Do You Prefer to Speak English? That Doesn't Make You a Racist

[drakonyx]

A Los Angeles Times story examines how shifting demographics and attitudes in Nevada have changed the political dynamics in a state that has flirted with the idea of making English the official language.

The story focuses on the city of Pahrump in Nye County, about 60 miles west of Las Vegas, where the town council voted in 2006 to make English the official language. The policy, which drew boos from the audience at the council meeting where it was adopted, was later repealed.

This article is written in English. So are all the other pieces here at The Provocation. I don't speak Spanish or German or Chinese or any other foreign language (though I did take several semesters of French in high school). I wish I did. It would allow me to communicate with more people more effectively, and that's always a good thing. But I shouldn't have to speak a foreign language. And I shouldn't have to pay for ballots to be printed in foreign languages because some people can't - or don't want to - speak English.

This doesn't make me a racist. It also doesn't make me any less progressive. In fact, the root of the term "progressive" is progress. And for anyone who enters the United States speaking a language other than English, learning this particular language means progress. Economic progress. Political progress. Academic progress. Not because English is in any way superior to any other language - indeed, it includes quite a few inane and archaic rules that make it, in some respects, inferior. But simply because it's the dominant language.

http://www.theprovocation.net/2011/08/do-you-prefer-to-speak-english-that.html

[RKP5637]

1. If I lived in another country I would expect to speak their language. Just from logic

it would seem to me sensible to use one language for communication of official business. Maybe we could use French, that would be OK with me.

[struggle4progress]

19. Or maybe Paiute? Or Shoshone? Or Walapai?

[jwirr]

45. Bingo.

[bemildred]

2. Oh good.

:popcorn:

[MineralMan]

3. Well, thank you for sharing that with us.

Good luck with your endeavors.

[izquierdista]

4. Prefer? Or insist on it?

It may not make you a racist, but it gives you points to your monolingual dumbshit badge. The insecurity of monolingual people is, at times, astounding. From the suspicion that everything said in their presence that is not in English is a disparaging comment, to the inability to switch their English to accommodate limited speakers, these not-racists have another, more distinguishing feature -- dumbth.

Long ago, before education was compulsory, the ability to learn languages was a sign of intelligence. If a child could pick up Latin at the Mass, or the language of his playmates from across the river, parents noticed and figured he could advance in life and not be just another shit shoveler. The converse was also true, a kid who spoke his native language like a bumpkin, well, he could still till the fields, but don't expect him to go far.

To Mr. Monolingual, I would say it doesn't diminish (oh, that's a big word).....it doesn't take away from you for the government to accommodate people of limited English ability. You don't know their story, how they came to be a stranger in a foreign speaking land, but I would give them the benefit of the doubt, that if they could become fluent in English, they would. Some of them are probably just like you, just barely functional in their native language, let alone capable of learning a second. Were the situation reversed and you had to leave and spend a time in their land, you would feel bad enough without the scorn of monolingual dumbshits of a different predominant tongue.

So, next time, before you go apoplectic (damn, there's another big word)....angry on them, smile and try to remember something vaguely foreign, like 'buenos dias' or 'wilkommen' or 'mon aeroglisseur est plein des anguilles' that might sound a little more welcoming to them than "Goddammit, speak English!".

[wilt the stilt]

8. Funny you say that while having a tirade.

Now I suppose you proclaim to being a great liberal. One of the greatest liberals of all time thought that as a nation English was very important and that would be Ted Sorenson.

Here is the reasoning. America has many factions and many races, creeds religions and we all come from very different places. We only have one thing that binds us and that is language. This is coming from a family where my mom didn't learn English until she started school at 5 and I never had a real conversation with my grandparents. Just a thought

[izquierdista]

10. You should have

Had a conversation with the grandparents, that is. My granny used to sit me down and go off on a tirade, of which I could understand maybe 10%. As time went on, I began to understand more and more. I'm sure she would have liked to have known more English, but back in those days, there was no money for that.

One of the things those liberals also do is to have free ESL classes for people who want it. I never hear that being proposed by the cheapskate English-only crowd.

