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Nikia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 09:05 PM
Original message
Base needs should be provided by the government for all
Actually, my best friend stated this to me today. He said that a basic apartment, food, and health care should be provided to all Americans. He said rather than the "handout" decreasing the motivation of many people, he thought that this could actually increase the motivation of some people who are naturually unmotivated or in a bad situation.
He said that many people without access to good education or oppurtunities easily get discouraged when their wages barely feed them or keep them off the street. By guarenteeing the things that people need to live, they can more easily dig themselves out of negative patterns of living: substance abuse, violence, depression, ignorance, and general apathy.
I know that we already have food stamps, welfare, and federal housing. We still have people starving and people who are homeless. Should we just give food and shelter to all Americans in need without having to fill out forms and certain qualifications? Certainly this would help those confused about what they need to do to get help and those with low incomes who may or may not qualify. It would also allow those unable to work to be able to live without having to be a skilled budgeter to figure out how to make the little money cover rent and food.
What do you think?
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KFC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 09:14 PM
Response to Original message
1. Didn't work so well in the USSR
And I guarantee that it did not eliminate substance abuse, violence, depression, ignorance, and general apathy.
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. The USSR was NOT a communist country
They always had a ruling class. Not sure if any country has ever been truly communist. The news reels with bread lines were somewhat US propaganda. Not that there weren`t people starving there, but there were MANY starving in the US at the same time.
Growing up we had a young lady as an exchange student from the Ukraine. (and about 11 other countries)
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KFC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. Sure
And those millions starving under Stalin were just on a hunger strike.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Deleted message
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. I wasn`t talking that far back.
But since you bring it up, there were plenty of CHILDREN dying in the mines right here in the good old USA during Stalins rule. And quite a few starving folks.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #16
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #18
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #4
13. Well, many indigenous tribes work on a communistic basis.
The women go out and gather plant food and small game while the men hunt. They bring the food and other foraged goods back to the village and share everything with each other. This is as communistic as it gets. Old people and small children who can't contribute that much anymore still get to share in the shared goods.
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. I agree
Never been a 'goverment' that was truly communist.
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #13
23. Socialism only works in a small community setting.
In a situation where everybody knows everybody, and knows who is pulling their load, and who is slacking, socialism is the natural form of economics. Social disapproval takes care of the slackers.

But in a large society, socialism breaks down. Socialism has no mechanism for dealing with the flat out lazy. And believe me, some folks are lazy.

Also, most poverty is caused by the poor person themselves. I was raised in poverty, and know it first hand so don't bother to flame me. We were poor because my father would not attempt to learn the skills needed to get good work. With only occasional exception, every poor home I have known, there was a bad habit that is keeping the family down. Vices are expensive.

A life of dissipation is exactly that. It dissipates the resources that could be used for betterment. I would support a system such as you propose, only when I has a mechanism for dealing with those who will not help themselves.

I have no objection to temporary help for someone. I have been helped before, several times when I was things have happen to me. But each time I got back on my feet. I didn't wallow in the system. I used it to get back to productivity.
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Nikia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. There are many who don't slack but still have trouble w/ needs
There are so many low wage jobs out there that are taken, not by teenagers living at home or spouses of those with decent jobs, but by people trying to support themselves and their families. Higher paying jobs requiring only on the job training are disappearing. What is a person to do. Going to college, even community college, costs time and money. When one is having difficulty paying bills for housing and utilities and buying groceries, this can be difficult. Even if with skills, jobs are not guarenteed. What does this do towards one's attitude about work and general self esteem?
And what of the slacker? (Excuse my single gendered language.) Should he starve? Should he be homeless? Should we let him die? Is he more likely to committ a crime if his basic needs are not met? What if after he gets a bit older, he decides that he wants to stop being a bumb? Is anyone going to hire a homeless guy?
Of course, there are children living in poverty. What should be done about them?
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #27
36. In my post I said that I don't mind temporary help. I have had
temporary help myself. But I totally oppose letting somebody ride the system, especially for generation after generation. I don't have an answer for the children problem. Certainly it isn't the kids fault. But neither should the lazy parents be allowed to hold their children hostage so the parent can be irresponsible.

Perhaps the kids should be taken from the parents and put in state homes. Then at least the parent's values of laziness won't be passed on. And the threat of losing their kids might be the spur that would get them motivated.

