When danger reared its ugly head, DUers turned their tails and fled...

[DerekG]

There seems to be a self-congratulatory tone to many threads on the DU; we take solace in exposing the myriad deceptions and crimes offered by the Bush administration while the rest of the populace basks in its ignorance.

We shouldn't be so proud of ourselves, for an onslaught of posts reveals that many of us have a long way to go before we become 21st century Thomas Paines.

The only thing that annoys me more than the constant labeling of Dennis Kucinich as "unelectable" (ignoring the only man who proposes a Department of Peace and flocking instead to centrist, and uninspiring candidates), are the omnipresent invocations of leaving America upon Bush's reSelection.

If you are going to flee, then do it now. But by doing so, you forfeit your nobility, and leave the country with one less champion of truth and beauty.

Let me explain. I am a Christian. And what irks me about the Left Behind movement is that it extolls the "virtue" of being enlightened, thereby retreating from a world of conflict. This, of course, is contrary to the revolutionary (and progressive) vision the Christ of the New Testament laid bare: evil is to be resisted in the here and now, with every fiber of one's being.

I am donating to and campaigning for Kucinich, and I'll hold my nose and vote for any Democrat that receives the nomination. But I am wary, and prepare for the rise of fascism by devouring the works of Thoreau, Berrigan, Zinn, and King (the neo-cons would never allow a fair election to take place in November...never). As a 21 year old, I will also have to mentally prepare myself for being imprisoned when the draft is reinstated in Spring 2005.

But I will fight.

Although mine will be of non-violence, I understand if others employ other methods (after all, it was John Brown--devout Christian--who sparked the Civil War by initiating a failed raid on Harper's Ferry).

At least they'll be fighting.

But those who are shopping around for countries to run to would do well not to call themselves patriots or even humanists. You'll just be saving yourself and/or your family--understandable, but not admirable.

Since Tolkien is in vogue right now, I'll use this analogy:

You can return to the Shire while the world crumbles around you; I myself will be at the Black Gates with my brethren, staring down the armies of Mordor.

[maggrwaggr]

1. let's say you were gay in Nazi germany in 1934.

in retrospect, wouldn't it have been wise to get the hell out?

[DerekG]

3. They are fascists...

But too many people here use the Holocaust as an excuse for leaving America when the parallel is not entirely apropos. We are the last line of defense against martial law; the horrors of Buchenwald and Dachau should not deter us.

[HereSince1628]

9. Seems to me there were French and Polish forces in exile

during wwII. Surviving to fight another day is a plan for some conflicts.

Actually, outside of running away from the political fray, leaving the country might be as good advice as was 'Go West' by Horace Greely.

What young person could be blamed for following the money?

[plurality]

48. the french and polish also had the uk, russia, and us fighting for them

who's figthing against bush? it seems to me if we keep running from evil while no one stays to fight, eventually there'll be nowhere left to run.

[burrowowl]

2. Bravo!

Good rant. It may be our last chance to fight: see Will Pitt's publication of a survior's letter from Truthout.
But some at DU don't even know the difference between libertarian and socialist, liberal and neo-liberal, etc. And if this is a sample of America, I'm sorry, I'm a tad pessimistic.
I'm fighting too, but the years of Raygun have taken a toll as to education, getting things mixed up, being able to swallow propaganda, not knowing how to define a problem, having to win at all costs even when it means aping the opposition, etc.

[Beaker]

4. consider me as an elf then, heading for the gray havens-

If you want to use a Tolkien analogy, how's this:

In the wake of 9-11, the Council of Elrond, meeting in Rivendale, voted unanimously to give unto Sauron the One Ring of Power as he had requested...the time of the Liberals is over in this middle earth- we are about to leave these shores, never to return...

[0rganism]

5. When I was 21, I felt like you do now

I had nothing to lose by getting my head smashed or my face maced in civil disobedience. I stood in the protest lines against the current resident's father, and paid in blood to do so. I scorned those who'd rather abdicate their civic responsibility and live the "normal" life.

Now I have a wife and child, and a responsibility to do what I can to support them both somehow. Even if I stay to fight the fascists, you can damn well bet I'll do everything I can to help them get out of this country before the borders close. Through my own sloth, perhaps, I did my part to allow this fascist takeover to happen, but my child is an innocent. He deserves a chance to grow up in a free country.