[wilt the stilt]

12. Hard to sit down and talk chinese

My mother translated. It's not like a romance language. My mother was also the ESL secretary at Georgia state. The only realistic way to approach this is to have a timeframe for learning english and free ESL classes

[izquierdista]

16. So did mine....at times

And no, Polish is NOT close to English like a romance language is. But there are ways you learn to communicate, even with someone with limited English. When someone pulls out a chair for you and says "prosze posiedzic" it doesn't take too many times to figure it out. Names don't need translating, and gestures get the point across. Being taught how to do something also bridges the language gap, as it is explained in one language and you understand it in your first language.

What it does take is an open mind, which is all too often closed off in the English-first crowd. The U.S. is a nation of immigrants, which makes for all sorts of opportunities to learn new cultures and languages. To show resentment to people that still use their native culture while immersed in the English one only highlights one's ignorance.

[wilt the stilt]

23. one language- common thread

you really don't understand how chinese is spoken. it is a language of tones not words. you may be able to recognize words in polish. There are only tones in chinese. You ignorance is showing.

[izquierdista]

24. And little children learn it like every other language

By imitation. Your ignorance in not being able to pick things up is showing.

[wilt the stilt]

26. Okay hard to spell this out to you

Language and tones are learned by the time you are 2. As opposed to western language eastern language is tonal in structure. Western languages are spoken from the front of the mouth Eastern language is from the back of the throat.If you don't have the tones by an early stage you never can really speak it. you ignorance of language is really showing. You are right children can learn it as long as you have 2 people speaking it in the household. My father didn't speak chinese and we didn't learn it. Common issue during the fifties and especially in minority families who wanted to fit in. Most of my cousins don't speak chinese. We are all in our late fifties. My real point is as a nation we need a common thread. Nothing against learning multiple languages but as a nation we need a common thread.

[izquierdista]

30. You said it right language is LEARNED

And dumb people have a difficult time learning. As far as your assertion that it's by age 2, that is demonstrably false. The only thing native speakers get is an edge in the sounds of the language, but it's just that, an edge. People with good language learning skills, like Jodie Foster, speak an acquired language with no obvious defect. People with poor language learning skills, like Henry Kissinger, are stuck with the sounds of their first language all through adulthood.

Of the six languages I speak, my language and tone shows my history of learning them. Since I went to preschool with lots of hispanic kids, my Spanish sounds pretty standard for northern Mexico. When I speak Polish, I don't sound like a foreigner since I was raised with it. Apparently, I was paying attention when granny was talking and you weren't. Since I learned Russian in a formal school setting (from Americans trained at the Army language school), I don't have those sounds down very well. When I try to speak with Russians, they smile and ask me how long I lived in Poland because of my thick Polish accent. In my travels through France, people are curious where I'm from, because while I don't sound like a native Frenchman, they can't really place my accent and guess someplace like Quebec. When I say I'm an American, they are surprised, saying I don't sound like one.

I have no doubt that if I was plopped down in China, I would have no trouble picking up the tones (but I would have to make the effort and work at it) after a few months. And if I kept at it for a while, you would be able to tell where I learned the language, because I would also pick up the local dialect and accent.

The reason that this misconception about tones and language exists is because as we get older, we are taught that mimicry is rude. Look at Rush Limbaugh's mimicry of what he thought were Chinese tones. That was spectacularly rude because he was doing it to make fun of another ethnic group. But anyone learning Chinese, from age 1 to age 80 is going to have to go through that mimicry step and imitate those tones and have them slowly and carefully corrected by a native speaker. This is true in any language, whether it is classified as tonal or not.

When I teach ESL classes (to all native Spanish speakers), I make sure to teach the tones of English; how to make your 'v's different from your 'b's; to close your mouth when starting the 's' sound so it doesn't come out with the typical Spanish "es". And then there's the English "th", a sound few languages have and which requires regressing mentally to age 1 babbling. If you can get adults over the embarrassment of making and imitating baby sounds and have them practice tha-tha-tha-tha-tha-tha while sticking the tongue out, they pick it up pretty quick. Now, whether they will remember it and make it a habit instead of reverting to what is comfortable in their first language, that's another problem entirely.

