NYTimes: Without a Doubt

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

Ron Suskind. Bush. We already know it, but do we know that things are really this...off the rails?

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/17/magazine/17BUSH.html?pagewanted=1&oref=login

[AlinPA]

1. I'm still shaking my head. We MUST win this election. The guy is

dangerous, and his supporters are just as dangerous.

[Quetzal]

2. I just read it - quite a long read - approx. 30 minutes

Some of the most chilling paragraphs out of it

Forty democratic senators were gathered for a lunch in March just off the Senate floor. I was there as a guest speaker. Joe Biden was telling a story, a story about the president. ''I was in the Oval Office a few months after we swept into Baghdad,'' he began, ''and I was telling the president of my many concerns'' -- concerns about growing problems winning the peace, the explosive mix of Shiite and Sunni, the disbanding of the Iraqi Army and problems securing the oil fields. Bush, Biden recalled, just looked at him, unflappably sure that the United States was on the right course and that all was well. '''Mr. President,' I finally said, 'How can you be so sure when you know you don't know the facts?'''

more...

In the summer of 2002, after I had written an article in Esquire that the White House didn't like about Bush's former communications director, Karen Hughes, I had a meeting with a senior adviser to Bush. He expressed the White House's displeasure, and then he told me something that at the time I didn't fully comprehend -- but which I now believe gets to the very heart of the Bush presidency.

The aide said that guys like me were ''in what we call the reality-based community,'' which he defined as people who ''believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.'' I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. ''That's not the way the world really works anymore,'' he continued. ''We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.''

more...

And for those who don't get it? That was explained to me in late 2002 by Mark McKinnon, a longtime senior media adviser to Bush, who now runs his own consulting firm and helps the president. He started by challenging me. ''You think he's an idiot, don't you?'' I said, no, I didn't. ''No, you do, all of you do, up and down the West Coast, the East Coast, a few blocks in southern Manhattan called Wall Street. Let me clue you in. We don't care. You see, you're outnumbered 2 to 1 by folks in the big, wide middle of America, busy working people who don't read The New York Times or Washington Post or The L.A. Times. And you know what they like? They like the way he walks and the way he points, the way he exudes confidence. They have faith in him. And when you attack him for his malaprops, his jumbled syntax, it's good for us. Because you know what those folks don't like? They don't like you!'' In this instance, the final ''you,'' of course, meant the entire reality-based community.

[Maccagirl]

4. Thanks for posting this

It is so important. I happen to be one of those busy people who don't always have time to read the Times or the Post. Unfortunately for the Bushies, I don't have "faith" in him and will be casting my ballot for John Forbes Kerry.

[havocmom]

8. Mark McKinnon's 2002 view of folks in the middle of America is outdated

They do not love the naked emperor anymore in the heartland.

So long as we watch the voting and the counting, Mr. Mckinnon is gonna find 'reality' up his ass and chewing on his intestines. My guess is they are dealing with reality of there wouldn't be so much effort into: shoving BBV down voters' throats, orchestrated efforts to register people and destroy the cards for Dems, purge voter rolls wantonly, and so on.

Yeah, they are a very scary bunch. They use the lessons Newt taught. Newt got them from Herring Goebbels who used the techniques well to sell the Nazi plans to the people of Germany all those years ago. Nothing new about their approach at all. But very frightening that enough people ignore history's lessons, making this vile, old method viable still.

[izzie]

13. Oh yes this was very scary. It is how I have talked to every one.

We just can not go back to this type of Govt. My God we had a war to get rid of all this.

[izzie]

16. Do you think Bush would take down the USA like Hitler did Germany?

I get the feeling he would he seem to think he is so right about every thing.

[Spiffarino]

37. If he's re-elected, there will be no stopping him

Bush has a lot of things wrong with him, but I think on the whole he is not necessarily evil, he's just an opportunistic patrician who works for his own class. However, the people who surround him closely have a very dark agenda of U.S. world domination through military means.

Bush doesn't know enough about the world to realize how incredibly insane the PNAC agenda is, so he rubber stamps everything Cheney, Rummy, and Wolfie say he should do. Its philosophy is far more benign than the Third Reich, but it may be no less dangerous in the end.

[Raster]

20. "...reality-based community." OMSFJ!!!

