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Desertrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 04:51 PM
Original message
RW email...grrrr...have at it!
OK..got this from a friend in the midwest that I try never to discuss politics with...you 'll see why.

Have at it dear DU friends...I must go lower my BP now .
:evilgrin:

(the part in red was what really pushed up the ol' BP)

Peace...
DR


Democracy

At about the time our original thirteen states adopted their new
constitution in 1787, Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the
University of Edinborough, had this to say about "The Fall of the Athenian
Republic" some 2,000 years prior:

THE FALL OF THE ATHENIAN REPUBLIC... "A democracy is always temporary in
nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A
democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover
that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury.

From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who
promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that
every democracy will finally collapse over loose fiscal policy, (which is)
always followed by a dictatorship.

"The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning
of history, has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these
nations always progressed through the following sequence:

From bondage to spiritual faith,
From spiritual faith to great courage,
From courage to liberty,
From liberty to abundance,
From abundance to complacency,
From complacency to apathy;
From apathy to dependence,
From dependence back into bondage."

Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University School of Law, St. Paul,
Minnesota, points out some interesting facts concerning the most recent
American Presidential election:

Population of counties won by:
Gore, 127 million; Bush, 143 million;
Square miles of land won by: Gore, 580,000; Bush, 2,427,000;
States won by: Gore, 19; Bush, 29;
Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by: Gore, 13.2; Bush,2.1.

Professor Olson adds, "In aggregate, the map of the territory Bush won was
mostly the land owned by the tax-paying citizens of this great country.
Gore s territory encompassed those citizens living in government-owned
tenements and living off government welfare..."

Olson believes the U. S. is now somewhere between the "apathy" and the
complacency" phase of Professor Tyler's definition of democracy, with some
40 per cent of the nation's population already having reached the
governmental dependency" phase.

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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 04:54 PM
Response to Original message
1. I didn't know land could vote
It would be aggravating if it wasn't so silly! :silly:
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Desertrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. thats funny...my son said the same thing...
LAND CAN'T VOTE!

silly but they pass this sh*t around and believe it...us damn liberals...wanting to care about people ...what is wrong with us anywway?

Peace
DR
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hellhathnofury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 02:54 AM
Response to Reply #1
41. Have you seen the map they like to pass around?
We have little blue dots in a sea of red.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 04:56 PM
Response to Original message
3. Well,
Edited on Sat Jan-10-04 04:57 PM by ayeshahaqqiqa
at least this rightwinger just spews rw propaganda. I had one freeper who I helped at a Senior Center who, when she found I was a Democrat, said "You have no right to vote-or to breed." Since I couldn't avoid her at the place where I was volunteering, I quit volunteering. I now delete all her posts without reading them.
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Desertrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. holy sh*t!
never mind you were helping her!

Well, it was her loss, not yours....some people.

Man, that was hard!

:hug:
Peace
DR
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are_we_united_yet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #3
36. I bet she was just as proud as she could be
when her dumbass final got a chance to use the line.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 04:57 PM
Response to Original message
4. I think it has been proven that most government subsidies go to red...
states, farm subsidies et cetera. So I would say Professor is dead wrong about his second point. Also, I would ask when did one person's vote become more important than another person's? Are they more intelligent or more "American" because they live in "red states"?

Also, just how red are states thta Bush won by only a few hundred or a few thousand votes? There's a lot blue in those states and they could very well turn blue after Bush chokes the crap out of them for four years...
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Desertrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. they had a chart one time that blended the red& blue
states and most were a varying shade of purple.

I love the way the RW trs to divide us so simplistically just to turn us against each other...

utter BS spin

Peace
dr
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #5
23. Right-Wing Myths Exposed (a work in progress)
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Capn Sunshine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #23
34.  ^ ^This is a great article, well worth the time to read
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #4
32. or that most people living in cities and suburbs live in tenements?
What century is this professor living in?
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 05:00 PM
Response to Original message
6. So what does that make corporations?
The feed at the trough of government "welfare"

You know, some people just t'aint right bright.


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Desertrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. but corporations are run by them real rich people
and them real rich people vote red so that cancels out anything the RW doesn't want to think about...right?

"You know, some people just t'aint right bright."

