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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 10:14 PM
Original message
16 or more strange biologist deaths in 4 months: the odds
Edited on Sat Jan-10-04 10:56 PM by TruthIsAll
This analysis uses the same mathematics we used to compute the probability of 15 or more JFK witnesses turning up dead within a one year period. It's the SAME problem, but in this case the time interval is even shorter - 4 months, making it even more improbable.

We seek to calculate the probability of at least 15 microbiologists dying UNNATURAL deaths within a 4 month period. The deaths were a combination of homicides, suicides, accidents and undetermined origin.

The key VARIABLE is: How many world-class microbiologists are there? Not knowing this number, I have calculated the probabilities using three cases: 1000, 2000, 5000 biologists.

For a 4 month period the probability is 1/3 the full one year probabilty, which is what I initially used for the computations since one year mortality data is available.

To obtain the odds of unnatural death, I used 1999 mortality data:
http://www.nsc.org/lrs/statinfo/odds.htm


IMPORTANT NOTE: THE PROBABILITY OF 16 OR MORE STRANGE DEATHS OCCURING IS MUCH LOWER THAN IT IS FOR 15 OR MORE DEATHS. I USED 15 DEATHS AND 5000 WORLD-CLASS BIOLOGISTS AS ASSUMPTIONS BECAUSE I HAD THEM FROM THE PRIOR JFK ANALYSIS.

HERE IS THE RESULT, ASSUMING 5000 WORLD-CLASS BIOLOGISTS:
FOR 16 STRANGE DEATHS TO OCCUR FROM A UNIVERSE OF 5,000 IN A 4 MONTH PERIOD, THE ODDS ARE ABOUT 1 IN 100 MILLION.

FOR 15 DEATHS, the probability is approximately 1 in 15 million.
Assuming there are 5000 world-class microbiologists in the world, the probability is 1/3 * 1/5,239,858 or 1 in 15.7 million.

Assuming there are only 1000 world-class microbiologists, the probability that at least 15 would die UNNATURAL deaths in a FULL calendar year is: 1 out of 21,230,606,601,227,800 or
1 in 21,230 trillion, 606 billion, 601 million, 227 thousand, 800).
For 15 deaths to occur in a 4 MONTH period, the odds are 1/3 of this or: 1 out of 63,690 trillion....


These are the mortality rates:
........................1 year...Lifetime
Probability of:
suicide.................0.000107 0.008197
homicide................0.000062 0.004739
accidental death........0.000359 0.027778
undetermined death......0.000014 0.001101

The probability of an unnatural death FOR ANY AVERAGE PERSON in A GIVEN YEAR is the sum of the probabilities of the four categories = 0.000542, or approximately 1 in 2000.

The probability of an unnatural death in a LIFETIME is the sum of the probabilities of the four categories = 0.041815, about 1 in 25.

The Poisson Distribution
Although the Normal (Gaussian) probability distribution is by far the most important, there is another which has proven to be particularly useful - the Poisson Distribution, which is derived from, and is a special case of the Normal Distribution.

The Poisson Distribution applies when the probability "P" for success in any one trial is very small, but the number of trials N is so large that the expected number of successes, pN, is a moderate sized quantity. The formula is: P(m) =a**m*exp(-a)/m!

In words, the Probability of EXACTLY m successes = a to the m'th power times the exponential function of (-a), all divided by m factorial.

If m= 15, m factorial = m! = 15*14*13*12*11*10*9*8*7*6*5*4*3*2*1

Now lets use Poisson to determine the probability of a given number of individuals from ANY predefined group meeting unnatural deaths within a one-year period.

The only assumption we are making here is the number of biologists.
Assume for the sake of argument, there are N= 1000

Let p= Probability of any individual dying from UNNATURAL causes within a given year = 0.000542
Let a= Expected Number of deaths = pN= 0.542
Let m= Actual Number of UNNATURAL deaths = 15

The probability of exactly m=15 UNNATURAL deaths within a given year out of a predefined group of N = 1000 is:

P(m) =a**m*exp(-a)/m! or p(15)= 0.542**15*exp(-.542)/15!

Here are the probabilities for m=1 through m=15 deaths occuring within ONE year:

Prob(X=m) = probability of EXACTLY m DEATHS
Prob(X>=m) = probability of at AT LEAST m DEATHS (the one we want)

column 1 is n, the number of deaths,
column 2 is the probability of at least n deaths,
columm 3 is the actual odds (for example, 1 out of 5,239,859)

m.......Prob(X=m)........Prob(X>=m)

Assuming 5000 biologists:
n deaths..prob...1 out of..
1 0.933
2 .753 1.33
3 .508 1.97
4 0.288 3.47
5 0.138 7
6 .057 17
7 0.020 47
8 .00670 148
9 .00196 510
10 .00051 1,939
11 0.00012 8,070
12 0.000027 36,485
13 0.0000056 178,135
14 0.0000010 934,300

15 0.000000190 5,239,859
For a 4 month period (1/3 of a year), the probability is is 1/3 times 1/5,239,858 or approximately 1 out of 15 million.
FOR 16 DEATHS, IT IS ABOUT 1 OUT OF 100 MILLION.

Here are the probabilties for other cases (remember, the probabilities are actually 1/3 of those given, since the time interval is 4 months or 1/3 of a year):
-----------------
1000 biologists
n....prob..1 out of
1 0.418 2.39
2 0.103 9.69
3 0.0177 56.26
4 0.0023 427
5 0.0002 484,018
6 0.000022 45,091
7 0.00000169 588,306
8 0.000000114 8,752,118
9 0.00000000683 146,245,847
10 0.000000000368 2,712,122,977
11 0.0000000000180 55,278,020,364
12 0.000000000000814 1,228,276,488,499
13 0.0000000000000338 29,551,271,527,958
14 0.00000000000000130 765,351,111,903,523
15 0.00000000000000004710 21,230,606,601,227,800


-----------------------------
2000 biologists:
n.......prob....1 out of

1 .661 1.51
2 0.295 3.39
3 0.096 10.38
4 0.024 41
5 0.005 195
6 0.00089 1,113
7 0.000136 7,343
8 0.0000181 55,093
9 0.00000215 463,452
10 0.000000231 4,321,227
11 0.0000000226 44,239,588
12 0.00000000202 493,399,077
13 0.000000000167 5,954,899,756
14 0.0000000000129 77,331,852,139

15 0.00000000000093 1,075,228,365,705

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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 10:17 PM
Response to Original message
1. Tragic coincidences not at all related to Frank Olson or anthrax or SARS
or AIDS or Mad Cow or

Accidentally-released documents reveal links between current
'non-lethal' weapons research and a Cold War chemical weapons
program cancelled in 1992 because of its treaty-busting implications.

(Austin and Hamburg - 6 January 2004) - Newly-released US government documents indicate that recent Pentagon research on so-called "non-lethal" weapons is a revived version of a weapons program that was cancelled due to the Chemical Weapons Convention. Elements of the decade-old program on incapacitating chemicals, called ARCAD (Advanced Riot Control Agent Device), have been re-initiated by the Pentagon's Joint Non-Lethal Weapons Directorate. The links that Sunshine Project Freedom of Information Act requests have established between ARCAD and recent research underscore how and why the Pentagon's "non-lethal" weapons program threatens treaty controls on chemical and biological weapons.

In 1992, the US Army's ARCAD program was supposed to have been terminated because of prohibitions in the Chemical Weapons Convention, which was then in late stages of negotiation. But it is now clear that elements of the program continued to operate under a new guise. As of 2002, ARCAD's legacy was being pursued with a new institutional base - the US Marine Corps-directed Joint Non-Lethal Weapons Directorate (JNLWD). Weapons development deemed legally unacceptable in 1992 has found new life with the "non-lethal" moniker, despite US ratification of the Chemical Weapons Convention and attacks on states alleged to be developing chemical and biological weapons....

http://www.sunshine-project.org/publications/pr/pr060104.html
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WhoCountsTheVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #1
88. "Advanced Riot Control" == Gassing "Free Trade" Protestors
It's already happening.
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #88
94. A google search review...
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Conspiracy News : Conspiracy Ink
... SEE NO EVIL: WHAT BUSH DIDN'T (WANT TO) KNOW ABOUT 9/11 On ... Don C. Wiley, one of the dozen distinguished microbiologists that have mysteriously died within ...
http://ipncomm.org/ConsInk/Index.htm - 28k - Cached - Similar pages

TOTAL INFORMATION ANALYSIS
... See also Microbiologists With Link to Race-Based Weapon ... Bush goes to work immediately through the executive ... Act, was the order that the mysterious death of Col ...
www.libertythink.com/totalinformation/2003_12_28_archive.html - 37k - Jan 9, 2004 - Cached - Similar pages

Citizens for Legitimate Government, Bush Election Coup 2000 2K ...
... ANOTHER microbiologist dies: Composite released in fatal hit-and ... OKs Intelligence Bill Dictator Bush signed legislation ... in *but another* mysterious plane crash ... Description: Pro-democracy activist group established to expose the Bush coup d'etat, and to oppose the Bush occupatio...
Category: Society > History > ... > Bush, George Walker > Opposing Views
www.legitgov.org/ - 101k - Cached - Similar pages

Federal Observer Articles - Federal Observer
... 2002-03-07 - Who was Philander Knox? 2002-03-06 - Bush of Arabia. ... 2001-12-27 - The Very Mysterious Deaths Of Five Microbiologists. ...
www.federalobserver.com/archive.php?section=Conspiracy%20Chronicles - 47k - Cached - Similar pages

Telecidal Tendencies
... With the Bush administration changing laws to ... including the supposedly explainable deaths of WMD ... Eleven microbiologists mysteriously died within five months of ...
http://telecidal.blogspot.com/ - 39k - Cached - Similar pages

Earthfiles.com
... January 3, 2004 - Mysterious Ice Circle in Michigan. ... George Bush Sign This 2003 MAJIC Document? ... 18, 2003 - Updated Whistleblower Microbiologist Speaks Out ...
Description: Environmental anomalies. Updated reports about science, medicine, the environment and real X-Files.
Category: Science > Anomalies and Alternative Science
www.earthfiles.com/ - 52k - Jan 9, 2004 - Cached - Similar pages

The DISH
... One of the foremost microbiologists in the United States ... and Steven Mostow died under mysterious circumstances ... on behalf of black people, the Bush machine stands ...
www.thedish.org/TheDISHv5No51.htm - 23k - Cached - Similar pages

UTMB News Release:UTMB CONSOLIDATES ADMINISTRATION OF BIODEFENSE ...
... and compete for $1.75 billion President Bush has asked ... down the hantavirus that caused mysterious deaths in New ... has served as a research microbiologist at the ...
www.utmb.edu/newsroom/02pr/nov02/cons_admin.htm - 10k - Cached - Similar pages

CBS News | Hong Kong Hotel Eyed In Mystery Illness | March 20 ...
... has already disappeared." Meanwhile, the Bush administration said ... virus," Dr. John Tam, a microbiologist at the ... by chance without causing the mysterious disease ...
www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/03/20/health/main544861.shtml - 45k - Cached - Similar pages

Where Anthrax and the 911 Timeline Converge
... September 11 20DEC2001 Ian Gurney The Very Mysterious Deaths Of Five Microbiologists ... single company has helped bankroll President Bush's political career. ...
www.networkingtheinternet.com/zxm102.htm - 32k - Cached - Similar pages