[DerekG]

19. Actually, I'm responsible for several people...

Although I'm a student, I am not the normal college dormer. I stay at home and take care of my mother and grandmother. I have a lot to lose in this.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

20. i know many older men and women who have the courage to STAND without fear

against the DARKNESS...Phil Berrigan was NO spring chicken and was being arrested nearly up until the day he died! and the nuns and activists at the SOA in Ft Benning GA are STANDING every day!....i am 52 and STAND with them...my grandchildren STAND with them too
we need to surround ourselves with these good people...always stay young at heart!

Derek ...God Bless you

[ClintonTyree]

6. One day.............

your youthful idealism will cede to middle age practicality. Until that time, keep on swinging!

[Ardee]

14. I hope you are wrong

I hope that this poster continues his fight, renews his energies, combats the forces that are destroying our nation throughout his life. I hope that you ,yourself, find the strength and wisdom to overcome your middle aged ennui and join those of us who do not lose the desire to make our nation one which we can all be proud tpo call our own.

[kodi]

7. battles rage on many fronts, who is to say yours is the most righteous way

i find your pious attitude and ignorance a prima fascia example of why many people in this country think of the word idiot and liberal in the same moment.

let me explain, i am not a christian and do not turn the other cheek when accused of hypocrisy by a gross ideologue who thinks he has found the next political messiah when it is merely the next flavor of the week for the inexperienced.

i have neither time nor respect for those who hold high their moral superiority and chastise others for not following their path to enlightenment and plans for action. Even Dr King did not do so during the civil rights struggle and you are no Dr King.

your post is the sign of a weak mind, a pitiful mind and one which in a single post disenfranchises itself from the moral mission it intended.

btw: john brown was a murderer long before he ever reached harpers ferry

[REP]

8. Amen, Amen, Amen

Thank you for this outstanding post. It saved me much typing, and you made your points more succinctly than I would have.

[Robb]

10. My reaction as well

Succinct, and very well said. :thumbsup:

[Gin]

11. I like DK....and all he stands for....timing is everything....and the

USA Inc. is not ready for the ideal he puts forth. I am ready for it, but not enough are.

So, I pick another and fight the good fight in my own way.

His message will take hold, if not this time, soon.

[tinanator]

25. how in the hell do you know this?

do you extrapolate from the results of fixed elections? Corporate polling? Internet mumblings of keyboard jockeys? Do you look at yourself as more highly evolved and/or different from any other citizen? Any of those sources should be looked at with a little bit of wariness, at the very least. If you know this for a fact, I also know for a fact that Dennis Kucinich would attract unreal numbers of Republican voters. It may be the centrist types who are the hard sell, but if they are truly ABB, they should be a given.

[Ardee]

15. My word how vitriolic

I can only assume that your over the top response to that poster was caused by his striking of a nerve or tweaking your conscience.

I imagine that, a couple hundred years ago or so, when the founding fathers attempted to rally the colonies to their cause, there were those like you who insulted, denigrated and shut their ears to their cries. Luckily for the nation, folks like that were in the minority then.

[Snow]

38. I didn't find him vitriolic,

and I think he was reacting to the judgemental tone of the original post. I think your assuming that his reaction is due to some unstated inner angst is unwarranted and unfair. Your historical perspective (and self-righteousness) I find lacking as well. For starters, the 'founding fathers' rebelled against the king of england from here - not in england. The original colonists came here mostly just to make money in typical colonial fashion, but there were some who found themselves at odds with the government and church of england - so they left. And if you read something other than a school history textbook - I recommend Zinn's "People's History of the United States" - you'll find that the rebels against england were in fact a minority. Was that lucky? I don't know - try a mind experiment - how different would the world be if the american revolution had never happened? My sense is, not very.

[Ardee]

42. really? You must lack standards then

The response included the following:

piously ignorant...gross ideologue...no respect for him.......displayed moral superiority....accused him of having a weak mind and a pitiful mind.

That you find no vitriol , that you in fact adopt the same tone in accusing me of having read no history, to which I will not stoop to call YOU ignorant as did the poster in question to the thread starter, shows not that the poster in question was not vitriolic but that you have little sense of polite debate.