Rather than put up tones as an excuse why you can't learn Chinese, you should put the effort into imitating what you DO hear. Here's a video on language sounds http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31zzMb3U0iY&feature=related , and while you may not be able to assimilate it in one pass, those sounds CAN be learned. Don't fall for the excuse that you had to learn it by age 2.

[wilt the stilt]

40. you really have no idea what you are talking about

and my point is not learning languages but having a common bond for a country which has no common bonds. go talk to someone who speaks cantonese and english tell me about it. and FU for dissing my parents. get a life and get off your high horse. you are the reason why liberals get a bad name.

[izquierdista]

41. But not a monolingual one...

like you.

[whathehell]

66. True...Yes, a common bond..Being officially bi-lingual didn't help Canada in that regard.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

76. But it hasn't hurt Finland (Finnish and Swedish) or Switzerland (four official

languages) or Malaysia (three major ethnic groups plus English).

The reasons for the troubles in Canada are political and economic, not linguistic.

[whathehell]

85. Their problems, in part, are linguistic and I have it on the words of Canadians themselves. n/t

[Lydia Leftcoast]

86. But the linguistic problems are a symptom of deep-seated

historical, economic, and political resentments.

In societies where one group hasn't lorded it over the other, linguistic issues are trivial (cf. Switzerland). Everyone just learns a lot of languages.

[truedelphi]

79. Wish you'd make this an OP. It explains a lot

About the learning process of Spanish, and/or any language for that matter.

I wasn't allowed to take Spanish in HS in the sixties, as I couldn't roll my R's. MY husband taught me how to do that - you basically need to pull your tongue back toward the back of your throat. But when I was a teenager, I really believed the Spanish department at the HS - that I just couldn't speak Spanish! So I took French instead.

But I still have a problem with Spanish, as the five years of French classes put a French twang into my Spanish which makes it sound pathetic and comical. And the French put an accent on very different syllables and what not, so I don't accent the right part of the Spanish word.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

49. I have studied Chinese and speak it at a tourist level, and your statement

is just plain inaccurate. Chinese DOES have words. It's not a song.

[wilt the stilt]

59. gee, my mom spoke until she died

and the slightest variation changes the meaning. I guess she didn't know what she was talking about and you know more.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

62. Yes, I know the tones change the meaning

but Chinese DOES have words.

[wilt the stilt]

63. duh!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

64. You're the one who said that Chinese doesn't have words

:shrug:

[wilt the stilt]

69. you speak chinese on a tourist level

My grandparents and my mom spoke chinese and the language doesn't have words? language is language and language has words. That is why it is a language. It was my mom who discussed how the language is spoken and where it comes from and how you change meaning. That it is spoken from the back of the mouth as opposed to the front of mouth which is how western language is spoken. She was truly fluent in both and as opposed to many of her generation who lost the true ability to speak chinese as they aged because the stopped using it on a regular basis. she spoke it until she passed away because she was the ESL administrator at GSU. But you know more than she did.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

70. Here's what YOU said:

"you really don't understand how chinese is spoken. it is a language of tones not words. you may be able to recognize words in polish. There are only tones in chinese. You ignorance is showing."

If you don't want to be misunderstood, you should learn to write more clearly.

Besides, if I speak Chinese at a tourist level and you don't speak it at all, then I do speak it better than you.

[wilt the stilt]

71. the real question is

should we be a multiple language society where there is no one means of communicating or should we be a country that one language binds us as a nation? I think since we have nothing else that binds us then we should encourage and find a means to have something that binds us as a nation because nothing else does.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

73. And nobody is saying that immigrants shouldn't learn English

But they should retain their heritage languages in addition if they want to.

My mother's family retained German for three generations, but they all spoke American English well enough so that no one could tell that they spoke German at family gatherings.