AMEN!
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brainshrub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
8. Tylor: Conservative pundit of his time.
Edited on Sat Jan-10-04 05:36 PM by brainshrub
What would Tylor have used as evidence to back up his warning? There was no Democracy before, or since, Athens until the United States was formed.

Furthermore, the Athenian Democracy was going on strong before Alexander the Great conquered them.

Truth be told, the true champions of ancient Democracy were in Thebes. You've never heard of them because Alexander the Great burned them into the ground when they resisted his tyranny.

The Athenians, fearful of what Alexander might do to them, surrendered to him. Thus did Democracy die for the next 3000 years.

Alexander Tylor, if he did exist, was just another conservative wind-bag of his time. He didn't have the wisdom or foresight that our founding-fathers had. (Conservatives rarely do.) Tylor just echoed what the monarchists in Europe thought the fate of the Democratic experiment would be. They have all been proven wrong by the very fact that the nobility of old Europe have been swept away, and United States is still stands.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 05:05 PM
Response to Original message
10. There is sooo many historical inaccuracies and
generalizations in this that it's really hard to know where to start. Since Athens has progressed from a city state in the Bronze Age to a piece of the Roman Empire 2,000 years ago, where does this Prof. get the Athenian Republic from? At that time they were subject to Rome. Who is this Alexander Tyr? Or is this made up? If you want to have some fun, write the University of Edinborough and ask about this fellow. My gut feeling is that he doesn't exist.

The red part really fails any test of logic by equating the Gore states with crime. I mean this is the same leap of logic that says Saddam was responsible for 9-11.
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Homer12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
11. Dissect this Quote and you find the mindset:
Professor Olson adds, "In aggregate, the map of the territory Bush won was mostly the land owned by the tax-paying citizens of this great country. Gore s territory encompassed those citizens living in government-owned tenements and living off government welfare..."


Olson Treats Bush and Gore as Feudualistic when he compares and usues the word in the context of territory. In a Republic people vote for their represnetatives, they get more representation when there are more people in a smaller geographic area (hence the reason why Montana has few represntatives in congress).

Using the word and term territory in this context is not question of "who won" but is releated to "ownership". Olson is saying that Bushco owns more territory. Tyrants own territory Presidents don't; What a puke!
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SharonAnn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #11
29. What's interesting is that the "red" states receive more
Federal money than they pay in taxes and the "blue" states pay more money in Federal taxes than they receive. Almost without exception. And in some cases, the disparity is really large. For example, here in Tennessee (red state) we receive $1.13 from the Federal government for every $1.00 we pay in Federal taxes. I think in New York, they receive something like $.86 for every dollar they pay in taxes.

And, in the red states, there is a lot going on with drilling on public land, grazing on public land, getting water from public projects at almost no cost. Some entrepeneuring taxpayers.
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NavajoRug Donating Member (330 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #29
40. Those are excellent statistics, but . . .
. . . I have always come up with different results when I research them in different ways.

Part of the issue is whether payroll taxes are counted as "Federal taxes" and Social Security outlays are counted as "Federal spending" -- when these are counted this way, there is a natural skewing of the figures due to the preference of retirees to live in warmer climates. There is also a skewing of these figures toward a state like Florida, because many seniors who have homes in more than one place will use Florida as their "official" address because they can avoid paying income taxes there (the same is true for military personnel who are stationed overseas).

From what I've been able to determine, the difference between "donor states" and "recipient states" in Federal spending is largely due to two major factors: 1) the number of military facilities that are located in a state; and 2) the number of middle-class people paying taxes in high brackets in places like New York, New Jersey, and Connecticut -- due to the very high cost of living in those places.
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SheilaT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 05:15 PM
Response to Original message
12. Why does this feel so much like urban legend?
I really wonder how accurate this really is, but I don't have the means to check it all out. I'm especially doubting the murder rate statistic. The difference doesn't really make sense. And the population discrepancy is an interesting one. Gore voters voted in greater numbers. Bush won in places where a noticeably lower percentage of people voted. Which really does demonstrate that a low voter turnout favors Republican. (Which means, if you're a Republican, don't vote.)

