Kerry Won

[dweller]

Greg Palast

November 04, 2004

Bush won Ohio by 136,483 votes. Typically in the United States, about 3 percent of votes cast are
voided—known as “spoilage” in election jargon—because the ballots cast are inconclusive. Palast’s
investigation suggests that if Ohio’s discarded ballots were counted, Kerry would have won the state. Today
the Cleveland Plain Dealer suggests the same —reporting there are a total of 247,672 votes not counted in
Ohio, if you add the 92,672 discarded votes plus the 155,000 provisional ballots.

Greg Palast, contributing editor to Harper's magazine, investigated the manipulation of the vote for BBC
Television's Newsnight. The documentary, "Bush Family Fortunes," based on his New York Times bestseller,
The Best Democracy Money Can Buy, has been released this month on DVD .

Kerry won. Here's the facts.

I know you don't want to hear it. You can't face one more hung chad. But I don't have a choice. As a journalist
examining that messy sausage called American democracy, it's my job to tell you who got the most votes in
the deciding states. Tuesday, in Ohio and New Mexico, it was John Kerry.

Most voters in Ohio thought they were voting for Kerry. CNN's exit poll showed Kerry beating Bush among
Ohio women by 53 percent to 47 percent. Kerry also defeated Bush among Ohio's male voters 51 percent to
49 percent. Unless a third gender voted in Ohio, Kerry took the state.

more here


dp

[Massacure]

1. Why would Ohio just throw the ballots out?

I'm pretty sure they counted all of them, and they are continueing with provisional ballots.

Just because he says Kerry won doesn't make it so. Kinda like Bush standing up on the aircraft carrier saying "Mission Acomplished." I'd like to see some hard proof if I am wrong.

[Free2BMe]

2. Concession does not mean losing..it means the process

continues and if fraud is found ...even if victory is not changed...there is a legal process to be followed...if in Florida as I have heard the president was aware ...impeachment is the least of the penalties...If it is not true..then everyone will know for sure at least.

[MercutioATC]

6. It DOES mean surrendering the right to challenge results.

However, the votes WILL all be counted.

[Free2BMe]

8. Is should be done on behalf of JK...Hope he is available to accept the WH

at the end of the day.

[Almost_there]

36. It doesn't mean he surrenders anything.

States are the final arbiters of this process, and they must follow their own state laws as to the counting procedure. Concessions simply means that the loser isn't going to actively pursue the presidency any longer, it doesn't mean he can't or won't challenge anything legally. There is no "legal" concession, it was simply a speach, nothing more, nothing less. Just a "let's move on" speach. However, the fight continues, but, he isn't sending waves of lawyers to Ohio to fight, however, the votes must be counted, and if irregularites pop up, the election is FAR from certified and over.

As to the theories about how so many votes came out for Bush, well, I have a simple one. Bush got more votes because he had a simpler, dumber message. Not that the American public is dumb, they are not. Anyone that thinks differently is being Naive to the point of dangerous. The nameless, faceless masses are nameless and faceless, and act in a way that is unpredictable and confusing, but, to think that 59,000,000 people are morons, and 55,500,000 are genuises is simply wrong. Come on, be rational about this. Toss around all the conspiracy theories, Karl Rove was out there with Diebold, even in states like Ohio that use punch cards, or Florida with Jeb eating chads in the back room, whatever, the truth is that Kerry lost by 3.5 million votes, and no matter how you slice it, the American public has spoken. Even if Ohio somehow goes to Kerry (which I think it beyond a pipe dream, more like a crack pipe dream) the truth is that Bush would have the popular vote by call it 3.25 million votes, and Kerry would be president over a senate tilted heavily towards the red, and a congress the same. Those two houses should be enough to convince people that maybe Kerry didn't get his message across well enough, or Bush used subliminal advertising, whatever, but, I'm bored to death with "Bush stole this, Rove shoots little babies, Kerry actually won if you assume he got 93% of the provisional ballots and none are thrown out". I am dealing with this and facing facts. We lost the Presidency, we lost 4 seats in the Senate and 11 in the house. Maybe it is time to focus on 2 years from now, and not be so damn bitter. By sitting here claiming Bush stole this election, that the machines were rigged, that dead people voted for Bush, that voters were suppressed, it only discredits the Democrat party, it doesn't strengthen and unify us for 2006, when we have to get at least 2 seats back in Senate and 5 back in congress to start making in roads, or otherwise, SCOTUS will be right for a LONG LONG time to come, and THEN we'll have things to talk about.

