Could there be a revolution in this country?

[IronLionZion]

Voting Bush out of office would be enough to satisfy me. But certain Socialist groups are calling for massive strikes and non-violent revolution to overthrow Bush if he "wins" the election. The ensuing instability may be even worse than keeping Bush in office.

Another possibility is a coup d 'etat. It would be a result of Bush screwing the soldiers too much. Many of them are in the military just for college money and have no loyalty to Bush. One renegade general could lead a battalion to take over the white house and kill off the regime. The secret service is no match against a determined team of US Army Rangers. By the time loyal armed forces arrive on the scene, the whole administration would be dead.

discuss

[emanymton]

1. Let Us Hope So

The instability will be refreshing. Non violence is a great way to go.

The groups calling for revolution in the USA are right wing super patriots with guns.

As for the secret service, they can be expected to stop any team of determined killers.

[IronLionZion]

9. well

I hate the Bush regime as much as any other patriot here, but I like stability and would be very nervous during any such revolution.

The ISO (International Socialist Organization) held a discussion here at RIT on prospect of a peaceful revolution.

The secret service? no way! What are they going to do? Whip out their pistols and fight off US Marines with M-16's? They couldn't stop one determined US Marine from killing Kennedy so how the hell can they stop a team of them from killing Bush?

[IronLionZion]

29. Are you a military man?

I'd like to hear your insights on military feelings. Friends of mine who are in ROTC officially say they support Bush and his wars but they are not in a position to dissent. I felt terrible when a few classmates were called up for service during the Iraq war and a high school friend is in the Rangers solely because he wants to kill Bin Laden.

[kentuck]

2. Your post is a small part of the revolution....

That's why it isn't televised....

[IronLionZion]

17. enlighten me on said revolution

unless you just mean winning state and local elections too

[DoNotRefill]

3. There's already been a big one...

it was called "The Civil War" or "The War of Northern Aggression", depending on where you're from.


As for a military coup, no way in hell. It's a great movie plot, but not realistic.

[Wonco_the_Sane]

4. Yeah, and monkeys might fly out my butt

where did this come from????

Dean can/should/and will win. hopefully.

[welshTerrier2]

5. are you serious ??

you think we can get people to revolt ??

we can't even get them to vote ...

[kentuck]

7. That sounds like something Jerry Rubin would have said...

:) That's funny!

[not systems]

6. I hope not.

A right-wing "revolution" is much more likely than a "socialist" one.

They are better armed and better organized and have more money.

The ballot box is the best hope to stop Bush.

If they steal the election or stage the WMD attack code red
martial law coup the last best hope will be general strike but
the press will probably take a stand for the new "normal" a
police state.

Economic disruptions will be classified as terrorism.

[RandomKoolzip]

8. I think Bush's killing of soldiers was immoral enough...

Killing the killers in revenge makes us just as immoral, IMHO...I would never ever shed blood for my political beliefs, or ANY beliefs, for that matter. I was raised and I remain a pacifist, and I refuse to commit violence of any kind. Civil Disobedience is still my preferred choice of action.

There are peaceful ways to affect political change; I will utilize those methods. I will not condone the murder of others, no matter what their wrongdoings.

[JailForBush]

13. Condoning Murder

I distinguish between practical and ethical. From a practical viewpoint, it can be dangerous to even talk about revolution. But ethics is another matter. I would never condemn an individual who murdered George W. Bush or one of his allies. They deserve far worse.

But I wouldn't recommend that people go beyond the thought stage; actually attempting such a deed would get you the death penalty, and you'd have to take out a lot of people to really change things.

Ironically, many people who talk about violent revolution haven't even made a respectable effort to change things peacefully. I've asked some of these people if they've ever run for public office. They almost unanimously laugh at me, claiming political campaigns are a big joke.

I KNOW they're a big joke - I've run for office three times. But I also know that they could be far more effective if I wasn't the only candidate speaking out.