This is further support for a true one person/one vote system of direct election rather than the stupid electoral college system.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. I'm sure if anyone has the time to verify all the 'facts',
the truth will be quite different than what was set forth in the letter. It's perfect RW propaganda though.
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mojowork_n Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. The source of the quote was even debunked on FR...
Or at least that's what my 8 minutes of Googling would indicate.

The FR post, at the end, that blows holes in this "source" actually makes for excellent reading, and concludes with the admirable motto, "war is poop"... Probably someone who's no longer active in that hothouse of lively, unfettered exchange of ideas...

http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/997781/posts

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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 05:32 PM
Response to Original message
14. just reply CLINTON WON TWO PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS
WITHOUT THE HELP OF HIS DADDY'S BUDDIES ON THE SUPREME COURT.
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Unforgiven Donating Member (613 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. Yikes
Edited on Sat Jan-10-04 06:26 PM by Unforgiven
Ouch, that's a stinger!




But on reflection that was when we were actually counting Democratic votes.




What is "our" right wing learning.
- Unforgiven
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #14
21. Not to mention the fact that GORE GOT OVER 500 THOUSAND MORE VOTES!
The county by county totals fly in the face of FACT.

The rest is just bullshit.
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. County vs County would be legitimate IF......
Each county had the same population.

How many counties are in the boondocks and have less than 25,000?
How many counties with major cities have more than 250,000?
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greekspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 06:04 PM
Response to Original message
16. Thank you for the chuckle!
Not one red statistic in that e-mail has any validity. We all know that it matters not how many counties, states, or acres a candidate wins...it matters only how many electoral votes he or she gets. The chestnut about the welfare votes is a golden oldie. I suppose that if the author had his or her way, Americans' votes would all count for varying amounts. WASPS get 2 points per vote, poor black inner city folk would probably get about 1/4.

Despite the fallacious nature of these statistics, they sway people, especially sheeple. "My GOD," I can hear it said, "its about time we white Kansans have more leverage than that trash from New York." :puke:
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 06:11 PM
Response to Original message
17. Who gives a shit about the population of the counties
Its meaningless.
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #17
27. Absolutely, it is fact that is not pertinent to voting.
It is impossible for all of the residents of any county to vote in an election even if felons were included.

Approximately 25% of the population in any township, city, county, state or country in the USA is under the age of 18.

2000 Stats:
202,609 -- Total Population over 18
186,366 -- Total Citizens (Not all residents are citizens eligible to vote)
129,549 -- Total Registered to Vote
110,826 -- Total Voted

Source: Reported Voting and Registration of the Total Voting-Age Population, by Sex, Race, and Hispanic Origin, for States: November 2000 File includes additional breakdown for each state.
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Desertrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
18. actually I posted this as a break...its just so off the wall wrong,
Edited on Sat Jan-10-04 06:20 PM by Desertrose
stupid, dumb, false and ignorant, I thought it was almost rather amusing in an "OMG the cat peed on the carpet again" kind of way.

Unfortunately some will take it seriously...no one on DU of course....
sigh...scary....

Peace
DR
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 11:57 AM
Response to Original message
20. I got more useless statistics for them...
Edited on Sun Jan-11-04 12:02 PM by Touchdown
Population of counties won by:
Gore, 127 million; Bush, 143 million;... population nation wide...Gore; 50,996,116...Bush; 50,456,169
Square miles of land won by: Gore, 580,000; Bush, 2,427,000;
States won by: Gore, 19; Bush, 29; Population of states won by Gore...117,261,934....population of states won by Bush...154,101,962 (meaning Bush states didn't care enough to vote)... http://home.cfl.rr.com/usainfo/
Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by: Gore, 13.2; Bush,2.1. Avg. 1998 divorce rate by region...New England 44,016...Pacific States...52,016...
The South...227,474...State divorce ranking percentage wise...#50 Mass at 2.4 %...#3 Oklahoma at 6.7%
... http://www.divorcemag.com/statistics/statsUS2.shtml


"In aggregate, the map of the territory Bush won was
mostly the land owned by the tax-paying citizens of this great country.
Gore s territory encompassed those citizens living in government-owned
tenements and living off government welfare..."

Average lease price for office space in south of Market San Francisco...$18 sq. ft.
Average pruchase price for grazing land in Wyoming $213 an acre.


