the company, picks up the tab—or 56 weeks off at 80 percent of her normal wage. A father gets 10 weeks off at full pay. These are benefits afforded to every Norwegian, regardless of income level. But it should be said that most Norwegians make about the same amount of money. In Norway, the typical starting salary for a worker with no college education is a very generous $45,000, while the starting salary for a Ph.D. is about $70,000 a year. (This makes certain kinds of industries, such as textile manufacturing, impossible; on the other hand, technology businesses are very cheap to run.) Between workers who do the same job at a given company, salaries vary little, if at all. At Wiggo Dalmo's company, everyone doing the same job makes the same salary.

LOTS more in an excellent article: http://www.inc.com/magazine/20110201/in-norway-start-ups-say-ja-to-socialism.html

My take on the article: A good social(ist) safety net is actually helpful to entrepenuers - It reduces a lot of the cash flow burden of a startup, and the higher taxes don't take away 'til you actually make money! And workers with degrees don't start out with a crushing burden of student loans, or worried sick about healthcare costs.





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frebrd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 02:17 PM
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1. K&R! n/t
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
2. ttt
Wall Street board members has been practicing socialism among their own for decades now (but they don't dare ever call it that...)
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NorthCarolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 04:50 PM
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3. That's what's possible when you invest in your people, and not in war.
Of course, you have to curtail greed as a virtue. That's the hardest part to overcome here in America.
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pnorman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 08:46 PM
Response to Original message
4. Great find!
Thanks!
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Mopar151 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. I was reading this at the Doc's office this morning!
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut now 'n then....
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mistertrickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 11:04 PM
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5. K&R nt
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Mopar151 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-11 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. My doh-ass new Senator
Just voted for "healthcare repeal", while her constituents get their pay cut every year when their health plan costs go up up up again. Many of them would pay far less - AND work for more profitable businesses - under the Finnish model.
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avaistheone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-11 03:07 AM
Response to Original message
8. Got to share this article with my conservative friends.
:)
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Diclotican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-11 07:22 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. avaistheone1
avaistheone1

Wonder what they was saying, about a corner of the world, where we manage both to give freedom and liberty for all - but also healtcare and a lot of other rights, who we look up as natural.. But who also know to be doing by a lot of hard work over many centuries.. Norway, Sweden, Denmark and Finland was poor country for many years, before we somehow managed to get it right..

A friend of me, was outright saying that Norway was blessed.... And maybe we are, as we have been in a peacefull corner of the world for more than 60 year now, and have managed to build up someting that can exist for a long time.. As long as we stay peacefull and democratic..

Diclotican
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MedicalAdmin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-11 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. I posted the article on my FB page.
I have a flame war going on right now. It's freakin wonderful. I even pulled a few birthers out of the woodworks so I can wack on their little noggins for a bit.
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Mopar151 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-04-11 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. A conservative Republican friend (no freeper, tho)
Has a great take on this: "Howcome, with all the f*&^*% taxes and g#@$#%%% insurance I pay, every beer store from here to Jersey has a can on the counter for a sick kid?"
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Overseas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-11 08:59 AM
Response to Original message
10. Recommended.
I agree. That's why I was hoping our pragmatic new president and democratic legislators would go Green 21st Century FDR. That was the most practical course for our country's longer term health.
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dbmk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-11 09:37 AM
Response to Original message
11. Worth noting:
Norway is sitting on a lot of oil and oil money. That is helping a country that is otherwise hampered by geographical obstacles.

Cost of living is pretty high and especially imported food products are expensive, compared.
pack of cigarettes is 10$ give or take. Beer is pretty pricey too.

We Danes joke about the cost of cucumbers up there(and grumble about their weird version of Danish and that the country is rightfully ours. Both sides agree that the Swedes are worse, though. :) ).

But a lot of the ideas/causes in the article can be applied to my country, Denmark too. We have weathered the economical crisis better than most. And in large part that has been due to the social safety net. The economy does not come to a halt when people still have some money in their pockets and can stay in their homes, even after they have had an employment setback or the like. And they employment setbacks will be fewer because people still have money in their pockets to keep their local businesses running. And so on.
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Mopar151 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-11 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. And also worthy of mention
There are a lot of little factors (like tax returns being public records!) that make income stratafication much less pronounced in Norway - which makes for a lot less of us vs. them and "Piss on the poor" attitudes that cripple our economy in the US.
IMHO, many of the jobs that left us for the far east had to do with the contempt for the working class by our executive class - " How dare you ask for a decent, safe place to work, and the opprutunity to educate your children? You dont deserve my doctor, or to live in my neighborhood."
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Diclotican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-11 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #11
14.  dbmk
dbmk

True, we got the gold when we hit the oil in the north sea;).. And even tho we have our geograpic obstacles, as you point out (dansker som bor på ett flatt land hvis høyeste punkt er litt over 200m over bakken:evilgrin: ) We have managed to live here for many many years...

Wel we have our jokes about Denmark too, so I guess we survive when everything goes south anyway;).. Oh, wel our language is similar to yours, but that is mostly becosue Denmark was ruling Norway for more than 400 year (434 year to be correct) and lost us to Sweden in 1814, after been on the loosing end of the Napoleon wars.. Fron 1807 we was more or less lost from Denmark... And when it came to this with "you own us".. Wel you managed to exploit Norway for everything the 400 year we was stuck with danish rule, so I guess its fair to say, that if everyone should own everyone, Norway should take a toll on Denmark - to pay back that Denmark in 1600 and 1700 lost allmost half of Norway to Sweden (Herjedalen, Båhus other places, who was once part of the Norwigian Crown, but who you messed up to Denmark...

But it is true that when everything going down, we know that we need eatch other, and is good friends for the most part... Even the swedish must admit, that we need eatch other sometimes;)... They are stuck with us, and we with them... But Denmark, Sweden and Norway have managed it better than most country out there the last couple of years... And most of it, is mostly becouse everyone KNOW that we have to work togheter... And our social safty net are also a tool to make thing safer... Even when you don't have work...

A friend of me, once told that he belived us to be blessed, and in some way I agree with him.. Good safe political reasonings, and a sound economy.. And for the most part peopole who want to do the right thing.... And a understanding that we need to work togheter to make it better for everyone of us...

That be Denmark, Sweden and Norway

Diclotican
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provis99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-11 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
15. this model only works when you have minimal ethnic diversity.
In America, it wouldn't work, because people (particularly white Southerners), would immediately call it a scheme to oppress the white man and unfairly reward blacks. It will never happen here.
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Mopar151 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-04-11 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. I would say it's more liike MORAL diversity that's the problem....
"Before you abuse, criticize, and accuse - Walk a mile in my shoes" Joe South http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoznjbKVnmw
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