Overnight News Oregon Coast News Signal Archives May 10 2002
... justice oriented, and the ultimate death of free ... Michael C. Ruppert about eleven microbiologists mysteriously dead was ... Arafat said, "President Bush asked me to ...
www.networkingtheinternet.com/zxm115.htm - 31k - Cached - Similar pages

From The Wilderness Publications on the web @ www.copvcia.com
... of microbiologists at least three more microbiologists have died under mysterious circumstances in ... series exploding the lies told by Bush, Cheney and ...
www.appollonia.net/copvcia/ - 62k - Cached - Similar pages

Al-Muhajabah's Islamic Blogs Archives: July 18, 2003
... Dr David Kelly, a renowned microbiologist and advisor ... day some lobby journalists have mysteriously learnt of ... misinformation campaigns by the Bush administration ...
www.muhajabah.com/islamicblog/archives/2003/07/18.php - 30k - Cached - Similar pages

PAG E-NEWS:Vol.20; No.11; 8-15-2003
... about 9-11, the anthrax attacks, and the mysterious deaths of many renowned microbiologists. ... jaded
by the routine corporate favoritism practiced by Bush & co ...
www.morpheussoft.com/pipermail/pag_enews/ 2003-August/000108.html - 8k - Cached - Similar pages

Pravda.RU 40-thousand potential maniacs
... there are at least 40-thousand microbiologists, so if ... against the presence of George Bush, furious that ... four deaths caused by a “mysterious illness” were ...
http://english.pravda.ru/world/2002/02/25/26636.html - 62k - Cached - Similar pages

Above Top Secret News Archive Summary
... Mysterious, Ancient, and Lost Civilizations. ... Spooked by ‘Ghost Planes' Dead Microbiologists Linked To ... Officer Delivers Blistering Excoriation Of Bush Six Huge ...
www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/blogs/ news_archivesum.php?view=category - 67k - Cached - Similar pages

Above Top Secret News Archive Summary
... Earths People Hearing Persistent, Mysterious Hum Aren't ... Delivers Blistering Excoriation Of Bush Seeing Things ... Base After Attack Dead Microbiologists Linked To ...
www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/blogs/news_archivesum.php?view=date - 71k - Cached - Similar pages

DC Indymedia: newswire/77459
... Saddam said the truth, Bush lied. ... Here's the link for the Globe and Mail article on "The Mysterious Deaths of 11 Microbiologists." http://globeandmail ...
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Mikhail's Journal
www.livejournal.com/users/sirreal13/ - Similar pages

Search Results
... Eleven microbiologists mysteriously dead over the span of just ... secret intelligence agencies - and has Bush fingerprints all ... as well as any mysterious thefts of ...
http://democrats.com/preview.cfm?term=Anthrax - 71k - Jan 9, 2004 - Cached - Similar pages

GeekPress
... The latest conspiracy theory is about the "rash" of recent mysterious deaths among the world's leading microbiologists. ... The secret to George W. Bush's power ...
http://geekpress.com/2002_05_05_weekly.html - 28k - Cached - Similar pages


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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #88
95. A google search review...
Edited on Sun Jan-11-04 10:08 PM by TruthIsAll
Body Count: Fall-Out from the Bush Administration
... Track Dead People With Connections to the Bush Dynasty - Rense ... and Why: Missing/Dead Scientists The Very Mysterious Deaths of Five Microbiologists A Career ...
www.missouri.edu/~quinnl/news/bodies.html - 35k - Cached - Similar pages


UK Indymedia | UK Anti-militarism Newswire Archive
... Are the hawks in the Bush-Cheney Oilygarchy and Blair ... death toll of at least 14 renowned microbiologists who have died in mysterious circumstances over ...
www.indymedia.org.uk/en/topics/anti-militarism/newswire/archive18.html - 38k - Cached - Similar pages
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Anthrax attacks and microbiologist deaths
... Bush signs it into law the same day (see October 26, 2001). ... November 12, 2001: The beginning of numerous mysterious deaths of renowned microbiologists. ...
www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline/main/AAanthrax.html - 101k - Cached - Similar pages


Death by Association
Take the six dead American microbiologists linked to the hoax anthrax attacks. When the source of the high-grade anthrax was traced back to a Pentagon lab, microbiologists started dropping off like flies - five died between 12 November and 12 December 2001 in a series of suicides or heart attacks, usually in remote rural areas, while one was bashed to death with a baseball bat in a high-security lab. At least six and as many as fifteen died under suspicious circumstances -and all were directly connected to the CIA and its super-secret bio-weapons programs. It's not unreasonable to assume that when people are 'disappeared' it's because they know something important or incriminating were they in a position to shed light on the anthrax attacks? Government hit squads ... people all had connections to Bush and all ... to suppress - and all died in mysterious circumstances ... When there are international microbiologists and investigative ...
www.globalcomplexity.org/Death%20by%20Association.htm - 17k - Cached - Similar pages


Memphis Flyer Interactive :: the mid-south's leading alternative ...
... us to support President George W. Bush’s life ... exists between the dead microbiologists, between Don ... real or imagined -- between the rash of mysterious deaths? ...
www.memphisflyer.com/MFSearch/full_results.asp?xt_from=1&aID=2521 - 75k - Cached - Similar pages

The American Sentimentalist: Comment on Moral calculations and the ...
... Had Bush, Blair, or any of the Cabal a ... Dr. Que fell unconscious came the mysterious disappearance of Don Wiley, 57, one of the foremost microbiologists in the ...
www.thesentimentalist.com/cgi-bin/mt-comments.cgi?entry_id=121 - 20k - Cached - Similar pages

CASI Discussion List Archive 2003: Threaded Index
... "Supporting Heuristic Evaluation"., Bert Gedin; Blair and Bush IHT, JULY 24, ppg; ... Kelly/other microbiologists' mysterious deaths, pjw8; www.casi.org.uk/discuss/2003/thread16.html - 16k - Cached - Similar pages
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portland imc - 2003.07.19 - Scientist's deaths are under the(base ...
... Scientists' deaths are under the microscope Alanna Mitchell ... Que fell unconscious came the mysterious disappearance of ... one of the foremost microbiologists in the ...
http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2003/07/268360.shtml - 41k - Cached - Similar pages

This is Not a Blog: Weird of the Week: Microbiology is Deadly Work
... The stange circumstances surrounding Kelly's death (he went ... simply the most recent mysterious tragedy ... Eleven microbiologists mysteriously dead over the span of ...
http://thisisnotablog.net/archives/000165.html - 11k - Cached - Similar pages

This is Not a Blog: More on Dr. Kelly
... The Independent offers some excellent background on the events leading up the mysterious death of Dr. David Kelly, the microbiologist who some believe may be ...
http://thisisnotablog.net/archives/000168.html - 9k - Cached - Similar pages

From The Wilderness Publications on the web @ www.copvcia.com
... another world-class microbiologist has died under mysterious circumstances. Part I Read Now. 10/10/03 MARVIN BUSH EMPLOYEE'S MYSTERIOUS DEATH - Connections to 9 ...
www.fromthewilderness.com/ - 101k - Jan 9, 2004 - Cached - Similar pages

BIOWARFARE - Index of Stories
... 07-17-02 Bush Signs $4.6 Billion Bioterror Bill: MEHPA ... 02 Support for MEHPA Fades as More Microbiologists Continue to Die Under Mysterious Circumstances by ...
www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/index-biowarfare.html - 40k - Cached - Similar pages
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David Sadler For Congress
... It went all the way up to President Bush and back down again on top of us. ... Top Microbiologists Victims of Mysterious Deaths. ...
www.david-sadler.org/archiveFP/archiveFP20030725.htm - 22k - Cached - Similar pages

Steve Quayle News Alerts
... us to support President George W. Bush’s life ... Posted by: SPKY Mysterious Deaths of Scientists 14-May-2002 Eleven microbiologists have mysteriously ...
www.stevequayle.com/News.alert/03_Disease/030805.mysterious.deaths.html - 42k - Cached - Similar pages

Steve Quayle News Alerts: Disease
... SARS) in Washington State Scientists Warn on Bush Bioweapons Push ... the Rise in US February 20 The Very Mysterious Deaths of Five Microbiologists (December 20 ...
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LONG:liberties, microbiologists' deaths, SARS & Spanish flu
... April 4 AP story went on to note, * executive ... will lead us to re examine the mysterious deaths of as many as 15 world class microbiologists since 9 ...
http://mailman.efn.org/pipermail/local_activists/2003-May/003442.html - 20k - Cached - Similar pages

How 'Conspiracy Kooks' Became More Credible Than the White ...
... (NOTE: in post below: comment about Reagan and Bush; mysterious deaths of 15 microbiologists; Pipes' group that scours educators' work for bias;=20 forced ...
http://mailman.efn.org/pipermail/local_activists/2002- November/000979.html - 14k - Cached - Similar pages

Bd_Specification
... 2001 to March 2002 'season' of mysterious deaths was Dr ... The microbiologist was found on the edge of a ... at the highest levels of the Bush administration—the ...
www.bangladesherdak.net/Archive/intelligence/03/July/31.htm - 43k - Cached - Similar pages

Today's Hottest News Stories
... of the California energy market by Bush's Texas cronies ... Dr. Kelly linked to two microbiologists who also ... into Dr. Kelly’s mysterious death - Leading weapons ...
www.dougbasham.com/august18-24-03.html - 53k - Cached - Similar pages

David Kelly in the World Press
... biowarfare, a stated aim of the current bush administration? ... november 12, 2001: the beginning of numerous mysterious deaths of renowned microbiologists. ...
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How 'Conspiracy Kooks' Became More Credible Than the White House ...
... The mysterious deaths of 15 microbiologists following the attacks ... Some, like Dr. Len Horowitz, long ago speculated that the Bush administration might use a ...
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BuzzFlash Report - Archived
... Bush picks Clinton for E. Timor diplomatic trip 5/8. ... 5/8. Scientists' deaths are under the microscope: Eleven microbiologists mysteriously dead over ...
www.buzzflash.com/archives/2002/05/BuzzFlash_Archive_050802_0754a.html - 48k - Cached - Similar pages
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How 'Conspiracy Kooks' Became More Credible Than the White House ...
... The mysterious deaths of 15 microbiologists following the ... risks." Some, like Dr. Len Horowitz, long ago speculated that the Bush administration might use a ...
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different strings
... perhaps revealing information that would damage Bush and his ... lately to the "string" of mysterious deaths among scientists - microbiologists in particular ...
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FreeSpeech.com: This is truly sad..
... a former UN weapons inspector and microbiologist who had ... before loony lefties start implying that Bush or Blair ... can add to the list of mysterious Deaths one of ...
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Homeland Insecurity, by Maureen Farrell - Democratic Underground
... like Pipes have been linked to conspiracies to squelch dissent and Bush's official national ... The mysterious deaths of 15 microbiologists following the ...
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Democratic Underground Forums - Who is Killing these ...
... the story to reflect new mysterious deaths in Russia and ... it to all the microbiologists i know. ...
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Journal of Statistics Education, V10N3: Teaching Bits - Peterson
... with a quote from the Bush Administration's overseer ... out that not all of the researchers were microbiologists. ... all the deaths were as mysterious as originally ...
www.amstat.org/publications/jse/v10n3/peterson.html - 19k - Cached - Similar pages