[Odin2005]

89. YOUR ignorance is showing.

Whay the hell do you mean that Chinese "doesn't have words" of course it has words. certain words can only be distinguished by tonal contrasts, but they are still words.

and "Chinese is spoken at the back of the throat"? ROFL, what ignorant nonsense.

[PhoenixAbove]

54. Excuse me. Dumb because I only speak English???

I've never been particularly good with languages. In fact, I'm so dumb I eventually rose to become an Assistant Controller of a multi-million dollar foundation. I speak math. Does that count as a second language? The arrogance here is astounding! :mad:

[cheapdate]

60. "But I shouldn't have to speak a foreign language"

writes the OP. As if the issue is English speakers being "forced" to speak a foreign language. Forced by who? You correctly picked up on the OP's pitiful whine. Good piece, Izquierdista.

[Speck Tater]

5. And the devil's advocate says...

"Encouraging immigrants to not speak English keeps them from competing for the good jobs."

Therefore, if we want to be sure that immigrants remain an oppressed minority we should make it as easy as possible for them to avoid learning English.

I know that's not going to be a popular sentiment, but the brutal fact is, by discouraging them from learning English we keep their employment options that much narrower.

As for me, I'm preparing to spend quite a bit of time in Mexico next year, and I'm already intensively studying Spanish so I won't go there looking like an ignorant fool.

So I ask you, does my enthusiasm for learning Spanish make ME a racist? Because the belief that fuels that enthusiasm is the belief that a person should make an effort to speak the language of whatever country they are in. And I am expending considerable effort to learn Spanish as a matter of common courtesy to the people of the country I will be visiting. I'm not going to demand that courtesy in return from visitors to the U.S., but nor am I'm going to condemn those who do.

[jwirr]

46. Not always true - about the good jobs. My brother was the only white

man left at the packing plant who knew how to run all the machines. He was fired because he could not talk the language of the new workers - so sometimes it works the other way around. No hard feelings - he just retired on SSA.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

50. Who is DISCOURAGING immigrants from learning English?

I've never seen anyone, left or right, tell immigrants, "By all means avoid learning English."

If you guys are so upset about immigrants who don't speak English, then lobby your legislators for free ESL classes. That's what other countries do. They offer free language classes for immigrants.

But it's just childish and paranoid to object when two immigrants speak their native language to each other in public. And I have witnessed this.

Furthermore, if you see an immigrant who does not speak English, you have no idea how long he or she has been here. S/he may have been here for two years or two weeks. You don't know.

Ironically, Americans are among the worst offenders when it comes to learning the languages of countries they're living in. I've seen articles assuring people that they don't need to learn Spanish to retire in Mexico, and when I lived in Japan, I knew Americans who had lived there for years and didn't speak more than a couple of words of Japanese. What's worse, their CHILDREN, born and raised in Japan, didn't speak the language.

[TygrBright]

74. True dat.

Anglo dude bought a motel in Taos a couple of years ago and promptly announced that any employee caught speaking Spanish on the job would be fired.

Asked why, he replied "They're saying bad things about me in Spanish and they think I won't know."

sheeeeeeeeeesh....

Caused quite a little foofooraw.

amusedly,
Bright

[drakonyx]

May not be popular with some ...

But I think it's a great argument.

[drakonyx]

53. May not be popular with some ...

But I think it's a great argument.

[dtexdem]

6. Yo no se.

Pero creo que no.

[jwirr]

7. I prefer English but I wish that I spoke German like my father did.

After WWI we were "encouraged" to speak only English. So now our whole living family only know a few words of German. Just sorry we lost the ability. This is why I do not want to force others to give up their language. And incidentally be told that you need a second language to get onto college.

[provis99]

34. German is a splendid language.

Even when you say something like "I love you" in German, it sounds like angry cursing! Ich liebe du!
But my German girlfriend had the soft Hamburg accent; German sounds more interesting when spoken by a grumpy Bavarian.
Useful language for getting mad at my sister's dogs, too: Ihr Seid Verfluchte Hunde!