[salin]

3. frightening

so what does this man with his messianic view and what do his followers do if/when they lose? I don't mean the Arkansas Project types -but the large policitized evangelical right who have bought into the divine right view of bush as president?

[saracat]

5. This is totally scary!

[Maeve]

6. I admit to being afraid of all True Believers

Meaning "those who know no doubt in their own rightness". Don't confuse him with the facts, his mind is made up.

And to put one in a position to take the whole world to Armeggeddon... :scared:

[Political_Junkie]

7. Very scary article.

We gotta win this thing...

[KTM]

9. Ugh

"...Of the fundies, by the fundies, and for the fundies."

This man is off his rocker, lost his marbles, gone fishing... That the people of our nation agree (yearn even) to be "lead" by this insane man is a sad testament to the idiocy we breed.

[neverforget]

10. Have you accepted George W Bush as your Lord and Savior?

:eyes: :puke: These people are nuts.

[teryang]

11. "The very heart of the (b)ush presidency"

<In the summer of 2002, after I had written an article in Esquire that the White House didn't like about Bush's former communications director, Karen Hughes, I had a meeting with a senior adviser to Bush. He expressed the White House's displeasure, and then he told me something that at the time I didn't fully comprehend -- but which I now believe gets to the very heart of the Bush presidency.

The aide said that guys like me were ''in what we call the reality-based community,'' which he defined as people who ''believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.'' I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. ''That's not the way the world really works anymore,'' he continued. ''We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.'' <snip>

comment: Rheinhard Heydrich and Himmler fevertly applied this principle.

This is based upon the underlying assumption of total power, that the outcome of events is within the control of actor rather than the responses of the groups who react to those decisions. Thus the inevitable outcome is the drive to destroy those groups and thereby render their individual constituents powerless (or dead). Thus traditional institutions (Congress, the Bill of Rights (the Courts), and traditional government organizations) have been relentlessly undermined.

<''If you operate in a certain way -- by saying this is how I want to justify what I've already decided to do, and I don't care how you pull it off -- you guarantee that you'll get faulty, one-sided information,''>

Rejection of the reality based principle is called obscurantism. It is embraced by all dictatorships. It is the concomitant phenomenom accompanying the rise of totalitarism.

[acmavm]

12. I don't claim to be the most intelligent person in the world, but what I

just read, and what I've observed in bush* is not necessarily 'faith' but more hubris. Here's the definition: Overbearing pride or presumption; arrogance.

That is what I see in bush*. I don't see any of the commonly accepted traits of faith. I just see a man who has mental problems and a messianic complex. I do believe that bush* thinks he is guided by a 'higher power' but I KNOW that he doesn't have the faintest clue of what the message of Christ is. He scares me because although people say he is intelligent, his intellect is so limited and biased and bigoted. And his answer to everything that he doesn't believe in is violence. How in the world do you equate that concept with 'faith' as it is commonly defined? No where, in and of the teachings of Christ is violence condoned as a method of dealing with people. bush* either got some seriouly bad advice from Billy Graham or he has succumbed to the horrible concept that power corrupts, but absolute power corrupts absolutely.

This is a man who never had to think for himself, ever. And when he was appointed by the Supreme Court to the highest office in the land, he saw that as a mandate from God rather than a criminal conspiracy to subvert the very premise that made brought this country what it to greatness, which was the governance of this country by the rules of the Constitution.

The man that was described in this article was given way too much credit. He is not the 'crusader' for God that he thinks he is. He's more the power for power's sake panderer to his family and supporters, those that play up to him and make him feel like he's running the show, that he's the 'savior' of this nation. He surrounds himself with people who tell him what he wants to hear, but also feed him a heavy dose of what they want him to do. And they do it successfully because they know his weakness. His ego. During the debates you could see how surprised and offended he was every time Kerry said something that contradicted the 'gospel according to george'. His indignation and surprise made him react physically, he couldn't control his emotions or his response even in the last debate.