~Almost

~Almost

[merliecurlie]

42. bitter?

I think many things...as we all do. No, not everyone is dumb, which makes it scarier. Some are smart and hysterical...now I know that I'm bordering lunacy but...but lying down and giving a "mandate" IS in fact a little dumb. Voters did this in the election...went to sleep, didn't do research, and handed over an election that overnight has miraculously turned into another delusion called a "mandate." Add in addition to Ohio, fraud is documented in New Mexico and Nevada (definitely documented) and what we get is...oh, maybe like the American Indians in California with King Arnold's prop 66 tornado. We need to encourage fact-finding and truth, and stop blaming ourselves and the party for miscalucations based upon primal fear. Besides, people need something constructive to do with their energies before they go running into the streets...and something tells me you are smart enough to help, but understandably, you are tired. Go to sleep and the rest of us will tell you what we found out in the morning :)

[library_max]

52. "It doesn't strengthen us and unify us for 2006?"

In my personal opinion, you aren't getting it. They did steal it. The exit polls in Ohio and Florida demonstrate this. We already have anecdotal evidence of vote fraud in Ohio - 4,234 Bush votes from a precinct with about 650 voters in it (BBV). Voter purges were conducted discriminatorily in Florida and other places. Many, many Democrats in Florida and Ohio filled out provisional or absentee ballots specifically to avoid BBV, so that their votes would be on paper, tangible. What was their reward? The election was called and decided before the absentee and provisional ballots were even opened, much less counted. And both states have Republican governors and Secretaries of State who are unabashed Bush supporters. Remember how fair and respectful of the process and the law Kathy Harris was in 2000? Of course votes will be dumped, or hidden, or whatever it takes to preserve Bush's "victory."

And the thing here is, now that they've done it and got away with it, they'll do it again. The Republicans are in power for as long as they want to be. We are now a one-party state, like Mexico under the PRI. It doesn't make a damn bit of difference how strong and united we think we are in 2006, we will lose. They own the process and all the mechanisms for reforming or policing the process.

[Amigust]

48. As they were in Florida 2000 ? n/t

[madfloridian]

5. Please tell me how you are so sure.

They looked the other in Florida in 2000, do some research. Florida had been systematically just tossing away up to 12% of votes to make the tallies work. For many years.

If you are pretty sure, how would you know? Blackwell said he was not worried, Katherine Harris went to congress. Have you heard that guy talk?

[Dancing_Dave]

7. REPUBLICAN OFFICIALS DELIBERATELY FALSIFIED THE ELECTION

There was a massive campaign to keep Democrats from voting, voting machines with no security against fraud were used and so on. As the article says, MOST PEOPLE OHIO THOUGHT THEY WERE VOTING FOR KERRY.

This is a very real violation of electoral laws that we need to investigate. The was a co-ordinated national campaign of fraud, especially focussed on states considered likely to be close, Ohio, Florida, New Mexico, Colorado, Nevada, etc.

Greg Palast and others uncovered this fraud campaign before the election even happened. Time has proven them correct: the disenfrachizement of Democrats occured on a massive scale. We need to bring those who carried out this illegal scam to justice!

[displacedtexan]

9. Whom do you trust? Palast or Rove?

Simple question.

[philaguy]

19. Whom Do I Trust?

Palast or Rove?

Can I say "neither"? I've seen both of them say things that I consider to be over-the-top.

The truth, whatever it may be, is the truth. It really doesn't matter to me who says it. What matters is who can prove it.

[mrfrapp]

45. Palast

What has Palast said in the past that has been over-the-top? Everything I've ever heard him say has been sourced and referenced.