[Snow]

43. Both your posts show a note of anger that I find a bit bewildering

frankly. I did not "accuse you of having read no history", and I raised a couple of legitimate debating points that you ignored - instead you state in your subject line that I must lack standards. I find myself in agreement with the angry response to the original post, not because of the poster's choice of standing at the Black Gate, as it were, but because of his intolerance of other choices and his black-and-white view of the world. Several other posters besides myself have pointed this out; no need to restate it but there it is. That sort of self-righteousness can be both offensive and alarming. Your angry response to my post is also a bit odd. And please don't exaggerate and misquote me again if you choose to respond.

[Ardee]

46. In the interest of polite debate

I will not continue this silliness other than to note that your standards appear more flexible than they should. I would guess that your agreement with that post I characterised as vitriolic colors your judgement. Below are, again, the words and phrases that led to my definition of that post and stand as eloquent proof, a shame you cannot see and choose instead to denigrate my view of history ( an by the way I read that Zinn book)instead of dealing with a simple call for rational posting:

The response included the following:

piously ignorant...gross ideologue...no respect for him.......displayed moral superiority....accused him of having a weak mind and a pitiful mind.

[pretzel4gore]

16. John Brown was a hero in 1860's...

and he remains one now, despite generations of southern sympathiser media.
meanwhile, please keep focused on bushwack and the mighty dwarf
btw liberal? who's liberal? if bushwack ever gets overthrown, i wanna see executions! lots of them....

[ElsewheresDaughter]

22. you are wrong ..MLK evoked his Spirituality always it was his message

[Selwynn]

32. ABSOLUTELY - man, this post was insulting.

I suppose the kid has good intentions, but it was an absolutely insulting read.

[welshTerrier2]

12. sitting in judgment

i agree with much of what you wrote but disagree on one key point ...

and that is where you state that leaving the country is "not admirable" ... i would say, it might or might not be admirable ...

did those who stayed in this country and were put in jail do a better job protesting the vietnam war than those who went to canada? can you show that they were more effective in ending the war than those who left ?? and if you believe that, were they more effective than those who served and protested the war from inside the armed forces? that took even more guts to do ... there's merit on either side of this argument ... sometimes it's better not to be a victim so that you live to fight another day ...

I also think you overstate the case you're making ... DU'ers turned their tails and fled ... i'll bet you very few DU'ers leave the country ... i see no basis for your questioning the commitment of DU'ers to fight for what is right ... we're in a war here ... why criticize the other soldiers for not being as pure as you see yourself?

and, since you mentioned your religious beliefs, let me cite the conduct of a worldwide spiritual leader when confronted with tyranny and oppression in his own country ... the Dalai Lama is living in exile travelling the world ... do you think his conduct is "not admirable" ??

[LeahMira]

13. Take a closer look...

As a 21 year old, I will also have to mentally prepare myself for being imprisoned when the draft is reinstated in Spring 2005.

I "picked on" this sentence, but first of all want to say that I admire your comments and, speaking as a 59 year old, I'm very reassured to know that people like yourself are part of the "younger generation."

I hope you read the response from "Organism" already. As life has gone on for us in the "older generation," we have made commitments based on the circumstances that existed at the time we made them. In so doing, we gave up the freedom you enjoy now. We have ties of love, and those are what make life meaningful and free, but in a different way.

Don't imagine, though, that we are not fighting. You will resist the draft, but my generation also resisted it and we will advise and help you. Not only that, but while you see only a bunch of discussion on this board, what you don't see, and can't see on the internet, is that some of us are working in other ways. Some mentor children in schools, some spend an evening or a Saturday volunteering in neighborhood community centers, some donate to charities, some work for non-profits, some do other things.

As you go on, you may come to depend on this "infrastructure" that we have built and maintained over the years. It will be there to support you. We aren't going anywhere.

[Snow]

17. My wife's recent ancestors fought a vicious takeover of their

country by a foreign military fascist state. Her great-great aunt got slashed to pieces then burned by assassins. Her great uncle got killed in guerilla war. A number of her relatives moved outside the borders to a more remote location to the north - kinda like Canada - and continued resistance, rebellion, and warfare from there. They lived through the whole thing. Her mother, who was a schoolteacher, didn't fight physically, but resisted the mandates and rules imposed by the outsiders, and was threatened with very severe punishment, something she likely escaped only because of the respect she was held in by the other schoolteachers, many of whom were from the occupying country.