See, we can all use statistics to support our bullshit theories, right?
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no_arbusto Donating Member (548 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Here's some more
Median value of homes in counties won by Bush $50163 Gore $68375
Mobile homes in counties won by Bush 5,372,554 (11% of total) Gore 2,020,627 (5% of total)

Numbers are fun when they work in your favor.
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
24. Could not find a University of Edinborough
There is a University of Edinburgh in Scotland

"Professor" Joseph Olson's email is Jolson@gw.hamline.edu

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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
26. Rebuttal
The ConWeb invents new ways to count votes to disguise the fact that Al Gore got more of them.

By Terry Krepel

The ConWeb is nothing if not resourceful in the face of cold, hard facts.

Take the cold, hard fact that Al Gore received more votes than George W. Bush in the November election -- 539,947 of them in fact, according to final election numbers as reported by The Associated Press in a Dec. 21 story.

The ConWeb, in its slavish devotion to Republican and conservative philosophy, has decided to ignore that particular fact.

A Nov. 29 NewsMax column by Neil Boortz is emblematic of the direction being taken by his employer and their compatriots. In it, Boortz cites the following "interesting statistics":

Counties won by Gore: 677; Counties won by Bush: 2,434.
Population of counties won by Gore: 127 million; Population of counties won by Bush: 143 million.
Square miles of country won by Gore: 580,000; Square miles of country won by Bush: 2,427,000.
States won by Gore: 19 States won by Bush: 29.
Average Murder per 100,000 residents in counties won by Gore: 13.2; Average Murder per 100,000 residents in counties won by Bush: 2.1.
Of course, counties, states and land masses don't vote for president, people do; nor does any alleged propensity toward criminality mean a person's vote is less valid. It's just another way to denigrate people who don't hold conservative beliefs, a favorite pastime of the ConWeb. Or, as Boortz quaintly puts it: "As long as there are people stupid enough to vote Democratic there will be people who are perfectly capable of screwing up even the simplest ballot."

Boortz cites no source for his statistics -- and therefore no way to acertain the validity of them -- save the murder rate comparison, which he attributes to Joseph Olson, a law professor at Hamline University in St. Paul, Minn. And even there Boortz is less than forthcoming; he neglects to mention that Professor Olson is also on the board of directors of the National Rifle Association, according to his Hamline biography, and has also been a proponent of boycotting gun maker Smith & Wesson for agreeing to follow government guidelines on firearm design and sales.

On Dec. 12, WorldNetDaily's Jon Dougherty suggests that mentioning something like Bush's loss of the popular vote is "overhyped rhetoric designed to undermine, undercut and underestimate Bush's legitimate election victory." Then, Dougherty quotes the exact same statistics Boortz used in his column (minus the number-of-counties count), thoughtfully updating the state totals but dropping Olson as a source. Either Dougherty is plagarizing Boortz, or they both got the same talking-points fax from points unknown.

Meanwhile, NewsMax asserts that Gore didn't win the popular vote at all.

A Dec. 20 story lists three differing vote counts from various sources, all of which list Gore winning by at least 300,000 votes. An attempt is then made to add a conspiratorial angle: "Some experts were saying that many of the state counts were incorrect, but all the stories from those Web sites have disappeared!"

Adding to the articles's "Huh?" factor is the very next line: "In any case, the absentee ballots have not been counted (and those are widely expected to favor Bush), and so no one can say what the true totals are at this time." Wrong; unless NewsMax is talking about absentee ballots discarded for not following legislatively mandated Florida election laws, all absentee ballots have been counted.

In another Dec. 20 story, it rehashes a report from Fox News Channel about an alleged 100 percent turnout in some precincts in Philadelphia "with an equally unbelievable 99 percent of votes going for failed Democrat nominee Al 'I'll Do Anything to Win' Gore." (Though FNC probably didn't say that last part.) After running down a laundry list of accusations of alleged vote fraud by Democrats it doesn't bother to elaborate on, the article sniffs: "It's laughable that Democrats still try to claim that Gore won the popular vote."

No, it's laughable (to the point of sadness) that even with their man heading for the White House, the ConWeb is so consumed with hate that it is unable to find any comfort in that victory.

But if it's not denigrating Gore and anyone who voted for him, the ConWeb is casting aspersions on the media-led recount of Florida ballots.

A Dec. 19 NewsMax story paints a dispute over two ballots in Broward County as evidence that "predictably, some of the media recounters are apparently giving the vice president every break they can" and the presence of NewsMax's buddies from Judicial Watch as "keeping media recounters honest."

In its sucking up to Larry Klayman, NewsMax overlooks another fact: Republican officials don't want any recount now that Bush has received that all-important Florida certification. The Fort Lauderdale Sun-Sentinel reports in a Dec. 19 story that Florida Gov. Jeb Bush, brother of you-know-who, opposes the recount out of fear of undermining Bush's legitimacy as president, and a Florida congressman argued with Tom Fitton of Judicial Watch over the issue in front of reporters.

Tucker Eskew, a Bush spokesman, has attacked the Orlando Sentinel for printing results of a recount in Lake County that gave Gore 130 votes, the Sun-Sentinel adds. “To publish illegal votes as legal votes would be to mislead the readers and the public,” Eskew told Orlando Sentinel reporters. “These are illegal votes and your paper is publishing them as legal votes.”

And a Dec. 27 United Press International story on a lawsuit to force an investigation of voting irregularities in Duval County quotes a Republican strategist as calling the Democrat-backed effort "racial profiteering" and that "people need to move on."

NewsMax clearly doesn't want to criticize any Republican for holding a position it opposes, though it has no problem whatsoever eviscerating Democrats for holding contrary viewpoints.

The we-won-so-screw-you sentiment of Jeb Bush and friends is echoed by --surprise, surprise -- the Fox News Channel. Fairness and Accuracy in Media reports that FNC's John Gibson, guest-hosting "The O'Reilly Factor" Dec. 15, doesn't want a full recount either: "George Bush is going to be president. And who needs to know that he's not a legitimate president? Al Gore? Jesse Jackson? His political opponents? How does it do any good for the country to find out that, by somebody's count, the wrong guy is president?"

Gibson did suggest that the pursuit of truth could merely be delayed until it no longer mattered, FAIR reports: "How about, if you want to do this thing, we lock those ballots up until George Bush is not president, so nobody can go use these ballots to undermine his position, to undermine the position of this country, to throw this country into chaos. If you want to know, if historians want to know, fine. Know some day in the future. You don't need to know now because he is president now."

Funny, you didn't read about any of this on NewsMax, not even to criticize the stances of Jeb Bush and John Gibson. Oops -- we forgot the NewsMax Commandment: Thou shalt not speak ill of the Bush family or Fox News. (The more sycophantic the better, really, as illustrated by an embarassing Dec. 28 piece by John LeBoutillier written after he was a guest host on "Hannity & Colmes.") And thou shalt not speak well of any Democrat.

Posted 12/28/00
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NavajoRug Donating Member (330 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #26
38. I think we should give up all references to the popular vote . . .
. . . in 2000.

It has absolutely nothing to do with the results of the election, and in fact there was a lot of speculation at the time that the results would be the exact opposite -- Bush would win the popular vote, and Gore would win a majority of the electoral votes.

I distinctly remember what happened when this exact scenario was presented to Al Gore a few days before the election, and I was quite impressed with his enthusiastic, intelligent response about how irrelevant the popular vote was in a Presidential election.
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
28. Background on Joseph Olson
Source: A Silly Flap
At least they spelled my name right.

As Minnesotans line up for training classes required to get a permit to carry firearms in public, a 19-month-old company has stepped to the forefront with the help of a unique opportunity provided by the state's new handgun law.

The American Association of Certified Firearms Instructors Inc. is one of six organizations named in the law as qualified to train teachers whose courses meet the education requirements.

The other groups are much older, more established and not for profit.

But the for-profit AACFI had an edge in getting into the field: Its founder and president drafted the handgun law, including the training provisions.

While some say that may amount to a conflict of interest, Joseph Olson defends, even advertises, his roles as both entrepreneur and well-connected gun-rights lobbyist at the State Capitol.

"The whole process was completely transparent," he said. "Anyone who wanted to know who AACFI is was told. I'm trying to figure out how there can be a conflict of interest if everyone knows."

