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frustrated_lefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-02-04 02:08 AM
Original message
My comment, offerred to DU and the Adder
In the recent column, The Fat Lady Sings, The Plaid Adder expressed a sense of desolation and cognitive dissonance following the results of November 2nd. Many of her thoughts in that column no doubt resonated with many of her readers. The failure of 51% of this country to recognize the damage done upon their homeland by the current administration is disheartening and, mind-boggingly, extremely difficult to understand. This administration WANTS more mercury in our water, fewer trees within our forests, more nuclear weapons, fewer allies with faith in us, more fundamentalist education within the school room and less scientific research performed or accepted. The list goes on. How could even the most conservative hard-liner support this? It’s a dilemma, hard to grasp, and difficult to conceive.

I lack Adder’s talent with words, but, in this space, I’ll attempt to address her basic, and closing, concern: what do the people on the other side of the line, in those murky red states really need? What earns their devotion and support and participation in a democracy which so many of us are desperately trying to resuscitate?

As a youth, I was raised in a very blue urban segment of a very red state. During parts of the year, I frequently visited rural relatives in very red parts of that same state. My grandmother and grandfather were good-hearted, hard-working, loving, caring, pro-life, homophobic, anti-communist conservatives. To his dying day, my grandfather went to a job in the wood-mill, losing his hearing day by day until he was virtually deaf. My grandmother ran her own dress store, and had the habit of making quilts as gifts to offer as heartfelt gifts into her 90’s. They protected their 55 acres from development. They worked the farm together, raised their own fruit and veggies, donated what meager income they had to help the needy and brought fresh food to those without. They were kind and generous people who cared about fellow human beings. They believed in a work ethic, undeniably, but they understood that people fall upon hard times. Their response was not to condemn, but to express Christian charity and help their fellow man. The sad thing, for me, is, were they alive today, they would have voted for Bush.

The question is: why?

The answer, sadly, is simple and difficult to correct. It’s education, stupid. In later years, my grandmother complained to me about “the commies.” I, in turn, asked her what communism was. She couldn’t answer. My grandfather once made a comment about muslim heathens. I asked him what Islam stood for. He couldn’t answer. In the meantime, numerous commercials use ambiguous code-words to incite the base. The mainstream media does little to balance this, and seems to prefer an undereducated populace. Some freaks with psychopathic tendencies (Anne Coulter, Rush Limbaugh) will always “stay the course” even if they have the true information.

The “red states,” however, DO contain people who care. How do you get these people to vote blue?

1) Make it clear you don’t object to Jesus. He just belongs in the church and not the class room. (Hey, look, I’m non-christian, but it’s an issue in many states).
2) Screw this “pro-life” versus “pro-abortion.” Make it “pro-education/prevention” versus ignorance resulting in abortion. They succeed largely to manipulation of language, phrasing.
3) Talk about health care, social security, and medicare.

The wolves are in the fold. The sheep just don’t know it yet. And, if Jesus is their herder, the flock needs to know. Some of these people come home too tired to find the truth for themselves, and take things on faith and try to do the right thing. The people you think are your enemy are not your enemy. They work hard to make a better nation. By doing so, they support you. Reciporicate, and support them by letting them know the things they miss because they’re too busy working.

FL
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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-02-04 02:30 AM
Response to Original message
1. I thought you expressed things very well.
n/t
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Meritaten1 Donating Member (241 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-02-04 03:30 AM
Response to Original message
2. There is a lot that people have in common
Edited on Thu Dec-02-04 03:34 AM by Meritaten1
in "red" and "blue" states.

Sometimes Americans focus so much on the differences they forget that we're all interested in protecting certain family and civil rights and having more choices in daily life. In the past, the message may have sounded discordant to some older rural ears, and it is so important to unify the country now around democratic values.

Thanks, I thought your post was very informative.

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Moderator DU Moderator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-02-04 03:53 AM
Response to Original message
3. Link to the article being discussed.
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PittLib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-02-04 04:57 AM
Response to Original message
4. It is my opinion, as well ...
that education is the key to everything. I have several theories to bat around ... but it always boils down to education. I feel that many in our society lack the ability to think objectively, therefore see most issues as 1 dimensional and/or black and white. Look at an object across the room and describe it. Now, pick that object up and hold it, turn it, really look at it ... then describe it. You get many different perspectives, and I feel that this is the fundamental difference between liberals and conservatives (for the most part). Analytical thinking, critical thinking - these need to be taught.