I know I am harsh, but I have seen too much damned laziness and don't want to support it.
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Pithlet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #36
49. Harsh?
It goes beyond harsh. That is one of the coldest posts I've ever seen on DU. Unbelievable. The mere thought of children screaming as they're ripped out of their "lazy" parents arms and sent to an institution doesn't make you rethink that position? I don't know if there's anything anyone can say to you.
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 09:17 PM
Response to Original message
2. Sounds like something more appropriate for a civilized democracy

Not for the US.

Even suggesting it is probably a violation of the Secret Patriot Act.

Of course, since it's secret, we can't be sure.

What we can be sure of is that something like that would not benefit key US business interests, such as defense and energy companies, so your friend is clearly a terrorist.
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kdmorris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 09:26 PM
Response to Original message
3. I agree
This subject has been on the front of my mind all day. I'm so angry that we don't have universal health care in this country, but I've no place to really vent that anger (except to keep voting).

One of the women in our office had a stroke in October. She has been out of work since then. Because no one told her about our open enrollment period for our new insurance company (we switched from Cigna to Aetna) in November, she didn't sign up. She had no idea that she was required to. Problem is, she needs certain very expensive drugs to keep her from having another stroke. Because she didn't sign up, her health insurance was canceled effective Dec 31. When she tried to get her drugs, the pharmacist said she would have to pay for it herself. Since she didn't have the $450, she hasn't taken her medication since Jan. 2. When she tried to get our company to help her, they said she was out of luck and there was nothing they could do for her, except tell her to make sure she gets COBRA.

Well, she had another stroke today. She's back in the hospital with no health insurance, and is looking at having to be out of work for a while at 2/3 pay. Everyone at work feels so helpless. We managed to raise about $1200 for her to get her medications, but the hospital bills are going to drown her in debt.

This should NEVER have happened. There should never be a time in a country that is supposed to be civilized where a 29 year old mother of three is placed in this situation. As long as we tie health insurance to employers, this will happen over and over. We've advised her to get a lawyer, but even I don't know if that is going to do her any good. And the last thing she needs right now is the stress of trying to fight this when she should have been recovering from her LAST stroke.

The safety net in this country for people who find themselves in these deplorable situations is threadbare. It's a disgrace.

I agree with the basic food and shelter as well, but right now, health care is really something I'm thinking about a lot.
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. She needs to talk to NEWT
NEWT says we are responsible for our own health. If she had any PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY, she would just will herself to stay healthy. :crazy: HE really said that.
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kdmorris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Yeah I remember
He was the same jerk that said if she can't support these children, they should go to an orphanage. Maybe I should just tell her that. That will bring her stress level down and avoid another stroke.

Gotta love them wacky Republicans! :puke:
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. He is at it again.
I beleive he is more powerful now, than when he was in congress. And AL From from the DLC agrees with him LOCK STEP. (during Chamber of Commerce dinner wed)
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U4ikLefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. Your story is repeated 1000 times in the US each day
Edited on Fri Jan-09-04 09:44 PM by U4ikLefty
People are continually going with inadequate or no health care at all. I thought we were the "greatest country in the world"...well than how come some "lesser countries" treat their citizens better?
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kdmorris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. I wish I had the answer to that
The only thing I've ever come up with is that corporations bought America a long time ago and insurance companies and pharmacutical companies would refuse to go along with it, so politicians don't want to "rock the boat". Besides that, if we are desperate and unhappy, we will take any job we can get.

Republicans - "The Cheap Labor Party"
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #3
47. Question
If we have universal healthcare, do you still believe there should be limits to care? (Let's say we could save an 80-year-old man with a transplant that would cost $1 million and let him live another year or two, should we?)
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 09:34 PM
Response to Original message
6. We definitely need accessible health care that would take care of
Edited on Fri Jan-09-04 09:40 PM by Cleita
a lot of social problems. I think a system to help people solve their problems like cheap interest, flexible loans that you can get to tide you over life reversals would keep people from losing their homes and cars until they can get back on their feet again.
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U4ikLefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. Why loans...why not a National Health Care program?
interesting idea. I'm not coming down on ya...just curious, why the loans & not basic coverage for everyone, regardless of income?
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Oh, I definitely believe in National Health Care like
Canada, England or any of the enlightened nations of the world. By loans I meant that sometimes people fall on bad times, like losing a job. They need a little help to get over the hump. It could be as little as enough to cover a couple of mortgage payments or a couple of month's rent and car payments that tides them over.

I believe there should be a government office that provides this at a low interest rate to cover administration expenses. Once a person gets back on their feet, like say they get a new job, then the amount could be deducted from their checks at a certain rate say 5% or 10% of their salaries.

The way things are now, people lose their homes and their stuff like cars because the lack the cash to tide them over, where it would take so little cash outlay to pull them over a hump.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 10:19 PM
Response to Original message
20. Deleted message
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jbm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
21. check out this thread..
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=920274

and be sure to read the first article. I think your friend has it exactly right.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Deleted message
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kdmorris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Who said ANYTHING about hand outs?
What is being proposed here is BASIC life sustaining needs met for everyone in the country. No one here is advocating that everyone gets a 6 bedroom mansion on the beach. Just basic shelter. Basic health care. Not having to worry about STARVING to death or watching your children go hungry. Not having to worry about how you are going to get the money for your medication or your glucometer test strips to do the BASIC things you need to for your health.

I'm glad you are such an expert on both the immigration and emigration of other countries as well as an expert on human nature. Makes it a lot easier for you to convince yourself you are right, instead of having ANY compassion for another human being.

:mad:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Deleted message
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kdmorris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. Bullshit
You haven't been out in the world much, have you?

No point in talking to you, apparently. You have absolutely NO credibility. Have fun while you're around!

:hi:
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #26
31. So we don't have homeless in America according to you.
eom
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Skip Intro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #26
32. I can personally assure you that is wrong
I am in jeopardy of not having these basic needs met. I am barely getting by, with no health insurance - what would happen if I got cancer, or had to have a new car, in order to get to my job, so that I could turn my particular cog?

WE ARE THE Government! Let's drop a few less bombs and help some of our own. Society is crying out to be restructured. If we're all here and we're all of equal value, we must act in accordance to our beliefs. Has the human race ever done that?

(btw, I've never taken one dime from any government assistance program. if you don't count student loans ;D )
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. Birthright...
Edited on Fri Jan-09-04 11:34 PM by SoCalDem
When you get right down to it, the "property" of a nation should belong to all its citizens..

Native American cultures understood this.. bedoin nations understood this.. People used to move around based on weather, availability of game and the natural vegetation that was around.. They did not overstress the land, because they rotated themselves and allowed the land time to regenerate..

The idea of individual "ownership" is relatively new , by historic standards..

All the resources that have been extracted from the USA, have been sold to others, and the money claimed by individuals.. Citizens are expected to spill their blood to protect their country, yet their country gives them nothing more than the right to pay someone for a place to live, food to eat and water to drink..

Property is allocated to those who have money to buy a parcel of land, but are they more deserving of a place to live than the person who does not have money??

The basic fact is, that "some" people are deemed more "valuable" by virtue of a "genepool lottery".. Those born into poverty, often stay there, not because they are less deserving, or less patriotic.. They are just part of the American Caste System.. There are those shining examples of the few who DO manage to escape, but there are far more who never escape..
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kdmorris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #29
34. What a beautiful post..
I wish I had been as eloquent. And I agree with every word. It's been a long day, and a hard one, so my responses were probably a little more angry and a little less thought out than I would have liked.
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #29
48. Your view of property ignores history
The right to property is what drove millions to these shores. It was the one thing they could hold and ensure that they could feed their families and have something to pass down to future generations.
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dpibel Donating Member (898 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 02:31 AM
Response to Reply #48
53. They hate us for our property
I thought the official story was that people came to the US of A to breathe the pure air of freedom. Y'know, "Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free," and all that.

Thanks for straightening that out.

Actually, I think it's interesting that the American Dream hasn't always been the dream of getting filthy rich. There used to be something about freedom in there.

But no more.
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. Freedom
Freedom means many things to many people. Some wanted freedom of religion. Some were persecuted politically and wanted freedom to speak their minds or vote. Many were persecuted economically and they wanted things better for themselves and definitely for their children. A big piece of that was property ownership -- denied them in many other nations.

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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #22
30. Oh the hand out crowd again.
:eyes:
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Skip Intro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 11:11 PM
Response to Original message
25. What's the worst that could happen?
Let's give it a try.
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RowWellandLive Donating Member (531 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 11:27 PM
Response to Original message
33. I am not opposed to helping those truly in need
but what do we do about the plain old lazy who'd rather sit back and live off of the hard work of others? It is one thing to be down on your luck, and quite another to simply want to kick back and live aimlessly.

To be honest, if all those things were provided to me with no questions asked, I'd have little motivation to go to my crappy job every day. Many of us work like dogs only to receive the minimum rewards that you propose What's the motivation then if there is little risk in a life of being non-productive?

Nobody should starve or be homeless in this country, that's for sure. But I also believe that no one who is able bodied should get a free ride off the productive backs of their fellow citizens. Both these issues need to be addressed.
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Nikia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. But then you could start thinking about better things
You would go to your crappy job and the money that you made would go to improve your life. You wouldn't go there just to avoid starvation or being out of a home or having the heat shut off. You'd probably want a better home than what the governemnt would give you. You'd probably want standard consumer wants like a television and a computer. You might want to go college part time to get a better job. You might want to travel. You wouldn't go there out of fear though and you might be able to negotiate some more vacation.
There are many middle class and richer young people who do have that choice. They know that whether or not they find work that their parents will not let them starve and go homeless. A few of them freeload, but many of them go to college and get jobs that pay more than enough not to have to worry about basic needs.
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. I have seen people who would be happy to live off the system.
What they would actually do is claim they didn't have work to collect the benefits, and have a cash only, pay at end of day, no paperwork or records - thank you, employment. And if you don't think that isn't widespread - you are naive.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. It's the part about "who gets to decide who is lazy"
that bothers me.. Anytime someone is set up to be the one to decide the fate of others, it's troublesome..

Life is capricious, and no one knows what will happen from one day to the next.. You could be "on top of the world" one day and in a few seconds, your whole existance could change.. Someone else could be in a position to decide your fate..

People can amass quite a sum of money, but a change of employment, the sale of a company that employs you,an illness to an "uninsured relative",an accident with an uninsured driver... there are more scenraios than time to list them.. , any of these could wipe you out financially.. If this happens and you are unable to continue working, would you want someone else to decide what you are now "worth"?

Even animals have been shown to have "fits of compassion".. A herd may slow down to allow an injured member to try and catch up.. Elephants will stand vigil over a dying companion..Mother animals will fight to their death to save their young.. Humans , though the highest "evolved", seem to be the ones with the least compassion..(as a group).. Some are so ready to holler.."Get up..quit slacking..pull your own weight..show some personal responsibility...snap out of it and get busy".. The least productive person among us, has VALUE.. It should not be up to others to decide whether any other person is "worthy"..

I am not a churchgoer (former Catholic), but if someone is hungry and I can feed them, I do.. If someone is homeless, I will put them up.. If someone needs help, and I can help them, I do..

I guess you could say I am my brother's keeper, not his judge:)


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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-04 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. All the slaves in Rome were lazy.
Edited on Fri Jan-09-04 11:50 PM by Cleita
Most didn't live beyond thirty years of age. I guess it depends whom defines who is lazy. I do know a fact though. I never knew a poor unemployed person who had a maid or butler or a slave.
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #37
40. All of those compasions are on a direct one on one level.
They are not "entitlement" programs. Chimps will also beat up a chimp that finds food and doesn't give the food cry so the others can come too. If a chimp grooms another, and doesn't get paid back with grooming, he won't groom that chimp again. The animal kingdom shows compassion, but it doesn't tolerate laziness.

If somebody came to you personally for help each day, and you helped them, at some point you would begin to ask if you were creating dependency.

YOU NEVER TRULY HELP SOMEONE WHEN YOU DO FOR THEM THAT WHICH THEY COULD AND SHOULD DO FOR THEMSELVES. In fact you hurt them.

When a chick is pecking it way out of the egg, if you break the egg to help it out, you kill the chick. It has to peck it's own way out.

We are called to be wise in the help that we give, to see that it really does help. If we give "help" that actually makes things worse, and we have reason to know that is the case, then we are guilty.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. Hi.
We have to give help. It's what makes us human. We also have to be able to accept help when we need it. The problem is that we have become so mean spirited that we think we can survive alone. It just isn't possible.

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camero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #40
50. It's not the 50's anymore
Things are quite different today. It's not a time where you can just walk into a factory and tell the foreman you work hard. Those factories are leaving.

Get an education? College costs are skyrocketing and aid is going down. Course Bush calls people who go to college to better thier lives while on welfare "lazy".

The gas station or the supermarket? No rights, wages too low to even keep an apartment. Anybody with previous experience in a skilled job
is deemed "overqualified".

Look, I've seen the laziness that you have seen. Most in my experience were drug addicts who were actually not on welfare but had SO's supporting them. I could argue that laziness, like greed, is a sickness. Aren't we obligated to help those people who are sick?

And what about the people who have life threatening illnesses. Are they "lazy"? And don't even think about attacking me on this because then you would have to work harder than me. 16-20hr days for 5 yrs straight. Beleive me, it works wonders for your health.

An 8hr day in an office would be a vacation for me. A respite from the ravages of illness would be a godsend.
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arko Donating Member (26 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 05:33 PM
Response to Original message
42. I'm naturally unmotivated
The fear of starving or freezing and peer pressure forces me to get out of bed every morning and go to work. I enjoy my work once I get there and I don't have a problem with my pay. But if you can throw in health-care I could give it all up.

But I would need to know some details before I fully committed. Would the apartment have heating and air conditioning. That's important because the summers here can be miserable. And I am also assuming the utilities would be paid as well. Stuck in an appartment with no heat, no light and no water I would be better off outside at least there I could build a fire.

On the food we're talking about good tasty food, not the gruel they fed David Copperfield I hope. It also needs to be prepared. All that food prep stuff is complicated and I could set my apartment on fire trying to prepare a meal. I would also need a refrigerator to store any left overs in case I didn't eat at the time the food was delivered. Oh yeah the food would need to be delivered I don't want the expense of getting a car.

The health-care improvements would need to include something so we don't have to wait on the doctor. I hate making an appointment and having to wait 30 min to an hour to see the doctor. Definitely don't want to wait in line.

I think I would be able to earn enough on my own to afford a TV, cable bill, a computer and internet service. Wanting those would provide me wth sufficient motivation to at least seek temporary employment.

I would go to a temp agency and let them send me to a job. If the job looked easy enough I would stay and earn some money if not I would leave. I have some friends that used to do this they told me it was amazing how many easy jobs there were on a temporary basis.

Then I could all this additional free time to other things like watching all of the episodes of Outer limits and posting messages on the internet. I'd leave the 40 hr/wk jobs to those more naturally motivated.
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. Hi arko!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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cryofan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 10:38 PM
Response to Original message
44. Dude, where's my flying car?
Edited on Sat Jan-10-04 10:41 PM by cryofan
I was a big fan of science fiction when I was younger. One common trope in SF is the socialist utopia, where the state used technology to eliminate work as we know it today. I always found that particular trope comforting. The state takes care of everything. No worries about healthcare, food, your family, housing, social status. Like some kind of rationalist god.

This idea about a futuristic state that provides all needs and eliminates all work is so appealing to me that it was part of the reason why I signed a cryonics contract with Alcor.

As some of us DUers have already discussed (see the thread cited elsewhere on this thread by someone else), many of the European countries have made moves in the direction you cite.

You can find links about social democracies in the URL in my sig below.

I also posted a response to thread earlier today that deals with this:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1003008

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Z-axis Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 11:43 PM
Response to Original message
45. vision for doing just that
I’m going to jump in with both feet (possibly stuck in my mouth). It’s a visionary agenda, not meant for implementation, at least not for the next four or five decades. But it is precisely in relm of vision that the liberal democrat fails to offer anything towards the realization of a more just or humane project than the conservative rep. It is really no more radical than the conservative agenda which contemplates a society controlled by religious edict, sexual hysteria, exploited labor and corporate oversight.

What differs the right from the left at this moment in time is that the right does have an agenda (horrifying as it may be) and that they generally stick to it even as they mask it as best they can. They were willing to absorb a few decades of lost elections and liberal ascendancy while they sharpened their practices and presentation.

What I propose is a vision in which compartmentalization of the political conflict replaces the transparent warfare that produces little but subversion under the name of ‘compromise’. It divides the activity of citizens into those that operate by capitalist rules and those more nearly socialistic applications, that do not. The two sides do not get to undermine the projects and vision of the other. The result is not that of ‘joint conference committees’ where projects turn into the opposite of what they intend, and disguises are designed to prevent the voter from ever knowing what happened. Recently, the dismantling of Medicare was begun under the deceptive title “Medicare Reform Package”. In reality it was merely the third stage in a long series of ‘deregulations’ that delivered our health care system to the insurance industry and the health provider industry. A system which those industries had largely designed for their own benefit.

Capitalism is inadequate and in conflict with its own profit-self-expansion missions to address the need for an effective, accessible health care system. Overburdened at best, Darwinian at worst – it either mitigates in favor of profit or doles out life, liberty and relief from pain as a class privilege. These are not acceptable conditions for the modern conscience. Equally, though, Socialism cannot offer much better. Its successes (as in Euro-socialism) are undeniable but modest. Healthcare provision and delivery stretch it to the breaking point. The Canadian system is beginning to show the strains, and what is left unreported would raise serious doubts that it succeeds any better than we do with our hodgepodge of insured, Medicared, wealth-up-front, emergency room drop-in, patch&forget system.

Indeed, these failures also appear in the minimum, ‘safety net’ provisions of other ‘essential support’ goods and services – food, shelter, clothing – to which I’d add ‘information’ and ‘energy’. Much of the failure is buried or hidden. The recent welfare reforms were little more than masquerades by Capitalism to inflate the labor pool with low-cost workers, but did not move anyone further up the income/class ladder. It just added competitive stress to the lowest end of the working poor. But I digress.

Both-feet-in-mouth: What I propose is that the entire list of basic human needs (well, perhaps ‘clothing’ can be dropped) be shifted from welfare/class-war objects to entitlement-objects. What I suggest is that they be shifted (including healthcare) not as entitlements because they are essential (though they are), but entitlements because they are earned, by each and every citizen of this country. How does that get done?

The ‘entitlements’ thing isn’t new, of course. Social Security (for all its faults) makes that experience clear. You get social security because you earned it/paid for it by your own labor. The faults of the system have nothing to do with the principle in that definition, which clearly sets it apart from say, welfare (you get because you need). That is why it is not okay to humiliate or disparage people for taking social security (not even the wealthy who are entitled to dip in), but it is okay to humiliate and punish welfare recipients. They didn’t earn it, let them pay in shame and deprivation, if nothing else. No one talks about how this serves Capitalism which is completely at easy with exploiting the misfortune of others, but that’s another story.

What lacks in our concept of entitlements (and to some extent makes it vulnerable in coming years) is that:

1. The entitlement does not generate wealth for the system it is meant to support. The surplus of your labor still goes into the business you happen to be in at the time. It could be wealth for the porn industry; it could be wealth for bagel production. The earmarked taxes for social security are over and above the wealth you generate (usually they are “surplus” from your own pocket which was nearly empty to begin with).

2. The entitlement is delinked from the specific lacks that may befall a citizen in later life (though it generally answers the question, What do you do for money if you’re too old or disabled to work?)


Moving the list of things we need (which only wealth or welfare now supply) from the ‘gift’ category to the ‘entitlement’ category suggests that we earn them in a way that deposits surplus directly into the systems we wish to deliver as entitlements. To do this we must revisit that almost unspeakable phantom – the Social Contract. Life, liberty and other goodies simply cannot be delivered to every citizen throughout their lives. It costs too much. We see it in healthcare because the cost begins to eat into features of the product which are not simply bells and whistles. Some of those features can mean lifetimes of tremendous pain. Some just kill you. When we come into this world (or, more germane, into our majority) we discover doing without certain items may be not doing at all. There just isn’t any option to run off and find a patch of land and scratch a living, or die. The essential tools to do that are no longer free. We must have wealth to even escape. Most of what might be useful is already used – as somebody else’s right-of-way. So that’s not an option. Work is a lottery – let’s face it. Merit plays its part. But the hundred at the door are not unmerited because only one gets the job. Needing to eat doesn’t wait. Sickness may cost the very source of wealth that was supposed to pay for the medicine. And the actual distributions of work pretty clearly show that more than a little Confucianism is still operating no matter how much we like to pretend in ‘equal opportunity’.