[Kolesar]

3. Palast says the "spoiled ballots" go in the dumpster

That does not sound right. If there are two chads punched out, or a hanging chad that does not read, it is just a spoiled vote. That does not mean the whole card is dumped.

These cards could be read manually.

[LibDemAlways]

20. I heard Palast discuss this

this morning on Pacifica Radio KPFK in LA. He called Blackwell's office yesterday and asked for the under and over vote tallies. They hung up on him twice. Spoiled ballots are not going to be read and counted unless and until someone formally challenges the results.

[Uber Llama]

26. It depends

In black counties, the policy is to throw the ballot in the trash. I white counties, they attempt to salvage the ballot.

[Raster]

4. KICK!!! Send this to EVERYONE you know!!! Count all the votes!

And don't let anyone poo-poo you or tell you to "get over it." You don't have to...

[Free2BMe]

10. We need receipted ballots...That's it!

[Almost_there]

37. How can you have a receipted ballot in an anonymous election?

I've heard this before, but, all I keep coming back to is you can't create a receipt that would be legal that would actually say who you voted for. Talk about fraud possiblities! Rove could print up a million or two fake receipts with Bush's name on them, and just hand them out to people as they come in to contest Shrub's losing the election. At best, you can have a generic receipt saying you voted, nothing more. What if some rethug takes a look at your receipt and beats you to a pulp? The possibilities are frightening, more so because an election is meant to be confidential always. I just don't see how receipts could work without massive fraud.

~Almost

[Philostopher]

11. Yeah, but the SCLM already has started ...

discrediting the exit polls. That's how they're going to get around this -- they probably kept enough people from voting for Kerry that the margin was closer than it really was, and then they discredit exit polling from the AP. Simple -- 'exit polls were wrong.' It's quite the load of shite, but that's their story, and they're stickin' to it.

I love Greg Palast, but I don't think this story has any legs. Nobody's going to stand up for the tale of the exit polling, flat-out. It's all you'll hear for the next six months 'exit polls were wrong, exit polls were wrong. Oh, did you know -- the exit polls in Ohio were wrong! And by the way, don't trust anything you hear about the exit polls in Ohio, because we all know they were wrong!'

Watch 'em and see if that's not what happens.

[On the Road]

12. Palast Says There Were 247,672 Uncounted Votes

between provisional ballots and spoiled ballots. To be declared the winner, Kerry would need at 80% of those, assuming 89% of provisional ballots are counted and all spoiled ballots are counted.

It's a stretch, but possible. It could cut the difference to a point where a recount comes into play. Looks like contesting the outcome might have been a good strategy. Hope it's not too late.

Official Votes:	
Difference	 138,000 
	
Uncounted Votes:	
Provisional	 155,000
% Accepted 	      89% (same as 2000)
	         137,950
	
Spoiled	          92,672
	
Net Votes	
Outstanding	 230,622 
	
% to Kerry	      80%
	
Tot Kerry	 184,498 
Tot bush          46,124 
Difference	138,373 

[brainshrub]

13. You just don't get it, do you? It's over.

It doesn't matter if Bush was caught on videotape bragging how he personally developed the code for the BBV. It wouldn't matter if Rove published a print-out of all the uncounted voters who cast a ballot for Kerry.

It was over the moment Kerry surrendered without a whimper.

The Democrats didn't just lose the election, there is no Democratic party anymore. This is much, much worse than it seems.

[struggle4progress]

30. No. The election is over but the fight against black box voting ...

... had better pick up speed immediately -- because we're going to lose election after election after election <until>/unless the public refuses to accept the black boxes.

I think the poster is right that Kerry probably won. I agree with you nothing will change enough to give us the White House for the next four years. But I say serious activists must now stand up, dust themselves off, and head immediately into the long fight for Congress in 2006.

[candy331]

34. Seems you will have to open the heads of the disbelievers and pour

it in since they seem to no be able to grasp what is so simple and right on their nose.

[Gut Check]

14. I cannot understand why Kerry would concede a hotly

contested state in less then 24 hours....go figure.