I've noticed that many ideals (for lack of a better word) start in one of two ways: explaining the great in terms of the minute, as with science - or explaining the minute in terms of the great, as with religion. I'm somewhere in the middle and I can't resolve myself to accepting either as absolute. To fully embrace science is to acknowledge myself as merely a collection of cells and synapses and chemical reactions, and therefore sacrifice my identity and my humanity. To fully embrace religion is to give yourself over to something intangible and uncertain, and therefore sacrifice responsibility to and understanding of this earth (to keep it short). It's a tedious balance ... and many choose a side and cross over at their convenience. I liken it to praying for a heart, should you need a transplant. Not the best analogy - but bear with me. In the strict sense, if your heart is failing - isn't it a sign that your time is up? And if the afterlife is so preferable, why not go? Isn't it God's will? That heart has to come from somewhere - so by praying for it, aren't you wishing misfortune on others? These are things I think about in my impossible quest to live hypocrisy free.

Most theories work this way ... capitalism, communism, economics, religion, science - they're usually extreme and they look great on paper, but never work quite so well when you factor in humanity. It's the eternal struggle (or mine at least) heart vs head, logic vs emotion. This probably makes no sense, but I'm trying really hard.

Some believe that if you take care of everyone, you will benefit. Some believe that if you take care of yourself, everyone will benefit. I believe we have to do both - again ... that tedious balance. What bothers me most is this assumption that we all equal. This is, after all, what we were taught - what this country was founded on. Unfortunately, that is not the case. I resent the notion that there is a level playing field, and that we all have the same opportunities. I'm rambling ... so I'll try to reign it in.

I am a democrat because I believe I have a responsibility to my fellow humans, that I have no right to want for something that I wouldn't want for my neighbor. I am lucky to live in this country, and I want to reap the benefits and privileges that it has to offer ... but I cannot, in good conscience, do so at the expense of another. It is my small attempt to live hypocrisy free.

One of the benefits and problems of living in this country, is the fact that we live in communities. For some of us - this is dynamic. For others it is homogenized. It is how we identify ourselves, and that obviously is bound to cause problems in the national sense. But it is never so simple as "good vs evil" or any of the variations. Red vs Blue, for example. I understand that there are many good, devout people out there that don't believe what I believe ... but there is a beauty in that. I guess my point is that we need to teach people to see outside the immediate, and to try to foster understanding and compassion. Nudge people toward the grey, and away from the black and white and absolutes. We dems are great with the grey - we understand the grey. We can see things beyond our own subjectivity. But some people have been raised in places where their religion and cultural views have been ingrained by the "likeness" in their community. There aren't many perspective to choose from ... and ours is presented in such a negative manner, so far from their understanding. This is where the name calling and sucker punching has to stop. This is why Bush* "won". He created an image of us as a threat to what they know and understand. Rove was very effective in this regard, but understanding is not beyond their scope ... I have to believe that. We have to appeal to their humanity. Person to person. Fight for rights, not with your neighbor - because if you do, they win and will continue to win. Here comes all those damn cliches about flies and honey ... I'll spare you that much. Be nice, but don't budge. Bush* may have stolen the presidency claiming victory, but it isn't a proud victory. It cannot be "won" on fear and still be proud. We need to challenge, not attack - engage, not argue. Get people to pick that object up and really look at it. Now I realize that there are plenty of narrow minded, hate mongers out there ... and by all means, unleash your ire on them. Have a ball ... but we can't sacrifice those who don't realize that we will not jeopardize their way of life, and that we just might represent their own best interest.

Wow. It's almost 5am, and I have a headache ... for what it's worth.
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lukasahero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-02-04 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Wow
Thanks for taking the time to write this and share your thoughts and feelings so well. This sums up so much of what I think/feel/believe but have been unable to express.
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PittLib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-02-04 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Thank you ...
I'm glad it made some sense. :hi:
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bklyncowgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-02-04 06:19 AM
Response to Original message
5. It's education and information
I personally believe we're in for the long haul here.

Quite frankly, the Democrats and to that I add liberals and progressives and moderates regardless of party affiliation are losing the battle of ideas and losing them badly. We're losing because the right wing not only controls most of the media but because the right wing has also put considerable effort into developing and articulating ideas and putting these ideas into a form that ordinary people stressed out from their daily lives can understand when they come home and put on the news.

We need our own American Enterprise Institute and Heritage Foundations. We need our own Rupert Murdochs to give our ideas a platform that has a chance to reach the average person. We need our own Rush Limbaughs and Ann Coulters and Sean Hannity's to bring these ideas to life.