Alex Jones Presents Infowars.com to Fight the New World Order ...
... had links to three other top microbiologists whose deaths have ... In Depth: The Mysterious Death of Dr. Kelly. ... for blowing the whistle on President Bush for making ...
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Alex Jones Presents Infowars.com to Fight the New World Order ...
... Microbiologists With Link to Race-Based Weapon Turning Up Dead. ... In Depth: The Mysterious Death of Dr. Kelly. ... for blowing the whistle on President Bush for making ...
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ABC Online Forum
... can't be good to train more microbiologists in the ... Subject: re: Bush bioweapons plan, post id: 5333. ... I read about the increased number of mysterious deaths of bio ...
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Yahoo! Groups : RUMORMILLNEWS Messages : Message 8921 of 14674
... They are looking at Bush's dubious presidential election ... on of the string of dead microbiologists, who I ... a global investigation into the mysterious death of a ...
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tRAGIChIPSTER.COM
... Scientists' Deaths are Under the Microscope (11 Microbiologists Mysteriously Dead within 5 ... Bush Family and bin Laden Family: Business Partners <5/9 ... [br />www.tragichipster.com/puzzle/default.asp - 10k - Cached - Similar pages

WORLD WAR III
... 03-03-02 Post 9-11 Microbiologist Fatalities Now ... Paper, The Case for Bush Administration Foreknowledge ... Intelligence hearings and three mysterious deaths in 2000 ...
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From The Wilderness Publications on the web @ www.copvcia.com
... House Intelligence hearings and three mysterious deaths in 2000. ... for MEHPA Wanes as More Microbiologists Die Under ... Peaked, Both Cheney and Bush Have Private ...
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The Asbestos Connection
... are so afraid to say boo to the Bush administration! ... mystery is the gruesome murders and mysterious deaths of 18 world class microbiologists specialising in ...
http://mindprod.com/asbestos.html - 36k - Jan 10, 2004 - Cached - Similar pages

News Outpost - Microbiologists With Link to Race-Based Weapon ...
... Many questions remain about the death of these ... Microbiologists With Link to Race-Based Weapon Turning Up ... Murder?: Dr. Kelly & The Mysterious Chest Electrodes. ...
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News Outpost
... British government—had links to three other top microbiologists whose deaths ... Dr. Kelly & The Mysterious Chest Electrodes Posted on Sunday, August ... George Bush, ...
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Randy Crow - Democrat For President
... Dr. Que fell unconscious came the mysterious disappearance of ... was killed by a microbiologist colleague, Guyang ... Some have criticized the Bush administration for ...
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9-11 Research
... as "enemy combatants" is now a stated policy of the Bush Administration ... In November of 2001, a series of mysterious deaths of renouned microbiologists started ...
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MEDIUM RARE by Jim Rarey
... His death began a string of mysterious deaths and obvious murders
of world-class microbiologists, which continues to this day. Dr ...
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20031123 Page 2
... What role did this mysterious cell play in justifying the ... Now President Bush is set to do the same ... also ask ourselves why so many microbiologists have recently ...
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ANTHRAX ATTACKS AND MICROBIOLOGIST DEATHS
... Bush signs it into law the same day. ... November 12, 2001: The beginning of numerous mysterious deaths of renowned microbiologists. ...
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Sherman Skolnick's Report
... 11 began were five or more mysterious murders, deaths ... strange disappearances, worldwide, of microbiologists, world-acclaimed ... American CIA and the Bush Family in ...
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All Facts and Opinions: Dog Days for Shrub's Poodle
... dossier and Kelly's subsequent and mysterious death have left ... that led to George Dubya Bush's controversial and ... A renowned microbiologist and weapons expert is ...
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Conspiracy didn't kill microbiologists, coincidence did
... Conspiracy didn't kill eleven microbiologists, just coincidence --a ... same time, Don C. Wiley mysteriously disappeared ... we're counting, in George W. Bush), and the ...
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Letters to the WSWS
... to be explained by the 11 microbiologists mysteriously dead over ... the direct and individual requests by Bush and Cheney ... luck did not die a horrible death at the ...
www.wsws.org/articles/2002/may2002/cor1-m22.shtml - 21k - Cached - Similar pages

Centre for Research on Globalisation (CRG)
... on deadly viruses, noted the possibility of the Bush Administration using ... FTW's reporting on the mysterious post-9-11 deaths of 15 microbiologists, some of ...
www.globalresearch.ca/articles/RUP209A.html - 14k - Cached - Similar pages

Skolnick - The Overthrow Of The American Republic, Part 13
... itself, tends to show prior Bush White House ... were five or more mysterious murders, deaths ... strange disappearances, worldwide, of microbiologists, world-acclaimed ...
www.rense.com/general28/overas.htm - 18k - Cached - Similar pages

UncommonSense
... Russert's voice be, if this was Clinton stalling instead of Bush? ... There was the death of noted microbiologist Dr. Don Wiley in a mysterious plummet from ...
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The Beast - Buffalo's New Best Fiend
... on the bill; 21 world class microbiologists for Western nations being killed mysteriously; and one last ... Did the Bush Administration have a part in the ...
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Under The Underground News
... Here is a link for more detailed coverage of "mysterious deaths" of these premier microbiologists http://www ... Woman Who Filed Sex Suit Against Bush Dead. ...
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Scoop: The Murder of David Kelly - Part Two of Two
... death began a string of mysterious deaths and obvious murders of world-class microbiologists, which continues ... Guest Opinion Link: Hinckley & Bush Families Were ...
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West Nile Blues
... a strange twist of fate, George Bush himself has ... almost 20 of the worlds leading microbiologist in the ... plague, all but five died mysterious deaths right after ...
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Signs of the Times
... FTW's reporting on the mysterious post-9 ... Dead Microbiologist Kelly From Nico Haupt Global Free Press. ... Cheney Was Bush’s Triggerman in Escalating Intelligence ...
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Timeline Part XV
... 11/8/01] The Guardian notes that now Bush's "personal papers ... 01] November 12, 2001: The beginning of numerous mysterious deaths of renowned microbiologists. ...
www.geocities.com/spdster2003/timeline15.html - 32k - Cached - Similar pages

Dead Microbiologists Linked To Ethno-Specific BioWeapons
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
... walk in the park than the Bush administration expected ... developed by the CIA; The mysterious deaths of as many as 15 world-class microbiologists specializing in ...
www.markswatson.com/deadmicros.pdf - Similar pages

9-11 Day Of Emergencies
... Bob Stevens Mr. Stevens died of a mysterious case of ... a photo of daughter Jenna Bush, obviously intoxicated ... Set Van Nguyen A microbiologist at CSIRO's animal ...
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thi3rdeye
... Magazine-By Sharmini Peries President Bush's recently unveiled ... He was discussing the mysterious series of ... of around 30 prominent microbiologists which began in ...
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NIGHT VISION
... marconi-scientists.html. ANOTHER MURDERED MICROBIOLOGIST ! ... ORIGNS OF THE GW.BUSH-CARLYLE GROUP- NAZI AXIS. ... THE MYSTERIOUS DEATH OF POPE JOHN PAUL 1. ...
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THE MATRIX REVEALED
... MYSTERIOUS MENA. CIA COCAINE CONNECTION-. BARRY SEAL,COCAINE ... Dead People With Connections To The Bush. ... of eleven of the World's. leading microbiologists). Query: Who ...
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New Anthrax Case Feared in Northeast
... the first anthrax illness since the mysterious death of a ... form of the illness, the microbiologist said. ... public concerns that the Bush administration's sweeping ...
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DEBKAfile - CIA Adviser Kay Amasses Evidence of Saddam’s WMD
... and women who had succumbed to mysterious causes of ... British microbiologist Dr. David Kelly, whose suicide on July ... Now that Bush, Blair and Howard are regrouping ...
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Conspiracy Archive News: cia, bush, osama bin laden 9/11
... CONNECTION "Last week the Bush Administration – or ... SCIENTIST' DEATHS UNDER MICROSCOPE "It's a tale ... Eleven microbiologists mysteriously dead over the span of ...
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media underground
... News Item: Scientists' Deaths Are Under The Microscope. ... Eleven microbiologists mysteriously dead over the span of just ... the day that the Bush administration has ...
www.media-underground.net/news/news_15_05_2002.htm - 18k - Cached - Similar pages

Open Source Politics: SocialEyes: The Conspiracy Theory That ...
... religious cult with ties to the Bush family, and ... that people everywhere are becoming paranoid, seeing mysterious deaths of British microbiologists who know ...
www.ospolitics.org/socialeyes/archives/2003/09/14/the_conspi.php - 31k - Cached - Similar pages

Conspiracy News : Conspiracy Ink
... SEE NO EVIL: WHAT BUSH DIDN'T (WANT TO) KNOW ABOUT 9/11 On ... Don C. Wiley, one of the dozen distinguished microbiologists that have mysteriously died within ...
http://ipncomm.org/ConsInk/Index.htm - 28k - Cached - Similar pages

TOTAL INFORMATION ANALYSIS
... See also Microbiologists With Link to Race-Based Weapon ... Bush goes to work immediately through the executive ... Act, was the order that the mysterious death of Col ...
www.libertythink.com/totalinformation/2003_12_28_archive.html - 37k - Jan 9, 2004 - Cached - Similar pages

Citizens for Legitimate Government, Bush Election Coup 2000 2K ...
... ANOTHER microbiologist dies: Composite released in fatal hit-and ... OKs Intelligence Bill Dictator Bush signed legislation ... in *but another* mysterious plane crash ... Description: Pro-democracy activist group established to expose the Bush coup d'etat, and to oppose the Bush occupatio...
Category: Society > History > ... > Bush, George Walker > Opposing Views
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Federal Observer Articles - Federal Observer
... 2002-03-07 - Who was Philander Knox? 2002-03-06 - Bush of Arabia. ... 2001-12-27 - The Very Mysterious Deaths Of Five Microbiologists. ...
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Telecidal Tendencies
... With the Bush administration changing laws to ... including the supposedly explainable deaths of WMD ... Eleven microbiologists mysteriously died within five months of ...
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Earthfiles.com
... January 3, 2004 - Mysterious Ice Circle in Michigan. ... George Bush Sign This 2003 MAJIC Document? ... 18, 2003 - Updated Whistleblower Microbiologist Speaks Out ...
Description: Environmental anomalies. Updated reports about science, medicine, the environment and real X-Files.
Category: Science > Anomalies and Alternative Science
www.earthfiles.com/ - 52k - Jan 9, 2004 - Cached - Similar pages

The DISH
... One of the foremost microbiologists in the United States ... and Steven Mostow died under mysterious circumstances ... on behalf of black people, the Bush machine stands ...
www.thedish.org/TheDISHv5No51.htm - 23k - Cached - Similar pages

UTMB News Release:UTMB CONSOLIDATES ADMINISTRATION OF BIODEFENSE ...
... and compete for $1.75 billion President Bush has asked ... down the hantavirus that caused mysterious deaths in New ... has served as a research microbiologist at the ...
www.utmb.edu/newsroom/02pr/nov02/cons_admin.htm - 10k - Cached - Similar pages