[struggle4progress]

29. Because he was physically and emotionally exhausted ...

... after months of hard campaigning and because decent mainstream political types really have trouble believing that anybody else would play dirty.

[d_b]

15. Scary

He was right about Florida 2000.

[tiedye]

16. We stuck with him, he dumped us.

He betrayed us, like Gore. Oh, God forbid, there's be "bad press" and we'd be seen as "grumpy" or "sore losers". Better just hand it over. More like, bend over.
kerry I'd like you to respond to Palast. and be accountable to all us losers that went to the polls for your sorry butt.

[RaleighNCDUer]

21. Gore did not dump us --

He fought 2000 until they threw him out the door and locked it. Much as I like Kerry, I wish he'd shown the same grit.

[x-g.o.p.er]

27. How can you say Gore betrayed us?

He fought it all the way to the Supreme Court, which was an uphill battle he very nearly won.

I can maybe see your point on Kerry, but to ay that about Gore is falt out disingenuous.

[struggle4progress]

31. Unless you've been campaigning all day every day for months ...

... as Kerry was, I think it's unfair for you to criticize him this way.

I tend to agree with you that he rolled over too fast, but Kerry may have a better sense than either of us about what's doable politically, and let's remember he's been pounded hard for weeks and weeks.

[GirlinContempt]

40. Well.... see....

The way I see it is, based on what happened with Gore last time, Kerry MAY be on the right track. If fraud/disenfranchisement investigations take place, it may work out to be better that Kerry isn't seen to be at the head of them. It's important that all of the ballots are counted, and that any form of fraud that may have occurred is challenged, however that may be more effectively done without Kerry taking the lead. It's politics, and there are politics within politics. If fraud can be proved, it will be, and I think at that point Bush would be impeached, turning the tide for the Democrats. However, if Kerry backs a false investigation, it'll be Gore-04.

[merliecurlie]

43. weird

no. Kerry is a major fighter. something is going on. (please tell me that something is going on - I'm starting to sound like a fundamentalist without a religion!) no...he is way too savy and way too smart. something is weird because Michael and Move On and ACT and Dean all seem like they went to Maui on vacation. It is way too quiet...unless everyone is hiding under their covers waiting for Osama to appear on HBO. It is way too quiet. Something is up.

[Amigust]

49. Better to be a sore loser with voter fraud evidence

than one without. Keep digging it out.

[PATRICK]

17. Palast is wrong on one crucial point

That is in thinking any possible retrieval of those votes would be a win. Obviously he doesn't rmemeber the litiagtion in Florida and the GOP counter strategies AND NO MENTION OF THE F WORD. He is stating a well rejected truth that I hope the Brits at least hear and believe. Kerry won Ohio but can never prove it. Going through the methodology only the case for fraud can be made. The scale of fraud and the judgment to be given for it don't add up to a kerry win necessarily either. That's a big Supreme Court longshot. Yet the admission, even the discussion of fraud would defeat the legitimacy of the Bushcrow administration and stop the easy installation of cheat machines.

Palast's big point about a Kerry victory is buried along with the fraud issue in cold hard reality. First that election day was too late to play the game and second that Kerry's sconcession seals the public ignorance. Seals too our fate under the Diebold dominion. Palast's effective point was made before the election and it would have been wise for the DNC to pump up the truth and not be afraid of discouraging voters. They continue to be partners in deception and their own destruction.

One wonders why any voter would want to follow the current DNC leadership down the toilet of surrender and coverup.

A civil suit by Harris has a better chance of sneaking a substantial win over the cheats than any part of this poltical fiasco.

[library_max]

25. Forget it. It's not going to happen.

Even if Harris's group won a civil suit, it would just be appealed. Eventually, it's going to hit the Republican-owned level of the judiciary, even if that means going all the way to the SCOTUS.

The media is going to pooh-pooh and downplay any evidence we find of fraud or miscounting. Even if we can prove that Kerry won, it won't matter. Remember when the 2000 votes in Florida were finally counted and they proved that Gore won? What did that accomplish? The media buried it and covered it up with nonsense about the "four counties." And for those who read down far enough to see the important truth? Hey, whaddya know, Gore won Florida after all. Oh well.

