LOL! This is a photo of the 'weapons cache' allegedly containing

[radwriter0555]

WMDS, or some sort of blistering agent...



Now, I gotta tell ya, looks to me like some trash that got left behind on a sand dune, not exactly some secret weapons stash hidden away for future use.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/040113/481/bag11001131814&e=2&ncid=1479

[skypilot]

1. It sure looks as though...

...it can be activated within "45 minutes".

[Skittles]

2. I CAN ENVISION A MUSHROOM CLOUD

YES INDEED.

[Richardo]

7. May I request that you go kick Condi's ass for that idiotic remark...

...I'll buy the drinks. :-)

[Skittles]

41. CONDI IS A NASTY PIECE OF WORK

A TOTAL BUSH WHORE

[progressiverealist]

44. Condi is totally out of her element

She's an expert on a defunct regime (the Soviet Union) and she knows little more than thye average Jane or Joe about the current global situation.

[slackmaster]

3. I don't see anything to provide scale

That could be a 30-caliber rifle bullet sitting on the ground in someones heel print, and the entire area of the frame about 3 x 4 inches.

[radwriter0555]

4. A 120 mm mortar shell is about 8 inches across.. which is rather

substantial.

HOWEVER, given that these are rusted, muddy, caked with filth, and pre-dating 1988, I ain't all that worried about em.

[Silverhair]

10. Do the metric conversion again please.

25.4 mm = one inch. 120 divided by 25.4 = 4.72inches.

Aside from that, the photo tells us very little. I haven't heard yet if the chemical inside was really blister agent or not.

If, (And that is a big if) the chemical inside is indeed blister agent then this is a serious find. The problem isn't the condition of the shells themselves, but the chemical inside.

The poster who is saying they can't be fired from there to the U.S. is showing his extreme stupidity. They can easily be smuggled into the USA, and detonated w/o being fired. Then a cloud of poison gas would be released. That would be a serious attack indeed.

If we are going to be taken seriously in the debate on this, we will have to stop the bullshit sarcasm.

I am also very interested in how the Danish troops found these shells. They had been buried for ten years. Did they somehow just find them? I find that improbable. More likely, somebody showed them where the shells were. That could mean the Iraqis, not that Saddam is captured, are beginning to talk.

Of course, all of that is IF the shells do contain an agent. If they don't, then it is a nothing find.

[radwriter0555]

11. I was using GOP math of course.

Sorry.

[fernandovaz]

39. lol

[radwriter0555]

12. BUT the shells pre-date 1988 and were used specifically in the conflict

that Iran had with Iraq.

These are completely and utterly irrelevent and have nothing to do with WMDS or any imagined or even perceived threat by Iraq against the USA.

I got mustard in my fridge that's more dangerous than the leftovers in those rusted out old shells.

[skypilot]

15. Silverhair, I think you're a bit harsh.

"Extreme stupidity"? "Bullshit sarcasm"?

The poster who doubted that these shells could be fired at the U.S. may simply have not thought of the scenario you described but that doesn't make the poster "stupid", let alone extremely so. As for "bullshit sarcasm", there's plenty of room for that on this board. There are serious comments, angry, impassioned comments and, of course, the sarcastic ones. Bullshit sarcasm is hard to resist when we've been pummelled with bullshit almost daily for tha past 3 years. Not trying to start an argument, I just think we'll also be taken more seriously if we don't start lashing out at each other.

[Silverhair]

25. WMD's are a very serious subject. Damn serious.

If we want to be taken seriously in the debate, we don't have room for silliness.

Smuggling the shells into the USA may seem far fetched, but a few years ago, the idea of kamikazing a hijacked airliner into the WTC towers was far fetched too.

The primary issue in the coming election is going to be National Security. If we treat that topic as a joke, the joke will be on us in the voting booths.

I am very interested in learning if that was actually a blister agent in those shells. The condition of the shells is completely irrelevant. The condition of the contents is everything.

[Nihil]

29. The condition of the shells is not irrelevant

Anyone trying to smuggle shells in that condition ARE "kamikazing"
(to use your phrase). They are corroded and unreliable - either for
"not exploding until we arrive" or for "exploding once we arrive".

If you wanted to use such a weapon in the US, your best bet is to
make or steal it there, not to transport it across international
borders. Mustard gas is nowhere near as difficult to manufacture
as the other hysterical threats we've had trumpeted at us over the
last few years. Dispersal is just as tricky (or easy) as for any
other agent but the weapon would work as a "terrorist" device simply
because a few, coincident releases would not only cause panic in the
vicinity but would cause untold disruption in cities across the entire
country.

Nihil

[Silverhair]

35. The agent is the critical thing.

It could be removed from the shells and placed in another delivery device.

It is true that basic Mustard gas isn't that hard to make. I am surprised that it hasn't been done already by terrorists. Sarin is another story. Also, some of the variations of blister agents that make them more effective may be difficult to make.

I still haven't heard if there really was blister agent in the shells. The field tests are designed to err strongly on the side of a positive reaction, which causes false positives.

I am somewhat distressed by the fact that so many here place partisan politics above a serious issue. I strongly suspect that for most of the posters, it doesn't matter what the facts are about the find. All that matters to them is that the find tends to help Bush so it must be discredited, no matter what the facts may be. For me, WMD are so serious that they are outside of partisanship. We must first find out if they really did have blister agent - then go from there. If it happens to help Bush - well, that's the breaks - but we need facts first.

[0007]

43. Sargent Schultz is not laughing and is taking this very serious

Very curious? Yes indeed! Sgt. Schultz also agrees that field test are sometimes in err on the side of a positive reaction, which causes false positives, WTF!!

WMD are very serious and should not be taken lightly. Specially when made in the U.S. and found on foregin soil. Cuz those shells when idenified will reveal the maker.

[RapidCreek]

30. Don't need to smuggle a damn thing

and suggesting that one would IS stupid. Quite a bit easier to make the gas right here in the good ole USA.
RC

[Silverhair]

36. Depends on the variety of the agent.

Basic Mustard gas is fairly easy to make. Some of the nastier variants may not be. That's why we need facts first about whatever is found, before attacking the find.

[RapidCreek]

37. Here are some facts you might be interested in.

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Jan1996/b012496_bt024-96.html

http://www.nti.org/d_newswire/issues/2002/3/25/8s.html

http://www.idds.org/acr2003/704e1CWC02.html

http://www.mindfully.org/Air/2003/Army-Chemical-Weapons26aug03.htm

Funny don't you think....that the US is so interested in everyone else's chemical weapons stockpiles when we have one of the largest in the world and lack the apparent ability to 'destroy' them with nearly the efficacy of Saddam Hussein?

It's interesting that we don't see photos of these stockpiles on the evening news with the same regularity that we see rusted shells, aluminum pipes and weather balloon filling stations decaying on the sands of Iraqi deserts.

RC

[DoYouEverWonder]

38. No Chemical Agent in Iraq Mortar Shells

http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/world/7708636.htm

CAMP EDEN, Iraq - Tests by Danish and American experts indicate there is no chemical warfare agent in mortar shells unearthed in southern Iraq, but conclusive word will only come from a lab in Idaho. Earlier examinations had indicated a blister agent was in the shells, which apparently date to the Iran-Iraq war of the 1980s.

The U.S.-led Iraq Survey Group conducted tests on five of 36 shells found Friday and all came up negative, the Danish army said Wednesday in a statement from Copenhagen. Those results contradicted Danish and British field tests that were positive for a blister agent.

"Based on the tests, the experts conclude that none of the shells contain chemical warfare agents," the Danish army statement said, adding that more studies are needed for final confirmation.


Now, please stop taking life so seriously. All you are doing is helping Bu$hCo spread their disinformation. So far, the Bu$h team is batting zero for zero on this topic. Most your fear is misdirected. These shells, even if once upon a time they contained some chemical agent were obviously useless at this point. Besides if someone wanted to launch a chemical attack in the US, I doubt if they would go to the Iraqi desert to dig up old rusted out shells. Much easier just to go the local grocery and hardware store and legitimately buy enough stuff to pull off an attack similar to the one on the Murrah Office Building.

[MadHound]

19. An even bigger IF

As in IF the chemicals inside these shells haven't degraded to the point where they've been rendered inert. Face it, these rounds have been buried for at least fifteen years. A lot of chemicals used in WMD, especially if they are exposed to air(oxidation) or mixed with other chemicals, generally have degraded to the point where any effectiveness is gone. I suspect that this has happened with these rounds. Instead of digging up WMD, the US has more than likely dug up a toxic waste site.

[radwriter0555]

20. And these were found by Danish ENGINEERS, not any sort of folks who were

looking for WMDS.

And what were Danish Engineers doing in Iraq?

[brainshrub]

42. Makeing pastries for troops. (nt)

[Silverhair]

22. Entirely possible. That's why I said, "IF".

That's why we really need more info before we can have an intelligent discussion. Mustard gas does stay potent for a damn long time. I remember reading a story in the 1970's of a French farmer who was plowing a field and hit a pocket of gas from WWI, and was killed. It would be interesting if someone that has special knowledge of gases could post. I don't have the time now to do the research online.

[Nihil]

33. Regarding the durability of mustard gas ...

A few snippets I found out there ...

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWmustard.htm
---
Mustard Gas (Yperite) was first used by the German Army in September 1917.
The most lethal of all the poisonous chemicals used during the war,
it was almost odourless and took twelve hours to take effect. Yperite
was so powerful that only small amounts had to be added to high
explosive shells to be effective. Once in the soil, mustard gas
remained active for several weeks.
---


http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/kylet1/gas.htm
---
... the damage caused depended on two factors, the concentration of
the gas and the length of exposure. The table below gives an indication:


Concentration Exposure Effects
(ppm) (mins)
0.1 10 First damages (eyes, skin)
1.0 60 Serious lung damage
10 60 Dangerous to life
100 10 Lethal within hours

---
(Wish this interface understood HTML table commands...)


http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustard_gas
---
Shells containing mustard gas and other toxic ammunition from WW I
(as well as conventional explosives) can still occasionally be found
in France; they used to be disposed of by explosion at sea, but
current environmental regulations prohibit this; the French government
is building an automated factory to dispose of the backlog of shells.
---


http://www.bris.ac.uk/Depts/Chemistry/MOTM/mustard/mustard.htm
---
Despite the ease of hydrolysis, mustard gas in its solid form has
been found to last underground for up to ten years.
---


Nihil

[Spentastic]

32. Pots and kettles

"The poster who is saying they can't be fired from there to the U.S. is showing his extreme stupidity. "

No, they are not. They are entirely correct. These shells cannot be FIRED from there to the U.S. This is certainly what the U.S administration was inferring when they were at the U.N selling their war.

Shells are designed to be fired. If terrorists wished to utilise chem weapons, they'd have to be idiots to carry easily identifiable shells about.

This find is a further indictment of Bush's policy. With foreign fighters in country is it now more or less likely that a terrorist will find these weapons and distribute them? It would appear that they are just lying around unguarded.

Furthermore, the condition of the shells does affect their viability. If the casings are intact the agent may have remained active. There appears to be little information regarding degradation time. However, if the shells are compromised it is likely that there is no viable agent contained.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

5. Even worse!

It appears these missiles are indeed ready to be launched (somehow) over the Atlantic and land in New York City tomorrow!!!

[Walt Starr]

6. OMFG!!! Saddam Hussein had toxic waste disposal problems

not nearly as bad as our own U.S. government!

That wouldn't have even come close to being a superfund site in our most dilligent of cleanup periods!

[NNN0LHI]

8. Don't laugh. You should see some of our own abandoned military bases

[Ganja Ninja]

17. Don’t laugh.

Save it for when Bush tries to use this as evidence of Sadam’s WMD in the STOU.

[Uzybone]

9. Praise be to Bush

I piss my pants in fear of what those rusted mud clogged things could have done to me and my family!!!!

[arcane1]

13. I'm rating this a "5"

if people don't actually SEE these damned things, the repubes will have them believing they found poison-filled ICBM's

[underpants]

14. It doesn't even look like it can kill the weeds.

Deadly!

[Cocoa]

16. the world's worst dictator

with the world's dustiest weapons.

[RedEarth]

18. LOL......vivid evidence of why we went to war!!!!!.........

This is really turning into a freakiing comedy.........bring the troops home bush!!!!

[maggrwaggr]

21. looks like where I'd go quail hunting in Ft. Sill Oklahoma

no joke, if you were in the military you could go hunting up in the boonies of Ft. Sill which was used as an artillery testing ground. There were old bombs and missles and rockets sticking out of the ground everywhere.

We were told not to touch anything. Of course, as boys, we did anyway. I remember playing catch with something that turned out to be some kind of a smoke grenade. Also found an empty hand-grenade which was thought was COOL. Empty bazooka tubes were hot items as well.

[thingfish]

23. The horror... the horror.

ECK! I swallowed a bug!

[TeeYiYi]

24. Where the hell did they dredge that up? . . .

. . . it looks like it's been under water. I think it has. That looks like a semi-dry lake bed suffering the effects of a drought. See the water in the foreground? And are those dead birds in the background? Perhaps one live and one dead. . .

What an obvious garbage dump. S_C_A_R_Y

TYY

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

26. looks like something that fell out of the Crypt-Keepers ear

It's a shame. We probably sold those to them

[are_we_united_yet]

27. Wow.

Glad I got W protecting me

[Ksec]

28. Jeebus. I have seen a whole pile of WMD in the local dump

LOL Wow, how pathetic . Didnt Iraqis tell them they buried them according to instructions from inspectors during the inspections? Now they dig them up and use them as evidence today????? LOL

[Nihil]

31. Toxic waste tip

Not the sort of thing you want to put a JCB into ...

I doubt that the devices shown here could be used for an attack but
they would still prove a hazard for anyone nearby ... possibly the
reason why they were "found" again?

Whilst I recognise that there is a 70+ year difference in age of the
shells, the following articles show how old mustard gas & phosgene
shells were viewed in France, April 2001:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1281262.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1278614.stm

In addition, the British Army had to clear a large number of houses
on the Hampshire/Berkshire border a few years ago when a forgotten
stash of mustard gas ordinance was re-discovered, excavated and moved
to a suitable place for decontamination.

Nihil

[arwalden]

34. That's IT? Are They FUCKING KIDDING?? Our men and women DIED FOR THIS??

This and that ballpoint-pen sketch on a steno-pad is the extend of the WMD program and WMD stockpile and the WMD 45-minutes-to-Armageddon that we've been hearing so much about.

Our men and women DIED FOR THIS?? Civilians DIED FOR THIS??

I had no idea that I was capable of feeling such hatred for any one individual... or toward any one group of people.

It's times like THIS that I wish I wasn't an atheist. Why? --- Because I would get a great deal of comfort in believing that Bush* would pay for his crimes in a burning lake-of-fire. If there was any person more deserving for the concept of a burning-hell... it's Bush*.

-- Allen

[0007]

40. I understand that FAUX News was absolutely sure that this was the

smoking gun?