CBS News | Hong Kong Hotel Eyed In Mystery Illness | March 20 ...
... has already disappeared." Meanwhile, the Bush administration said ... virus," Dr. John Tam, a microbiologist at the ... by chance without causing the mysterious disease ...
www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/03/20/health/main544861.shtml - 45k - Cached - Similar pages

Where Anthrax and the 911 Timeline Converge
... September 11 20DEC2001 Ian Gurney The Very Mysterious Deaths Of Five Microbiologists ... single company has helped bankroll President Bush's political career. ...
www.networkingtheinternet.com/zxm102.htm - 32k - Cached - Similar pages

Overnight News Oregon Coast News Signal Archives May 10 2002
... justice oriented, and the ultimate death of free ... Michael C. Ruppert about eleven microbiologists mysteriously dead was ... Arafat said, "President Bush asked me to ...
www.networkingtheinternet.com/zxm115.htm - 31k - Cached - Similar pages

From The Wilderness Publications on the web @ www.copvcia.com
... of microbiologists at least three more microbiologists have died under mysterious circumstances in ... series exploding the lies told by Bush, Cheney and ...
www.appollonia.net/copvcia/ - 62k - Cached - Similar pages

Al-Muhajabah's Islamic Blogs Archives: July 18, 2003
... Dr David Kelly, a renowned microbiologist and advisor ... day some lobby journalists have mysteriously learnt of ... misinformation campaigns by the Bush administration ...
www.muhajabah.com/islamicblog/archives/2003/07/18.php - 30k - Cached - Similar pages

PAG E-NEWS:Vol.20; No.11; 8-15-2003
... about 9-11, the anthrax attacks, and the mysterious deaths of many renowned microbiologists. ... jaded
by the routine corporate favoritism practiced by Bush & co ...
www.morpheussoft.com/pipermail/pag_enews/ 2003-August/000108.html - 8k - Cached - Similar pages

Pravda.RU 40-thousand potential maniacs
... there are at least 40-thousand microbiologists, so if ... against the presence of George Bush, furious that ... four deaths caused by a “mysterious illness” were ...
http://english.pravda.ru/world/2002/02/25/26636.html - 62k - Cached - Similar pages

Above Top Secret News Archive Summary
... Mysterious, Ancient, and Lost Civilizations. ... Spooked by ‘Ghost Planes' Dead Microbiologists Linked To ... Officer Delivers Blistering Excoriation Of Bush Six Huge ...
www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/blogs/news_archivesum.php?view=category - 67k - Cached - Similar pages

Above Top Secret News Archive Summary
... Earths People Hearing Persistent, Mysterious Hum Aren't ... Delivers Blistering Excoriation Of Bush Seeing Things ... Base After Attack Dead Microbiologists Linked To ...
www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/blogs/news_archivesum.php?view=date - 71k - Cached - Similar pages

DC Indymedia: newswire/77459
... Saddam said the truth, Bush lied. ... Here's the link for the Globe and Mail article on "The Mysterious Deaths of 11 Microbiologists." http://globeandmail ...
http://dc.indymedia.org/newswire/display/77459/index.php - 37k - Cached - Similar pages

Mikhail's Journal
www.livejournal.com/users/sirreal13/ - Similar pages

Search Results
... Eleven microbiologists mysteriously dead over the span of just ... secret intelligence agencies - and has Bush fingerprints all ... as well as any mysterious thefts of ...
http://democrats.com/preview.cfm?term=Anthrax - 71k - Jan 9, 2004 - Cached - Similar pages

GeekPress
... The latest conspiracy theory is about the "rash" of recent mysterious deaths among the world's leading microbiologists. ... The secret to George W. Bush's power ...
http://geekpress.com/2002_05_05_weekly.html - 28k - Cached - Similar pages


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goforit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 10:27 PM
Response to Original message
2. Can you provide the list of 15 names and cause of death?
This is unbelievable.
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Here they are..
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goforit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #5
61. Thank you!!!
You are terrific!!!

:bounce:
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Fescue4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
3. I have it on good authority.
That within a certain amount of time, they'll all be dead.


People die all the time. This is just a case of cherry picking the numbers to come to a predetermined conclusion.
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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. And will they all die UNNATURALLY?
The point is not that they died, but that they died violently.

Like the guy whose car was found on a bridge with the door
open and the engine running and his body in the river. (That
was a couple of years ago, but you get the drift (bad pun)).

I think you have to see the causes of death before you claim
"cherry picking".

arendt
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Check the list in the link to the thread.
Edited on Sat Jan-10-04 11:28 PM by TruthIsAll
I have heard the term "cherrypicking" a number of times on DU, from those who knew little or nothing about the subject at hand - namely the universe of possibilities of an event, the number of occurrences of the event, and the mathematics of the probability distribution used in the analysis. These are invariably individuals who believe only in coincidence and who scoff at any notion that a group of Americans may have plotted to murder, destroy or defeat any individual who they perceived as being a threat - in other words conspired together.

What is it about the analysis of a possible conspiracy that these naysayers, these disbelieving coincidence buffs, find so threatening? I bet none of them are lawyers or criminal investigators, who know the power of circumstantial evidence.

I have spent many hours trying to convince the naysayers - and there are always a few. Fortunately, those with a math background and an inquisitive mind will attempt to delve into the analysis independently, and they invariably arrive at the same results.

As I am sure you will also.
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goforit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #7
66. People who believe the world is flat will never see.
It is like standing on a set rail road tracks and they don't
believe that trains exist. Well all I can say is it becomes a
bloody mess and they never knew what hit them.

Let them live in their own delusions for they never will surpass
past them.

Alert those who can see.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 05:36 AM
Response to Reply #3
52. all depends on how much time "a certain amount of time" is
15 out of 5000 in 4 months ; chance 1:10,000,000

How's that "cherry picking"? We only 'pick' dead bioligists, from the global population of bioligists, over the period in which they died. And then we do the math.

Are the numbers wrong? Show us.

Is the math wrong? Show us.

Is 1:10,000,000 a 'normal' probability? What are you smoking?
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #3
58. not perfect...
Edited on Sun Jan-11-04 11:45 AM by deseo
... but not dismissable either.
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 10:51 PM
Response to Original message
6. Disturbing implications of these deaths. Here's a link to the WTC,
and another mysterious death:

Early in 2002, five Middle Eastern men are convicted of fraudulently obtaining Tennessee drivers' licenses from a Memphis woman, Katherine Smith. At least one of the men is said to have driven from New York City to Memphis on September 11, 2001. Another of the five, Sakher Hammad, is found at his arrest to have in his possession a photo ID pass to the World Trade Center for September 5, 2001. He says he was there to do maintanance work on the underground level sprinklers.

On the day before she was to testify in the case, Katherine Smith dies under very mysterious circumstances. Her car supposedly hits a tree and catches fire, but the FBI determine that gasoline was poured on her clothing before the car hit the tree, and the car had been traveling too slowly to cause much damage. The gas tank was unruptured, yet the fire was so intense it cooked the passenger compartment down to the frame, burned off her limbs and left her charred beyond recognition. Witnesses saw flames erupt from the back seat and engulf the interior before the impact. (See AP story, "Is mysterious state death tied to terrorism?"
http://www.oakridger.com/stories/021802/stt_0218020021.html)

Then, on June 1, 2002, OC Smith, the Memphis medical examiner who identified Katherine Smith's body and probed the mysterious death of Harvard University microbiologist Don Wiley (who supposedly fell from a Memphis bridge in December 2001), is attacked with chemical spray, bound with barbed wire, and left lying in a nearby parking lot with a bomb tied to his body. He is rescued several hours later. This follows the bombing of his office on March 13.

Also, check out http://www.deadscientists.blogspot.com/ , devoted to probing the microbiologists' deaths, and the case of David Kelly.

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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Oak Ridge, huh? Just a teensy, weensy nuclear production site there.
I never realized that this stuff went down in Oak Ridge.
There is a huge, spooky federal presence in that area.

Interesting, in not a good way.

arendt
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goforit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #6
65. My oh my.....what a cat and mouse game the dark forces play. I re-
member that Wiley case when I read in the paper that they
had found a bomb at the coroner's building (several weeks or a month after Wiley's death),where they still had Wiley's body kept in a vault.

Bushco is very busy group.
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solinvictus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #65
97. Wiley
That received a lot of coverage locally, especially in conjunction with the death of the license examiner for TDOT. Then, it suddenly disappeared from view and anyone on local talk radio who mentioned it was derided as a kook.
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 11:04 PM
Response to Original message
9. Globe and Mail article, when there were "only" 11:
Scientists' deaths are under the microscope

Eleven microbiologists mysteriously dead over the span of just five months. Some of them world leaders in developing weapons-grade biological plagues. Others the best in figuring out how to stop millions from dying because of biological weapons. Still others, experts in the theory of bioterrorism.

http://globeandmail.workopolis.com/servlet/News/fasttrack/20020504/UMURDN?section=Science
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CHIMO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. Wondering
Did any or all of them smoke cigars?
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KFC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 11:04 PM
Response to Original message
10. Very Funny
Are you that guy who makes the sausages on TV?

Outstanding.
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Did you see post # 7? Hi, KFC, you old coincidence theorist, you..
...
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 11:13 PM
Response to Original message
12. Similarly, 22 odd deaths in the 80s - UK "Star Wars" scientists' deaths
I only recently discovered the story.

In the mid-80s, 22 British scientists working on SDI research are said to have killed themselves, in often very bizarre and violent fashions.

...

Did 22 SDI Researchers really ALL Commit Suicide?

Fifty-year-old Alistair Beckham was a successful British aerospace- projects engineer. His specialty was designing computer software for sophisticated naval defense systems. Like hundreds of other British scientists, he was working on a pilot program for America's Strategic Defense Initiative--better known as Star Wars. And like at least 21 of his colleagues, he died a bizarre, violent death.

It was a lazy, sunny Sunday afternoon in August 1988. After driving his wife to work, Beckham walked through his garden to a musty backyard toolshed and sat down on a box next to the door. He wrapped bare wires around his chest, attached the to an electrical outlet and put a handkerchief in his mouth. Then he pulled the switch.

With his death, Beckham's name was added to a growing list of British scientists who've died or disappeared under mysterious circumstances since 1982. Each was a skilled expert in computers, and each was working on a highly classified project for the American Star Wars program. None had any apparent motive for killing himself.

http://www.fiu.edu/~mizrachs/sdi-deaths.html

Some examples of their deaths:

DEATH LEAP--Jonathan Walsh, 29, digital-communications expert assigned to British Telecom's secret Martlesham Health research facility (and to GEC, Marconi's parent firm). In November 1985 Walsh allegedly fell from his hotel room while working on a British Telecom project in Abidjan, Ivory Coast (Africa). He had expressed a fear for his life. Verdict: Still in question.

DECAPITATION--Ashaad Sharif, 26, computer analyst, Marconi Defense Systems. In October 1986, in Bristol, Sharif allegedly tied one end of a rope around a tree and the other end around his neck, then drove off in his car at high speed. Verdict: Suicide.

SUFFOCATION--Richard Pugh, computer consultant for the Ministry of Defense. In January 1987 Pugh was found dead, wrapped head-to- toe in rope that was tied four times around his neck. The coroner listed his death as an accident due to a sexual experiment gone awry.

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cliss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 11:15 PM
Response to Original message
13. Thanks for the post, TIA.
I've been trying to stay on top of these stories for the past few months. I've done some research into the Kelly "suicide", the John Kokal "suicide". I did not know about these others.