To just say, "We need better candidates" as we do every four years is just repeating the same failed action over and over again and that is the definition of insanity.
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NoSheep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-02-04 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
8. I grew up in a grey zone in a red state near a very blue zone!
(Thank goodness)
I think the poor southern whites, the ones I grew up with, who USED to vote for democrats, increasingly cannot see themselves as disenfranchised because of their racism. My town was very racist and I think the folks around me learned to associate the democratic party with the civil rights movement. So many said in those days: "I don't want a handout from the government like those folks on welfare!"
They didn't realize they were in the same boat; taken advantage of by corporations who moved in and set up plants where they know they can get cheap (uneducated) labor; underfunded schools keeping them dumb.
I watched my birth community go from loving, peaceful democrats; who would help anyone if they could, to hard core republicans over a period of 30 or so years. Regan was their new god!!! Like a grandfather, he told them what they wanted to hear and once and for all, with those Regan years, conspicuous consumption became fashionable and everybody had to have some! So everybody got a credit card, and now everybody is in debt. But they "Have" something, which makes them different from the "have-nots" I'll bet I couldn't find one person in the town where I grew up, who's skin is white, who would say they have anything in common with poor blacks and other working class minorities. They do NOT see themselves as the working poor and that is exactly what they are. Their lack of education and exposure, their belief of anything any white man tells them on TV if it sounds conservative enough, and their RACISM is what has aligned them to the republican party. This may hold true in other parts of the country, but it is definitely true where I grew up in the south.
I am fortunate to live in the blue zone now, and when I visit home, I can't believe how uninformed they all are. And they vote for Bush, the idiots. It's so sad.
I know what it is they want. They want "some", now that the worst sin you can commit these days is the sin of being poor!
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CheshireCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-02-04 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. We must have grown up in the same town.
Racism is the 800 lb gorilla in this discussion. It is never discussed in the small southern mill town where I was born.

In public, the white population will not speak in a manner that shows racism. But having been born in the south in the early 50's, I know the code words. Behind closed doors, there is no need for code words.

Politicians have learned these code words.

And you are correct, they do not recognize that they are the working poor,because they HAVE stuff. Bought on maxed out credit cards.

Here's my question:

Now that the credit card companies are raising interest rates if you make a late payment on any bill (even the power bill) and hospitals are garnishing the wages of those who can only pay a small amount a monthe, how long can these people continue the charade?
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NoSheep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-02-04 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. I have often thought about this and feel the democratic party
should pay attention. The votes of poor whites will continue to go to the republicans unless the psychology of this problem is addressed.
As we know, education, exposure, is everything...but you and I can't educate everyone we know who has these feelings.
I am fascinated by folks I know from Minnesota for example, whose parents are still democrats because they aren't dealing with this racism issue the way we are here in the south. They were democrats in 1959 and they're still democrats in 2004. So many communities in the south are so insular. Just 25 miles away from my home in the triangle, it's like another world. And I know what motivates them. They are so ashamed of their lack of experience, they have to group themselves with the "haves". And it is the "haves" that continue to rape them economically and take advantage of their ignorance.
Most of these red states are half blue. If we had had the vote of
just a portion of these folks, the election would have been in the bag. HOW can the democratic party win these people over again? That is the key to our success.
I will add an essay tomorrow when I am at work and have access to it by a writer from Virginia that speaks to this. The mentality. It is so very sad.:hug: BTW I grew up in Oxford, NC.
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GOPFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-02-04 05:15 PM
Response to Original message
10. They won't listen to me...or you...or ABC
They only listen to their pastor or trusted friend or trusted neighbor. It's a very closed society. They are afraid of new ideas.


I know, for I grew up Baptist in Indiana.