There're a variety of ways to resist and oppose an invading force in your home country - and I think we can regard the BFEE as equivalent to an invading force - and some of those ways include active resistance from outside the country. Sometimes other choices include getting slashed to death, and if making that choice would be an effective route to resistance, then so much the better. However, I have family who depend on me - and threats to me threaten them as well. At this stage I don't feel I have a right to put their well-being in jeopardy. My great-great-aunt-in-law remained in a place of danger because her family was already at risk and because what they were doing in terms of resistance would have been completely lost if they had left the country - as indeed happened later when her husband did leave. But there are numerous ways and we shouldn't be hasty to condemn others choices without considering their circumstances.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

18. i'll be standing with you at the Black Gates....well said!

:toast:

[spooky3]

21. I personally am a weakling but I do have a checkbook.

Or credit card to be more precise. And I am doing what I can to help the Dems I like and will do more when the primary season ends.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[alcuno]

24. Welcome to DU, joe. I'd have to ask what you call preventing

men and women whose enlistments are up from leaving? Same with retirees. It is not a draft in the Vietnam-era draft, but to continue to call it an all volunteer army, is not accurate either. Bottom line is that they are being kept in the military AGAINST THEIR WILL. In Illinois, they have called up three more National Guard units. These people chose to help with the defense of the country and there is NO ONE who has yet coherently explained how invading Iraq is defending America.

Understand that when Democrats talk about the draft what they are really talking about are decisions to go to war being made by the "haves" and the actually fighting of the war being done by the "have nots." When making that case, you had better have a much better rationale than what we have been given.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

28. easy to say when you served in a peacetime military

[welshTerrier2]

27. look a little deeper

welcome to DU, guynamedjoe ...

i think you need to separate the pre-election actions of this administration from actions they might very well take if bush wins in 2004 ...

there's no denying that bush's goals of perpetual war have dessimated our military ... day after day we see news stories talking about troops whose rotations are up but they are not being allowed to return home ... military pay is being cut ... veterans benefits are being cut ... the military needs more slaves to pursue bush's policy of global warfare ...

that's hardly paranoia ...

and what the democrats are calling for also requires greater scrutiny than you gave it ... i doubt we would be at war now under a democratic administration ... and if we were, i assure you there would have been a much greater international participation ... bush's arrogance ensured that didn't happen ...

Rangel and other democrats are not calling for a draft because they want to continue bush's insane, hawkish and illegal policies ... they are doing so to achieve a fairer burden to defend the country ... right now, that burden is primarily borne by the poor ...

[Terwilliger]

30. Democrats should be fighting Bush...

not blanching against the inevitability of his policies.

[Redneck Socialist]

29. Welcome to DU Guy

There is a lot of "chatter" about the Bush misadminstrations efforts to prepare for the draft in 2005. Here is the official Selective Service site and if you do a search you will find a lot of other info related to this. http://www.sss.gov/perfplan_fy2004.html

Another related point, all the people involved in bushCo's wage slave labor, I mean "guest" labor plan will be eligible for the draft as well.

I don't think I'm being paranoid, but I am starting to go "hmmmmmm..."

[Snow]

35. One point, Joe -

looking at the democrats who were proposing reinstating the draft, they turn out to be the same people who are the only members of the House seriously pushing for bush's impeachment. So what's their motivation? At the time they were doing it, it was intended as a wakeup call, a way they could see to catch the attention of a broad group of people who otherwise don't pay attention to politics - "look people, your kids are going to get hauled off to some foreign country and shot at if we don't do something now!". People, like yourself, didn't see that message when they did it, so it probably wasn't a very good idea - but it did raise awareness of what's coming potentially. Things are rarely as simple as we'd like them to be - including choices to leave the country and whether that's a right or wrong thing to do. I would hope we'd develop better discernment than making blanket condemnations based on simplistic assumptions.

[Selwynn]

31. You know what pal, you do what you feel is best...

..and I'll do what I feel is best regardless of however you judge it.