My advice: Continue to discuss complex, provocative topics, but steer clear of deeds that will get you thrown behind bars, instead putting all your energy into Campaign 2004 - not just the presidential campaign but LOCAL campaigns. And be prepared for massive civil disobedience if Bush does steal the White House again.

Yes, Bush could declare strikes acts of terrorism. But if 5 million Americans strike, what's he going to do - throw them all in prison?

[RandomKoolzip]

19. He could declare us all "enemy combatants....."

Although the outcry against that happening from the moderates and independents would force him to rethink.

Remember: what keeps the average American from blubbering in fear and outrage is the ILLUSION of freedom. Once that illusion is stripped away (5 million strikers go to prison), middle America will not be happy.

[JailForBush]

23. True, BUT...

Many people warn against open revolt or acts of violence, claiming it will only give the federal government an excuse to suspend the Constitution, invoke martial law, etc.

But the fact is, Bush is already in a position to do that anyway - and they can even manufacture a danger to advance their agenda. For example, they could stage another terrorist attack.

So I don't completely buy into the argument that "If you do X, Bush will impose martial law." If he does impose martial and gets away with it, then at least we know the truth - that we've already lost our democracy.

Maybe that will wake up a few stupid Americans.

[RandomKoolzip]

28. Exactly.

I would put NOTHIN' past the Junta.

[JailForBush]

10. Huh?

"Voting Bush out of office would be enough to satisfy me."

You're joking, right? You don't want to kick other Republicans out of office - as well as many Democrats? You don't want to put Congress behind bars? Bring corporations to justice? Reform public education?

"But certain Socialist groups are calling for massive strikes and non-violent revolution to overthrow Bush if he "wins" the election. The ensuing instability may be even worse than keeping Bush in office."

It might be worse in the short run, but another four years of Bush could finish us off. If Americans cannot or will not take this country back from corporations by voting, then what other choices are there? We have an obligation to the world. The blood of Iraqis and Vietnamese alike are on our hands. Just as the their war crimes brought Nazi Germany and Japan to ruins, so would other nations be perfectly justified in destroying America.

"Another possibility is a coup d 'etat. It would be a result of Bush screwing the soldiers too much. Many of them are in the military just for college money and have no loyalty to Bush. One renegade general could lead a battalion to take over the white house and kill off the regime. The secret service is no match against a determined team of US Army Rangers. By the time loyal armed forces arrive on the scene, the whole administration would be dead."

I'm surprised this thread hasn't been locked - though that's exactly the kind of talk I like to hear. People need to think about the consequences of our actions - and inaction - and contemplate various desperate strategies that may be needed to escape our plight.

[IronLionZion]

14. I would love to kick out every Right-wingnut and jail every

corporate criminal. For every corrupt CEO there is probably a corrupt union boss too so they would have to go too. I actually have no problem with moderate Republicans and used to be one. I hate extremists and violence.

[Wonco_the_Sane]

16. I assume you don't represent DU feelings

By the way the last socialist revolution I heard of WAS the Nazi party.


Democracy works, Bush will lose by popular consent. Democrats will win seats back in the house and senate. Just get out and vote.

As far as messing with the military...we have an all volunteer army. That's what makes them so good at what they do.


Just vote, never pass up an opportunity for peaceful change. Vote

[RandomKoolzip]

20. The Nazis CALLED themselves "National Socialists," but they weren't

socialists at all, they were fascists. HUGE difference. I hear a lot of conservatives use this argument against welfare and other "socialist" programs, and it pisses me off. Socialist and Nazis are adherents to COMPLETELY opposite ideologies.

[Wonco_the_Sane]

24. Look up opposite

Socialist want state control, Germany and Italy did it and so did Russia.

Freedom works. Power to the people means free elections, economic freedom, free speech, freedom to protest, freedom to organize unions to fight for labor rights, freedom of religion etc etc and none of it run by the state.

True socialism, fascists, Marxist(Russia) make the state too powerful and all lead to mass murder.

