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Has the FAA ever told us why Flight 587 crashed in 2001 killing 246?

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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 02:43 PM
Original message
Has the FAA ever told us why Flight 587 crashed in 2001 killing 246?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/world/americas/1651984.stm

Passenger jet crashes in New York

Flight 587 was bound for the Dominican Republic when it lost an engine and nosedived into the Rockaway Beach residential area of the borough of Queens four minutes after taking off from JFK at 0913 local time (1413 GMT).


New York Mayor Rudolph Giuliani said there were no survivors among the 246 passengers and nine crew. A further six people who were residents of the Rockaway Beach area have been reported missing.

President Bush offered condolences to the families of victims.

"The New York people have suffered mightily and they are suffering again," he said.

"There is no doubt in my mind that they are a strong and courageous people." The FBI and the Federal Aviation Administration have stressed that there is no indication the crash was anything other than an accident.

White House spokesman Ari Fleischer said nothing had been ruled out, but added that no terrorist threat had been received.

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Jack_Dawson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
1. I think it was mechanical failure
or so the story goes...
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I guess the tail and both engines falling off could be classified as...
...mechanical failure? Hmmmm?

Don

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Kellanved Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. wait a moment
AFAIR first one of the drives went into reverse trust mode (something that is rather strange, yet not unheard of, with an Airbus; usually Boeing is the prime suspect for this kind of accident), the fin was sheared off as a result.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. When has the FAA ever said that is what happened?
Thanks in advance.

Don

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Kellanved Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. ok
The case was never solved. It was the hypothesis with the most credibility.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Would a bomb on the plane also fit this hypothesis?
Or perhaps a Stinger missile or two?

Don

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TomNickell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #10
17. No.
There is detailed information about what happened. The tail broke off because the rudder was cycled violently between its limits and this caused forces that exceeded the design limits for the structure.

The reason for the violent cycling of the rudder is the remaining controversy.

See my post below with quotes from an NTSB safety recommendation.
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cthrumatrix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
3. same day as 5 newspapers were to go ahead with their report that Gore won
in florida ...it came out 5 weeks later...coincidence i guess
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Now now now...you know that everything positive that happens for the BFEE
is just good luck! </JK>

The anti-grassy knoll peeps are gonna be all over you for even mentioning that...it hurts the parties image yadda yadda...
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parasim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
4. BBC.com's got some info on it
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parasim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
7. It is sad...
...that that same community had already lost 70 people on 9/11. It's a community of firefighters and police officers. ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1652833.stm )


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lostnfound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 04:59 PM
Response to Original message
11. Here's a link to the NTSB reports -- still under investigation
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Over 2 years later still under investigation? I wonder if that is normal?
Something don't smell right here. But lets not forget that there have been no more attacks since 9/11. Move along. Nothing to see here.

Don

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amber dog democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 08:40 PM
Response to Original message
13. Wasn't it pilot error?
for following too closely behind a heavier jet - and got caught in the vertices?
They must have been pretty strong to shear off the horizontal stabilizer.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. That was one reason they threw against the wall to see if it would stick..
...right after the birds in the engine scenario didn't pan out if I remember correctly.

Don

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TomNickell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. That's what's controversial....
It was a carbon composite tail structure. Which broke off after the plane hit vortices from an earlier flight.

The pilot followed his training, which involved cycling the rudder between extremes. Airbus says he shouldn't have done that. Says fancy composite tails are strong enough.

Airline says that's what the manual says to do.

Pilots say a tail shouldn't fall off no matter -what- the pilot does. Wanted to ground Airbuses 'til they got new tails.

At least that's what I remember of a story a couple of months back.

Overall, this 'tail' is weak even for a conspiracist theory.
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TomNickell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 09:25 PM
Response to Original message
16. Here's the official explanation....
http://www.ntsb.gov/Recs/letters/2002/A02_01_02.pdf

...Further, the Safety Board has learned that sequential full opposite rudder inputs (sometimes colloquially referred to as “rudder reversals”)—even at speeds below the design maneuvering speed 1—may result in structural loads that exceed those addressed by the requirements. In fact, pilots may have the impression that the rudder limiter systems installed on most transport-category airplanes, which limit rudder travel as airspeed increases to prevent a single full rudder input from overloading the structure, also prevent sequential full opposite rudder deflections from damaging the structure. However, the structural certification requirements for transport-category airplanes do not take such maneuvers into account; therefore, such sequential opposite rudder inputs, even when a rudder limiter is in effect, can produce loads higher than those required for certification and that may exceed the structural capabilities of the aircraft.

This safety issue was identified in connection with the Safety Board’s ongoing investigation of the November 12, 2001, accident involving American Airlines flight 587, an Airbus Industrie A300-600. 2 Flight 587 was destroyed when it crashed into a residential area of Belle Harbor, New York, shortly after takeoff from John F. Kennedy International Airport (JFK), Jamaica, New York. Before impact, the vertical stabilizer and rudder separated from the fuselage. ....