Jesus said something else, he said: judge not, least you be judged yourselves. You don't have the right to pass judgment on my life decisions or the life decisions of anyone else you don't even know because you read some posts on a fucking forum. If and when individuals find themselves confronted with decisions about "staying or going" those decisions will be decidedly personal in nature. And there will be a lot of factors to consider, many that you don't have the first fucking clue about. Why? Because you don't know me, you don't know them, you don't know the details of the lives of anyone where, with all its complicated nuances.

You try to sound rousing or inspiring but in the end, Mr. "Christian" all you are saying is, "If you don't do things the way I think you should, you're not worthy of being called a patriot or a "humanists" Yeah, gee where have I heard that before. Oh that's right - I remember that speech last time when it was "you're either with us or against the terrorists.

Why don't you get about 500 hundred more posts and then remember that the vast majority of people in the community you are "lecturing" have been here about five times as long as you, and maybe you might want to take two steps back from the self righteous rhetoric and remember that you don't have the first fucking idea about why I'll choose to make the decisions I'll chose to make in my life, whether they are the decision you would make or not.

A person could choose to get out of the country and be absolutely making the right choice for a plethora of reasons that you don't know. A person could choose to get out of the country and be making the wrong choice for a lot of reasons too. And guess what, so likewise a person could choose to stay in the country and be making the right choice as you try to state here. But a person could also choose to stay in the country and be making the absolutely wrong choice for reasons you know nothing about.

Not everyone is "called" to serve humanity in the same way. Are you suggesting that people who already live in other parts of the world are not capable of doing just or "enlightened" as you say, or "humanitarian" work because they don't live in the United States. Maybe I feel deeply called to live and work with the poor in Latin America instead of work in the realm of politics in the United States, so I decide to move out of the country. Who the hell do you think you are to judge that?

What I would like more than lectures on what I should or shouldn't do with my life if for more than a few people around here to stop lurking around the forums for a few months and then deciding to be a self-righteous lecturer of everyone else on how we should live our lives.

Sel

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

33. I agree, stay in America and fight (Go Dennis Kucinich!)

"But those who are shopping around for countries to run to would do well not to call themselves patriots or even humanists. You'll just be saving yourself and/or your family--understandable, but not admirable."

Right on! Some of us can't afford to pack up our families and run somewhere - and where could we go anyway? This is our country and we aren't leaving.

[mitchtv]

53. at 59 y/o and having spent time on picket lines

on the streets and in Jail for the movement, I'll be damned if I'll have someone who has not done half of what i've done say whether or not my choices are patriotic. I now have a chronic health conditon that needs meticulous medical care(a transplant) and will continue my fight the way I deem fit- even if that means from Costra Rica. No One helped me out of jail but me by the way, and I don't expect any help from the new generation either.

[economic justice]

34. Derek........

Your level of maturity at 21 is astounding. I read this thread with a few of your responses and leave this reply with bucket fulls of admiration. In a nation that expects so much RIGHT NOW and instant gratification for everything, I have to applaud someone who thinks something is actually worth FIGHTING FOR! And not just in posting messages at DU or showing up for meetings....all admirable (to be involved at all is)....but you're saying something more. Much more. You, DerekG, are a bright, patriotic, persuasive young man with a gift. I have no doubt you will use it well.

edit: I don't support Kucinich and we probably disagree on many things....but what I find amazing, is the determination to better THIS country. You sound like a modern day Paul Revere warning not that anyone is coming and prepare to fight....but to ask people not to leave and prepare to fight.

[Selwynn]

37. Yeah and saying everyone who doesn't agree with him is unpatriotic

was a particularly "bright, patriotic, persuasive" and inspiring choice.

/takes a big breath

Look Derek, there are many people in the world who are compassionate, loving people who have chosen to be informed and are very passionate - who have strong spiritual beliefs and absolutely, absolutely, absolutely believe in the fight for justice and equality and a better brighter tomorrow.

But what I feel you, at 21, might want to consider is the fact that you will find such people making decisions to support another candidate than the one you support, and you'll find people making decisions to "stay and fight" or to move elsewhere. Some people might make decisions for the wrong reasons - but you know what, even if they do that doesn't give you the right to do anything but love on 'em and give them support. You can try to persuade them to your point of view without saying that if they don't see it you're way they're not real patriots or not good human beings. When you did that, that's the place where you lost a lot of really really good people here who probably actually agree with a lot of what you feel.