We can't protest enough to keep the media from dismissing us or portraying us as a handful of conspiracy theorists and bitter losers. Even if the whole world concludes that the election was a fraud, you know how much the Bush administration cares what the rest of the world thinks.

[Amigust]

50. Bev Harris has made over 3000 FOIA requests from counties to gather

voting information. Wishing her well, and thanks.

[Steelangel]

18. It sick me when I read that article...

What now? Kerry won, so hold your victory party. But make sure the shades are down: it may be become illegal to demand a full vote count under PATRIOT Act III.

Ack. That's only way for republicans to win. That's scary part.

[LibeMatt]

22. Regarding concession

Perhaps Kerry will start another investigation, of stolen votes...

[gordianot]

23. Ever think the investigation is being done quietly.

None of the parties involved want a mob.

[dweller]

24. one would hope n/t

dp

[Anarcho-Socialist]

28. I agree with him

but we need alot of proof to even hope any of the media will report it.

[V Lee]

32. Anyone know of a good organization pushing for an audit trail

for all votes?

Seems like this needs to be addressed (by Congress?) before 2008.

[Amigust]

51. The GOP congress will not let it happen. Period.

[MileHiStealth]

33. It's all a setup ....

The billionaires at the top pick who the next
prez is going to be . Than they have these fake
elections so that we all think we live in a
democracy. Its like the Matrix. Maybe one day
we'll wake up and be stunned beyond belief
by what the truth is.

[merliecurlie]

44. matrix

very cool - I like that picture and it makes some sense. only one thing doesn't sit right...the thought freezes the frame, which then becomes the matrix. when children come home crying because their teacher went nutso over some required regimented testing, it becomes very human and the matrix stuff, no matter how comprehensible, goes out the window. it's kind of soul breath that keeps it all going.

[stavka]

35. Kerry still quit.....

I have a lot of problems with your post...I'm too sad and depressed to list them.

The fight is not over, get ready for 2006

- or get a passport, renew foreign contacts that have a spare couch, or buy an assault rifle (now that they are legal) these seem like the available options.

[Dancing_Dave]

38. Palast is essentially right

And Kerry was definately way wrong to concede before he could even figure out what scams were going on...hmm like Democrats who agreed not investigate Bush and Cheney's connections to 9/11 as soon as some anthrax arrived in their mailbox's.

NEVER AGAIN NOMINATE ANY OF THESE COWARDS WHO ARE UNWILLING TO FIGHT FOR TRUTH AND JUSTICE FOR THE PEOPLE!!!

[mom cat]

39. Kerry won. But he wouldn't fight for it. If he could not fight this fight,

he would have folded under other pressures. I frankly do not care how tired he was any more than I care about Bush's whining about hard work. This is not about Kerry. It is about life and death issues, planetary survival issues, economic disaster and a new feudalism, where the elite have nukes, sophisticated spying technology and the means and the will to subvert all human rights.
If there is no redress within the system, then the system is totally illegitimate. I am tired of pleading with corporate media to do their job. They won't. NPR cancelled interviews with Greg Palast.
From now on, I will only support alternative media. I also will only support organizations with morality and guts. I regret every dime that I gave to the party and it's nominees. From now on my limited funds will go to groups of the frontline who can exert their collective power and to the building of decentralized alternatives.

[NJCher]

46. Palast interviewed this morning

"NPR cancelled interviews with Greg Palast."

WNYC just interviewed Palast this a.m. Check the program listings later for the segment. I could also post back to this thread with it

Cher

[merliecurlie]

41. fraud

I just got this through an email and was going to post it in the hopes that somebody here knows what to do with this. Who knows what to do with this? "I intend to spend it" - at the least we can make a statement that this is NOT a mandate. Please somebody say something...everyone I know has gone to sleep from exhaustiona and depression including the 527s. HELP!

[Moderator]

47. Kick

:kick: