There is still a huge divide that we are up against...

[vi5]

Carrying this over inspired by another thread relating to this O'Neill thing and people's shock and surprise that he said he would vote for Bush again.

We really need to all face the fact that the leap we are counting on people taking is huuuuuuge. Just because a person or group or whatever is disenchanted with something bush* does, did, or may do....just because someone expresses dissatisfaction at this administration....that is still a looooooooooong long long long way from them not voting for him or voting for a dem candidate.

There were numerous times during the Clinton administration where I was pissed off, upset, dissapointed, and ranted publicly about it. And I'm sure I'm not the only one on here who can say that. But there was never even a passing thought in my mind of voting republican, or of not voting. The leap from me not caring for the Clinton administration or some of their actions to voting for a republican or not voting at all made the Grand Canyon look tiny. It would never happen no matter how much I ranted and no matter how pissed off I was.

We are facing that same thing right now, and relying on quite a bit of false hope I fear. And this O'Neill thing and his interview this morning on the Today show simply solidifies my feelings on this.

Doesn't mean I've given up and doesn't mean I won't fight. It just means we've got to let go of the false hope and talk of "conversions" and turning tides because it just ain't happening.

[el_gato]

1. we don't need republicans so much as we have to strengthen

our own side to the point that we can fight back effectively

[vi5]

4. Well judging by all the talk of...

"I won't vote for this or that candidate because they did something I don't like once" that AIN'T happening any time soon.

[JuniorPlankton]

2. Could't agree more

The crowd at DU is, how should I put it, a bit biased :)
There is a lot of wishful thinking going on.

[cprise]

3. How many Americans want to see Social Security "transformed"

...as O'Neil creepily puts it.

Faced with the facts, I'd say very few. The problem is cutting through the media spin.

[PATRICK]

5. Complicity of Bush supporters

varies mostly by degrees down to the most simpleminded and uninformed who STILL, I believe have a gut feeling of the wrongness, but simply can't imagine reacting as we would. It is alarming to see so many justifying the wrongs, not simply disbelieving them. This is a vast moral failing no one likes to see in a society. Vietnam did that kind of polarizing as well and other challenges I have lived through saw people in denial become spitefully complicit in wrongs.

Contrition and change are nearly miraculous things and witness the incredible stories of those who did, but nonetheless no one completely is unscarred by old ways and thoughts. people hate to admit they were wrong, even less that they were fooled, and dislike intensely those who prove it or those who let it happen- more than the deceivers.

The general human weakness, that black hole we see but don't see is very soundly described in the Jewish scriptures as "missing the mark" or what Christians constantly fail to appreciate about "the narrow path". It is an achingly common failure of will, goodness and judgment alleviated only by self blindness, no matter what the consequences of living like that are.

And we here are not perfect role models either. Few if any humans are, so it is not a question of judgment but getting the best out of humanity for everyone's sakes.