[primavera]

36. Bestimmt!

I love German, and I don't find it harsh at all, at least not when it's being spoken by normal Germans. The representation of German in popular culture here always makes it sound like Hitler screaming at rallies. Dick Cheney screaming at rallies made English sound pretty awful too, but that doesn't make English an inherently harsh language, anymore than German is.

[provis99]

38. one German's opinion on language:

"I speak Spanish to God, Italian to women, French to men and German to my horse"
Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor;)

[primavera]

39. Rotfl!

Now see, that just goes to show what I'm saying: horses are extremely gentle and tender creatures!

[jwirr]

44. Damn - don't have a horse either.

[Odin2005]

91. I've been told by non-native speakers of English that they consider English harsh-sounding

Mainly because of how we pronounce our Rs and Ls with a throaty quality with the tongue pulled back.

[jwirr]

43. LOL Thanks for the I love you - now I know that. But I don't think I need

the doggie one.

[PSzymeczek]

65. Ich liebe dich.

Case matters in German. Du is nominative, dich is objective.

[Odin2005]

90. I tried to learn German and failed. Strange that a language so closely related to English is...

...so damn HARD, it kicked my ass.

One reason is that although English and German, being both Germanic Languages, share a lot of grammatical features, they use those features in very different ways. Both languages, like all Germanic languages, are able to combine verbs with prepositions to create new meanings and nuances to words (turn on, turn off, get on, get off, etc.) But in German sometimes those prepositions are attached to the verb, and sometimes they are at the end of the sentence, and the rules for that drove me nuts.

[cyberswede]

9. "And I shouldn't have to pay for ballots to be printed ..."

"And I shouldn't have to pay for ballots to be printed in foreign languages because some people can't - or don't want to - speak English"

That sounds very right-wing. People should be able to vote, whether or not they have learned English yet. I suspect most non-English speakers want to learn English - not everyone has the opportunity or resources.

[Leontius]

13. Is five years long enough to learn English?

That's how long you must have residence here to become a US citizen, the only people legally allowed to vote in the US.

[jwirr]

47. Especially when many of the Spanish speaking people helped us

elect some very good Democratic people.

[MrDiaz]

11. If i went to any other country

would I be in the right if I told them that they should have to speak my language to communicate with me?

[COLGATE4]

14. No - but you can be damned sure that, in your dealings with any

branch of their government you would be a hell of a lot happier if the forms you had to fill out for day to day life were printed in a language you understood.

[Karenina]

81. ENGLISH ALREADY *IS* LINGUA FRANCA!!!!

and for the vision-impaired...

ENGLISH ALREADY *IS* LINGUA FRANCA!!!

It would be rather impolite to TELL them, however if you got off at the main train station in most European countries looking bewildered and ASKED for help in English, you might well find yourself surrounded by teenies delighted to show off their skills! :rofl:

One of the reasons my active language sucks is EVERYBODY wanted to speak English to me early on. I had to constantly
struggle get practice time in, particularly having been in the world music scene where EVERYBODY speaks English. As a result my passive language (after a coupla decades of immersion) is quite good, I can read, (except Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung; it's a RW rag anyway. Der Spiegel works.) AND I often find myself in control of the language switch even if I'm surrounded by ESLs. It's a fascinating dynamic.

[COLGATE4]

15. Anything that says "I'm not a racist,..." is generally racist.

[Jefferson23]

17. This is one of those issue I find a puzzle. I don't understand WHY the US does not promote

more languages over all..at a very young age. That would be a win win situation imo.

Btw, this OP sucks, I'm not going to elaborate any further than that.

[frylock]

18. i don't want to pay for ballots for the blind..

fuck em if they can't read words like the rest of us who aren't sight impaired.

[struggle4progress]

20. I don't want to pay for ballots for Republicans

fuck em if they don't know how to vote properly

[AlabamaLibrul]

21. ...

:spray:

[frylock]

35. sounds good!