And you also need to realize that while some people may make some decisions that differ from yours because they are making mistakes, other people may make decisions that differ from yours because they are following the leading of their heart and conscience for reasons that you probably don't know anything about. It's not your place to judge where, when and how other human beings make the choices to be about the needs of fellow human beings, the cry of social justice, and the betterment of the human condition. It is only your place to continue to encourage others to care about those things and to follow their heart wherever it leads them, not question the manner in which they care.

[pasadenaboy]

36. Hey, my name is Derek G too

I don't support Kucinich because I think he is naive, and doesn't understand how the real world works.

Just because we don't support Kucinich, doesn't mean we are cowards.

Jeez, As one Christian to another, I would recommend you guard against self righteousness in believing your choice in politics is so much more enlightened than everyone else's. People can disagree and still be smart, honorable, moral people.

[DerekG]

39. I said I would vote for the other candidates...

Bush has to be stopped, I am just supporting the man who serves as his antithesis--Dennis Kucinich. What I abhor is that a considerable number of DUers foist the label of "unelectable" upon him.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

40. especially when polls here at DU have shown that MOST here agree

more with Kucinich on nearly every issue and have said that of all the candidates Kucinich's politics most closely reflects their own....so if they voted their hearts and minds Kucinich he would be "electable" as a matter of fact, would be the shoe-in hands down!

[Indiana Democrat]

51. No...

...that only points-out how incredibly far out of touch, and out of the mainstream, those who dominate the DU polls are.

This is a great place for information and to vent ideas and frustration, but let's not kid ourselves...

[Solly Mack]

41. I don't call myself a patriot nor would I

because I don't allow anyone to define what that means...

no matter who is doing the defining..they are basing it on what they think is best for others to do, think and feel..and that's kinda well, autocratic....and arrogant

Now, Paine was a propagandist...I enjoy his writings...but he was still a propagandist for the cause. Yes, he made good sense...but he was still a propagandist.

Yes, I like Paine.

Now, fleeing saves lives..so I hold no judgement against those who would flee a dictator.

Fighting can also save lives...and by and large, people are putting up the good fight...DU is filled with fighters...

Sometimes, people are just expressing their feelings and talking with others about their fears and concerns...they aren't actually plotting to leave....just discussing the possibility ...

[ShaneGR]

44. Perhaps some of us just stopped paying attention to DU

Perhaps we didn't care as much for the tone of the place, and we're waiting for after the primaries to start posting here regularly again.

Perhaps. BTW, who you calling uninspiring?

[Doomsayer13]

45. We cannot have fled if the battle has not been fought yet

The real showdown comes this November. It's a tad quick to accuse others of political cowardice when the real fight has yet to occur. Or are you suggesting that non-conformity to your candidate in itself is a marker of cowardice? If so then, I'm sorry, your post isn't worth all the emotion and anger you've put into it.

[Deja Q]

47. Right on!

People have told me not to commit suicide.

What I haven't done is to see which of these people have posted an intent to move to Canada out of the same reasoning I had for wanting to kill myself.

Let's hope the best for Kucinich.

And if a Centrist wins, let's applaud him when he's right, and chide the hell out of him when he's wrong.

[Indiana Democrat]

49. Kucinich is unelectable.

Sorry...I'm a realist.

But I'm with you on the "I'll flee if the idiot wins" posts.

Of course 99.9% of them are lies and hyperbol, but they look cowardly.

[supercrash]

50. wheeew...

Glad I am a Atheist , You thread makes you look crazy, and proves you already have a very diluted mind

You THINK you will stay and fight, ...but you have already given in to the church, they own your thoughts...and will tell you what to think your entire life

No need to "mentally prepare your self for being imprisoned"....you are already there and you don't even know it....Amen

Crazy Insane or Insane Crazy ?

Do the brainwashed even know they are brainwashed ?

[put out]

52. As a middle-aged health care worker, I will be preparing

myself to register with Selective Service. You may want to rethink calling others' patriotism or humanism into question. In fact, you might do a little thinking to begin with. If I am called to serve, maybe I will be saving you from having to compromise your principles.

[Rex]

54. It sounds as if you're ready for a fight

You talk the talk...