What the hell are they doing? I'm just trying to understand what their plan is. Are the trying to exterminate anyone who would have the expertise to have a "heads up" on what they're doing.

It could mean that they have some things in the works for the future, and they do not want anyone interfering or know what they're doing.

I have taken lots of statistics classes, and I know the odds are pretty small of these people dying from mysterious circumstances. So something's up.
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Honesthumanbeing Donating Member (60 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 11:24 PM
Response to Original message
14. There are some limitations in this analysis
You use generalized data on unnatural deaths but don't consider factors of the microbiology profession that might skew the data in either direction. I don't really have the information to speculate on what these might be, but just as an example, the profession of "crack dealer" probably has a higher rate of "unnatural" deaths than the rest of the population, for reasons both related and unrelated to their profession. There is no obvious reason why this might be the case with microbiologists, but any non-random sampling of the population is bound to have some characteristics that would skew the data in comparison to the random sampling that is used to determine the probability distribution used here. A truly objective analysis would use the data on microbilogist "unnatural" deaths for other time periods as the basis for the probability distribution.
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frogfromthenorth2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Wow... not too bad for a first post! Welcome to DU!!!!
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Honesthumanbeing Donating Member (60 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #15
27. thanks
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #27
91. Hi Honethumanbeing!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. Yet if this was not an exceptional spate of unusual deaths,
if this was par for the microbiologists's course, it wouldn't have drawn attention to itself.
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Honesthumanbeing Donating Member (60 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. that raises an interesting question
How exactly was attention draw to this? It's not as if something like this can just be "noticed" by someone who wasn't looking for it or something like it, unless that person was in some unique position to do so. Perhaps a microbiologist in the field who heard of the deaths of several colleagues? No clues to how the strange deaths in question were noticed seem to me to be presented in the links from the other thread on this, although I did only skim them. I'm going to do a bit of research on this story and report back.
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. I suggest you read the above thread which links to the
Edited on Sun Jan-11-04 12:12 AM by TruthIsAll
explanation of the 16 deaths.

Nice post #1, but...

The time period was in Nov '01 to Mar '02, immediately after 9/11 and the anthrax scare. Hello?

But this is the important point: The particular POINT in time of these deaths is IRRELEVANT. The assumptions require only a time INTERVAL. The significant factor is the 4 MONTH PERIOD in which the deaths occurred, NOT IN THE YEAR IT OCCURRED. HOWEVER, it just adds further to the, um, suspicion of related foul play that the MYSTERIOUS DEATHS HAPPENED SHORTLY AFTER 9/11.

VERY CIRCUMSTANTIAL. VERY IMPROBABLE.

Let me say it another way. If the deaths occurred during ANY other 4 month time period, they would be JUST as SUSPICIOUS.

Forget microbiologists. Just know this: Given a universe of N individuals, actuaries can determine very accurately how many will die from various causes during a given time period. The results will vary somewhat based on population demographics. But the general mortality tables used are accurate enough for a very good first approximation for just about any subgroup.

It really is simple mathematics. As I said previously, if you want to tear apart my assumptions, you are free to do so.

For example, maybe there are 10 MILLION world-class biologists, not 5000; if so, the probabilities would rise significantly AND WE WOULD PROBABLY NOT EVEN BE HAVING THIS DISCUSSION.

But you can't argue with the math. Poisson was a great French mathematician. You can look him up. You can bet the insurance companies know all about him. If you have not heard of him, you probably did not take Probability 101.

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Honesthumanbeing Donating Member (60 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #18
25. well
"But this is the important point: The particular time interval is IRRELEVANT. The problem is INDEPENDENT of a GIVEN time frame. The significance IS the PERIOD of 4 months in which the deaths occurred. It just adds further to the, um, suspicion of related foul play that they occurred SHORTLY AFTER 9/11."
I understand this. I'm only saying that your study could have benefited from a completely unbiased control group. The study itself is clearly sound mathematically--I have no objections to that.
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Rabrrrrrr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 02:11 AM
Response to Reply #18
30. I agree with honesthumanbeing
While it seems suspicious on the surface about these biologists, and I would be totally willing to believe something rotten is afoot, until you make a comparison with actual, normal rates of biologist deaths, your analysis has no intrinsic meaning, becuase if these guys are all working with dangerous virii and whatnot, they're in a high risk profession, i'd think. You are also flawed because you don't know the actual number of them working in the field, and just made a guess, which I imagine, even at the level of 5,000, is far too low. But I don't know, so someone needs to look it up. And there's a big difference between biologists, and microbiologists, and then also between those who are working specifically with these possibly highly dangerous things, like ebola and HIV and etc.

You can't compare the deaths of these biologists to the normal population at large and then say it's suspicious.

I'm not saying you're wrong - wouldn't surprise me at all if something was rotten in Denmark - but you better get all your eggs in a row in the proper way. That's just good science, and good good mathematics, and good lawyering, for lack of a better term. THEN, and ONLY THEN, will you have a convincing argument, and will you know the TRUE state of the deviation from the norm that these 16 dead guys represent. OR, you (and thus we) might learn that, in a normal 4 month period, the microbuiologuist death rate is actually HIGHER. In which case, we could conclude that nothing funny is going on.

But, as you, I assume something funny IS going on. But I'd like to know the TRUE extent of the funny business, and comparing to the general population doesn't provide that.

(to further augment my argument, you mention the insurance actuaries - but please also note that, when one gets insurance, they still ask about risky behavior - such as smoking, parachuting, work in dangerous fields, etc. - because, accurate as their tables are IN GENERAL, they still want to know some specifics, because while they can say something like 5% of our insured will die each year, they will also know that, except the smokers, 10% of them will die, so we need to charge them more) (and please note, I compltely made up the 5% and 10% figure for purposes of the example; I have no idea what the real numbers are)

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CHIMO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 02:21 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. Shit Or Get Off The Pot
Do you think that the broad brush stats are significant.

If not then where should it be taken and how should it be done.

The point has been raised. It is easy to criticize and walk away. But how does one answer the static that has been raised.

Do you have a method that should be followed?
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Rabrrrrrr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 03:29 AM
Response to Reply #31
34. I'm sorry, everything was spelled out in my post
Edited on Sun Jan-11-04 03:30 AM by Rabrrrrrr
perhaps if you re-read it, you would have answers to all your questions. If you still have specific questions, then please ask - I can't boast of absolute clarity - but every one of your questions was covered in my post. But, mercy drives me, so I answer your questions:

Do you think that the broad brush stats are significant. Yes, I do. read my post, and you will see that I think they are, but I want to know how much.

If not then where should it be taken and how should it be done. read my post.

The point has been raised. It is easy to criticize and walk away. But how does one answer the static that has been raised. I did not walk away; and read my post.

Do you have a method that should be followed. read my post.
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CHIMO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 03:50 AM
Response to Reply #34
39. Read
Your post but was not able to see a rebuttal of the original post. On going back to the original post to find the source I came up empty handed.

So I must apologize for being so abrupt.

Seems like bullshit baffles brains. Going back, I could not find the reference in the original post to the statistic.

My apologizes for my gunslinger response.
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Rabrrrrrr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 03:59 AM
Response to Reply #39
40. If you mean the original post being bullshit baffles brains,
then apology accepted. Always easy to make mistakes, especially in this weird form of written coversation. :hi: :bounce:

Cheers!
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 06:25 AM
Response to Reply #14
54. well yes, depending on circumstances...
microbiologists may indeed be at greater risk of dying an unnatural death.

Ie they may have a larger chance of dying due to exposure of some deadly micro-organism. But that is clearly not a factor in these deaths (see link elsewhere in this thread).

Another cause of them being at greater risk might be that they know something that some evil goverment doesn't want anyone else to know. I guess that's related to their profession.
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Pobeka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 11:46 PM
Response to Original message
19. What if you threw out 4,5,6 and 7?
The rest look like they were victims of violent acts, not accidents.

"What are the odds that 12 leading biologists die as a result of violent acts" is a more interesting question.

Just guessing that we are looking at about 1 in 20,000 or so. Still quite improbable, and a much more direct, and serious question.

:hi:
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CHIMO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Maybe
But it still comes out in the numbers.

If your statement is correct then?
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Pobeka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. I'm confused
Can you re-state that last post? I don't get your point...

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CHIMO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #22
29. Sorry For The Delay
But I have been having trouble trying to reply. My connection is OK everywhere else but couldn't get here.

Anayway.

When broad brush strokes can pick up a stastical aberation then it seems that further investigation is required.

If as you state that there is another population with even high ratios, then it seems that it would require a closer look.

What were the published results of the violent deaths? Were they in one area geographocially or ..?

What you have stated is a much more sinster environment than the broad paintbrush approach.
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #19
23. Pobeka, you are close. Check the probability tables in my post...
Edited on Sun Jan-11-04 12:08 AM by TruthIsAll
For the case of 5000 biologists, check this line:
12 0.000027 36,485

This means:
for 12 or more deaths,
the probability = .000027,
or 1 out of 36,485 (BUT, this is for a FULL year)

For a 4 month period, divide by 3:
.000027/3 = .000009
or 1 out of 109,000

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Pobeka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. Pretty damning evidence, I would say.
It's not like those 12 were all old, and died of strokes.

They shared a unique profession, which the govt has a high level of interest in ... covering up?

Wonder if Greg Palast knows about this?
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. You can be sure he does... n/t
..
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 02:21 AM
Response to Reply #19
32. Why ignore violent acts, if they were to shut them up?
Edited on Sun Jan-11-04 02:22 AM by TruthIsAll
Come on. They have to be suicides or accidents to be considered suspicious?

Sometimes, its easier just to off them.
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 04:48 AM
Response to Reply #32
47. My bad.. Sorry, I meant accidents...
..
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 03:46 AM
Response to Reply #19
38. Sorry for the delay. Why take out the four deaths?
Edited on Sun Jan-11-04 03:49 AM by TruthIsAll
All types of unnatural deaths should be included.

Murder- obviously malicious
Accidents -can be made to look like one
Suicides - can be made to look like one
Miscellaneous -

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Pobeka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #38
56. Me to sorry for the long delay -- DU was not accessible. Why drop the 4?
Because of them died of a stroke -- that could well have been accidental.

The other 3 were in an airplane crash. Planes to regularly crash, and that could have been a legitimate accident.

I wanted to focus a little more tightly on the murder and suicides -- murder as you say obviously malicious and suicide is suspiciously malicious.
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #56
62. Airplane "accident"? It is a favorite method of disposal..
..
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Pobeka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. Not disputing that's a possiblity.
I'm just saying dropping those 3 (plus the stroke victim) doesn't change the answer much (to me 1 in 10 million vs. 1 in 100,000 are still practically impossible), and leaves a group of people whose demise was unquestionably due to a violent act. It just makes the basis of the analysis more defensible.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 05:44 AM
Response to Reply #19
53. 16 died an unnatural death
accident is unnatural death
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Sufi Marmot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 01:00 AM
Response to Original message
28. Your analysis is INCREDIBLY flawed...
Edited on Sun Jan-11-04 01:32 AM by Sufi Marmot
I'm a biologist, for what it's worth:

Point #1 - Not all the people on that list were microbiologists. From your list of 16, #1, #2, #7, #13, #14 weren't. Some of the others may not have been either - I haven't looked into the details of all the Russian scientists yet.