[smirkymonkey]

58. Touche!

:rofl:

(BTW - most of them can't read at all, in any language)

[JoeyT]

22. Preferring to speak English certainly doesn't make someone a racist.

Demanding others only speak English or that barriers be put up for people that can't speak it? Yeah, that probably makes someone a racist, or at least a xenophobe.

I prefer to speak English. I don't prefer to force others to do so. If I have to communicate with someone that can't speak it, that's what translation programs or hiring a translator is for. (I'm not monolingual, but no one can learn every language.)

[Fuddnik]

25. I don't prefer to speak English, I have to.

It's the only language I know.

[Diclotican]

27. drakonyx

drakonyx

I prefer to speak norwigian - but many times i have to use english - becouse the other party are not able to understood what I am saying.. Or in this case, read what I type..

Diclotican

[supernova]

29. Diclotican

You do just fine here with US. You are a cool dude. And I wish I knew more language than just the travellers French and German that I do now.

:hug:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

51. I was impressed with the level of English ability in Norway

Everyone except the oldest people could speak at least some English, and most of the young people were very proficient.

When I went to Norway as a teenager many years ago, I learned some Norwegian, and I needed to, because most of my older relatives didn't speak English. When I spoke to strangers, I always started by asking, "Snakker du engelsk?" and much of the time, the answer was, "Nej."

But on this trip, I stopped asking, because younger people in particular seemed almost insulted when I asked if they could speak English. Of course they could!

One of the relatives I met said that her son was starting to learn English in his first year of elementary school.

The same was true in the other Scandinavian countries.

[Diclotican]

56. Lydia Leftcoast

Lydia Leftcoast

After world war two, english was made the prefered second language in Norway, mostly becouse english was seen as the language we had to learn, becouse our alliance with UK, and then US was important to us, In fact paramont for our seurity.. And also, after world war two, the movies, and later the TV series, and films was for the most part was from US.. Even today, most of movies who are on our sinemaes, and television is made in US.. And also becouse Norway was, and still are a small country, who was trading more and more in the english speaking world.. It was important, to know the language to our trade partners..

Most norwigians know in some form english I'm not good in spoken english, even tho Im better and better as Im speaking with english speaking pepole on skype all the time.. But I do have the voculuar in as I read a lot of english.. Many of my hobbies tend to be writen in english, so I just need to know it...

Old pepole is a whole another case, many of the older generations, are more fluent in german, who was the prefered second language to know, from the 1890s to after world war two. Frence was also prefered over english, but after world war two, many was switching to english, and by our schools most the younger generations, learned english early one.. When I was young, they learned it from 3 grade, but today they learn it all the way from 1 grade..

And younger pepole know english by heart, many have also been in english speaking countries, or even lived abroad from time to time.. Norway is maybe a small country, but we travel a lot, as our old vikings ancestors once did, even tho we dosent plunder as the vikings did then;) But for the most part, the younger generations, know english as well as many english speaking do.. And many is in fact even fluent in english (not me, I hear out as a norwigian speaking english:P)

I hope you had a great time in Norway, when you was here.. Even tho you also experienced the horror of 22 of july, I really hope you enjoyed your stay in Norway - and wil came back to norway too.

Dicotican

[Lydia Leftcoast]

57. Tusen takk

I did enjoy my visit to Norway, and I do plan to come back, especially to see the far north. My paternal grandmother (who died before my parents even met) came from Mosjøen, and some of the relatives who were at the reunion live there, too.

I really appreciated the reaction of the Norwegian people to the events of July 22. There was no talk of vengeance, only sorrow and affirmations of solidarity.

I also thought the landscape was beautiful. The whole country should be a national park!

[Odin2005]

88. I'll sometimes talk to my Norwegian relatives on Skype and they speak English as good as...

...any native English speaker. And they are country folks from Hornindal.

[supernova]

28. As a former ESL instructor

at the community college level, I will repeat what I have said many times about this subject.

How long does it take to learn English as a Second Language? A "Second Language" is a language one learns because one is living in the environment where it is the dominant language.

How long depends on a number of factors:

How much schooling does the person have?