They are good people though.
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NoSheep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-02-04 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Y'know, I can agree that they are good people. It makes me so sad that
they are so blinded by certain things. There are huge portions of my life that I have to set aside in order to have any relationship at all with them. When I was a little girl, my grandfather was a tenant farmer. They were poor, but didn't really feel that way because they had enough to eat and lots of folks were just like them, including the black tenant farmers. Everyone seemed to have a kind of equality based on the fact that they shared a lifestyle. Communities were small and old folks were taken care of by the younger. Now, in those same areas, lives are completely fragmented and they are really worse off. They have no more education or opportunity, and they don't have their old lifeways. They saw the civil rights movement grow and turn into a viable force that impowered blacks for the first time. They are too proud to realize they need their own movement against "The Man". Or that they should have been a part of it from the beginning! The man is keeping them down and they just keep telling themselves, like the hopefull (and pitiful) Americans that they are, that if they work hard, they'll get somewhere.
It is a serious issue that threatens the life of our party.
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SharonAnn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-02-04 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. Amen. They are extremely closed, especially to ideas or knowledge.
A friend of mine, born and raised here but college-educated and a teacher, says that what is hardest for her to deal with is the "militant ignorance". The attitude that "not only don't I know something, I don't WANT to know it."
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GOPFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. Yes!
And they're PROUD of that ignorance. That's what blows me away. They dislike and make fun of educated people. They even feel superior to educated people.
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housewolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Feeling superior to educated people
You're right, they do. And there is a reason they do. Call it the Conservative Backlash Movement. It grew as a reaction to the 1960's cultural upheaval.

They are the group who are on the other side of the culture war. This group honestly believes that they are the victims of a vast conspiracy against them, a conspiracy of liberal "elite" (Hollywood and the media) and academics to debase and destroy American culture. It is these cultural issues that are most important to them.

So yes, because they believe that academia is a malevelent force within society, they find righteousness and superiority from being untainted by those forces. And we can relate - don't we feel righteous and superior towards them? It is human nature to want to feel good about ourselves and one of the primary ways we humans do that is by turning those we are in conflict with into an "other," taking on self-righteousness and feeling superior.

And they have powerful voices perpetrating their persecution and reinforcing their sense of victimhood. Such names as Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter and others have convinced them that this "liberal elite" is the cause of all their discomfort and marginalization.

Now, you and I might know/believe that this is nonsense, but the fact of the matter is that a big chunk of the American population believe that this is so and we get nowhere when we diminish and derogate them for their beliefs. When we brush them off as "wing-nuts" and discount their beliefs as "nonsense" we close our minds to them. And when we disrespect them and their beliefs, how can we expect them to be open to our ideas, even when ours are more beneficial to their economic interests? Don't we, when we dismiss their beliefs as nonsensical, prove to them that we ourselves think that we are the very "liberal elite" they believe us to be?

I think it is important, going forward, for us to know what exactly it is that our opposition believes, why they believe what they do and to have some respect for each individual whose life experiences and education has led them to take on such ideas. Respect is a critical first step.

One of the first rules of effective persuasion is to meet someone where they are, and then you can begin to move them in a different direction. But it is only when someone feels "met" and in rapport can they trust enough to entertain a new direction.

Thomas Franks speaks to the Conservative Backlashers quite well. If you haven't yet read his book "What's the Matter with Kansas?" I suggest that you put it on your reading list - it's an eye-opener.

Beth


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teryang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. That's a defense mechanism
And a very successful one in communities where the uneducated or provincial prevail. Anyone in a leadership position who doesn't pander to their anti-rational pap will quickly find themselves up the creek without a paddle. They're so dependent on habit and custom that thought and independent evaluation and criticism, let alone new ideas represent a profound threat.

Educated people are "rate breakers." (This was a major Vonnegut theme) They undermine the all purpose stereotypes and wacko ideological perspective which answer everyday lifes challenges with a little jingo from the minister or lush rimhole. This is what fascist ideology is all about, the habitualized response. (Heil Hitler!) It's belonging and its power without any mental work. Recite the jingo, make the ad hominen attack when you are presented with an intellectual challenge or an environmental change that requires an adaptive response. These people and we with them are doomed to extinction. It's just that they, like the Germans in 1939 don't realize it yet. Challenge their worldview and they become highly unstable and dangerous. Reality is challenging their worldview. They are a dangerous mass movement.
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scarletlib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-02-04 07:03 PM
Response to Original message
13. well said
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Raster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 01:07 AM
Response to Original message
16. Thanks for commenting. I believe we all have more in common than....
we do differences. The dark side has made splintering and factioning their stock-in-trade. They are the pros at framing any discussion as "us against them." Consider, that some of the highest in the g.o.p. are gay and hide their sexuality. They know that if they came out as gay and repuke, their tactics of division would not carry the same weight as they do now. Can you just imagine dave dreier saying "I'm republican and gay and god loves me." He may think it, but he certainly can't say it, because a major part of their routine is "god loves me more 'cause I'm not gay." It's somewhat akin to gee-dubya touting himself as "the MBA president. Get real. Your daddy bought that MBA. You didn't earn it. Just like you didn't earn the presidency.
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