Since the handgun law took effect May 28, the firm has registered 50 firearms instructors with the state, nearly one-quarter of the total certified, who have trained about 2,000 permit candidates.

The other groups named in the law as qualified to certify instructors are the National Rifle Association (NRA), the state Bureau of Criminal Apprehension, the state Department of Public Safety, the state Board of Peace Officers Standards and Training and the Minnesota Association of Law Enforcement Firearms Instructors.

Including sales of training materials and business services to instructors, gross revenues have reached about $75,000 for Olson, of Roseville, and AACFI's vice president and only other shareholder, Tim Grant of Richfield. Grant was the lead strategist in getting the gun law passed.

Olson's claim of transparency has at least one doubter in Gov. Tim Pawlenty's commissioner of public safety, Rich Stanek. On June 17, seven weeks after Pawlenty signed the handgun bill into law, Stanek wrote to Olson requesting information about AACFI and his affiliation with it.

"I'd never heard of it," Stanek said Tuesday. "The governor had no idea; the governor's staff had no idea."

As of Tuesday, Stanek said, Olson hadn't replied to his letter.

Conflict of interest?

Olson, a professor at the Hamline University School of Law in St. Paul, is also president of and registered lobbyist for the Minnesota Gun Owners Civil Rights Alliance, which pushed for the law along with its subsidiary, Concealed Carry Reform Now.

"He wrote this bill, but I don't know if a lobbyist can have a conflict of interest," said Sen. Wes Skoglund, DFL-Minneapolis, an outspoken foe of the new handgun law. "Still, you can question whether there was additional motivation to feather one's own nest."

Another opponent of the law, Rep. Nora Slawik, DFL-Maplewood, was more critical.

"We've seen lobbyists slip language into bills before, but this goes beyond the boundaries of good legislation because there's a profit involved," she said. "It seems like a conflict of interest to me."

Skoglund and Slawik said they were unaware of the link between Olson and AACFI until a reporter told them of it Tuesday. But Rep. Lynda Boudreau, R-Faribault, chief House sponsor of the law, said she saw no problem with its favored status.

"My knowledge of the association is limited," she said. "I have no beef with who does the training, as long as it is very thorough." Having just taken an AACFI handgun course from David Gross of St. Louis Park, a longtime gun-rights activist and a lawyer who helped Olson draft the law, she said it is excellent.

Olson said AACFI was incorporated in December 2001 and written into the bill in an effort to broaden the options for citizen handgun training. The only existing group that certified civilian trainers at the time was the NRA, he said.

"The legislators wanted an open and competitive training system," he said. "No one thought an NRA monopoly was desirable. There was a huge gap. Someone said: 'Why don't we do it?' "

Boudreau said that she wanted the list of state-approved trainer certifiers to be as broad as possible, but that no other groups came forward. If others want state approval, she said, they should ask her. "I'd be happy to include them," she said.

Fleeting opportunity

Under the law, handgun courses given by trainers certified by the six groups must be accepted by sheriffs as sufficient to satisfy the training requirement for a permit. The law also allows sheriffs to accept any "other satisfactory evidence of training in the safe use of a pistol."

If other training groups want inclusion in the law, however, they would have to wait at least until the Legislature meets again next year. And that may be too late to catch Minnesotans' wave of interest in handgun training.

"It's going to be a short-term thing," said Dallas Russ Jr., a longtime Thief River Falls gunsmith who teaches courses under NRA certification. "After the first year, it's going to drop back off."

Olson said he expects that AACFI will train no more than 200 instructors in Minnesota and that demand will decline after that. So, he said, the firm hopes to expand to Colorado, which recently enacted a liberalized handgun law, and Wisconsin, where gun-rights activists are pushing for one.

In Minnesota, he acknowledged, "we got the jump on training people." The first 5,000 copies of AACFI's training manual, "Everything You Need to Know About (Legally) Carrying a Handgun in Minnesota," are nearly sold out, he said, and a second printing is likely within a month.

The 250-page book, written by Joel Rosenberg of Minneapolis, a gun-rights activist and science fiction author, sells for $24.95. It is part of a packet of materials that AACFI requires its trainers to supply to students.