If you have to learn how to learn, study habits and so on, it will take longer. A great many of my students didn't finish grammar school in their home countries. They had to learn how to study along with learning a new langauge.

How old are they? Generally speaking the younger you are, the easier it is. Kids don't have filters about what's good or proper. And it can become a game with their new friends.

Do they have a talent for languages in the first place?

Some of my students, ESL was their fourth, fifth, or sixth language. Some people collect 'em like trading cards.

Are they gregarious or socially retiring?

The more outgoing will find it easier to pick up just being out and about, much like the kids.

Having said all that, the rule of thumb, is even with a reasonably achieved academic background (high school or better) It can take up to SEVEN YEARS to become fully fluent in a second language. "Fully fluent" here means being able to read and understand the implications of all official documents, legal papers, The county's most complex news and information sources. Your bank and insurance statements, and contracts without the aid of a translator.

As an example English-firsters, try thinking about reading The Economist in say Norwegian. And not only read the Economist, but be able to summarize the article and give your opinion on it to your friend or work colleague and debate with him about it.

As you can see it's not so unsual to have a first generation family here where the grandparents don't have a clue. Mom and Dad struggle with the help of the kids. They may or may not eventually get it. They kids are fluent in both languages, but may lose the home country language over time.

Also, this checkmates any debate about English only in this country. Follow the link and enjoy!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6999175&mesg_id=6999482

[Blue_Tires]

32. excellent points...

[cyberswede]

33. I wish I could rec this reply.

Thank you for explaining! :hi:

[izquierdista]

48. Fully fluent?

By your definition, a lot of Tea Partiers are not "fully fluent" in their only language. These dumbshits can barely understand the instruction booklet that comes with their new kitchen appliance, have no idea how to balance their monthly bank statement, and rely on FOX to tell them what their opinion is on news and information.

On the contrary, an educated Italian may be able to understand the French version of 'The Economist', and summarize the article and give an opinion on it, without claiming to be "fully fluent' in French.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

52. As a former foreign language instructor, I agree with everything you've said

Americans both over-estimate the difficulty of learning a foreign language, as if it would be a horrible strain for them to learn some basic survival phrases, and under-estimate the difficulty, as if immigrants should speak English instantly upon arrival, or as if two years should be enough to achieve full proficiency.

[TygrBright]

75. I believe that English has one of the most complex vocabulary structures...

...among all the world's major languages. A Brazilian friend of mine told me that English has "too many words to learn."

And it's true that most of the languages I have any familiarity with get far more out of fewer words than English. They use one word with case changes or other modifications, plus context, to mean several different things. Or, like German, they just smoosh together two or more words with known roots to make a new word (I LOVE German portmanteau words... some of them are gorgeous, some hilarious, some baffling, but always interesting...)

English also has an extremely large repertoire of metaphor, simile, idiomatic expressions, colloquialisms and dialect borrowings that have entered "mainstream" conversational English. I am always impressed and respectful of adults who take on the chore of learning English as a second language and manage to communicate effectively.

In July I had visitors from Morocco who are native Tashelhayt (Berber) speakers. The younger woman (19 years old) had been studying English in school for more than seven years. She spoke quiet fluently but was constantly stopping to ask for a word or ask what some expression or word I used was. The other woman (27 years old) had been trying to learn in conversation with Peace Corps volunteers, and occasional adult-learning classes from the government, and she understood a fair amount but could speak very little. However, she could also (in addition to Tashelhayt) speak Moroccan Arabic and some French. She is not a scholar or highly educated woman, just a weaver from a rural village, but she felt it was worth learning ALL the languages most commonly spoken in her country.

I've been trying to learn enough Spanglish to get by in el Norte for six years, now, and have barely enough to recognize common expressions and apply them (mostly) in the correct context. And yes, Spanglish is a language. For example, in Spanish, when giving the correct response to the polite greeting "como esta'?" one would say "muy bien" or "muy bien, gracias" if you were being formal. In el Norte Spanglish the correct response is "bueno, bueno," which sounds ridiculous to Spanish speakers. My Pimsleur Spanish courses were only so useful...