No one has the right to tell you how to live.

[camero]

27. Nazis used both

they needed a thesis and anti-thesis in order to confuse the population. They had "National Socialism" but used the corporations for funding and the corporations got slave labor.

Bush seems like almost a replay.

[JailForBush]

25. What I Represent

1. Of course, I don't represent "DU feelings." I speak for myself.

2. You say the last socialist revolution was the Nazi party. What's your point - that all "socialist" revolutions are bad?

3. "Bush will win by popular consent. Democrats will win seats back in the house and senate."

I certainly hope so. God knows, they made total asses out of themselves in 2000 and 2002 and were scarcely even visible in 2003. I sure hope your preparing a Plan B.

[Wonco_the_Sane]

32. glad you speak for yourself

sorry if I got up on my hind legs there. :)

I still have trust and faith in Democracy. Any revolution from the right or left, I think would lead to less freedom.

Plan A is the only plan. Too many people don't take voting rights seriously enough. Dems just have to educate, organize, and vote.

If violence is plan B, it's makes violence OK for ALL. That is not acceptable.

[RandomKoolzip]

37. Lots of people voted in 2000 whose votes were thrown away.

Have you been following the BBV stories? It might not even matter if an overwhelming majority of voters choose a Dem, because the machines'll be rigged - possibly. Not sayin' it'll happen, just sayin'....watch out.

Just throwing out possibilities here......Not flaming you, I believe Civil Disobedience and voting are the best strategy to win.

[IronLionZion]

11. I am not advocating any revolution. I just wanted to discuss the possibili

I hope Ashcroft's boys don't come after me for posting this!

[JailForBush]

15. I wish THOUSANDS of people would make provocative statements

such as yours. The greater the number who speak out, the safer it is to speak out.

It's very important to push the envelope, if only to keep the 1st Amendment alive.

[IronLionZion]

21. true "there ought to be limits to freedom" -W

W said he wanted to limit criticism against him. A post like mine could be very dangerous. He can stop a few of us but he can't stop all of us!

[thebaghwan]

36. I agree with you! Please post names of orgs supporting general strikes!!

I would like to know the names of organizations that support general strikes to get rid of Bush.

[IronLionZion]

39. Uh the ISO held a discussion on that here at RIT

I don't know if anyone will actually go through with it. A big reason people don't strike is because they need to eat and there are plenty of replacements just waiting to be hired.

[hellhathnofury]

12. No. A nice and orderly impeachment.

[raifield]

18. There won't be

In my opinion anyway. After taking a few philosphy classes, mixed in with some politics and a literature course, I've come to the the conclusion that we are indeed in a Brave New World, with a little Farenheit 451 mixed in.

The average American doesn't give a shit. The media tells the average American what to think.

Read and repeat that out loud, then in your head a few times.

I remember reading a post by someone on a totally different board about the video of the Apache helicopter. One post that stuck in my head was a detailed discussion of the "splatter" when one of the Iraqis got shot with the 30mm and another on the physics of a 30mm shell passing through an engine block and into a body.

That's your average voter, if indeed the person votes at all. They don't want to know, don't need to know, and never will know anything outside of what they are told to know. Peroid. That's the truth of it these days, literally.

That's why I do think, honestly and totally, that if Bush does win another term, it would spell a complete end to America as we know it. The administration could continue to raise the bar for unbelievability, to the point where the public becomes indifferent to it and a police state fails to raise an eyebrow.

Think about it. We are quickly approaching 500 deaths in Iraqi. Forty years ago that would be enough to send people into the streets. Nowadays it doesn't even quicken the pulse becaues it's out of sight and therefore, out of mind.

[KG]

22. not enough unemployed, starving people on the streets.....yet

[Snappy]

26. A few months to go.

I have thought about this, as well. If Dubya the Dense and his gang of Thieves does win, there may be social upheaval. There are strong feelings now. The Middle Class,apolitical, will do as they did during the Vietnam protests, nothing. The Left and Right will clash in the streets. Libertarians and real Conservatives will be supportive of a recount.