Microbiology is a sub-discipline of biology that deals with specifically with microorganisms. Based on publication records, many of those from the list of 16 didn't work with microorganisms directly. By way of analogy, all of those on the list of 16 may have been "athletes", but they weren't all "football players". If you're going to do that type of statistical analysis, you need to assume a pool of MANY thousands of biologists from all biological disciplines, since that's where you're drawing your victim pool from. If you add up all the principal investigators, post-docs, grad students, and everyone else who has ever done any type of biological research at any time, I'm guessing the number is at least into six figures, and certainly not 5000. There have been at least 5000 biologists from my home institution who would fit the criteria for being included on your list (if they died unexpectedly), for what it's worth.

Point #2 - Most of the people on that list certainly WEREN'T WORLD CLASS. Sorry to speak ill of the dead, but do PubMed searches on them. #1, #7, #8 (a lab technician), #13/14 weren't, and I have my doubts about #4-6 and #9/10 as well. Some of them were accomplished biologists, no doubt, but not Nobel-Prize material, not even close...


I will grant that Wiley WAS a world-class biologist, although he wasn't a microbiologist. #15 may be one of the only microbiologists on that list.

Point #3 The research descriptions of many, if not most of the deceased is misleading. Wiley was not one of the world's leading researchers of deadly viruses, including HIV and the Ebola virus. Wiley published all of 3 papers on the crystal strcutre of specific Ebola virus proteins and roughly a dozen papers on the crystal structure of certain HIV proteins. I wouldn't consider him a virologist, in that, to my knowledge, his lab didn't study the infectivity of live viruses. Wiley spent the bulk of his career studing the interactions between influzena proteins and their specific receptors in mammalian cells.

Nothing in Pubmed suggests that Benito Que was an "expert in infectious diseases"

I've never seen anything that suggests that Nguyen Van Set worked in the actual lab that made the mousepox virus, as opposed to simply working in the same institute.

I'm not sure what the basis is for declating Mostow a "bioterrorism expert", He was occasionally quoted in the media about public health issues such as flu epidemics or the possiblity of smallpox outbreaks. I'm not sure whether I'd consider him a "microbiologist" or simply a clinician with several publications relating to bacterial diseases - I'd have to take a closer look at the research.


Try to calculate how many BIOLOGISTS of all biological disciplines there are, at ALL levels (your victims run the gamut from lab techs to full professors, including some people who were no longer doing biology when they died. Include any physicians who do biological research. I'd be curious to see what the probabilities are.

-SM


Edited for spelling
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 03:34 AM
Response to Reply #28
35. The odds assuming a larger number of biologists
Edited on Sun Jan-11-04 03:39 AM by TruthIsAll
Number of Prob (16 or more unusual deaths in a 4 month period)
Biologists
05,000 4.32E-15 or 1 in 230,953,827,044,641
10,000 1.11E-10 or 1 in 8,973,307,074
20,000 1.35E-06 or 1 in 735,722
50,000 .0225 or 1 in 44
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Rabrrrrrr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 03:46 AM
Response to Reply #35
37. You stil haven't offered anything of comparable value
where's the rate of deaths of biologists at normal times? Where's the ACTUAL number working?

And more importantly, you failed to answer a LOT of important questions regarding the actual importance of the biologists?

You can play around with numbers all you want and come up with all osrts of charts and tables, but, as any decent scientist, mathematician, or business analyst will tell you, unless those numbers have meaning, it's just so much useless numerical masturbation.

Give us some data we can use. Give us some data that would force a conservative/freeper to stand back and go "Whoa!!" Only then will you have something of real significance.
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 04:06 AM
Response to Reply #37
42. Rabrrrrr, a reply
Edited on Sun Jan-11-04 04:20 AM by TruthIsAll
Thanks for the kind suggestions.

You say:
Where's the rate of deaths of biologists at normal times? Where's the ACTUAL number working?
I say:
What the hell do you mean by a normal time? It happened right after 9/11. Sorry, but that's the best I can do.

As for the actual number working. I just read that there were about 20,000, so I am providing a probability analysis assuming 20,000 and 50,000 (to be conservative). You can see the odds decline as the population increases.

You say:
And more importantly, you failed to answer a LOT of important questions regarding the actual importance of the biologists?
I say:
You are setting up a strawman argument. I got the names from the article referenced. You can draw your own conclusions.

You say:
You can play around with numbers all you want and come up with all osrts of charts and tables, but, as any decent scientist, mathematician, or business analyst will tell you, unless those numbers have meaning, it's just so much useless numerical masturbation.
I say:
If you can come up with something better, please do. Meanwhile, I will keep my hands out of my pockets, thank you.

You say:
Give us some data we can use. Give us some data that would force a conservative/freeper to stand back and go "Whoa!!" Only then will you have something of real significance.

I say:
You have the data. You have the unnatural mortality rates. You have descriptions of the deaths. You have the 20,000 estimate biologist universe. I am not trying to convince anyone of anything - much less a freeper. BTW, do you know any?
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Rabrrrrrr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 04:38 AM
Response to Reply #42
46. Yes, you offered numbers, but as I and others have said,
you give us nothing against which to compare them.

You said What the hell do you mean by a normal time?. What I mean is, time outside the period right after 9/11. If you give us data from the period before 9/11 (and we'd need a good couple years' worth), then we'd have something to go on. Otherwise your sample is without meaning.
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 04:57 AM
Response to Reply #46
48. You think maybe it had something to do with 9/11?
Edited on Sun Jan-11-04 04:59 AM by TruthIsAll
Cause I don't know of a similar Biologist plague. Just kidding.

No, I have no pre 9/11 data. Maybe cause it never happened before.

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Rabrrrrrr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 05:04 AM
Response to Reply #48
49. No. Please, read what I'm saying. It's really quite obvious.
I'm saying that you have to compare your data with data from a previous period; otherwise, you have no idea if it is an abberation or not.

If you have no pre-9/11 data, then you have to find it. It's out there - the government and other organizations can distill death data down in ways taht are simply astounding and bizarre, but when money is involved (and I'm talking about insurance companies and their powerful lobbies here), the data will be collected. i can't tell you where you can find it easily, but, I know it's out there (when i was working for the world's premiere consulting company, I came across data packs of the most bizarre and minute data gathering, I couldn't believe it, but there it was).

it is insipid to say "maybe cause it never happened before". No, not until you've done a serious search can you say that. That's a cop out and an easy way to get yourself out of looking for data.

If you do the rezearch you need to do, and do the due diligence, you've have a set of data that will either definitely show, to even the most rightwing Limbaugh-dittohead toilet-licking bea arthur fetishist that you are right, or else you will show to yourself that your hypothesis is wrong. And until you undertake to do the due diligence, as any respectable scientist or journalist would do, we just can't take you seriously.
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 05:29 AM
Response to Reply #49
51. I don't give a damn whether you or a freeper or Limbaugh
Edited on Sun Jan-11-04 05:30 AM by TruthIsAll
take it seriously.

I am finished with the analysis. No need to prove anything. If you are so interested in follow-up, you can just continue where I left off.

You want pre 9/11 data, then YOU find it. I did a simple statistical analysis of an odd sequence of deaths in the 4 month period right after 9/11. I did it only because I read several articles which I found interesting.

I am not aware of any other period in which the number of deaths are out of the ordinary. Except for 15 or so JFK witnesses who met a similar fate each time - in 1964 and 1977. There is nothing I wish to prove here.

You will not goad me into a long debate. If you think it is worth pursuing the analysis, do the research yourself if you are really interested.

Meanwhile, let the freepers have a ball with it.

That's it. I am going to sleep. Goodnight. Sleep well.
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Rabrrrrrr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #51
55. It's quite obvious you have no idea what I'm saying
I read in another post that you are a financial analyst - I hope that you have better data gathering and analysis skills there.

I'm not talking about follow-up: I'm talking that your INITIAL hypoethesis still has no ground to walk on, since all you've looked at is a four-month period of deaths and made bold claims based on that data, without comparing it to any other historical data. Anyone can grab some set of numbers and make bold claims; but without some actual basis in reality, those claims are meaningless.

You say it's an odd sequence of deaths: but I keep telling you, and others are telling you, we don't know if it's an odd sequence, becuase you refuse to compare it to anything. if it's so damn odd, then tell us what it is odd from.

You say you are not aware of any other period in which the number of deaths are out of the ordinary: I say it's becuase, as you have admitted, you haven't bothered to f-ing look.

I am not looking to goad you into long debate - you have offered nothing to debate with yet. I'm telling you, and others are telling you, that you haven't done the research you need to do in order to even come up with something to debate against.

It's not up to me to do the research, since you are the one who is so interested in coming up with this conclusion.

Here's an analogy to what you are doing: say I'm a broker; I look at hos Ford stock has done in the last couple weeks. Well, by golly it's up 25%!! So I tell my client, "Hey - buy Ford stock - it goes up 25% every two weeks!" and then the customer says to me, "That sounds really suspicious - are you sure? Do you have the numbers to show it?" and I say to them, "I have the numbers from this two week period. If you want better proof than that, you go look it up."

That's exactly what you are doing. You're pulling one four-month period, not comparing it to anything, and haven't even bothered to find out how actual biologists there are but instead are making guesses, and then making grandiose and bold claims based on these numbers which exist entirely on their own, with no context in which to put them correctly.

If you don't understand it yet, then so be it; if you don't care that your conclusions are entirely suspect at this point, then so be it. I shall say no more, since a few of us have tried to show you the emptiness in your method.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #55
60. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Rabrrrrrr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #60
98. Crap, I missed that post
Anyone know what it said?
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TomNickell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #37
96. Is that a picture of Mark Twain? Do you remember....
the hilarious sendup of 'scientific' calculation in Life on the Mississippi?

Wherein Twain starts with a simple fact and winds up speculating on the problems of merging the City Councils of New Orleans and St. Louis.
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Sufi Marmot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 04:01 AM
Response to Reply #35
41. Still too few biologists...
50,000 is still too low. Your victim list basically includes anyone working in a biology-related field, including doctors. It includes people from all over the world, at all levels, including research technicians and post-docs. Add up all the biologists (grad-students, post docs, principal investigators, and lab techs; in academia, private industry, and government labs; in ALL biological disciplines), and doctors who do clinical research, AND all retired people who had biology related careers. For the ENTIRE WORLD. That's your sample size. I daresay that this pool represents anyone who has ever been issued a degree in a biological discipline, plus about half of the world's MDs. As I mentioned before, you could easily come up with several thousand names from one large university alone.

How many lawyers in the world died unexpectedly in the same period?

And again, I reiterate that most of the people on that list weren't "world class", nor were they "microbiologists".

-SM
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 04:13 AM
Response to Reply #41
43. I did not write the articles. I read them.
I will not argue as to the degree of expertise of the deceased.

Sounds like you are picking at a strawman.
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Sufi Marmot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 04:36 AM
Response to Reply #43
45. Not a strawman...
Implicit in your premise is that these biologists were murdered because they had some secret knowledge, ostensibly about bioterrorism or infectious diseases. My argument is simply that most of the people on your list, based on their publication records, are VERY unlikely to have possessed any scientific knowledge that would be worth killing them over. Maybe one (Pasechnik) person on that list could fit that category, based on what is known about them. Most of the rest were simply average biologists or physicians from a wide variety of biological/medical disciplines.