Maybe by the time I've been here another twenty years I will have learned the language.

hopefully,
Bright

[Karenina]

82. Actually, I think phrasal verbs are the biggest nightmare!

There are just. so. many. of them AND so many have multiple meanings...

Oh, those compound nouns! :rofl: I like to make them up but THERE ARE STRICT RULES (which I will never quite grasp) so of course they sound like nonsense to native speakers. I do my "damsel in distress" WOIK WIT ME HEAH routine which always produces peals of laughter.

English is very elastic. ESLers can slap whatever relevant words they can find and a native speaker WILL most likely be able to decode it. A Brazilian friend was a source of constant entertainment with the spot on references she pulled from thin air. We could not NOT understand her! She was absolutely HILARIOUS!

Deutsch doesn't work like that and when it DOES it makes the papers! Case in point:

Some years back a (Portugese, I think) soccer coach, after a particularly distressing game hollered ICH HAB' FERTIG!
The next day it was THE headline and is now used by native speakers to describe that emotional state. Funny how language works, eh?

I speak D'English. :hi:

[Odin2005]

92. Native Spanish speakers tell me that Phrasal Verbs are the toughest thing about English.

English phrasal verbs, and their relative, German separable verbs, are freakish linguistic oddities that are a preservation of Proto-Indo-European's not having a distinction between adverbs and prepositions. They are a PITA to learn for non-native speakers. My attempt to learn German was shipwrecked on the sharp rocks of German's separable verbs.

[drakonyx]

80. Some excellent information

Thanks!

[ATLdemocrat]

31. The schools should teach multiple languages as early as possible

The older one gets, the harder it is to learn a whole new language. I think that has a lot to do with people wanting everything in English only.

[primavera]

37. Personally, I wish I were Swiss and spoke several languages natively

Why wouldn't someone want to be gifted with multiple languages?

[MountainLaurel]

42. Because they like being ignorant

And see education as a threat to the status quo, which usually involved sheeple who can't think for themselves.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

55. And if Americans spoke other languages, they might be tempted to travel overseas,

interact with local people, and find out that America is NOT "the greatest country in the world."

[whathehell]

67. The Swiss had to become multi-lingual because of their geographic/political situation

Don't get me wrong...I think it's great to speak more than one

language, and I've studied a couple myself, it just that

you'd be wrong in thinking America is alone in speaking mainly one language.

A British friend told me it's the same in the UK...When people

are not "bordering" other countries (and the threats that may accompany that situation)

they are less inclined to become multilingual.

[primavera]

68. Certainly

I just think the Swiss are fortunate to be... shall we say, blessed with a geographical situation that encourages multilingualism.

[cheapdate]

61. "But I shouldn't have to speak a foreign language"

Who's forcing you too speak a foreign language?

[MissMillie]

72. I worked at a college for many years

lots of the foreign students can speak 3 or 4 languages before they leave high school.

I wish our public school system could do that for our students.

[Chan790]

77. No, pero esta un idiota.

Debe aprender el español, sino que será la lengua principal de los USA (EE.UU.) occidentales dentro de 20 años.

Then your entire argument will be a meaningless load of crap.

[Odin2005]

93. +1,000,000,000,000,000,000! Este post me gusta!

[roody]

78. I hope they called Nevada "snowed" in their English-only moments.

[yellowcanine]

83. Preferring to speak English does not make one a racist but demanding that ballots only be in

English is a different kettle of fish. If someone has the right to vote would we rather they vote in an informed way or struggle with a language they are not so good at? Particularly for ballot questions it is more important to me that they understand exactly what they are voting for.

[yellowcanine]

84. Title is misleading. It is not just about "preferring to speak English".

He also talks about objecting to printing ballots in Spanish. That is something different.
Preferring to speak English is not the same as objecting to providing information in other languages. These are Right Wing talking points similar to the gay marriage debate. Somehow a gay person getting married takes away from my heterosexual marriage.

[BigDemVoter]

87. Just from your title. . .

Is anybody telling you that you have to speak anything but English?