Short and sweet, what we are dealing with is a man who is mentally off his rocker. A guy who hasn't got a clue what the true meaning of Chrisitanity is. A guy who is so lazy intellectually that he's easily manipulated. Because a guy of real faith wouldn't allow the the scheming, lying, sneaky, behavior of the people who support him. The bombing and killing of civilians wouldn't be seen as a legitimate and acceptable way of dealing with a nation of people that you had no justification of attacking in the first place. His nutzoid faith in himself and his beliefs caused us to attack a country without justification and kill thousands of innocent people. A man of the type of faith that he pretends to have, upon finding out that the basis for the war he started was untrue, would have the courage and integrity to look inside himself and admit to that he was wrong. This guy doesn't have the moral fibre to do that. It's not faith in God, it's faith in some crazy delusion that he's the 'instrument' of God that motivates this guy.

[alisongiggles1960]

30. Very well said. These are strange days indeed.

[Paradise]

14. To answer your question...

Yes, many of us KNOW! The frightening part is that man of us DO NOT!

[Paradise]

15. BTW, Thank you. Wouldn't have read it, if you hadn't posted it. n/t

[Memekiller]

17. We live in a "reality-based community."

Every time I accuse this administration of not admitting reality, I thought I sounded partisan and shrill. But they MOCK reality. I can't believe they said that. How do you mock people who believe in reality?

[savistocate]

38. An aide, one of his lackey sycophants

buying fishing poles, saying to Suskind --"That's not the way the world really works anymore, we're an empire now ---etc"

The disconnect --from the foundation of America, of a democracy, is clear..is monstrous grotesque.

[elf]

18. kick for later

[Logansquare]

19. "In your guts, you know he's nuts. "

Time to resurrect that Goldwater era slogan. The scary thing is that Goldwater seems like a beacon of enlightenment compared to this guy.

[George_S]

21. Too long to be effective

Few who don't want to hear it will read it. but there are some quoteables:

''I'm happy he's certain of victory and that he's ready to burst forth into his second term, but it all makes me a little nervous. There are a lot of big things that he's planning to do domestically, and who knows what countries we might invade or what might happen in Iraq. But when it gets complex, he seems to turn to prayer or God rather than digging in and thinking things through. What's that line? -- the devil's in the details. If you don't go after that devil, he'll come after you.''

[funnymanpants]

22. Fucking NY Times I can't log on

bugmenot.com doesn't work. Fuck them.

[muriel_volestrangler]

23. Then make something up and create an ID with them

be inventive - enjoy yourself.

[glitch]

24. Reality always has the last laugh - Always

These guys think they're brave new innovators, their simple binary minds don't even grasp that their thinking is old and proven failed, time and again.
They have no concept of dynamic systems. The sad question is, while we know they'll fail, can we get them to fail alone, without their taking our real world down with them?

I saw a bumpersticker that sums all this up: "Evolve Already"

[Dudley_DUright]

25. What a dumbass

This is a Yale history major confusing Switzerland and Sweden and their respective military and neutrality stances. Worst. President. Ever.

[Gin]

26. this says it all...from day one....they kept the US in chaos...and this

attitude was behind it.


''We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.''

[puddycat]

27. Reading this, I get the feeling we are falling into a deep deep cavern

This feeling ties into the queasy feeling I've had deep in my gut since I realized how evil the Bush administration was. I couldn't get a handle on how to explain it, but now I know--its the sensation of falling. I hope and pray that Kerry wins, but he better have a pretty big parachute, because our democracy is in freefall.

[wabeewoman]

28. Thanks for posting

this. I read it all and it is scary shit! His plan to install 4 supreme court judges, dismantle social security, increase faith based programs(code for cutting all government safety programs)change the tax structure. If he succeeds at all of this, America as we know it will no longer exist.

[kskiska]

33. That's what Krugman has been telling us.

If he gets another 4 years we won't even recognize this place anymore.

[bloom]

29. This convinced me that Bush does NOT believe in himself...

His confidence in himself is so shakey that he cannot face facts or opinions. This does not square with believing you are doing God's will. IMO

I think the writer might want people to believe that he believes that he has God behind him - but I don't think so. It is sad that so many of his "followers" believe that. That is the scary thing.


From the conclusion:

"''Faith can cut in so many ways,'' he (Jim Wallis) said. ''If you're penitent and not triumphal, it can move us to repentance and accountability and help us reach for something higher than ourselves. That can be a powerful thing, a thing that moves us beyond politics as usual, like Martin Luther King did. But when it's designed to certify our righteousness -- that can be a dangerous thing. Then it pushes self-criticism aside. There's no reflection.

''Where people often get lost is on this very point,'' he said after a moment of thought. ''Real faith, you see, leads us to deeper reflection and not -- not ever -- to the thing we as humans so very much want.''