Wiley was the biggest name on the list, and if he hadn't published a few papers on the crystal structure of individual proteins of some nasty virues like HIV or Ebola, his death probably wouldn't have sparked such conspiracy theories.

Have ANY of the researchers, with the possible exception of Pasechnik, been implicated in anthrax research? Is there any unifying link between them?

Finally, as Lexingtonian alludes to, killing a scientist is not particularly useful since any important discoveries he or she made are almost certain to exist as written records. If Don Wiley ran his lab like most of his peers do, then it's likely that he hadn't worked at the lab bench in years. Rather, he was probably more of a lab "CEO" who managed a small army of post-docs, grad students, and lab techs. He probably spent most of his time doing the following: writing grants; reading, writing, editing and reviewing papers; meeting with and advising his underlings; enduring departmental meetings; and giving seminars. In the long run, Don Wiley's death is likely to have little impact on the research his lab was doing, as there are probably a dozen of his post-docs whose goal it is to continue the research they were doing in his lab when/if they become principal investigators.


-SM
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 05:10 AM
Response to Reply #45
50. I defer to your expertise in the field. I am a financial analyst.
Edited on Sun Jan-11-04 05:12 AM by TruthIsAll
But how can you surmise that because of their limited expertise in the disciplines you mention, that they were not considered a threat?
Surely, you cannot know what kind of information or contacts they may have had which made them vulnerable.

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Sufi Marmot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #50
75. The onus is on you to provide supporting facts...
But how can you surmise that because of their limited expertise in the disciplines you mention, that they were not considered a threat? Several points here: #1 Some of the biologists on your list were no doubt very highly skilled and productive scientists. "Limited expertise" is not a useful description. The distinction I was trying to draw is that one can be a knowledgeble and competent scientist in one's field and not be "world class" (another meaningless appelation). Fields of biology in study are quite narrow - depending on how you define them, many, if not most PhD level scientists might be considered "experts" in their field. Hell, I'm an expert in my narrow field. But I'm not "world class", as I'm a grad student with a limited number of publications.

As a biologist, I can surmise that, based on what they studied (regardless of what level of biologist they were), the vast majority of those people did not do research in a field relating to biotoerrorism or infectious disesases, and therefore, based on their careers (and the criteria you are using to include them on your list), there is no reason to believe they were killed for some nefarious purpose. Again, many of their job descriptions listed on the conspiracy websites (and those descriptions are just cut and pasted over and over again....) are misleading or inaccurate, written by people who have no understanding of the type of work they did.



Surely, you cannot know what kind of information or contacts they may have had which made them vulnerable. Of course I don't. But given everything else I've pointed out (the biologists were from: different disciplines, different levels, different countries, etc.) the onus is on you to provide such facts to support your thesis. Nobody has ever presented any coherent, verifiable facts linking any of the deaths.

-SM


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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #45
79. OK, Sufi, now its my turn
Edited on Sun Jan-11-04 03:23 PM by TruthIsAll
You:
Implicit in your premise is that these biologists were murdered because they had some secret knowledge, ostensibly about bioterrorism or infectious diseases. My argument is simply that most of the people on your list, based on their publication records, are VERY unlikely to have possessed any scientific knowledge that would be worth killing them over. Maybe one (Pasechnik) person on that list could fit that category, based on what is known about them. Most of the rest were simply average biologists or physicians from a wide variety of biological/medical disciplines.
Me:
I made no such assumptions. Its a math problem. Pure and simple. And tell me, how do you PRESUME to know what THEY knew?

You:
Wiley was the biggest name on the list, and if he hadn't published a few papers on the crystal structure of individual proteins of some nasty virues like HIV or Ebola, his death probably wouldn't have sparked such conspiracy theories.

Have ANY of the researchers, with the possible exception of Pasechnik, been implicated in anthrax research? Is there any unifying link between them?
ME:
JUST BECAUSE THEY HAVE NOT BEEN IMPLICATED MEANS NOTHING. IS THERE A UNIFYING LINK? MY ANALYSIS IS PURELY A MATHEMATICAL EXERCISE.

SUFI, YOU SEEM TO KNOW A LOT ABOUT THESE PEOPLE, MAYBE YOU WANT TO LOOK FOR A LINK. I WILL NOT TAKE THIS ANY FURTHER. I AM NOT AN INVESTIGATOR. I AM NOT A WRITER. I AM NOT A BIOLOGIST.

YOU:
Finally, as Lexingtonian alludes to, killing a scientist is not particularly useful since any important discoveries he or she made are almost certain to exist as written records. If Don Wiley ran his lab like most of his peers do, then it's likely that he hadn't worked at the lab bench in years. Rather, he was probably more of a lab "CEO" who managed a small army of post-docs, grad students, and lab techs. He probably spent most of his time doing the following: writing grants; reading, writing, editing and reviewing papers; meeting with and advising his underlings; enduring departmental meetings; and giving seminars. In the long run, Don Wiley's death is likely to have little impact on the research his lab was doing, as there are probably a dozen of his post-docs whose goal it is to continue the research they were doing in his lab when/if they become principal investigators.

ME: YOU ARE REALLY REACHING, MAKING ASSUMPTIONS AS TO WHETHER THERE WERE MOTIVES TO OFF ANY OF THESE PEOPLE. WHAT A CLASSIC STRAW MAN!
YOU ARE DIVERTING FROM THE SUBJECT MATTER. THAT WAS NOT THE PURPOSE OF MY POST. HOW THE HELL WOULD YOU OR ANYONE ELSE KNOW WHAT OR WHO THE BIOLOGISTS KNEW? I SURE DON'T KNOW AND I DON'T CARE. I JUST CALCULATE PROBABILTIES.

THE PURPOSE OF THE POST WAS TO QUANTIFY THE GUT FEELING THAT THESE DEATHS COULD NOT HAVE BEEN DUE TO CHANCE. THE ASSUMPTION AS TO THE NUMBER OF MICROBIOLOGISTS IS REALLY THE ONLY CRITICAL UNKNOWN. I STATED AT THE ONSET THAT I DID NOT KNOW HOW MANY THERE WERE. ON THIS MATTER, YOUR POINT IS WELL TAKEN. I SHOULD HAVE DONE MY HOMEWORK. LAST NIGHT, I READ AN ARTICLE WHICH ESTIMATES IT TO BE 20,000. SO I RAN THE NUMBERS FOR 20,000 AND 50,000.

THE RESULTS ARE:
20,000: 1 IN 735,722
50,000: 1 IN 44

I CAN SAY THIS: BASED ON THE ABOVE ODDS, IF THERE ARE 100,000 BIOLOGISTS OUT THERE, THEN THERE IS PROBABLY NOTHING SUSPICIOUS GOING ON.



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Sufi Marmot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #79
83. Shrug...
SUFI, YOU SEEM TO KNOW A LOT ABOUT THESE PEOPLE I don't, other than what exists in the public record for all to see...

ME: YOU ARE REALLY REACHING, MAKING ASSUMPTIONS AS TO WHETHER THERE WERE MOTIVES TO OFF ANY OF THESE PEOPLE. WHAT A CLASSIC STRAW MAN!
YOU ARE DIVERTING FROM THE SUBJECT MATTER. THAT WAS NOT THE PURPOSE OF MY POST. HOW THE HELL WOULD YOU OR ANYONE ELSE KNOW WHAT OR WHO THE BIOLOGISTS KNEW? I SURE DON'T KNOW AND I DON'T CARE. I JUST CALCULATE PROBABILTIES.
Really, this is a bit disingenuous. After all, why are you conducting this analysis in the first place?

THE PURPOSE OF THE POST WAS TO QUANTIFY THE GUT FEELING THAT THESE DEATHS COULD NOT HAVE BEEN DUE TO CHANCE.Exactly. Fair enough...This implies malfeasance. And if you yourself aren't suggesting malfeasance, there are hundreds (thousands) of websites (all virtually identical...) that are.

I CAN SAY THIS: BASED ON THE ABOVE ODDS, IF THERE ARE 100,000 BIOLOGISTS OUT THERE, THEN THERE IS PROBABLY NOTHING SUSPICIOUS GOING ON. Well my personal feeling is that you need to multiply that number by a factor of at least 5, maybe even 10-15. Or remove the majority of biologists from your list of ~16.

I guess my underlying point here is that if you're going to do this type of analysis, then you should really question the vague and misleading statements and descrpitions ("world class", "microbiologists", etc.) presented on conspiracy websites. I don't have any inherent problems with this kind of statistical analysis in general if done properly (Raburrr makes some good points...). And as you mention, when you use more realistic numbers it may lead you to draw entirely different conclusions than from your first post.

Cordially,

-SM


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Lexingtonian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 04:14 AM
Response to Reply #35
44. no sale

I vaguely remember this subject coming up as a thread a few months ago with a bit less 'data', but about the same quality (if you will) of evidence.

If you look at the budget of NIH there is annual funding there for about 40,000 person-years of research activity. Throw in about half again as much in the way of private sector funding- about 60,000 person-years total. Given that a lot of clinical studies are done with partial funding of the investigators (often doctors with active clinical or private practices) you can find at least 75,000 people with academic affiliations and credentials equal to or higher than the people cited in the conspiracy theory inside the United States. I'd guess that reduces the 'odds' of what happened to under 1 period of 4 months in 5. Maybe likely during one four month period of every year (iow, 1 in 3).

Btw, I have friends who used to work in Don Wiley's laboratory. If someone is bumping off biologists, which no one actually believes, the perpetrator obviously has no clue about biology or the actual work being done by the people whose deaths are allegedly a pattern.
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TomNickell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #28
92. Sufi, you're wasting your time........
You've nailed him, but you'll never convince him.

He knows Truth.
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CHIMO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 02:32 AM
Response to Original message
33. Backing Up
Where is the reference to the stastic?
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 03:42 AM
Response to Reply #33
36. Use the link for the unnnatural death stats in my original post ..
.
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OBrien Donating Member (243 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
57. Nov.20 in Houston
a microbiolgist Robert Burghoff,45, was walking to his car, a white van jumped the curb and killed him. Hit and run. He was working on the Norwalk viurus plaguing cruise ships. Very strange indeed.
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goforit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #57
67. Here's a tinfoil hat..........
Do you think that these cruise ships of which you can practically get a free ticket on now, is being used as a guinea pig for viruses
that the gov't has been experiencing with.

The convenience of keeping it off the mainland.

:tinfoilhat:
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loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
59. TIA, I remember reading about these AS THEY HAPPENED,
on DU...we read about them one at a time, and on the old DU, I had bookmarked them, each and all. Of course, since the DU change, I can't find them now.

As each death occurred, our (fantastic) DU research team investigated the ties each scientist had to critical government research projects, and WHY each death was suspicious, at the time. Whether each was a "key" scientist (in charge of the project) or a technical researcher supporting the findings of a more senior scientist, the deaths were EXTREMELY suspicious due to the timing of their deaths and their involvement and proximity to the military/industrial complex, and "secret" government projects.

Taken as a group, there were flags going up all over the world (countries with free and NOT-SO free press). We had linked articles from many different countries, back then.

I'm not the statistician you and some others here are, but I know a trend when I see one, and there was an OBVIOUS trend...these scientists were being silenced, pure and simple.