But imagine, if the social contract were to put the citizen (the consumer of critical goods) back in the picture. Suppose it includes the statement, You can go in the military if you want. Or, you can choose to work from 2-4 years in two of the six essential services (food, shelter, health,…) to produce a surplus that will entitle you to have those goods and services (from any of the six categories) for the remainder of your life. Yes, I know it sounds like ‘fighting words’. But if you think about it, consider what it implies:

1. It shifts things like healthcare from welfare to entitlement in the true sense (you earned it through the surpluses you created).
2. It links the product of your labor for a brief part of your life directly to the services you may need for the remainder of your life. You, in fact, become the insurer and the insured.
3. It places an essential part of the social contract beyond the pale of either socialism (government) or capitalism (industry). Ruling classes may still come and go, but they no longer wield the threat of starvation or homlessness or treatable pain and premature death to exploit the labor need to operate their machinery.
4. It partitions those parts of production which are found to be essential to survive and function into a non-competitive compartment while leaving the other parts free to be exploited and fashioned by Capitalism. Viagras & viagras yet to be discovered can remain the grails of Capitalist pursuits. That doesn’t effect your ability to survive or recover from illness.
5. It encourages the participation of the consumer as the ‘owner’ of essential entitlements to be directly involved in their description and delivery. Consumers Unions for healthcare would likely have already appeared had their essential parts been part of an entitlement package.
6. It solves the problem of a perpetual state of war between left and right (liberal/conservative) and exposes the fact that Socialism and Capitalism are more alike in their failures to deal with these matters than they are different in their methods. Indeed, ‘liberal/conservative’ and ‘Socialist/Capitalist’ can be described as single-axis functions which mirror each other and, at their extremes may even resemble each other.

After a couple of years in the National Entitlement Service – producing for say, healthcare and first-time affordable homes – the citizen is free to decide, do I want to live with just minimums, or do I want some of those luxuries (dvd players, trips to the mineral baths, etc.)? Voila! the Capitalist labor force is still intact and ready to engage the worker and the incentives for advancement are still in place. What is missing is that the worker cannot be forced to work through fear of deprivation; they have to be coaxed with good salaries and nice perks. Now that’s a whole new work environment, no? Ah, can you hear the Capitalists sharpening their swords.


A few other things flow from the proposition of entitlements. Without going into any of them, I mention only a few:

Personal Housing in the range that satisfies the minimum provisions is removed from the sphere of cash transaction and real estate speculation. Ultimately, no one owns the dwelling place of anyone else, excluding luxury housing which is left to the vagaries of the market place as is all commercial real estate. In short, housing values change as a result of improvements and upkeep invested in them. It is primarily through that investment that the citizen obtains larger and better housing.

There is no “death tax”. There is no inheritance, either. The inheritable assets of the country are put into a pooled fund upon the death of a citizen (allowing for provisions for dependents and spouses/domestic partners, etc.). The fund is then distributed to citizens as an equal share entitlement upon their completion of National Service. A grubstake, if you wish, whose size is dependent on the size of the pool at the time of distribution. There are no individuals who begin adult life equipped with lavish and unequal privilege.

Entitlement service is non-profit and the Entitlment Fund is fully repaid for the work that machines do in the production of essential goods and services. Public education is also an entitlement. University research is directed towards improvements in the production and development of the entitlement sector and its economy.


Ok – that’s how z-axis thinks about the problem. It’s a rough and shoddy, but not a well-beaten trail. Like it or not, it is an alternative to right wing visionary thinking, which would breach any social contract I would willingly participate in. That’s it. Have at it!

z-axis


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Nikia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #45
54. That sounds cool
I don't know if it particuliarly practical or if more than a coule Congressmen would vote for such legislation implementing it. It does sound like a possible plan though that would be good for all.
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Old Lefty Donating Member (11 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 11:56 PM
Response to Original message
46. You honestly think handouts motivate people?
Just look at rich brats. If you took their money away they wouldn't be able to figure how to heat water to cook free rice.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 01:54 AM
Response to Reply #46
51. Is this handout thing a new code word?
It seems to be popping up a lot from the darkside. Since the Republican corporatists have been taking most of the handouts since Bush got into office, does that mean they are welfare queens with Cadillacs too?
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i_am_not_john_galt Donating Member (229 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #51
52. Would this include premium or just basic cable?
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