And what is that?

''Easy certainty.''

[Laelth]

31. Wow!

I don't know if I should thank you for bringing that to my attention or not. Very frightening--mostly because it explains a lot.

-Laelth

This is highly recommended reading.

Reprinted HERE for those who don't want to give NYT your e-mail address. The essay in question is the second entry in this thread.

[mps]

32. Ron Suskind's NYT Article is very Depressing!

I say depressing, because I don't know how one can campaign against a President or any leader who thinks, because he is so beholden to God for his redemption, that God will always show him the truth and therefore, not now fail him as he makes life and death decisions. You read in this article about average people who say that Bush is God's President.

What person or what event can counter this blind faith that you have a feeling that God is watching over you and approves of everything you are doing without question? Where's the humility, the strength in asking someone else for help, the belief that human beings have frailties and that questioning is not a weakness?

Maybe someone else knows the answer to this!

[johallmark]

34. What every "Drunk" knows

I have just read Ron Susskind's article in the Times
concerning Bush's faith and am convinced that everyone except
the "drunks" of the world have missed the point of
explaining Bush's cackling and manic behavior. Watching all
the explanations of Bush's falling around the White House
eating corn chips or falling off his bike twice, I sometimes
wonder if he hasn't fallen "off the wagon".

I am not an alcoholic, but was married to a 42 year sober
member of A.A. before his death. He would tell you that while
your faith is an important part of staying sober, there are 11
other steps that have to be taken to remain sane and stay
sober.  Reading Joe Biden's assessment of Bush is a clear
indication of someone not working these steps.  Mr. Biden
stated, ''Most successful people are good at identifying, very
early, their strengths and weaknesses, at knowing themselves.
For most of us average Joes, that meant we've relied on
strengths but had to work on our weakness -- to lift them to
adequacy -- otherwise they might bring us down. 

I wish my humble opinions were more eloquent but one thing I
do know, I do not want a 'white knuckle" drunk with the
power to send our young people on a suicide mission to Iraqi
or to have his hand on our nuclear capabilities.

And to all the pundits and news people, just simply ask a
"drunk" to explain Bush and his terrible errors of
judgment.

[newyawker99]

35. Hi johallmark!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[jwirr]

39. For some of bushies followers

the battle would be lost as far as political action is concerned if and when we can fill the Supreme Court with moderate and liberal judges who cannot be swayed by their anti-this and anti-that ideas. We would also go a long way to eliminating some of their followers if we can straighten out the economic mess in this country. Also I would like to take on the less fundie churches such as the Lutherans and show them just how close they came to destroying our nation. I think there are many things we can do but they are not going to be easy.

[LibertyorDeath]

36. A must read!

:kick: :kick: :kick: :kick:

[Kolesar]

40. The skeptic in me

Suskind pulled together so many threads with that article.

There is so much to absorb there. The skeptic in me thought this part was significant:

I learned something here: "A few months later, on Feb. 1, 2002, Jim Wallis of the Sojourners stood in the Roosevelt Room for the introduction of Jim Towey as head of the president's faith-based and community initiative. John DiIulio, the original head, had left the job feeling that the initiative was not about ''compassionate conservatism,'' as originally promised, but rather a political giveaway to the Christian right, a way to consolidate and energize that part of the base. "

''When I was first with Bush in Austin, what I saw was a self-help Methodist, very open, seeking,'' Wallis says now. ''What I started to see at this point was the man that would emerge over the next year -- a messianic American Calvinist. He doesn't want to hear from anyone who doubts him.''

[CitizenRob]

41. What I felt was the most telling paragraph...

But as the hour passed, Bush kept coming back to the thing most on his mind: his second term.

''I'm going to come out strong after my swearing in,'' Bush said, ''with fundamental tax reform, tort reform, privatizing of Social Security.'' The victories he expects in November, he said, will give us ''two years, at least, until the next midterm. We have to move quickly, because after that I'll be quacking like a duck.'' -- Source: Page 10 NY Times piece.



I'll be quaking like a duck? I guess that means after he wins a second term he is going to drop the disguise as a compasionate conservative, and start the real work he didn't dare do during his first adminisration. This is frightening. America is in real trouble.

[RedEarth]

42. this is a must read for everyone