I am hoping that the recent revalations will expand and that the American public will shun the Neo-Fascist grasp for re-election. Perhaps, VP Cheney will be prosecuted. Maybe there will be a meltdown in the Neo-fascist regime.

In my view, America will be Amerika if the Dems don't win.

[GOPFighter]

30. Huh?

I don't think there are enough dedicated people in the country to stage massive strikes, if it failed we'd look pretty foolosh. As for non-violent revolution, the only non-violent revolution I can imagine is through the ballot box.

If the majority of Americans vote for Bush, we deserve the screwing we'll get.

[thebaghwan]

40. I don't buy your line of thinking, the majority of people did not vote for

Bush in 2000. If Bush and his cronies get reelected there needs to be social upheaval to get rid of Bush. As to the average American, they are to busy figuring out what kind of latte to get.

People's lives and basic rights are at stake here!!!

[Kazak]

31. On a semi-unrelated note...

How about another million man march...if literally millions of people all congregated around the White House...surrounding it peacfully...the worlds largest sit-in...food and water could be shipped in from the rear to prolong such an action. Would this be possible/effective?

[IronLionZion]

33. It's very possible

the only effect would be to get attention. There is nothing we can do to gently persuade the regime to leave. They must be kicked out. Impeachment would be glorious! But I would be happy with voting the bums out in November. We simply must get enough patriots out there to vote.

I throw the term patriot around because my opinion is that a true patriot would be against Bush regardless of being liberal or conservative. Bush is not a problem for liberals, but rather a problem for America and even the world.

[spanone]

34. If there's enough support for coup, just vote the prick out!

[IronLionZion]

38. What? There doesn't have to be any support for a coup!

All it takes is like 100 determined marines.

Just look at Musharraf in Pakistan. Have you forgotten or just don't care? The general just marched in and took power then he changed the members of the High Court and put his supporters in, then the assholes validated his coup and he is still there! He is hated in his country even more than Bush and they try to kill him like once a week. Whoever controls armed forces can control a country if they wanted too.

scary...very scary

[PaDUer]

42. Vote the P----out

we never voted him in. He was selected by the SC, and something tells me * is just along for the ride at our expense w/ pickles, no more pretzels!
I'm certain you're familiar with their main group and are probably members of these groups..however, enough is enough, and something must be done. The groups should all work together against these goons because we're aware of what they're capable of. I never thought I'd ever see this country as it is now. Matter of fact, some of these people are members here at DU.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CLG_Revolution_Tactics/?yguid=155862942
We all know * didn't win the election, and I have a strong feeling this last election for state governors wasn't all legal either..Too many oddities with numbers. I have a feeling that the governors who won, were hand picked, and as Bev from BBV has proven, things didn't add up. The longer we sit and talk about this, the more they're going ahead with their antics and we know they don't give a shit about the people.

[yellowdawgdem]

35. dissent

The reason why people aren't in the streets protesting and raising hell over what is happening is because it is no longer a safe thing to do. Protesters are shot at with rubber bullets, or otherwise injured, and any kind of dissent will be clamped down on with an iron hand. I think that all kinds of dissent are necessary, but one that has been overlooked is what we spend our money on. If huge groups of people organized, and decided to boycott certain companies, I believe that would help a great deal. but doing something, anything, to protest, seems important right now.

[camero]

41. A bigger thing would be a general strike

save up a weeks pay and just don't go to work and shut the country down.

[FDRrocks]

43. Yup...

Yes. I won't participate in it. But the country just gets more and more polarized.

[Insider]

44. cheney-patriot act-fema

they locked those pieces in place soooo quickly. they won't let it happen.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Moderator]

46. I'm locking ths thread.

"Please do not post messages or jokes that could be construed as advocating harm or death to the president, or that could be construed as advocating violent overthrow of the government of the United States. The Secret Service is not known for its sense of humor."