Before the separation of the vertical stabilizer and rudder, flight 587 twice experienced turbulence consistent with encountering wake vortices from a Boeing 747 that departed JFK ahead of the accident aircraft. The two airplanes were separated by about 5 (statute) miles and 90 seconds at the time of the vortex encounters. During and shortly after the second encounter, the flight data recorder (FDR) on the accident aircraft recorded several large rudder movements (and corresponding pedal movements) to full or nearly full available rudder deflection in one direction followed by full or nearly full available rudder deflection in the opposite direction. 4 The subsequent loss of reliable rudder position data is consistent with the vertical stabilizer separating from the airplane. The cause of the rudder movements is still under investigation. Among the potential causes being examined are rudder system malfunction, as well as flight crew action.
.....
Preliminary calculations by Safety Board and Airbus engineers show that large sideloads were likely present on the vertical stabilizer and rudder at the time they separated from the airplane. Calculations and simulations show that, at the time of the separation, the airplane was in an 8° to 10° airplane nose-left sideslip while the rudder was deflected 9.5° to the right. Airbus engineers have determined that this combination of local nose-left sideslip on the vertical stabilizer and right rudder deflection produced air loads on the vertical stabilizer that could exceed the airplane’s design loads. The Board notes that, at the time the vertical stabilizer and rudder separated from the airplane, the airplane was flying at 255 knots indicated airspeed(KIAS), which is significantly below the airplane’s design maneuvering speed of 273 KIAS.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. That is not an official explanation. It is a safety recommendation that...
...was released a few months (2/8/02) after the crash. I am more curious what caused both engines to fall off of the plane than I am about the tail. I would have though that in over 2 years time we would know this.

Don

http://usread.com/flight587/Engines/html/

<snip>The NTSB has indicated that that the engines separated from the plane in-flight after the Flight Data Recorder prematurely stopped working, but they have not indicated if the Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR) gives them a clear indication as to exactly when the separations occurred. Therefore, at this point we must rely on eyewitness statements which indicate the plane was headed approximately in a southeast direction as it was approaching the northern seawall of the peninsula.

The right engine separated first (after a very large explosion or fuel eruption or compressor stall/surge had engulfed most of the plane in flames and smoke). The plane quickly banked or rolled left almost 90 degrees after the liberation of the right engine, then it appears both the vertical stabilizer and left engine quickly followed (it also appears at least one large piece of the rudder had separated earlier, prior to the vertical stabilizer separating). It's important to note that the engines liberated long after the plane had flown out of control (as witnessed by John and Jackie Power and Witness Gamma), but the plane was not flat spinning when the engines departed as many experts (and some Investigators) have speculated. The reason I can say that so confidently is that of the dozens of witnesses I've spoken to, only two witnessed the flat spins that occurred at higher altitude, but many more saw at least one engine separate later in the timeline and none of them saw flat spins. The engines departed after the large explosion witnessed by witnesses Lynch, Conrad, Catanese, and many others. That explosion was not the cause of the crash because the plane had flown out of control before that. The earliest witnesses in the timeline we have located are Witnesses Alpha and Beta. They saw the plane within 30 seconds after takeoff and observed it flying normally for approximately 30 seconds after which they noticed a bright, white/yellow flash on the right side of the plane aft of the wing. An unbroken smoke trail began emerging from the plane at that point as it maintained its general attitude while it was losing altitude. Alpha and Beta say they lost sight of the plane within 10 seconds from that moment when the plane went behind a firehouse that was down the block from where they were sitting that morning. These gentlemen saw the plane before the out of control sequence witnessed by John and Jackie Power and Witness Gamma. Therefore, what Alpha and Beta saw is most compelling, especially since the smoke that followed the explosive flash was a steady, thick trail. This type of smoke trail is inconsistent with an engine simply backfiring (compressor stall or surge) as those events generally put out puffs of smoke. The loss of altitude they report is also very interesting as it clearly points to a severe loss of power/thrust.

What did Alpha and Beta see? It could have been a fuselage explosion. It could have been an engine problem, but the engine teardowns have identified no in-flight damage. Many experts agree the smoke trail these witnesses report could not have been compressor stalls/surges. We don't have many options left to us. And these witnesses agree the plane was intact at this point and no debris had fallen off the plane yet.

A source within the investigation described the 587 Investigation as looking for a needle in a haystack and they've yet to find the needle.

more

http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/11/12/newyork.crash/

Witnesses: Explosion and fireball

Moments after the plane took off, witnesses said they saw what appeared to be an explosion. Parts of the plane began breaking away and wreckage was found in at least four locations, Giuliani said.

"I was in my kitchen ...and I saw the plane hit the house behind my house," an eyewitness told CNN. "It was so low, I was ducking almost. Then (there were) huge fireballs, and I jumped out of the ... window of my house.

"It was like a bomb exploded." (Full story)

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