The book's appendix includes a list of all 125 Minnesota legislators who voted for the handgun law and an exhortation to readers to thank them. An AACFI brochure touts the group's courses because its "staff continues to work at the Minnesota State Capitol to defend, support and protect your Second Amendment rights."

Instructors pay AACFI $500 for a two-day training course taught by Olson and Grant, then $300 a year for a listing on its Web site (at http://www.firearmsinstructors.biz) and other business services.

"We tell each trainer they can expect to have 300 to 500 students in the first couple of years," Grant said. With 10 to 15 people in each seven-hour class paying $125 to $200 apiece, he added, it can add up to a good part-time job for instructors.

Grant, who became active in the handgun rights movement after his cousin was killed in a drive-by shooting in Golden Valley in 1996, quit his job as a national sales manager for Norstan and Siemens two years ago to devote his full time to the crusade. He describes AACFI as the next step in a process that he hopes will end with widespread cultural acceptance of carrying concealed handguns in public.

"What it's really about is implementing this thing right," Grant added. "We are the best-qualified people to teach this course. Sure, we'll make a little money. But I spent close to $100,000 of my own money getting this passed."

Conrad deFiebre is at cdefiebre@startribune.com.



I can understand why the story hasn't developed any legs. Take a look at the BCA website. Of just about 200 validated trainers in the state of Minnesota, only around 25 percent are affiliated with AACFI. (That's in the article, by the way.) Some are associated with colleges — largely technical colleges — some with the NRA, some with local sheriffs (now there's an interesting conflict of interest), and some are just private trainers with no association.

So why all the flap? The Star Tribune is in a tough position. They predicted doom and gloom if the MPPA passed. The MPPA passed. The only gloom to materialize is that of the antis, as there has been no doom. No permit holders have gotten involved in "road rage" incidents; even when "irked", guns have not leapt from the holsters of permit holders, despite the Star Tribune's predictions that just that would happen. A tiny percentage — a small fraction of one percent — of stores have posted signs prohibiting permit holders from carrying. It really is a non-issue.

Kind of embarrassing for the Star Tribune, and for the antis. Good.

It shouldn't have been a surprise. In all of the 30-odd other states where similar laws have been passed, there have been similar hysterical productions, and those haven't come to pass either.

Eminently predictable — and, in fact, I predicted it, in my other blog. See this.
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. So, this e-mail is a Kneel Boortz screed, then.
Figures.:eyes:
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Bozvotros Donating Member (394 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. Hey Neil...
You forgot to report on the rates of human-barnyard animal sex acts in red vs blue states...
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devinsgram Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
33. If this wasn't so stupid,
it might really be funny.
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are_we_united_yet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 01:13 AM
Response to Original message
35. How'd you like this guy
to be your Keynote speaker at graduation? Would that suck or what?
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thebaghwan Donating Member (998 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 01:24 AM
Response to Original message
37. Here is Professor Olson's Email Address-Why don't you say Hi!!!!!!!
jolson@gw.hamline.edu
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #37
42. We shouldn't stop with the guy's email
We should contact every faculty member of Hamline University and voice our displeasure with the guy. In addition, we should explain why the guy is a doofus.

Another group that should be contacted should be members of the press. Specifically the student newspaper and the local newspaper if possible.
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Zomby Woof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 01:48 AM
Response to Original message
39. kind of sad really
For a group of people who were so smugly certain that Bush "won", and have now had their way for 3 years now, they seem to be the ones who need to "get over it". Sore 'winner' syndrome?

I learned long ago you can't reason with a sick mind (which is why I rarely talk to myself), so it's pissing in the wind to rebut. I figure you won't, and it does have a cathartic value sharing this tripe with friends who can laugh along with you.

Best to laugh with pity at the poor soul who obviously has some deep-seated insecurities about the wretched state of affairs under Bush, and is experiencing technical difficulties in the cerebral department. Cognitive dissonance prevails with the wingnuts. Don't let them get to ya!

Want to lower that BP? Watch Dennis take it to Dean with the pie chart. That caused Katy and I to laugh spasmically. :D

:hug: :loveya:
ZombySon
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 04:26 PM
Response to Original message
43. That's Bush for ya. President of Dirt!
LOL!
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