Maybe it's our research here on DU, maybe it's the availability of info on the internet, but since the extremists started getting a free pass, I've seen way too many deaths of key people (Wellstone?) since the exterminator in chief took office.

When the mob is running a country, this is bound to happen.

:kick:


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Unknown Known Donating Member (829 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
63. Hadron - the missing link
Kelly knew Pasechnik - he and Christopher Davis debriefed Pasechnik after his defection from the Soviet Union to the UK in 1989. He worked at Porton Down with Kelly.

1991, Kelly & Davis were sent to Russia to inspect the Biopreparat facilities. They were guided by, Kanatjan Alibekov, chief of the Russian programs. Alibekov later "defected" and changed his name to Ken Alibek.

When Alibek defected to the U.S. in 1992 he underwent extensive debriefing by, among others, Davis and William Patrick ("father" of the U.S. bioweapons program and a CIA consultant). He was then rewarded with a job at BMI and became a CIA consultant. He is currently president of a subsidiary of Hadron, the defense contractor that peddled the PROMIS software to various governments (with a backdoor in the software) that resulted in an intelligence bonanza for the U.S.

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/111203_kelly_2.html

Any of you here who are familiar with the BCCI/Promis story will recognize the name Hadron (a morphed spin-off from Systematics).

There's much more to this story - it goes very deep and dirty. I had also read somewhere that Kelly and Wiley knew each other, but can't find the link right now.

Also, another very important name that doesn't get spoken much is Dr. Earl Brian - founder of Hadron, and formerly ran UPI.

In the 1980s Hadron was founded and headed by Dr. Earl Brian, a medical doctor and crony of Ronald Reagan and an associate of former Attorney General Edwin Meese. Brian was convicted in the 1980s on fraud charges. Both Hadron and Brian have been closely associated in court documents and numerous credible reports, confirmed since Sept. 11, with the theft of enhanced PROMIS software from its owner, the INSLAW Corporation.

http://fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/02_14_02_microbio.html

Here's more info on Brian from Seymour's "The Last Circle" -

http://www.lycaeum.org/books/books/last_circle/11.htm
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goforit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #63
69. It amazes me how all these relationships are so well connected.
It is such an amazing plot.

The hope I do have is that the number of people they
use and have to dispose of, is enormous and that ultimately
the sh#t will hit the fan.

It's the rule of nature that people will stand for no more, it's basic survival.
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Pobeka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
68. Can't reproduce your numbers
Edited on Sun Jan-11-04 12:45 PM by Pobeka
For example: I compute P(M) as follows...

<snip from your post>
Let p= Probability of any individual dying from UNNATURAL causes within a given year = 0.000542
Let a= Expected Number of deaths = pN
Let m= Actual Number of UNNATURAL deaths
P(m) =a**m*exp(-a)/m! or p(15)= 0.542**15*exp(-.542)/15!
</snip from your post>
--

a = 0.000542 * 5000 = 2.71
m = 1
P(m) = (2.71**1) * (exp(-2.71)) / 1!
= (2.71) * (0.0665368) / 1
= 0.180

... but you show the value being 0.933


--
I double checked my implementation of the formula against another site on the internet and was able to reproduce the numbers.



??
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #68
70. You must calculate the CUMULATIVE probability.
Edited on Sun Jan-11-04 02:12 PM by TruthIsAll
On edit:

The probability P that at least 16 deaths will occur is:
P= 1 - Sum (prob(n), where n=0,15)

For example, the probability of at least 3 deaths is:
P= 1- prob (0 deaths)- prob(EXACTLY 1 death)- prob(EXACTLY 2 deaths)
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Pobeka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #70
71. Thanks, I realized that myself while I was eating my scrambled eggs.
Doh!
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #70
72. Use the Excel Poisson function for the cum probability

For example, the probability of at least 16 deaths for a 20,000 population is given by the Excel Poisson function:

P= 1-POISSON(15,0.333*0.000542*20000,TRUE)= 1.3592086706149E-06 = 0.0000013592087

or 1 in 735,722

Note: the .333 factor is 4 months or .333 of a year.
TRUE indicates C, the cum. probability of 15 or fewer deaths.

So P= prob (of 16 or more deaths) = 1 - C

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Pobeka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #72
77. Got it. I'm matching your numbers exactly
But, I'm a programmer. Using PERL language, so I rolled my own -- only a few lines of code necessary.

Thanks!
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
73. Sufi Marmot's post pretty much make this whole thread irrelevant...
In my opinion.

don't let them get lost in the sea of crap. :)

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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #73
74. Why, because you say so?
Edited on Sun Jan-11-04 02:47 PM by TruthIsAll
And you are lost in a sea of ignorance or denial or both...
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #74
80. No, because YOU say so - in a post above :)
And also becuase it pretty clearly shows how the "limited numbers" of biologist suggested in the original post is far, far, far, far, far too narrow a number. When we quit being dishonest about the facts and suggest a far more accurate number, the odds really aren't that staggering at all.
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #80
82. I stated that I did not know this number. There was no intent to mislead.
Edited on Sun Jan-11-04 03:41 PM by TruthIsAll
Since I posted, I have read an article that states there may be 20,000 microbiologists. I should have done my homework earlier. My bad. But never, never, accuse me of trying to mislead anyone. You will never see this in any of my posts. I don't create straw men, either. If I am wrong, I will say so.

So far, no one has disputed the mathematics. I show the probabilties for up to 50,000. Pobeka has confirmed my numbers with his own Excel analysis.

The ONLY question now should be: HOW MANY MICROBIOLOGISTS ARE THERE IN THE SAME GENERAL CLASS AS THE 16 WHO DIED DURING THOSE 4 MONTHS?
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Rabrrrrrr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #82
99. TruthIsAll - no one is disputing your mathematics
Edited on Mon Jan-12-04 12:00 AM by Rabrrrrrr
How can they? It's simple probabilities, and you did the math - so far as I can tell, though I've not cross-checked with a calculator - perfectly right. It's just bloody division, and I'm sure you ran this through excel, so I'd imagine you are correct - in the mathematics as done with the numbers you began with.

What we're disputing is that your mathematics are using possibly ERRONEOUS, quite likely egregiuosly erroneous, data; and that your INTERPRETATION is possibly significantly flawed because a) you have no idea what the right numbers are, and you've admitted that you have no idea what the right numbers are, and b) you offer nothing to compare your final results against.

You are so worked about this whenever any one of us criticzes you, and yet at the same time, you keep saying that you don't care about it, you just want to offer the mathematics, and yet you also keep saying you think it's suspicious - but you've shown us nothing to make us think it's suspicious.

That's why I keep saying to you - prove your case. You have to do enough background checking and analysis that would convince an outsider. I offered up the example of a freeper, and you said "I don't care what freepers think", and that's fine. So run the numbers and come up with a case that would convince Rush Limbaugh, or the FBI, or France, or whatever the hell group that would normally NOT want to agree with you.

Only then will you have come up with a good, scientifically presented presentation and set of proofs. And if you don't care about "proving" anything, then I think you're lying, otherwise you wouldn't have started this thread in the first place.
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #99
100. Yup - exactly. This thread now gets the hide function.
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Pobeka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 02:57 PM
Response to Original message
76. Population size is very, very important.

Odds (1 in ...) of this many deaths or more occuring

Number of deaths
------------------------------------------------
Popsize 12 13 14 15 16
5000 3.73e+09 5.39e+10 8.39e+11 1.4e+13 2.49e+14
10000 2.08e+06 1.51e+07 1.18e+08 9.92e+08 8.85e+09
20000 2.61e+03 9.64e+03 3.82e+04 1.61e+05 7.26e+05
50000 4.99 7.89 13.2 23.5 44.1
100000 1.06 1.1 1.16 1.26 1.39
200000 1 1 1 1 1


If there are 100,000 or more in the field (as the post about NIH funding suggests), then mathematical analysis isn't going to show anything useful because we'd expect so many of these folks to die that an additional 16 or so that died "suspiciously" would be lost in the fuzz.

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Sufi Marmot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #76
78. So how many biology degrees have been issued in the last 30 years?
In this country, and throughout the world? I'm guessing well over 200,000 in this country alone, and many of the people on the list are from foreign countries...I actually tried to find online how many biology degrees are issued every year, but I couldn't. Maybe someone else will have better luck...

-SM
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #76
81. Exactly right. You have confirmed what I have just posted.
The sensitivity analysis shows that if there are 20,000, it is very suspicious. But if there are more than 50,000, then we can conclude nothing.

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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #76
84. Yes, but...
Edited on Sun Jan-11-04 03:49 PM by TruthIsAll
Perhaps the 16 came from a smaller subset of a larger group.
How many were involved in similar research or equivalent projects?
To just say that there are 50,000 in the field, so let's just forget it, is premature..

But I myself will not take this any further than calculating the probabilities, which you have also done.

At minimum. questions are being raised. Mathematics is a key tool in raising them.


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Pobeka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #84
86. Yes, yes.
You've raised the issue quite well. It would be inappropriate to stop here. Time for some legwork. Math is easy, research is hard ;)

A :toast: to your effort here!
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #76
93. My version
The Odds of X or more Unnatural Deaths
................1 out of...........

................12.........14..........16
Pop.
10000 ......2,637..38,585.......735,722
20000 ......102.......684.........5,933
30000 ......16.........62...........310
50000 ......5..........13............44
80000 ......1...........2.............3
100000......1...........1.............1
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Pobeka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
85. Let's be careful how we define biologists
We have TIA's original analysis. I have independently confirmed his numbers with a completely different method using the PERL programming language, not an Excel spreadsheet.

Before we go looking for the number of biologists, we have to make sure to look for the correct sub-field within biology.

For example, there are biologists who specialize in:

Wildlife
Aquatics
Ecology
...


I think, as was suggested somewhere above, that we are looking for biologists and technical people working in the field of microbiology. To me this would include people with degrees in related fields who could be working as support personnel in labs (Biochemistry, engineering, etc.) -- anyone who's in a position to have access to information related to bio-weapons projects.
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Sufi Marmot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #85
89. Well only a very small % of microbiologists work on bio-weapons
I mean, the devil is in the details, right? Are you only going to include people who worked bioterrorism/bioweapons? Then exclude Wiley (and probably everyone else except Pasechnik) from the list. Only going to include real microbiologists? Then maybe only #15 (the NASA guy) fits that criteria. The problem with this list is that includes people from an incredibly broad spectrum of research. Mostow was a doctor who published on infectious diseases, including many clinincal papers - I don't even know whether he ran his own lab or not. Que was a cell biologist/MD. The guy from Australia was, as far as I can tell, a lab tech. Holzmayer worked on designing drugs to inhibit HIV.

That's what annoys me about this whole thing - nobody is willing to dig into Pubmed to try to understand exactly what these people worked on, and whether it is reasonable to include them in a list of "microbiologists" or "bioterrorism experts". Either the list has to get a lot smaller, or the pool needs to get much larger.

-SM
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Pobeka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #89
90. Yes, the devil is in the details.
TIA just did a simple mathematical analysis. I believe it does support an effort to look for the appropriate numbers in the list or pool.
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Dude_CalmDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
87. TIA - You have the best threads at DU by far
Whenever I have the time to stop at DU I skim the latest breaking news section for a few minutes and then I hop over to General Discussion and find all your threads that I have missed since being here last. Thanks for all the time and effort you put into them.
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